Shiny's ... any reason not part of the loot system?

Ashad · 11-07-2007, 01:40 AM

Groups have the most intricate loot rules for any type of loot (nbg, ffa, dkp) and yet when a yellow glowy question mark appears its suddenly a free for all. Guild groups you can arrange to have 1 guy loot them and everyone /rand, but even thats somewhat of an inconvenience and outside of a guild in a PUG its difficult to get them listen. So can I ask why are these not included in the loot system already established ... when someone loots one, have the item get randomed by the group members or assigned by the loot master?And another thing I noticed is an issue with nodrop items in PUG groups, where half decline since they can't use it immediately and then the rest realize that no one wants it and they roll so only half of the group gets the greed roll (where a Need / Greed / Decline 3rd option like some MMORPGs could be very useful)

phoenixshard · 11-07-2007, 01:46 AM

I'd say shinies are the same way that harvest nodes are. Whoever gets to it first gets it.

Ashad · 11-07-2007, 02:05 AM

That is the present system, and what ends up happening is the tank runs in and gets in combat and is tanking and the healers run into the room and are healing leaving the dps free to run in and grab the shiny and then enter the fight.Why not give everyone a fair shot at the item?

Illmarr · 11-07-2007, 03:33 AM

As tank, I'm the first person to see what's coming up. Were I so inclined I could practically monopolize the shinies since I'm out in front of everyone else. I don't pick them all up just so everyone has a fair shot.

But this topic never gets too old for discussion.

wullailhuit · 11-07-2007, 04:42 AM

Having moved to Vanguard and back again , one thing I'd REALLY like to see is adaption of their loot system.Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls.We just hit greed if it was something we couldn't use , stuff went to those who needed it without people accidentally getting no drop items without thinking or people hitting pass when it turned out it was FFA because the person of the right class had the same or better already.

Paladin776 · 11-07-2007, 06:02 AM

Ashad wrote:

...what ends up happening is the tank runs in and gets in combat and is tanking and the healers run into the room and are healing leaving the dps free to run in and grab the shiny and then enter the fight...

Maybe this is just me, but that sounds like someone isn't keeping up with their end of the job in a group and needs replacing.

Killerbee3000 · 11-07-2007, 06:11 AM

wullailhuit wrote:

Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls.

pointless, simply put people who steal loot on ignore and insta kick from group an make sure their guilds kicks them aswell. need, greed, decline? whats that good for... its no better than the current system... it still allows for abuse... simply only group with people that you have had good experience with...as for the dps running to get shinies while others are fighting... kick them, if they dont bother fighting they do not filll their designed role, i.e. they need to be removed from the group.

Belaythien · 11-07-2007, 06:33 AM

I agree that in groups ? should also be subject to loot rules. Shinies are probably the number one problem in groups. People neglect their role or even worse wipe the group because they trigger a trap out of greed or pull adds. Often it is the same person that goes straight for the ?. It's just no fun if you have to fight over ?s instead of focusing on what you're supposed to do.It is easy to say "just kick them" but after wasting an hour trying to find enough people for a group you would effectively ruin it for everyone if you kick one.

Armawk · 11-07-2007, 06:37 AM

We have done this a few times eh?

Whats funny is, each class maintains firmly that they are the ones disadvantaged in getting shinies. tanks say the dps take them all, dps say the healers, healers say the tank, in the end everyone blames the ranger.

metacell · 11-07-2007, 06:49 AM

I guess the one who is quickest and has the least shame gets it.If you're a responsible tank, you feel you can't risk the group by going for the shiny, and see the DPS or healers grabbing for it.If you're a responsible healer, you feel you can't risk the group by forgetting to heal the tank, and see the DPS or tank go for it.I guess it is easier for the DPS to run off for a shiny without risking the group, but they can still get aggro or split the group.

Rattfa · 11-07-2007, 07:01 AM

I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened.

ke'la · 11-07-2007, 07:13 AM

Its very simple just round robin the shinies, if you get one don't go for another one until everyone else has gotten one. then start again. Aslong as everyone avoids the Greed factor everything would work out fine. The proublem with turning shinies into loot is that they don't in anyway use the loot mechanic they use the Harvest Mechanic wich is first finnished first served. As such they would have to totally revamp a game mechanic for it to work.

