Did I make a mistake??

[Eviljoe2]

Forgive me for such a dumb question.  I should know better, but never really learned all the different types of armor etc...

I was in a group with my alt Inquisitor and a cloth, no trade cap dropped.  I rolled on it because it was an upgrade to my character and he could equip it.  I got a lot of grief from the Conj. in the group when I won the roll.

He said I wear plate and I have no business rolling on a cloth piece.  He then said I would be accused of Ninjalooting (though it was lotto) and I should learn need before greed.

I apologized and told him my logic but he proceeded to tell me to watch what I am doing from now on etc.....

To be honest, I rarely look at anything other than the stats and if the item is red or not, if it has better stats than what I have and I can equip it, I roll on it...is this bad form???

[Hanoverian]

Yeah, you probably made a mistake.  Unless it was "no-trade" you should give it to the squishy.  If it was "no-trade" you probably shouldn't have rolled on it.  If it was an upgrade, then you needto seriously consider buying or crafting some plate armor cuz your current armor must suck if cloth is better than what you have.

 I hate it when people say they "need" it though and then they don't equip it.  I ran through Achad once with a jerko named Unio on Unreast.  I was a Mystic, trying to gather a set of the Dust chain armor set.  The chest piece dropped and the jerko Paladin rolled on it.  It was no-trade.  He said he "needed" it and that it was OK to roll on it because he "could" wear it.  Even though his current was better.  Then he claimed need on a two-handed weapon, but he was using a shield and when we let him have it, he didn't eqip it. 

There are unwritten rules on what you should roll on andyou quickly learn who not to group with. 

      

[Fox_Roshak]

yuppers you broke an unspoken rule..if your plate roll on plat if your cloth roll on cloth...same with the other types..just cause you are plate and can wear anything doesn't mean you should roll on the cloth. Consider this...If your cloth you can only wear cloth and have to cross yer fingers and hope fer cloth to pop...while other classes can technically wear all the lower types your killing the law of averages here. SHAME SHAME

[PublicVoid]

It depends on the gear in question. And the idea that you should limit yourself to the highest type of gear you can wear is wrong. What good does wearing plate give a Cleric? Mititgation? Please. If a pair of cloth boots dropped with 5 FT, 30 wis and 30 int. I'd expect any healer to roll on them and screw any mage who challenged me. Bottom line is, Power, Health, Stats. If it's an upgrade to your role in a group. roll on it.

[Monkums]

I never played a plate healer past the first two tiers so I can't get into any class specifics... however, if you can wear plate you should take advantage of it!  Sometimes there are situations where it makes sense to equip a different armor type (I see many Wardens wear cloth instead of leather) than what your class normally would wear.  The cloth armor may have better stat boosts to WIS and INT, which is what I'm assuming you're looking for but you want the mitigation of the plate too.  Pick up the slack in stats with jewelry, charms, symbols or adornments.

[Gladiia]

Hanoverian wrote:

Yeah, you probably made a mistake.  Unless it was "no-trade" you should give it to the squishy.  If it was "no-trade" you probably shouldn't have rolled on it.  If it was an upgrade, then you needto seriously consider buying or crafting some plate armor cuz your current armor must suck if cloth is better than what you have.

 I hate it when people say they "need" it though and then they don't equip it.  I ran through Achad once with a jerko named Unio on Unreast.  I was a Mystic, trying to gather a set of the Dust chain armor set.  The chest piece dropped and the jerko Paladin rolled on it.  It was no-trade.  He said he "needed" it and that it was OK to roll on it because he "could" wear it.  Even though his current was better.  Then he claimed need on a two-handed weapon, but he was using a shield and when we let him have it, he didn't eqip it. 

There are unwritten rules on what you should roll on andyou quickly learn who not to group with. 

      

Inqies that don't solo may not always worry about mitigation as much as WIS + either INT or STR.  Despite that, yes you should avoid rolling on no-trade armor that isn't plate. because as said cloth wearers only get the option to wear cloth.

[Iggyvyn]

I tend to agree about the cloth helm.  If cloth is an upgrade for an Inquisitor then you must have some pretty crappy armor.  That said, if your intent was to use it, then I, personally, would have been fine with it, but I know lots of folks wouldn't.

As far as the Paly goes.  If his chest was better, I can't see him legitimately looting no trade Chain with a Mystic in the group.  But I'm fine with him looting the 2Handed sword and not necessarily using it immediately.  With my Shadowknight, I switch between shield and two handed.  I use the shield when I am on Defense and the Two Hander on Offense.

