a request for the cap on autoattack dmg in pvp

[TheLastB]

with the introduction of slower and slower weapons a large portion of the melee community are now hitting for totally out of whack numbers with just autoattack.

in the last few days Ive been hit for up to 1500 on chain armor and heard of clothies getting upwards of 3000 hits. after having a fight I'll examine the log and see what went right or wrong depending on the result and I can honestly say I have been decapped or ice nova'd for less than auto attack dmg does now.

when the toning down of the big hits was done everyone rejoiced - there were a few cries - but overall everyone agreed that the changes were necessary in order for pvp to evolve into something that was a more even playing field....and to a large degree this has happened - mages can actually stand a chance.....but with the introduction of ROK and the plethora of slow hard hitting weapons out there now the unbalance is getting serious.

the discrepancy between mage and melee dps is already blatant when you look at a raid parse. A mage will stack up on proc gear max int etc etc and depending on the class parse relatively well..but they work for their dmg.....you'll probably see a total of like 20% of their dmg come from procs/buffs/whatnots. If you look at a scout or tank parse a good 50% of their dmg comes from autoattack/poisons/buffs (I call this freemans dmg). quite saddening to look at a parse and see a dirge with (insert uber bow here) has the largest hit from a raid...or you look and see 10k autoattacks from an SK when his largest CA can only do that on a 15min timer........the inbalance is getting worse and worse.........and needs to be looked into again.

I'll undoubtably get flamed for this but IDK..........

 Its my new years wish..........

[Elephanton]

T8 autoattack with ROK gear is simply crazy...

[Roald]

Auto attacks are just another thing that give melee classes an edge in PvP. I know ranger that have simply clicked auto attack and then gone and picked up a token. I've seen a zerker do over 7k damage in 4 seconds, at least 700 dps purely from auto attack.

[Dh]

Autoattacks shouldn't crit... its free damage anyway =P

[Urgol]

it SHOUL crit in pve, but in pvp say good-bye to auto attack crits...for scuots and fighters only. My melee mystic feels OK with his Vrak club.

[Vydar]

I've auto attacked for the HIGHEST in pvp at 2200... but my biggest attack, and that's with +250 combat art damage, is 700 in pvp.  I have a 6 second delay weapon, which means with haste I get to swing again in about 3.5-4 seconds... which usually means I get to auto attack twice.  Normal auto attack for me in PvP is somewhere around 800-1200 range... every 3-4 seconds.  So... take away my auto attack, take away my dps.  Even in PVE, that's how berserkers do anything.Find something else to cry about for balance, NOT the one thing we get for dps.  Berserkers and Guardians finally stand a chance in PvP in endgame, and now people want to cry about the classes who haven't seen love in a long time.

[Vydar]

Oh, and if you wanna cry about DPS in pvp being stupid...Try Fission critt'ing for 8k on 3 people.  Or Ice Nova hitting for over 10k several times.  I put on my cold resist gear and my defensive stance, so I had over 12k cold resist... got hit for 6k.  Upheaval hitting 4 people for over 4k each.  I'm sorry, but win buttons > my puny 1500 auto attack once every couple of seconds.

[Roald]

Vydar@Vox wrote:

I've auto attacked for the HIGHEST in pvp at 2200... but my biggest attack, and that's with +250 combat art damage, is 700 in pvp.  I have a 6 second delay weapon, which means with haste I get to swing again in about 3.5-4 seconds... which usually means I get to auto attack twice.  Normal auto attack for me in PvP is somewhere around 800-1200 range... every 3-4 seconds.  So... take away my auto attack, take away my dps.  Even in PVE, that's how berserkers do anything.Find something else to cry about for balance, NOT the one thing we get for dps.  Berserkers and Guardians finally stand a chance in PvP in endgame, and now people want to cry about the classes who haven't seen love in a long time.

Thats odd, because I've seen an 80 beserker do over 4k damage using only 2 CAs. Are you still using T7 spells?

[Vydar]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

I've auto attacked for the HIGHEST in pvp at 2200... but my biggest attack, and that's with +250 combat art damage, is 700 in pvp.  I have a 6 second delay weapon, which means with haste I get to swing again in about 3.5-4 seconds... which usually means I get to auto attack twice.  Normal auto attack for me in PvP is somewhere around 800-1200 range... every 3-4 seconds.  So... take away my auto attack, take away my dps.  Even in PVE, that's how berserkers do anything.Find something else to cry about for balance, NOT the one thing we get for dps.  Berserkers and Guardians finally stand a chance in PvP in endgame, and now people want to cry about the classes who haven't seen love in a long time.