Vanilla1 · 11-07-2007, 09:27 AM

Hi

Just to add my 2cp's I think some of the ideas here are very good. I would also like to see shinies added to the loot list in groups, or even the round robin idea sounds good. I also love the idea of adding a need / greed/ decline button. Not because i have problems in groups, but just because it is a much simpler way to do it. Sometimes people dont call out quickly, and the group starts to move off, and the timer is running out, and I am not sure if someone needs or not. At that point you can either press to loot or decline.

This is the point that mistakes happen. As you push the button someone shouts need or ffa and if you pressed wrong can lead to alot of time wasting. However under the proposed idea, instantly i know whether i need it or not, and i push the button accordingly and move on. Alot better in my view. I think would make looting a joy rather than a chore.

Ghostwolf

Btw sorry bout the fonts, not sur what happened lol..

erin · 11-07-2007, 09:27 AM

Rattface@Nagafen wrote:

I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened.

Complicated? No. How about simple? And Fair? If you are grouped, the shiny should go to lotto, just like anything else. That's simple enough right?I like groups where whoever picks it up links it and everyone randoms. But that's incredibly rare. Most groups its FFA and yes, one person seems to monopolize the shinies. I never make a big deal out of it, but I find it annoying and would LOVE to have the shinies as part of the lotto system.

Gladiia · 11-07-2007, 10:15 AM

ke'la wrote:

Its very simple just round robin the shinies, if you get one don't go for another one until everyone else has gotten one. then start again. Aslong as everyone avoids the Greed factor everything would work out fine. The proublem with turning shinies into loot is that they don't in anyway use the loot mechanic they use the Harvest Mechanic wich is first finnished first served. As such they would have to totally revamp a game mechanic for it to work.

I used to do /ran 100 on the shinies whenever possible, but have found that round robin is even better. No one fumbling to type /ran 100, EVERYONE is getting an equal (or very close to) amount of shinies, and nothing has to slow down. Since everyone knows that they are getting their turn no one risks the group for the shiny, and waits for the room to be cleared first. I wish that all groups would abide by something like this....it really is a pain when people can't share these. It's not like they would have been getting them if they were not in the group....

Rattfa · 11-07-2007, 10:20 AM

erin wrote:

Rattface@Nagafen wrote:
I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened.
Complicated? No. How about simple? And Fair? If you are grouped, the shiny should go to lotto, just like anything else. That's simple enough right?I like groups where whoever picks it up links it and everyone randoms. But that's incredibly rare. Most groups its FFA and yes, one person seems to monopolize the shinies. I never make a big deal out of it, but I find it annoying and would LOVE to have the shinies as part of the lotto system.

The more time is spend getting everyone to /rand on shinies is less time doing what I want to do, which is xp or complete an instance, or kill a named.If someone wants to harvest a shiny in my group while we're fighting then they can find themselves kicked, as they're worthless to the group. You want them that bad, harvest shinies after, or on your own time.

Balien · 11-07-2007, 10:23 AM

Killerbee3000 wrote:

wullailhuit wrote:
Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls.
pointless, simply put people who steal loot on ignore and insta kick from group an make sure their guilds kicks them aswell. need, greed, decline? whats that good for... its no better than the current system... it still allows for abuse... simply only group with people that you have had good experience with...as for the dps running to get shinies while others are fighting... kick them, if they dont bother fighting they do not filll their designed role, i.e. they need to be removed from the group.

This suggestion is not pointless. It eliminates everyone in the group from worrying about who's who and who needs what before rolling... and also from asking "anyone need?" Makes things much quicker to just 'greed' it if you just want it for loot or 'need' it if you really need it. The greed/need still works on an honor system, but it's just an easier loot mechanic in my opinion. It works in WoW... and they have some 9 million subscribers, it's obviously not pointless. Being a veteran of both games, I unfortunately prefer WoW's loot system over EQ2's. My 2coppers.