[Minraja]

When you joined that group, did they tell you what the loot rules were? If no then you should make a habit of asking to avoid these situations. I'm not pinning the blame solely on you, it was also the groups fault not making it clear what the looting rules will be for that group. With this said, generally the cleric class wears plate. I can see why the conj was upset.

[TheSpin]

PublicVoid wrote:

It depends on the gear in question.And the idea that you should limit yourself to the highest type of gear you can wear is wrong.What good does wearing plate give a Cleric? Mititgation? Please. If a pair of cloth boots dropped with 5 FT, 30 wis and 30 int. I'd expect any healer to roll on them and screw any mage who challenged me.Bottom line is, Power, Health, Stats. If it's an upgrade to your role in a group. roll on it.

I would say an inquisitor has every right to roll on chain and plate if it's an upgrade in any way.  I would only say he should roll on cloth or leather items unless nobody else needs them.

there may be some exceptions to this rule, like completely insane items that are cloth only, but as a general rule let the classes who get the Most benefit get priority, and plate armor is very important for an inquisitor.

[Eviljoe2]

Wow, I have been so ignorant to this all this time......the stats were better, not the mitigation, obviousely.

But could it be that I have been making people in groups mad for quite some time and never knew it?  I cannot think of a specific time, but since I rolled on anything I could equip (and yes, I am wearing the cap) then I may have done this other times too.

I feel bad now.

[Twyferd]

cEviljoe2 wrote:

I feel bad now.

You should feel bad about it. You should feel terrible about it. As a matter of fact, you should feel SO horribly terrible about it, that you should just quit the game right now and never, ever look back.

Which brings me to the point: Can I have your stuff?

... lol

All joking aside, it's a frakin' game, don't beat yourself up over it.

While it is common practice not to roll on no-trade items that are not of your armor class, and while you should seriously re-evaluate the state of your armor when a cloth piece is better than what you could be wearing as a plate-wearer, and while you need to think that you get a choice of 4 armor types to wear while the poor Conjuror only gets ONE type of armor.... [Removed for Content] I have nothing good to say about your action, now! You should have let the conjy get it. That's all there's to it. Bad plate wearer, BAD!

[Corgidad]

I disagree with most of the posters on this thread.I personally don't think the original poster did anything wrong at all.  He rolled on an item that he was qualified to use, and had every intention of using.  That to me is the definition of "Need before greed".  We can talk "inferences" and "supposes" and "unwritten rules" all we want, but nowhere in "Need before greed" does it say:1) If I have crappy armor for my level I need to go buy common or mastercrafted armor first, and then and ONLY then can I roll on something that I can use that is up for lotto, or2) That I am only permitted to roll on items that are in my armor classHonestly, Templars and Inquisitors are perfect examples of the problem with that line of thinking.  If I am tanking a group, my expectation is that none of my group mates are getting hit.  I couldn't care less whether my templar groupmate was wearing plate, chain or cloth... what I want is a healer that has maximized his ability to function as an effective healer--and power pool (i.e., WIS) is the first and easiest way for him to do that.  And most plate armor is geared towards STR, STA and AGI.  If he has to throw in a few pieces of cloth armor to boost his WIS stats, I'm all for it.  (My main is a pally, and I try and tweak my WIS for my power pool, so trust me--there is very little plate armor that has the nice WIS stats of most cloth armor).  I would never expect a templar to play the role of backup tank if we got adds, so the plate armor mitigation is definitely not a high priority.Now, there are a few circumstances where the original poster would have been better served to pass on the lotto roll, such as:1) Although the item was an "upgrade" for him, it would only have been a marginal upgrade for him but a dramatic upgrade for another class... for example, if the piece had +10WIS and +35INT, and his armor only had +8 WIS, then clearly the Conjuror could have benefited more, or (addresses one person's "need" vs. another's)2) If the item was class-specific and he couldn't wear it anyway  (violates "need" principle)3) If he had already won a few items in lotto and the Conjuror hadn't won any (violates "greed" principle)Just my 2 cents worth,--Corgi

[MrWolfie]

Just because you can do a thing, doesn't make it right and ethical.An Inquisitor wears plate, just because he can wear all the other types doesn't mean he can roll on NO TRADE items that is the ONLY CHOICE for another player in his group.You should be aware of what classes you're grouped with. You should know what armor types and weapon types they particularily need. And no-one should click "LOOT" before the group member who can put an item (especially a NO TRADE item) to best use has said "FFA".Have a little thought for your fellow player(s) before pressing that button ~ then make your decision. Just mashing "LOOT" makes you an inconsiderate player.