Thats odd, because I've seen an 80 beserker do over 4k damage using only 2 CAs. Are you still using T7 spells?

Nope.  I have over 800 str and 9 t8 masters already.  And use Executioner's Wrath for 100% melee crit.  ONE of our attacks looks like it hits 3 times, Frenzied hits.  If it lands the first time, it has a chance to hit again, and again.  My very largest attack is a 3 second ae, I have it mastered, and aa points into it, and +250 combat art damage, and it says it hits for 1700 in pvp.  With a crit, that MIGHT hit for 2200.If you saw only two ca's, I want to know what steroids this berserker is on.

[Vydar]

And as for raiding... any raiding melee class knows that their auto attack damage is a HUGE chunk of their dps, and the only way in which they can even compete.  Plus, it isn't "free" damage.  If you are worth your salt as a raider, you know how to time your auto attack and MUST time it properly to maximize their dps.  Rather than just button mash in order of combos, we must also watch our auto attack and time it perfectly so as not to lose more damage.Casters can nuke for [Removed for Content] amounts, melee'rs get to auto attack.  Fair trade off.

[Enduro3]

I think the poster was mostly meaning rogues, since they seem to kill anyone in 8 seconds or less anymore.  My mystic maybe has a chance to cast a ward, before I am dead.

[Roald]

Vydar@Vox wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

I've auto attacked for the HIGHEST in pvp at 2200... but my biggest attack, and that's with +250 combat art damage, is 700 in pvp.  I have a 6 second delay weapon, which means with haste I get to swing again in about 3.5-4 seconds... which usually means I get to auto attack twice.  Normal auto attack for me in PvP is somewhere around 800-1200 range... every 3-4 seconds.  So... take away my auto attack, take away my dps.  Even in PVE, that's how berserkers do anything.Find something else to cry about for balance, NOT the one thing we get for dps.  Berserkers and Guardians finally stand a chance in PvP in endgame, and now people want to cry about the classes who haven't seen love in a long time.

Thats odd, because I've seen an 80 beserker do over 4k damage using only 2 CAs. Are you still using T7 spells?

Nope.  I have over 800 str and 9 t8 masters already.  And use Executioner's Wrath for 100% melee crit.  ONE of our attacks looks like it hits 3 times, Frenzied hits.  If it lands the first time, it has a chance to hit again, and again.  My very largest attack is a 3 second ae, I have it mastered, and aa points into it, and +250 combat art damage, and it says it hits for 1700 in pvp.  With a crit, that MIGHT hit for 2200.If you saw only two ca's, I want to know what steroids this berserker is on.

After checking logs:

Frenzied hits for: 630/871/600 = 2103 damage, non crit

Ram for: 1983 crit

This was about 20 days ago, so i doubt these were masters, or that the zerker was well geared yet. The guy he was attacking was a level 80 swashie, so had high mit. Im guessing with both critting against a clothie they could hit for over 5k.

But back on the auto attack topic, he was also auto attacking for around 1030 on a crit. That's about 15% of a T8 mages life gone every, what?, 2 seconds?

[MaCloud1032]

I wanna see this 10k melee from a sk personaly.  Any other melee class i wouldnt question but being a sk we are not a melee class.  In a raid my melee is about 15-20% of my dps one spell i use does 30%.

[Vydar]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

I've auto attacked for the HIGHEST in pvp at 2200... but my biggest attack, and that's with +250 combat art damage, is 700 in pvp.  I have a 6 second delay weapon, which means with haste I get to swing again in about 3.5-4 seconds... which usually means I get to auto attack twice.  Normal auto attack for me in PvP is somewhere around 800-1200 range... every 3-4 seconds.  So... take away my auto attack, take away my dps.  Even in PVE, that's how berserkers do anything.Find something else to cry about for balance, NOT the one thing we get for dps.  Berserkers and Guardians finally stand a chance in PvP in endgame, and now people want to cry about the classes who haven't seen love in a long time.

Thats odd, because I've seen an 80 beserker do over 4k damage using only 2 CAs. Are you still using T7 spells?