KBern · 11-07-2007, 11:11 AM

Simple and obvious answer is because they are not loot.

They are harvestables.

Everyone in groups should act like big boys and girls, pull up their diapers, and just use a rotation....pretty simple.

StormCinder · 11-07-2007, 12:28 PM

From my limited experience with PUGs (and in the absence of a game mechanic), the best bet is to make sure there's a policy up front when the group is forming. I've seen groups implode because someone is snagging every shiny along the way and getting separated from the group. Best way to annoy a group is fall behind and not be doing your job.

But, if you mention up front, "hey, I need shinies from this zone...any prob with grabbing them?" you may find that the group will accomodate...and since you asked, everyone might just leave them to you. Might. If they say, "No, we don't stop for shinies." then you need to decide what you're going to do: go with the group and ignore the shinies, or leave the group (option 3: be a jerk and go with the group and snag shinies anyway til you annoy them enough to kick you.)

SC

TheSpin · 11-07-2007, 12:48 PM

I definately think there should be an implementation of a lotto loot system for shinies. Everyone in the group should have a chance at them. I can see how stopping to /random on them wastes time, but if there was an implemented lotto for them it would save time because nobody would have to worry about who looted it.

As things currently exist, I think most groups would rather just continue ignoring the way shinies work and finish their quest or kill the mob they're after. It would have to be a mechanic change.

A Need/Greed/Decline system would also be very nice. Currently some people automatically decline things they can't use if they assume someone else can use them and then the loot goes to someone else who can't use it because nobody actually needed it. Currently time is wasted while people let the rest of the group know if they need something so that nobody else rolls on it (usually someone else rolls on it anyway). Sure, this wouldn't change the ability to exploit the loot system, but it would clearly point out who is exploiting and who isn't.

Embret · 11-07-2007, 12:48 PM

My favorite system so far has been to assign someone in the group to grab all the shinies, they are then randomed at the end of the run. Simple, fair, and quick. I generally get a couple of shinies per run that I can use with this method.

Gnevil · 11-07-2007, 12:57 PM

As long as shiny's equal AA/XP or plat in the bank this is going to be a problem for a non friends group, or non guild group. It's been this way since day one, and will continue to be this way for a very long time. And only seems to be a real big issue in the Catacombs or in Castle groups. By now I think most have figured out the Unrest issues, all outdoors are gtg as you clear. All indoors wait till the zone is cleared and haul [Removed for Content] to collect. I have yet to be in an Unrest group where the final chest drops gets popped, nothing for you as you are running top speed back for the rest of the shiny's.

Liunatic · 11-07-2007, 04:34 PM

I would also love to see Vanguards loot system in place. It makes it much faster than standing around waiting and then trying to get the loot that you could use from someone that rolled just for greed. It would make things move much faster.

Valdaglerion · 11-07-2007, 06:33 PM

Agreed. While in group or raid shinies and tomes should be added to the loot system with the same designations - FFA / Leader Only / Lotto and those should be separate from other loot.Often times I find that we have a person designated to grab them all and then /rand on them at the end, typically a mage standing in the back anyway that grabs them after the area is clear the the tank is staging the next pull.What I have seen happen with regards to kicking someone from a group is this ->The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway.

Armawk · 11-07-2007, 06:55 PM

Valdaglerion wrote:

The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway.

Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no?

Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer.

Chickenlady · 11-07-2007, 07:09 PM

Saurakk@Guk wrote:

Everyone in groups should act like big boys and girls, pull up their diapers, and just use a rotation....pretty simple.