[Gonodir]

Corgidad wrote:

plate, chain or cloth... what I want is a healer that has maximized his ability to function as an effective healer--and power pool (i.e., WIS) is the first and easiest way for him to do that.  And most plate armor is geared towards STR, STA and AGI. 

That's blatantly false. There is plenty of plate armor that has great stats for clerics. It would be rather stupid if there weren't. If you're a plate class wearing any armor less than plate, I hate to say it but you need to learn to play. 

[Hanoverian]

Corgidad wrote:

I disagree with most of the posters on this thread.I personally don't think the original poster did anything wrong at all.  He rolled on an item that he was qualified to use, and had every intention of using.  That to me is the definition of "Need before greed".  We can talk "inferences" and "supposes" and "unwritten rules" all we want, but nowhere in "Need before greed" does it say:1) If I have crappy armor for my level I need to go buy common or mastercrafted armor first, and then and ONLY then can I roll on something that I can use that is up for lotto, or2) That I am only permitted to roll on items that are in my armor classHonestly, Templars and Inquisitors are perfect examples of the problem with that line of thinking.  If I am tanking a group, my expectation is that none of my group mates are getting hit.  I couldn't care less whether my templar groupmate was wearing plate, chain or cloth... what I want is a healer that has maximized his ability to function as an effective healer--and power pool (i.e., WIS) is the first and easiest way for him to do that.  And most plate armor is geared towards STR, STA and AGI.  If he has to throw in a few pieces of cloth armor to boost his WIS stats, I'm all for it.  (My main is a pally, and I try and tweak my WIS for my power pool, so trust me--there is very little plate armor that has the nice WIS stats of most cloth armor).  I would never expect a templar to play the role of backup tank if we got adds, so the plate armor mitigation is definitely not a high priority.Now, there are a few circumstances where the original poster would have been better served to pass on the lotto roll, such as:1) Although the item was an "upgrade" for him, it would only have been a marginal upgrade for him but a dramatic upgrade for another class... for example, if the piece had +10WIS and +35INT, and his armor only had +8 WIS, then clearly the Conjuror could have benefited more, or (addresses one person's "need" vs. another's)2) If the item was class-specific and he couldn't wear it anyway  (violates "need" principle)3) If he had already won a few items in lotto and the Conjuror hadn't won any (violates "greed" principle)Just my 2 cents worth,--Corgi

NBG is an "unwritten rule"!  You're right, it doesn't say anywhere the two points you made about NBG, but that's because it's an unwritten rule.  Most players accept those rules.  You don't.  That's why as one poster pointed out, loot rules should be discussed before the group gets underway.   

[Eviljoe2]

Obviously there is a difference of opinion here and just so you are clear where I, the OP stands:

I do feel I did something wrong and will not let that happen again.  Most of the toons I play are cloth wearers and I think I got so used to always rolling on items I could equip, it never occured to me that as plate, I could wear anything....don't get me wrong...I am not such a noob that I did not know I could wear everything, it just never occured to me when looting.

It does not seem fair to me that I take an item that is the ONLY choice for another class.

And perhaps I do need to upgrade my gear, but I am not made of money.  Maybe I can get better gear through quests, but my journal is currently full of quests I have not done.....gotta clear some before getting more.

[Iggyvyn]

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much on this.  It really only matters when you are talking about No Trade items. 

If you roll on an item and then someone else pipes up and says they could really use it, you can still give it up after the fact with regular items.  Sometimes you just don't notice that that was a coercer spell, or whatever.

You just want to pay particularly close attention when it is a No Trade, because you can't fix that situation later.

[Kaycerzan]

NBG usually applies to items that are intended for you.  In this case, Cloth armor is not intended for inquisitors. I won't say that thinking outside the box is bad, mind you.. if a cloth item had +100 heal amount, hell yes I'd dump the plate armor for the +heal amount. That's about as far as the exception goes though. For someone to roll on anything they can wear is unfair to other classes who are more limited (i.e. cloth and less so, chain wearers) on what they can wear. The other problem is that the "I can use that" argument starts to apply to situations where well, what If you need something, but I know I can sell it and get something I need? Technically, that's still something I can use, just not directly. You seem to understand though, so I won't babble too much.  I doubt everyone's going to hate you for not thinking about it, it's a distance from the usual complaint about not knowing how to play your toon. Just be careful in the future and know that while as I said, thinking outside the box is not bad, there are other people out there who will put something to far more use than you will, even if it's an upgrade at this moment for you.