Nope.  I have over 800 str and 9 t8 masters already.  And use Executioner's Wrath for 100% melee crit.  ONE of our attacks looks like it hits 3 times, Frenzied hits.  If it lands the first time, it has a chance to hit again, and again.  My very largest attack is a 3 second ae, I have it mastered, and aa points into it, and +250 combat art damage, and it says it hits for 1700 in pvp.  With a crit, that MIGHT hit for 2200.If you saw only two ca's, I want to know what steroids this berserker is on.

After checking logs:

Frenzied hits for: 630/871/600 = 2103 damage, non crit

Ram for: 1983 crit

This was about 20 days ago, so i doubt these were masters, or that the zerker was well geared yet. The guy he was attacking was a level 70 swashie, so had high mit. Im guessing with both critting against a clothie they could hit for over 5k.

But back on the auto attack topic, he was also auto attacking for around 1030 on a crit. That's about 15% of a T8 mages life gone every, what?, 2 seconds?

Mm... I can see Ram hitting that high if he has a lot of +ca damage, was fighting someone without a whole lotta mit, and it crit.  I've yet to see Frenzied hits hit that high personally.Check on a Berserker fighting an equal leveled toon, not fighting a level 70.And no, its not 2 seconds.  To auto attack for that much, he's wearing Nathsar Shortsword or Carotidcutter or Anaphlaxyis.  And anyone of these three is on a 4 second + delay, Nathsar on a six.  Even with haste, and berserker haste proc, and our haste temp buff, I've never seen it swing that fast.  We do get about 70% chance to double attack with gear though.TBH, I'm glad Warriors finally got some lovin, and that a plate tank can finally stand up to a scout.  The fastest I've killed anyone was a 4 second fight against a level 73 necromancer exile, I'm an 80 berserker in pretty good gear, about 800 str, +250 ca damage, etc.  He got 3 shotted.  Would have been two shotted if I had known for sure it was a summoner and not a wizzy with evac. 

[Xunen]

That's the same thing we had from ranged auto attack in KoS, and I knew that people will complain about that soon. Easy solution, just reduce the delay for autoattack in PvP, as you did with ranged autoattack. Problem solved.

[Vydar]

Xunen wrote:

That's the same thing we had from ranged auto attack in KoS, and I knew that people will complain about that soon. Easy solution, just reduce the delay for autoattack in PvP, as you did with ranged autoattack. Problem solved.

Mmm... I don't think its a big deal as people cry about it being.Bows= out of range of attacking, possibly sight.  Melee weapons= you had plenty of time to see them coming.

[G1Joe]

The OP isnt just crying tbh he has a 79 Brig and a 80 Lock not to mention 70+SK and Fury

All I believe he is saying is that Auto shouldnt equal 50% of a melee's damage on a raid. (he is crying a bit as his lock is getting pwned on parses by melee now rofl)

If CA's and in SK case spells were increased to keep the output fairly near to current numbers fine but they shouldnt be able to churn out the kind of numbers for nothing as we are seeing in ROK atm.

[Vydar]

G1Joe wrote:

The OP isnt just crying tbh he has a 79 Brig and a 80 Lock not to mention 70+SK and Fury

All I believe he is saying is that Auto shouldnt equal 50% of a melee's damage on a raid. (he is crying a bit as his lock is getting pwned on parses by melee now rofl)

If CA's and in SK case spells were increased to keep the output fairly near to current numbers fine but they shouldnt be able to churn out the kind of numbers for nothing as we are seeing in ROK atm.

So what should melee classe's damage be based off of?  Some of us don't get 10k ca's like Assassins.That makes no sense to even request that.

[Roald]

Vydar@Vox wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:snip

Nope.  I have over 800 str and 9 t8 masters already.  And use Executioner's Wrath for 100% melee crit.  ONE of our attacks looks like it hits 3 times, Frenzied hits.  If it lands the first time, it has a chance to hit again, and again.  My very largest attack is a 3 second ae, I have it mastered, and aa points into it, and +250 combat art damage, and it says it hits for 1700 in pvp.  With a crit, that MIGHT hit for 2200.If you saw only two ca's, I want to know what steroids this berserker is on.

After checking logs:

Frenzied hits for: 630/871/600 = 2103 damage, non crit

Ram for: 1983 crit

This was about 20 days ago, so i doubt these were masters, or that the zerker was well geared yet. The guy he was attacking was a level 70 swashie, so had high mit. Im guessing with both critting against a clothie they could hit for over 5k.