That is exactly what I do when I am duo-ing with my husband - we take it in turn to loot the shineys (and then if one of us doesn't need it we trade with each other too!)...but in a larger group - well I am one of those DPS who are according to a post above supposed to be grabbing the shineys while the tank is busy tanking and the healers are busy healing - only trouble is, I am too busy DPSing to do that - so someone else always grabs it.......in some ways I wish they could be included as part of the loot - trouble is as has been said, they are not classed as loot but as harvestables... so the only real answer is to agree with the rest of the group before hand to either take turns to get the shineys or for one person to grab them and then for everyone to roll on them later - unfortunately in every group I have been in this hasn't happened.... so you just put up with the situation and get the shineys when you can

Gladiia · 11-07-2007, 07:10 PM

shaunfletcher wrote:

Valdaglerion wrote:
The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway.
Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no?
Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer.

picking up a shiny while a person or group is standing on top of it fighting the mobs that were in range of it IS UNETHICAL. I don't care how contested it is, if the person snabbing it does it from under someone elses foot who had to complete combat first, they are being an absolute jerk.

TheSpin · 11-07-2007, 07:18 PM

shaunfletcher wrote:

Valdaglerion wrote:
The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway.
Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no?
Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer.

This is likely the opinion of the vast majority of players. Unless new mechanics are introduced to allow rolling on shinies you will never get the majority of the players to agree to handle them as anything more than free for alls.

Peter Corbin · 11-07-2007, 07:24 PM

I think the simplist and perhaps most effective change they could make to shinies and groups is to broadcast in group (or raid, if possible) that so-and-so has harvested X-collectible, similiar to the crafting or transmuting messages that are currently in game. Just as someone would get yelled at if they decided to transmute several bags of Adept I's during a fight, I think if someone was always harvesting question marks during fights they too would be held accountable. It would also solve the problem of knowing what exactly they got, they could say they just got another pristine shard or other common, but if they looted something like a lost soul or a shining green locust or one of the items needed for the goggles in EOF then there will probably be interest in group members rolling for it. It would also help catch people who harvest regular nodes too when they should be casting spells, or if you are waiting for them at a zone in and they're stopping to chop up every log they see on the way.

Many shinies sell for more than some master spells of the same level range, so I think it should be taken more seriously. Oh you won the master spell, but I got the silver slayer spike I win!

Another concern I haven't seen addressed in this thread at least is no-trade items... I think in many zones the no-trade pages for tome collections come from chest drops or body drops, but some do come from "!'s" and if one person was taking all the shinies then no one would have a shot at the no-trade ones and there is no confirmation button for no-trade harvested pages.

I think the arguement that they should go harvest the shinies on their own time is kind of silly when it comes to zones like Castle MM or Kaladim or Nizra, where it is difficult or near-impossible to do so solo.

Armawk · 11-07-2007, 07:24 PM

Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote:

picking up a shiny while a person or group is standing on top of it fighting the mobs that were in range of it IS UNETHICAL. I don't care how contested it is, if the person snabbing it does it from under someone elses foot who had to complete combat first, they are being an absolute jerk.

Jerk is a perfect word to describe them.. happens all the time to me when Im killing a mob in bonemire to get to the shiny nearby, for example.. someone walks in and takes it while I fight.

I just dont see it as something to get all bent out of shape over, x percent of people are rude. Theres plenty more where that came from.

Calling it unethical implies there is an established ethical standard in the game regarding ownership of contested content however.. and there is no such thing. None.

11-07-2007, 01:40 AM	#1
Ashad Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 52	Groups have the most intricate loot rules for any type of loot (nbg, ffa, dkp) and yet when a yellow glowy question mark appears its suddenly a free for all. Guild groups you can arrange to have 1 guy loot them and everyone /rand, but even thats somewhat of an inconvenience and outside of a guild in a PUG its difficult to get them listen. So can I ask why are these not included in the loot system already established ... when someone loots one, have the item get randomed by the group members or assigned by the loot master?And another thing I noticed is an issue with nodrop items in PUG groups, where half decline since they can't use it immediately and then the rest realize that no one wants it and they roll so only half of the group gets the greed roll (where a Need / Greed / Decline 3rd option like some MMORPGs could be very useful) __________________ ~Kelrax Bladesinger Webmaster of EQII Home & Garden, Norrath's premier housing resource and catalog http://www.eq2hg.com

11-07-2007, 02:05 AM	#3
Ashad Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 52	That is the present system, and what ends up happening is the tank runs in and gets in combat and is tanking and the healers run into the room and are healing leaving the dps free to run in and grab the shiny and then enter the fight.Why not give everyone a fair shot at the item? __________________ ~Kelrax Bladesinger Webmaster of EQII Home & Garden, Norrath's premier housing resource and catalog http://www.eq2hg.com

