Brawler Bloodline spell - Way to keep Monks off Raids.

[mr23sgte]

Thank You for turning Devastation Fist into complete uselessness, I copied my toon to test and got a great GLIMMER of RAID hope from 1% to total garbage, not even a happy medium adjustment ----

 Since you guys at SOE Dev are reading __2flamez site so much, here's the perfect quote(s) from there:

1) "Lol thats an ave of 17dps total =por in that 10 sec span it adds an ave of 300dps LOL put it this way you can do more dps casting combat arts that refresh then waiting 10 secs to not cast anything.Your talking about a spell that costs 500 power, is 12% harder to hit, has a 10 sec stifle, 3 min reuse and does less dps then our normal backstab (kidney punch).Kidney punch is a 33dps atk, DF is 17 dps w 3x the penalties. Anything less then ~8-10k for the penalties is worthless."

2) that is from reading the lvl 35 spell at lvl 70at lvl 70 its 2184- 4056 at 708 STR Not worth casting

STIFLES TO DO that DMG --what a joke..............

[Timaarit]

Well, at least the devs are constant about not playing the classes they are trying to change. It is a real shame that they are so clueless.

[Amphibia]

Very, very afraid of boosting the monk class, it seems......

[tt66]

Seriously, this is very poor indeed. I guess I might have to register on eq2fl****.com so that the devs can read my feedback!(are we censoring the name for any particular reason btw?)Just to explain to people in simple terms why we're upset, if you haven't been following this :For unspecified reasons, the Devs implemented a change in a CA that made us moderately useful in a raid, and then changed it so that we would actually do less damage if we used it (because it stifles us for 10 seconds), than if it wasn't even on our toolbar!That is why we're upset.

[Anjin]

They've made it great for soloing, but useless for raiding:

[Lizardling]

Is it possible to make it .5% or at least a reasonable damage amount verse epics? With the current damage it will not be used vs. epics. Thank you however for the increase versus heroic

[Zhephy]

At least just make it long recast and count it as finishing mob combat arts like Mana burn ... Life burn... so other classess will shut up

[miliskel]

how about give it the 5 min reuse and 20k damage on epics..

[mr23sgte]

THere are a couple of ways to fix this without totally destroying the ability ---but I have never seen them UNDO a NERF -- BUT I COULD BE WRONG - ROFL

Make the immunity longer - like 5 minutes and/or change the recast even with Jester's cap to 5 min +

Change the % to .5%

Max the EPIC damage based on a 100%  of the Brawlers health

[Geothe]

If the damage enters the 15-20k range  (as I think it should) then the recast timer needs to be increased a large amount.  Basically to be on par with Decap for assassins.

[Igu]

People still play monks?

As the owner of a 31 carpenter...I mean 70 monk...I can't imagine why.

[Amphibia]

Igu wrote:

People still play monks?

As the owner of a 31 carpenter...I mean 70 monk...I can't imagine why.

I play an illusionist and a monk, guess which one I've been invited to raids and guilds with....  it's so unbalanced it's not even funny.

[Almeric_CoS]

Anjin wrote:

They've made it great for soloing, but useless for raiding:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Devastation Fist has ALWAYS been useless for raiding.

Personally, I care little for my ability to get a raid invite, and I'm psyched about getting to smash Heroics (I assume most nameds will continue to be immune).

That said, the damage needs some boosting yet, and the stifle should probably go back to 5 seconds, but still....SOME Devastation Fist is an upgrade from NONE.

EVEN IF it doesn't change from now til Live, you can use it as a near-finishing blow to help get a tough raid over the final hump.

[Amphibia]

Almeric@Permafrost wrote:

Anjin wrote:

They've made it great for soloing, but useless for raiding:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Devastation Fist has ALWAYS been useless for raiding.

Personally, I care little for my ability to get a raid invite, and I'm psyched about getting to smash Heroics (I assume most nameds will continue to be immune).