But back on the auto attack topic, he was also auto attacking for around 1030 on a crit. That's about 15% of a T8 mages life gone every, what?, 2 seconds?

Mm... I can see Ram hitting that high if he has a lot of +ca damage, was fighting someone without a whole lotta mit, and it crit.  I've yet to see Frenzied hits hit that high personally.Check on a Berserker fighting an equal leveled toon, not fighting a level 70.And no, its not 2 seconds.  To auto attack for that much, he's wearing Nathsar Shortsword or Carotidcutter or Anaphlaxyis.  And anyone of these three is on a 4 second + delay, Nathsar on a six.  Even with haste, and berserker haste proc, and our haste temp buff, I've never seen it swing that fast.  We do get about 70% chance to double attack with gear though.TBH, I'm glad Warriors finally got some lovin, and that a plate tank can finally stand up to a scout.  The fastest I've killed anyone was a 4 second fight against a level 73 necromancer exile, I'm an 80 berserker in pretty good gear, about 800 str, +250 ca damage, etc.  He got 3 shotted.  Would have been two shotted if I had known for sure it was a summoner and not a wizzy with evac. 

Im a noob. I meant 80 swashie, but for some reason after however long of that being the cap, my hand instinctively wrote 70

[Siphar]

Vydar@Vox wrote:

G1Joe wrote:

The OP isnt just crying tbh he has a 79 Brig and a 80 Lock not to mention 70+SK and Fury

All I believe he is saying is that Auto shouldnt equal 50% of a melee's damage on a raid. (he is crying a bit as his lock is getting pwned on parses by melee now rofl)

If CA's and in SK case spells were increased to keep the output fairly near to current numbers fine but they shouldnt be able to churn out the kind of numbers for nothing as we are seeing in ROK atm.

So what should melee classe's damage be based off of?  Some of us don't get 10k ca's like Assassins.That makes no sense to even request that.

Interesting..

You do realise the assassin cool down on that spell is mininmum 10 minutes with AA? Try looking at wizards for 10k+ big hits that reload every few minutes before tarnishing assassins.

/Move-along

The only differences are that people have more double attack and crit gear now and are using longer delay weapons with a wider damage spread.

There have been lots of changes in RoK, mostly good imo.

Mages getting hit for 1-3k autoattack seems a shame to me, but they do not complain when they completely mitigate any and all damage with their 4 dispersion items? 10% 10% 10% and 3% respectively. /yawn

interesting...

[G1Joe]

the combo if Auto attack and CA > than Spell damage the disparity between the two is evident since RoK melee are starting to dominate parses

the fact is there is no Auto Attack for casters (really)

Anyway imo im in agreement with OP I think auto attack is too strong and needs toning down atm.

[Xunen]

As far as I know Mages can also autoattack. =p

[ailen]

I wonder if there is a direct correlation to how a melee sets themselves up for PvP, vs how a Caster sets themselves up for PvP.  Our mages in my guild have problems on the parses, but not all of them.  I see Manashield as a direct contributor to the reason why the parse is out of whack.  I should also say, that there are probably other reasons why, because I have seen two nearly identically spec'd people parse completely differently.

I play Berserker on raid, I parse pretty high, usually right in there with the brigands, just below the assassins, throw a warlock or two in that group and I start to scratch my head.  Where are our wizards?  usually below me.

Now this is T1 raiding in RoK, about to be T2. I suspect that when the mobs start to orange up a bit, that mages will do a LOT better onthe parses and the field will level out a bit.

For melee classes auto-attack was/has been the bread and butter for those types of dps to excel.  Timing your combat arts, letting your weapons swing, etc.  The slower delay weapons are in the game now, to make it a bit "easier" to excel.  If those slower weapons were in the game in KoS you would have seen a difference there as well.

Load up on +spell damage, get a reflective shard, spec for raid dps, and learn to play your class.  Because honestly, even in T1 RoK raiding I see some mages up high on that parse, and it's not a fluke, its almost always the same couple of people. 

Makes you go /hhmmm  maybe someone needs to think about what they are doing wrong, instead of what someone else is doing right? 

[Bloodfa]

Durgon@Nagafen wrote:

I wonder if there is a direct correlation to how a melee sets themselves up for PvP, vs how a Caster sets themselves up for PvP.  Our mages in my guild have problems on the parses, but not all of them.  I see Manashield as a direct contributor to the reason why the parse is out of whack.  I should also say, that there are probably other reasons why, because I have seen two nearly identically spec'd people parse completely differently.