11-07-2007, 04:42 AM	#5
wullailhuit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,007	Having moved to Vanguard and back again , one thing I'd REALLY like to see is adaption of their loot system.Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls.We just hit greed if it was something we couldn't use , stuff went to those who needed it without people accidentally getting no drop items without thinking or people hitting pass when it turned out it was FFA because the person of the right class had the same or better already. __________________

11-07-2007, 06:02 AM	#6
Paladin776 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Missouri Posts: 501	Ashad wrote: ...what ends up happening is the tank runs in and gets in combat and is tanking and the healers run into the room and are healing leaving the dps free to run in and grab the shiny and then enter the fight... Maybe this is just me, but that sounds like someone isn't keeping up with their end of the job in a group and needs replacing. __________________

11-07-2007, 06:11 AM	#7
Killerbee3000 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: right behind you Posts: 1,802	wullailhuit wrote: Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls. pointless, simply put people who steal loot on ignore and insta kick from group an make sure their guilds kicks them aswell. need, greed, decline? whats that good for... its no better than the current system... it still allows for abuse... simply only group with people that you have had good experience with...as for the dps running to get shinies while others are fighting... kick them, if they dont bother fighting they do not filll their designed role, i.e. they need to be removed from the group. __________________ Whiskers without loosing Eyes in '08!

11-07-2007, 01:46 AM	#2
phoenixshard Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 403	I'd say shinies are the same way that harvest nodes are. Whoever gets to it first gets it.

11-07-2007, 03:33 AM	#4
Illmarr Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,448	As tank, I'm the first person to see what's coming up. Were I so inclined I could practically monopolize the shinies since I'm out in front of everyone else. I don't pick them all up just so everyone has a fair shot. But this topic never gets too old for discussion.

11-07-2007, 06:33 AM	#8
Belaythien Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 576	I agree that in groups ? should also be subject to loot rules. Shinies are probably the number one problem in groups. People neglect their role or even worse wipe the group because they trigger a trap out of greed or pull adds. Often it is the same person that goes straight for the ?. It's just no fun if you have to fight over ?s instead of focusing on what you're supposed to do.It is easy to say "just kick them" but after wasting an hour trying to find enough people for a group you would effectively ruin it for everyone if you kick one.

11-07-2007, 06:37 AM	#9
Armawk Server: Everfrost Guild: Nos Es Rutilus Rank: Tirones Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,240	We have done this a few times eh? Whats funny is, each class maintains firmly that they are the ones disadvantaged in getting shinies. tanks say the dps take them all, dps say the healers, healers say the tank, in the end everyone blames the ranger.

11-07-2007, 06:49 AM	#10
metacell Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 275	I guess the one who is quickest and has the least shame gets it.If you're a responsible tank, you feel you can't risk the group by going for the shiny, and see the DPS or healers grabbing for it.If you're a responsible healer, you feel you can't risk the group by forgetting to heal the tank, and see the DPS or tank go for it.I guess it is easier for the DPS to run off for a shiny without risking the group, but they can still get aggro or split the group.

11-07-2007, 07:01 AM	#11
Rattfa Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Friends And Family General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,083	I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened. __________________ Squeeeek, 80 Brigand - Nagafen Rattface, 80 Fury - Nagafen

11-07-2007, 07:13 AM	#12
ke'la Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 5,445	Its very simple just round robin the shinies, if you get one don't go for another one until everyone else has gotten one. then start again. Aslong as everyone avoids the Greed factor everything would work out fine. The proublem with turning shinies into loot is that they don't in anyway use the loot mechanic they use the Harvest Mechanic wich is first finnished first served. As such they would have to totally revamp a game mechanic for it to work. __________________

11-07-2007, 09:27 AM	#13
Vanilla1 Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 131	Hi Just to add my 2cp's I think some of the ideas here are very good. I would also like to see shinies added to the loot list in groups, or even the round robin idea sounds good. I also love the idea of adding a need / greed/ decline button. Not because i have problems in groups, but just because it is a much simpler way to do it. Sometimes people dont call out quickly, and the group starts to move off, and the timer is running out, and I am not sure if someone needs or not. At that point you can either press to loot or decline. This is the point that mistakes happen. As you push the button someone shouts need or ffa and if you pressed wrong can lead to alot of time wasting. However under the proposed idea, instantly i know whether i need it or not, and i push the button accordingly and move on. Alot better in my view. I think would make looting a joy rather than a chore. Ghostwolf Btw sorry bout the fonts, not sur what happened lol..