[Skua]

the points is :a mage can only wear CLOTH! , so if leather , chainr or plate drops wont roll on it , because cant use it...a fighter , or cleric can wear plate , chain , leather and cloth.....thats fair , because cloth items usually are focused for mages.....plate are for tanks and clerics,  u will see plenty of cleric items out there....so please let cloth users , cloth items....makes sense no?i dont mind if a fury (wears leather) , roll for a cloth if I DONT NEED IT  (Sounds greddy but in reality isnt), sometimes is a low upgrade , i have 38 int , and the new item has 40...no big deal, roll for it  and grats , just communication....speak with your groupmates ....anyway at low lvls ppl just wear potatoes sacks lol....so whatever is a upgrade..... ask yourself , what it a plate item drops in the next mob with the same stats? how u will feel?

[Webin]

I was once scolded by raid members in chat (and dissed on Team Speak where they didn't realize I was listening) for rolling on a ring that was "geared towards mages", when I'm a ranger.  It was usuable by most classes, and had no special procs or abilities, just stats... lots of INT and more STR than the ring I had on.  For me, more STR and a lot of INT seems like a no-brainer so I rolled.  Their argument was that the INT would be "more beneficial" to other classes (I guess they didn't understand about poison procs), and so I shouldn't have rolled so that someone else could have "maximum benefit".I could understand maximum benefit if it was a guild raid where that benefit would help my guild, but this was a pick up raid, and I couldn't care less about the mages there.  Why should I give up my somewhat smaller benefit for some stranger's maximum benefit?  In my opinion, if I can make direct and immediate use of an item, I am entitled to roll on it, at least giving me a chance to win it,  Regardless of who the item "is meant for".  If it says "This item is designed for and equipable only by Wizards, so there.".. then I won't roll, but if my class is listed, I want my shot at it.Edit: I'm still wearing the ring.  It's a good piece.

[Shotneedle]

IMO...

An item should go to the person who can use it the most (best upgrade).

I hate it when people roll on items where it is +1 to them and +10 to me. 

Hell, one time I was in a raid where someone rolled on a +30 str/sta/agi bracelet. Now I'm a monk, and obviously I want it bad! (as I am wearing crappy braclets) Since this item was tradeable, a mage rolled on it (darn greedy mages...  ) and got a higher roll than me. Then the main tank warrior rolled on it, whereas he had 2 better bracelets, in stats AND resists, and won it and took it (him being the raid leader). I watched his equipment between every mob the rest of the raid, he never equipped it. He probably went and sold it. Things like this [Removed for Content] me off.

However, on the other hand, if I was the conjuror, and I saw it was a big upgrade for you, I would of been happy to you have it. However if it was small(er) to no upgrade to you, I would of been [Removed for Content], as stated above. Unfortunetly, not everyone is like this.

And to the nerf-dart ranger, you were right in that...str+int is better for a scout than a mage...

Edit: Speeeling Misstakiezz

[Velkorb]

guess every casting class in the game that raided T5 content were a bunch of [Removed for Content]and ninja looters because we all wore purple robes. . .I seem to remember every cleric in the world sporting the purple cloth instead of plate, chain, or leather. . .what a bunch of [Removed for Content].

[Noaani]

Velkorban wrote:

guess every casting class in the game that raided T5 content were a bunch of [I cannot control my vocabulary] and ninja looters because we all wore purple robes. . .I seem to remember every cleric in the world sporting the purple cloth instead of plate, chain, or leather. . .what a bunch of [Removed for Content].

Only on the casters?

The best T5 raid should have had 1 person running round in all shiney metal armour, and the other 23 people in that ugly purple robe!

However, there is a huge difference between looting a no-trade cloth item as a plate wearer and camping a [Removed for Content] rock for weeks on end (or hoping to get a rare drop that was also about once every few weeks).

As someone with both a wizard and inquisitor, I can understand both sides here. On my inquisitor, stats are all that matters. I don't really care about mitigation, I don't really care about resists. I want high wis/int/str gear, with good HP and power. Power regen is nice, but not at all needed as an insuisitor, even when I raid with him. If an item drops that is not plate, and has better stats than what I have, i'll look/ask if it is an upgrade for anyone, if not i'll say /need to the group, and expect to get the item.

However...