I play Berserker on raid, I parse pretty high, usually right in there with the brigands, just below the assassins, throw a warlock or two in that group and I start to scratch my head.  Where are our wizards?  usually below me.

Now this is T1 raiding in RoK, about to be T2. I suspect that when the mobs start to orange up a bit, that mages will do a LOT better onthe parses and the field will level out a bit.

For melee classes auto-attack was/has been the bread and butter for those types of dps to excel.  Timing your combat arts, letting your weapons swing, etc.  The slower delay weapons are in the game now, to make it a bit "easier" to excel.  If those slower weapons were in the game in KoS you would have seen a difference there as well.

Load up on +spell damage, get a reflective shard, spec for raid dps, and learn to play your class.  Because honestly, even in T1 RoK raiding I see some mages up high on that parse, and it's not a fluke, its almost always the same couple of people. 

Makes you go /hhmmm  maybe someone needs to think about what they are doing wrong, instead of what someone else is doing right? 

You, sir, get the Quote of the Week Award.

[Vydar]

Siphar wrote:

Vydar@Vox wrote:

G1Joe wrote:

The OP isnt just crying tbh he has a 79 Brig and a 80 Lock not to mention 70+SK and Fury

All I believe he is saying is that Auto shouldnt equal 50% of a melee's damage on a raid. (he is crying a bit as his lock is getting pwned on parses by melee now rofl)

If CA's and in SK case spells were increased to keep the output fairly near to current numbers fine but they shouldnt be able to churn out the kind of numbers for nothing as we are seeing in ROK atm.

So what should melee classe's damage be based off of?  Some of us don't get 10k ca's like Assassins.That makes no sense to even request that.

Interesting..

You do realise the assassin cool down on that spell is mininmum 10 minutes with AA? Try looking at wizards for 10k+ big hits that reload every few minutes before tarnishing assassins.

/Move-along

The only differences are that people have more double attack and crit gear now and are using longer delay weapons with a wider damage spread.

There have been lots of changes in RoK, mostly good imo.

Mages getting hit for 1-3k autoattack seems a shame to me, but they do not complain when they completely mitigate any and all damage with their 4 dispersion items? 10% 10% 10% and 3% respectively. /yawn

interesting...

Yes, of course I know that there's a 10 minute cool down on that.  I was giving that as an example of why so many classes auto attack is so important to their DPS.  My largest hit in PVE is 2300.My largest auto attack in PVE was 6400.  (with temps, crit temp buff, etc running)The only way I CAN parse respectably is with a lot of auto attack.  I am not a caster, that is not my duty.  I am in the mobs face, I am swinging my sword at him.  Most of my CA's also have minor debuffs attached to them... my sword swinging is the majority of my damage.  Rather than asking that other people get nerfed, ask that you get fixed. Ask that mitigation mitigate more.  Tanks fold under like weakass scouts a lot of the time.  I can only imagine how clothies feel.  The PvP game in this game will never be perfect or work properly.  We can ask, beg, cajole, hope that they improve it, as they attempt to do on an almost monthly basis.  Adapt to the system, or go to a PVE server.  Ask that resists be mitigation based rather than outright resists based.  Example:  I should not RESIST Ice Bolt, but when my mouseover says "62% against Cold damage," let me mitigate 62% of that incoming Cold damage.  Resists should NOT be resisting spells in pvp, they should be MITIGATING them. 

[Roald]

I thought this SS might be of some use in this thread

This is NOT me btw

[Vydar]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

I thought this SS might be of some use in this thread " />

This is NOT me btw

What armor was he/she wearing?What temp buffs was the attacker using?  Weapon?  Str amount?  Melee crit chance?  There are a lot of factors into this.  Was the person they were attacking under rez sickness?  Full health?  Buffed, unbufffed? 

[Roald]

Vydar@Vox wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

I thought this SS might be of some use in this thread ">

This is NOT me btw

What armor was he/she wearing?What temp buffs was the attacker using?  Weapon?  Str amount?  Melee crit chance?  There are a lot of factors into this.  Was the person they were attacking under rez sickness?  Full health?  Buffed, unbufffed? 

Good gear, and even if the attacker did have temp buffs up, they still shouldn't be able to do half this damage with auto attack.

[Shangu]

rotfl, what a bunch of whiners.