11-07-2007, 09:27 AM	#14
erin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,834	Rattface@Nagafen wrote: I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened. Complicated? No. How about simple? And Fair? If you are grouped, the shiny should go to lotto, just like anything else. That's simple enough right?I like groups where whoever picks it up links it and everyone randoms. But that's incredibly rare. Most groups its FFA and yes, one person seems to monopolize the shinies. I never make a big deal out of it, but I find it annoying and would LOVE to have the shinies as part of the lotto system.

11-07-2007, 10:15 AM	#15
Gladiia Server: The Bazaar Guild: Driven Rank: Regent Seer Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,234	ke'la wrote: Its very simple just round robin the shinies, if you get one don't go for another one until everyone else has gotten one. then start again. Aslong as everyone avoids the Greed factor everything would work out fine. The proublem with turning shinies into loot is that they don't in anyway use the loot mechanic they use the Harvest Mechanic wich is first finnished first served. As such they would have to totally revamp a game mechanic for it to work. I used to do /ran 100 on the shinies whenever possible, but have found that round robin is even better. No one fumbling to type /ran 100, EVERYONE is getting an equal (or very close to) amount of shinies, and nothing has to slow down. Since everyone knows that they are getting their turn no one risks the group for the shiny, and waits for the room to be cleared first. I wish that all groups would abide by something like this....it really is a pain when people can't share these. It's not like they would have been getting them if they were not in the group....

11-07-2007, 10:20 AM	#16
Rattfa Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Friends And Family General Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,083	erin wrote: Rattface@Nagafen wrote: I couldn't care less tbh. If I join a PUG and someone suggests some complicated method for dishing out freakin shinys, then I'm out of there...I'll just find another group. Not that it's ever happened. Complicated? No. How about simple? And Fair? If you are grouped, the shiny should go to lotto, just like anything else. That's simple enough right?I like groups where whoever picks it up links it and everyone randoms. But that's incredibly rare. Most groups its FFA and yes, one person seems to monopolize the shinies. I never make a big deal out of it, but I find it annoying and would LOVE to have the shinies as part of the lotto system. The more time is spend getting everyone to /rand on shinies is less time doing what I want to do, which is xp or complete an instance, or kill a named.If someone wants to harvest a shiny in my group while we're fighting then they can find themselves kicked, as they're worthless to the group. You want them that bad, harvest shinies after, or on your own time. __________________ Squeeeek, 80 Brigand - Nagafen Rattface, 80 Fury - Nagafen

11-07-2007, 10:23 AM	#17
Balien Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Killerbee3000 wrote: wullailhuit wrote: Need , Greed , Decline with people hitting Need taking Priority in the rolls. pointless, simply put people who steal loot on ignore and insta kick from group an make sure their guilds kicks them aswell. need, greed, decline? whats that good for... its no better than the current system... it still allows for abuse... simply only group with people that you have had good experience with...as for the dps running to get shinies while others are fighting... kick them, if they dont bother fighting they do not filll their designed role, i.e. they need to be removed from the group. This suggestion is not pointless. It eliminates everyone in the group from worrying about who's who and who needs what before rolling... and also from asking "anyone need?" Makes things much quicker to just 'greed' it if you just want it for loot or 'need' it if you really need it. The greed/need still works on an honor system, but it's just an easier loot mechanic in my opinion. It works in WoW... and they have some 9 million subscribers, it's obviously not pointless. Being a veteran of both games, I unfortunately prefer WoW's loot system over EQ2's. My 2coppers.