That said, the damage needs some boosting yet, and the stifle should probably go back to 5 seconds, but still....SOME Devastation Fist is an upgrade from NONE.

EVEN IF it doesn't change from now til Live, you can use it as a near-finishing blow to help get a tough raid over the final hump.

Heh, can't do that with 3k...... that's like a drop in the ocean. With all the penalties on that thing, it should do a helluva lot more than that to be any useful at all.

[Arathy]

That < 3k hit against epics is a [Removed for Content] joke.  Yeah I get that you can't allow us to make manaburners jealous with our big numbers, but with all the bending over you've been making us do lately this is the icing on the cake.

[Noaani]

Arathyen wrote:

That < 3k hit against epics is a [Removed for Content] joke.  Yeah I get that you can't allow us to make manaburners jealous with our big numbers, but with all the bending over you've been making us do lately this is the icing on the cake.

Your guild has wizards with manaburn? and they actually get invites to raids?

Seems to me, at least from a raiding monks point of view, that this combat art is going from one that is not worth the space on your hotbar to a combat art that is worth using every time it is up.

You people are all saying it will still not make it to your hotbar, and using it will lower your DPS. I have to ask how in gods name you figured that out.

When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.

I am assuming the casting time is remaning 0.5 seconds, as no one has mentioned otherwise. If this is the case, with good timing, a monk will miss a single auto attack swing (with good timing you will likely not miss any with the coming changes to duel wielding). Now, for that half second casting time you will do about 3.5k damage to an epic mob (assuming you have enough str semi decient amount of str), that represents 7k DPS for the casting time of this particular combat art (3,500 * 0.5 = 7,000 for those that need it), and it also has the added bonus of a 10 second stifle (which seems to be a mistake if it affects epics, but that seems to be the way it is atm).

Now, I havn't been on a raid with a monk for a few months, but I do not remember any of them ever hitting 7k DPS. If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.

Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.

[mr23sgte]

Dev Fist stifles you for 10 seconds after you cast it........not the epic. 

Doing 3-3k damage and being stifled is ending up less dmg than us just chain casting our other CA's.. hope this explains everything for you.

[Couching]

Noaani wrote:

Arathyen wrote:

That < 3k hit against epics is a [Removed for Content] joke.  Yeah I get that you can't allow us to make manaburners jealous with our big numbers, but with all the bending over you've been making us do lately this is the icing on the cake.

Your guild has wizards with manaburn? and they actually get invites to raids?

Seems to me, at least from a raiding monks point of view, that this combat art is going from one that is not worth the space on your hotbar to a combat art that is worth using every time it is up.

You people are all saying it will still not make it to your hotbar, and using it will lower your DPS. I have to ask how in gods name you figured that out.

When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.

I am assuming the casting time is remaning 0.5 seconds, as no one has mentioned otherwise. If this is the case, with good timing, a monk will miss a single auto attack swing (with good timing you will likely not miss any with the coming changes to duel wielding). Now, for that half second casting time you will do about 3.5k damage to an epic mob (assuming you have enough str semi decient amount of str), that represents 7k DPS for the casting time of this particular combat art (3,500 * 0.5 = 7,000 for those that need it), and it also has the added bonus of a 10 second stifle (which seems to be a mistake if it affects epics, but that seems to be the way it is atm).

Now, I havn't been on a raid with a monk for a few months, but I do not remember any of them ever hitting 7k DPS. If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.

Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.

I can't see how you could be a raid wizard since you have no sense on dps in raid. Normal dpsers in raid can deal 2.5k-3.5k Zone wide. In other word, they did 2.5k-3.5k every SECOND in average.For DF, It's a 3 minutes reuse and did 2k-3.8k damage with stifle yourself 10 sec and costs 500 power. In average, it's only 11-16 dps zone wide. No body care how many damage you can deal in "1 sec". What they care is your TOTAL dps rather than your dps in 1sec.

[Geothe]

The stifle is on the BRAWLER, not the epic. LOL

In addition, it costs something along the lines of 500 power to cast I believe.Moreover, it has a negative modifier on resistabilities... so there is a fair chance that it doesn't even connect at all.