On my wizard, if some plate wearer rolled on a cloth item that was an upgrade for me, I would either boot them from the group, have them booted from the group, or leave the group. That simple. While the stats on that particular item may well be better for them than what they have on, they also have an entier tiers worth of leather, chain and plate armour to fill that slot with, while I am restricted to cloth. There will almost certianly be a better piece of gear for them from one of the other armour grades, while for all they know that particular item may be the best item for that slot I am able to find outside of raiding, and with caster loot often being in short supply, rolling on a piece that is an upgrade to a caster is nothing more than an insult.

[Jehannum]

By having posted somewhere that I could post, you have already solicited my opinion, so here goes. 

1. EJ2 - As far as I'm concerned, nobody should ever be blacklisted for a single, accidental issue.  No matter how much it may cost you or others.  Deliberate is another matter, but the way you're beating up on yourself over this shows that you regret it, and that's enough so long as you're careful to avoid doing it again.

2. Webin, I agree wholeheartedly.  As a troubador, I'd have done exactly the same in your situation if it were an upgrade for me.  Too many non-scouts don't appreciate that we have a heavy need for both int and strength to drive our dps (even those of us whose primary dps is through others, like me)

3. Back in the day, it used to be that plate-wearers who wore a piece of leather, chain or cloth ended up with slightly more avoidance, but I've been gone a long time.  Has that changed such that cloth is of zero value to anyone but a squishy, or is this just a matter of people allowing themselves to become set in their ways?  I mean, mitigation's nice for soloing but in most raid situations where the healers shouldn't be eating melee damage is there really any point to wearing inferior plate if a better piece of cloth does drop?

[KBern]

Eviljoe2 wrote:

Forgive me for such a dumb question.  I should know better, but never really learned all the different types of armor etc...

I was in a group with my alt Inquisitor and a cloth, no trade cap dropped.  I rolled on it because it was an upgrade to my character and he could equip it.  I got a lot of grief from the Conj. in the group when I won the roll.

He said I wear plate and I have no business rolling on a cloth piece.  He then said I would be accused of Ninjalooting (though it was lotto) and I should learn need before greed.

I apologized and told him my logic but he proceeded to tell me to watch what I am doing from now on etc.....

To be honest, I rarely look at anything other than the stats and if the item is red or not, if it has better stats than what I have and I can equip it, I roll on it...is this bad form???

Yes you made a mistake.

In a total mercenary way, no, but in a fair play way and the doing the right thing, then yes.

From the bottom up, mages have the least options, then leather, then chain, then plate.

As you can see, a plate wearer can potentially wear any item in game if the restrictions are only on the type of armor, mages can only wear one, and basically the normal rule is cloth wearer gets first dibs on cloth, leather on leather, chain on chain, plate on plate.

[KBern]

Velkorban wrote:

guess every casting class in the game that raided T5 content were a bunch of [I cannot control my vocabulary] and ninja looters because we all wore purple robes. . .I seem to remember every cleric in the world sporting the purple cloth instead of plate, chain, or leather. . .what a bunch of [Removed for Content].

That purple robe was a quest not a looted item in most cases.  You could either get it from any drop mob in Feerrott and most got it solo, or there was the rock spawn by the tree where the quest starter was found.

Comparing eggs and oranges.

[Mighty Melvor]

Eviljoe2 wrote:

To be honest, I rarely look at anything other than the stats and if the item is red or not, if it has better stats than what I have and I can equip it, I roll on it...is this bad form???

Back to the original post...

When you say you look at the stats. Do you only look at the +physical stats or do you also look at mitigation.  If you rolled on a cloth piece that was an *upgrade*, your current piece must have had horrendous mitigation.  For plate wearers mitigationis also a stat you should consider.  Being an Inq, it's probably not important in a group setting (you shouldn't be the one getting hit), but solo its very important.

[Gnevil]

First and foremost, don't beat yourself up for this.  It happens.

Secondly it's kinda a given that cloth pretty much always goes to cloth unless the cloth wearer's in your group say FFA.

As to if it's an upgrade then you are in a sad state, I would disagree.  I too look at gear for it's overall impact for me.  However keep this

in mind, you are in a group with other pickup players ect.  This gear is an upgrade for yourself and obviously the cloth wearer. You are most

likely not a raider and thus the upgrade status of this gear.  Mitigation does mean something to you, as you will not always have an optimum

group and will being the healer under attack more then a few times in your group.  Mitigation at that time helps you a great deal, you are

worthless to your group if you are lying face down on the floor.  Plate or at least Chain for the main pieces for the win.