11-07-2007, 11:11 AM	#18
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	Simple and obvious answer is because they are not loot. They are harvestables. Everyone in groups should act like big boys and girls, pull up their diapers, and just use a rotation....pretty simple. __________________

11-07-2007, 12:28 PM	#19
StormCinder Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,009	From my limited experience with PUGs (and in the absence of a game mechanic), the best bet is to make sure there's a policy up front when the group is forming. I've seen groups implode because someone is snagging every shiny along the way and getting separated from the group. Best way to annoy a group is fall behind and not be doing your job. But, if you mention up front, "hey, I need shinies from this zone...any prob with grabbing them?" you may find that the group will accomodate...and since you asked, everyone might just leave them to you. Might. If they say, "No, we don't stop for shinies." then you need to decide what you're going to do: go with the group and ignore the shinies, or leave the group (option 3: be a jerk and go with the group and snag shinies anyway til you annoy them enough to kick you.) SC __________________ ______________________________________________ Hostis Humani Generis curÂ·mudgÂ·eon (kr-mjn) n. An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

11-07-2007, 12:48 PM	#20
TheSpin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,587	I definately think there should be an implementation of a lotto loot system for shinies. Everyone in the group should have a chance at them. I can see how stopping to /random on them wastes time, but if there was an implemented lotto for them it would save time because nobody would have to worry about who looted it. As things currently exist, I think most groups would rather just continue ignoring the way shinies work and finish their quest or kill the mob they're after. It would have to be a mechanic change. A Need/Greed/Decline system would also be very nice. Currently some people automatically decline things they can't use if they assume someone else can use them and then the loot goes to someone else who can't use it because nobody actually needed it. Currently time is wasted while people let the rest of the group know if they need something so that nobody else rolls on it (usually someone else rolls on it anyway). Sure, this wouldn't change the ability to exploit the loot system, but it would clearly point out who is exploiting and who isn't.

11-07-2007, 12:48 PM	#21
Embret Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 294	My favorite system so far has been to assign someone in the group to grab all the shinies, they are then randomed at the end of the run. Simple, fair, and quick. I generally get a couple of shinies per run that I can use with this method.

11-07-2007, 12:57 PM	#22
Gnevil Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 184	As long as shiny's equal AA/XP or plat in the bank this is going to be a problem for a non friends group, or non guild group. It's been this way since day one, and will continue to be this way for a very long time. And only seems to be a real big issue in the Catacombs or in Castle groups. By now I think most have figured out the Unrest issues, all outdoors are gtg as you clear. All indoors wait till the zone is cleared and haul [Removed for Content] to collect. I have yet to be in an Unrest group where the final chest drops gets popped, nothing for you as you are running top speed back for the rest of the shiny's.

11-07-2007, 04:34 PM	#23
Liunatic Elder Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 46	I would also love to see Vanguards loot system in place. It makes it much faster than standing around waiting and then trying to get the loot that you could use from someone that rolled just for greed. It would make things move much faster. __________________

11-07-2007, 06:33 PM	#24
Valdaglerion Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,870	Agreed. While in group or raid shinies and tomes should be added to the loot system with the same designations - FFA / Leader Only / Lotto and those should be separate from other loot.Often times I find that we have a person designated to grab them all and then /rand on them at the end, typically a mage standing in the back anyway that grabs them after the area is clear the the tank is staging the next pull.What I have seen happen with regards to kicking someone from a group is this ->The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway.

11-07-2007, 06:55 PM	#25
Armawk Server: Everfrost Guild: Nos Es Rutilus Rank: Tirones Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,240	Valdaglerion wrote: The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway. Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no? Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer.