[Timaarit]

Noaani wrote:

When determining how much DPS a given spell or combat art does, the only two things a melee class needs to look at are the casting time of the combat art, and how many auto attacks you would miss in that casting time.

-----

Edit: as a raiding wizard, I would kill for an attack that did 3.5k damage with a half second casting time.

Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.

[tt66]

Noaani wrote:

If it is the common belief among monks that this combat art is not worth using, I am starting to see why monks are not welcome on raids, and it has nothing to do with the class.

Oh nice. Totally misunderstand the point and throw insults while doing it. Bravo!But again. It is a 3.5k damage hit that stifles us for 10 seconds. And costs 500 mana.The average raiding brawler does more than 350dps in terms of combat arts.Therefore, unless we are not planning on hitting the mob for the next 10 seconds (had to laugh at Aeralik's suggestions as to when to use it), we actually do less damage if we use it than if we do not.Is it now clear as to why we are upset with this change?

[Noaani]

Geothe wrote:

The stifle is on the BRAWLER, not the epic. LOL

That makes more sense, it just went from wicked overpowered to something that is situationally very useful.

As has been said, if used at the end of a fight, it would still consideribly increase your DPS for that fight. Assuming the mob is debuffed this CA could easily hit for 6k damage, up to maybe 8 or 9k with a good crit. (Ice Nova often crits for more than twice its listed amount after debuffs, as does Fusion). If this is use on a mob in the last 3% or so, what are you missing out on? with a recast of 5 minutes its not like you would be using it more than once on a fight anyway, so the idea is to use it when the stifle has the least amount of an impact (ie, being stifled when you are not fighting anything does not affect your DPS at all).

If used in the last < 3% (usually about 5 seconds of a fight, if that), what are you missing out on? 2 seconds of auto attack swings? Do you have any other ability that would do more damage in this situation? (a situation that every raid encounter has, named, trash, they all have it).

So, at the end of every second or third fight (I am assuming a guild that has monks on their raids is not moving faster than that), you have an ability to do 3k - 8k damage (6k - 16k DPS), and your complaining about it.

As a secondary point, if the fight is about to end, the amount of power it uses is negligable. Assuming you have 500 power left (i can think of very few fights in game where there is even the remotest possibilaty you may not), and this ability is up, you should be using it in the last 3% or so of every fight to maximise your ZW DPS. If regening power becomes an issue between fights, start doing some of the tricks wizards have been doing since T5.

Again, even with a self stifle, I would kill for an ability like this as a wizard.

Edit: just read Aeraliks comments on EQ2flames, and I still fail to see why you think its such a bad CA.

I could see an argument for the immunity to be taken off, much as it was asked for the manaburn immunity to be taken away in EoF beta (back when a serious raiding wizard would have considered taking it). Personally, I think giving seperate immunities for monks and brusiers would be better than removing the immunity all together. And concidering a 5 minute recast, brawlers could just as easily take turns at DF'ing mobs (much as wizards took turns manaburning back before we realised it totally sucked for raiding, or as necros do now with lifeburn).

[Noaani]

Timaarit wrote:

Umm, no. What really determines how much DPS given CA or spell does, you need to look at casting time, recovery time, reuse time AND the time spent fighting within the reuse time. So a CA that does 3,5k damage with 300s reuse timer will do a bit under 12 DPS in a 5 min fight. On the other hand, if you spend 60s fighting, the it does a bit under 60 DPS.As a monk, I really could care less about an attack that had 0,5s casting time and even if it did 5k damage when it stifles you for 10s and has 5 min reuse time.

If that were the cast, Ice Nova would have a total DPS of less than Sunstrike, and no wizard in their right mind would ever cast it. I am glad the wizard community is smart enough to realise how to figure out how much DPS a spell or CA is, maybe the monk community will catch up soon.