11-07-2007, 07:09 PM	#26
Chickenlady Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Saurakk@Guk wrote: Everyone in groups should act like big boys and girls, pull up their diapers, and just use a rotation....pretty simple. That is exactly what I do when I am duo-ing with my husband - we take it in turn to loot the shineys (and then if one of us doesn't need it we trade with each other too!)...but in a larger group - well I am one of those DPS who are according to a post above supposed to be grabbing the shineys while the tank is busy tanking and the healers are busy healing - only trouble is, I am too busy DPSing to do that - so someone else always grabs it.......in some ways I wish they could be included as part of the loot - trouble is as has been said, they are not classed as loot but as harvestables... so the only real answer is to agree with the rest of the group before hand to either take turns to get the shineys or for one person to grab them and then for everyone to roll on them later - unfortunately in every group I have been in this hasn't happened.... so you just put up with the situation and get the shineys when you can

11-07-2007, 07:10 PM	#27
Gladiia Server: The Bazaar Guild: Driven Rank: Regent Seer Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,234	shaunfletcher wrote: Valdaglerion wrote: The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway. Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no? Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer. picking up a shiny while a person or group is standing on top of it fighting the mobs that were in range of it IS UNETHICAL. I don't care how contested it is, if the person snabbing it does it from under someone elses foot who had to complete combat first, they are being an absolute jerk.

11-07-2007, 07:18 PM	#28
TheSpin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,587	shaunfletcher wrote: Valdaglerion wrote: The person kicked stays in the zone and ninjas while the group is fighting mobs or runs behind them grabbing shinies as they are clearing through the zone. Unethcial? Yes but seen it. Gets worse when the group gets preoccupied worrying about the jerk ninja they kicked from the group who is looting the shinies and they get stupid and wipes start happening. Granted, lotto doesnt actually fix this situation in the least but it might help keep it from happening in some instances anyway. Whats unethical about it? contested content is just that, including shinies, there is nothing unethical about picking them up, and if you kick someone from a group in an instance and they remain in the instance (I have to confess to never having been kicked from a group at all so Im not sure what the game does to you) then its your problem not theirs no? Not something I would ever do because Im not a git, but unethical is overdoing it. impolite would be closer. This is likely the opinion of the vast majority of players. Unless new mechanics are introduced to allow rolling on shinies you will never get the majority of the players to agree to handle them as anything more than free for alls.

11-07-2007, 07:24 PM	#29
Peter Corbin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 39	I think the simplist and perhaps most effective change they could make to shinies and groups is to broadcast in group (or raid, if possible) that so-and-so has harvested X-collectible, similiar to the crafting or transmuting messages that are currently in game. Just as someone would get yelled at if they decided to transmute several bags of Adept I's during a fight, I think if someone was always harvesting question marks during fights they too would be held accountable. It would also solve the problem of knowing what exactly they got, they could say they just got another pristine shard or other common, but if they looted something like a lost soul or a shining green locust or one of the items needed for the goggles in EOF then there will probably be interest in group members rolling for it. It would also help catch people who harvest regular nodes too when they should be casting spells, or if you are waiting for them at a zone in and they're stopping to chop up every log they see on the way. Many shinies sell for more than some master spells of the same level range, so I think it should be taken more seriously. Oh you won the master spell, but I got the silver slayer spike I win! Another concern I haven't seen addressed in this thread at least is no-trade items... I think in many zones the no-trade pages for tome collections come from chest drops or body drops, but some do come from "!'s" and if one person was taking all the shinies then no one would have a shot at the no-trade ones and there is no confirmation button for no-trade harvested pages. I think the arguement that they should go harvest the shinies on their own time is kind of silly when it comes to zones like Castle MM or Kaladim or Nizra, where it is difficult or near-impossible to do so solo. __________________

11-07-2007, 07:24 PM	#30
Armawk Server: Everfrost Guild: Nos Es Rutilus Rank: Tirones Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,240	Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote: picking up a shiny while a person or group is standing on top of it fighting the mobs that were in range of it IS UNETHICAL. I don't care how contested it is, if the person snabbing it does it from under someone elses foot who had to complete combat first, they are being an absolute jerk. Jerk is a perfect word to describe them.. happens all the time to me when Im killing a mob in bonemire to get to the shiny nearby, for example.. someone walks in and takes it while I fight. I just dont see it as something to get all bent out of shape over, x percent of people are rude. Theres plenty more where that came from. Calling it unethical implies there is an established ethical standard in the game regarding ownership of contested content however.. and there is no such thing. None.