The reason recast time is not a factor is simply because while the recast is ticking away, you are able to do other things. You have more than one CA to use. When you are about to use a CA, you are restricting yourself to that one CA for the total cast time of it (and you are restricting yourself to not using other CAs for the recovery time as well, but you are still able to auto attack in that time). Thus, the time it takes to put out the damage of a given CA is purely the time it takes to cast that CA.

I'll use some wizard examples as a demontration (am not able to log on atm, so I am going by some spreadsheets that are a few months old, but were accurate at the time I made them, with the gear I had on at the time).

Sunstrike, damage range of 887 - 1610, average of 1248.5 per cast. 2 second casting time, 3 second recast.

Ice Nova, damage range of 5378 - 9971, average of 7674.5 per cast. 4 second casting time, 45 second recast.

Now, according to the "monk' way of thinking, Sunstrike is worth 249.7 DPS to a wizard, and Ice Nova is worth 156.622 DPS. If this were the actual case, no raiding wizard in their right mind would ever cast Ice Nova on a raid. It would not be DPS efficient (its not as power efficient as sunstrike either).

However, the actual way to figure this out is by purely using the casting time, and totally ignoring the recast. Thus, it turns out that Ice Nova is worth 1918.625 DPS per cast, and Sunstrike is worth 624.25 DPS. As it happens, every raiding wizard in the game will tell you they cast Ice Nova as soon as it is up, in order to maximise DPS, and most will never cast sunstrike, as it is a last resort, and the lowest DPS spell in our spellbook (except for our Bloodlines spell from memory, but I am unable to log on to double check that).

And one more time, for clarification, being stifled while you are waiting for the next pull will not lower your DPS at all.

[PaganSaint]

This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.

[Prrasha]

As a non-raider, someone will have to explain that logic to me.I am, for the purposes of this discussion, a raiding brawler.  (My monk alt is level 3, bruiser alt is level 30.)I have a skill with cast time = 0.5 seconds, recovery time (due to stifle) = 10 seconds.The stifle doesn't matter because I'll only throw it to finish off a mob, and only if it's the last mob in the encounter.On a well-debuffed mob, and assuming a crit, it will do 5K-6K damage.  Otherwise, 4K tops.I have heard of discussions of raidwide DPS in the 25K-35K DPS range.I am therefore supposed to be able to time a half-second cast time spell to land in the last 1/7 second of a fight, so the stifle doesn't matter?  (OK, I'll count the usual half-second recovery time, and say "in the last 9/14 second of the fight.&quot That's an amazing lack of lag most raiders are dealing with, then.  6-man instances mess up my 2-second long Perpetuality timers on my illusionist on occasion...

[Sapphirius]

PaganSaint wrote:

This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.

[Novusod]

The only time this will be "usefull" is if I cast it right as the mob is dying and then I don't have to fight anything else for 10 seconds. This the ONLY context I will be using this spell.

[PaganSaint]

Prrrasha, to time an ability like that to spike up your DPS you would hit it right as the mob crosses the ~3% left of HP Threshold.This gives you time to cast the CA as the rest of the raid burns the mob down the rest of the way and/or Verdict hits.

[PaganSaint]

Sapphirius wrote:

PaganSaint wrote:

This ability went from worthless, to overpowered, nerfed down to useful but not spectacular.Useful but not spectacular. That seems to be the name of the game for bloodline abilities.The changes to this ability are not the reason monks don't or won't be top raid invite candidates.Not to mention the 10s Stifle is not a big deal. At all.Use Devastation Fist right as your Dirge fires off CoB and you swap to a fast weapon for your primary or your two hand(which in all reality you should be using instead of DWs as a monk).Bam.Maximum effectiveness.

Looks like another person who thinks CA spam = DPS./Looks at the sand bag guild player/ignores any input they could possibly have.

[Sapphirius]

All good in theory, but impractical in reality, but what do we know? We only played our brawlers to 70 and raid with them. We need a genious to tell us how to play our class and tell us that we shouldn't be using dual wield weapons.