LU37 and Me: A Lunatics Story (aka WIS vs INT, Round 2)

[CyriexVTZ]

Hi! I'm Cyriex V'Tzur, You might remember me from such interesting threads as Experimenting with the Predator WIS AA Line and AA Choices for max dps Today I'm here to speak to you about *my* experiences with LU37, how I danced with a few different AA builds and how I settled on what I'm using today. As I've stated many times when it comes to my experiments with Assassin AA builds , YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY You may not find a build that works wonders for me does anything for you, and you may not find the problems I ran into nearly as crippling as I did Hopefully the more open minded readers among you will find something I've written interesting and hopefully find it helpful when it comes to surviving in this new post-apocalyptic world that is LU37+ Chapter 1 - The Confession Starting with the most embarrassing point - despite being a very strong advocate of STR/WIS as a viable AA build, I ended up bowing to the peer pressure and returned to STR/INT a week before LU37 went live. From STR/WIS and Bleeding/Stabbing I went to STR/INT and Bleeding/Poisons Compared to my STR/WIS build, I saw a noticeable loss in my aggro control, which I largely countered by swapping my EoF AA trees around from Bleeding/Poisons to Stabbing/Poisons The Excessive Bleeding AA should really be renamed Excessive Aggro - its phenomenal how much less aggro you get when you're not debuffing 1% (x5) of an Epic mobs HPs. I also noticed that the Neurotoxic Coating was making aggro stick to me when mobs did turn to me (again, debuffing a mob is going to produce more aggro) so I quite often ran with Coating turned off. And it was good. No bones about it, I may have been able to produce comparable zonewide parses with both STR/INT and STR/WIS, but STR/INT was keeping me at the top of every encounter parse, something I could never really do with STR/WIS. And by reducing the Debuffs from the EoF Bleeding and KoS INT lines improved my aggro to the point where, after a week of running with it, I was starting to wonder why I had been such a fan of STR/WIS... Chapter 2 - Apocalypse And then from the heavens came LU37, the great aggro nerf lords riding in on their 4 horses, smiting the hate control abilities of several  classes, and turning Murderous Design into "Potentially Dangerous Design with fluffy bunny feet" And it was bad. My guild knows their stuff, we researched the changes and we were prepared for some troubles, but the LU37 aggro changes have been phenomenal - Rangers getting aggro off their auto attack, Clerics getting aggro from their heals, and little ol me getting aggro from breathing. We tried putting me with a Coercer and a Monk (with their new hate transfer and group wide elude), and it was still bad We tried putting me with a Bruiser (for the 20% boost to detaunts including ignorant bliss) and a Coercer, and it was bad, but not as bad Bruiser + Dirge worked out so so, but aggro (and death rate) was still, at best, Apocalyptic compared to Pre LU37 Bruiser + Dirge + 22% Deaggro stacking from TWO coercers worked out the best...but..that was just silly.. Chapter 3 - Salvation And so, in the depths of the Freethinkers Hideout, after dying 14 times despite the wonderful buffs from my Dirge and Bruiser, I bit the bullet and respecced From STR/INT & Stabbing/Poisons I went to STR/WIS & Stabbing/Poisons - Max Detaunts, Max Melee DPS, No HP Debuffs or Debuff Shield, and still respectable Poison DPS. And it was good - I was topping every encounter parse - Why? Because with these new aggro changes, those not detaunt specced were having to scale their own DPS back so much that even a restricted burn with few hard hitters up was higher than what they could manage without getting aggro Surveil was up so much more often, and doing so much more (thanks to the Bruiser buff) that I very VERY rarely got aggro. When I did, it was off me quicker than the mob could hit me thanks to Placating Strike, Elude, or Surveillance. I didn't even need to use Smokebomb, though I'm sure I WILL be using it more in the coming days as a way of saving the poor players who haven't got STR/WIS or a similar AA build that mixes nice solid DPS with ridiculously good detaunts. WIS still has the bug where concealment SAYS it's going to make your next CA do 8% more damage and it doesn't, but thats a minor thing compared to these results. STR/WIS was a viable alternative in LU36, but come LU37, it is my humble opinion, it is the PRIME build. If you want to squeeze the most out of your Assassin, if you want to go full burn 99% of the time and NOT have to worry about aggro (as much), then you NEED to learn how to work with the playstyle changes that STR/WIS calls for To all you STR/INT assassins, you may be able to do more DPS than us, or (as in my case) you may be able to do the same DPS as us 'easier' than with the stealth-heavy STR/WIS style of fighting but you want to know something, you cant DPS when you're dead and I think you're going to be dead, ALOT. Its either that, not using your nosebleed DPS all the time, or being a huge drain on the limited detaunting resources of your raid force - resources which could be better put elsewhere given everyone is suffering with LU37 I'm sure there are going to be those of you who disagree, and I'm sure there's some out there who just find STR/WIS doesn't work for them, but if my story helps one assassin be a better DPSer and less of a drain on their raid force in this new world of responsibility for Aggro, then I'll be a happy camper. Happy stealthin' and stabbing!

[Kaiser Sigma]

Not sure who you raid with but saying we are going to be dead alot is plain wrong. Last weekend during FTH, MMIS and EH I've only ganked aggro once. Not sure what makes you think that the hate changes are so *huge* when in reality they aren't. Also, I'm not sure how can you gank aggro with Wis given the, as you put, ridiculous amount of detaunts you have. No offense but it seems to me that your raid has an issue with your tanks. What I do find preposterous is that you think you do the same dps as a Str / Int assassin. If not because maths point otherwise at least because you have no idea of what kind of dps the other assassins are outputting to compare yourself to them.

[Pokie]

It actually sounds more like you are proving that Str/Wis does less damge then Str/Int since you weren't pulling aggro as much, and are spending more time using all your deaggros. 

 I would chalk your aggro problems up to MT group hate and getting used to the aggro change.  I agree that I'm pulling aggro more then before, but there are ways to counter that without having to spec to a lesser AA setup.

 Does you guild use a Coercer, Dirge & Swashy in the MT group?  If not give that a try and see how your aggro it.  If you already do, is the coercer slacking?  The new aggro changes changed them from a hate buff to a partial xfer, so maybe they are used to sitting back a little and working their control effects and need to switch to a more offensive nuking style.

 Do you use Grandmaster's ignorant bliss?  Did you spec your assassin AA's to increase the effects of the Ignorant bliss?  Maybe try adding a propogation specced warlock to your group to proc it more?

 There are a bunch of things I would try first to lower my aggro before going to a Wis AA spec, but if it works for you then go for it.  It has some nice effects (smokebomb) that are certainly raid friendly, but I prefer my Int.

[Siclone]

Hi I am Silcone,,, you might better know me from posts such as "I should have rolled a swashbuckler" or "why assassins suck"...(and i am just kidding but if you want to get upset with that, go for it) wait so let me get this right, you made a post that was basically Wis is better then int, and you defended it for weeks,,,,,,,but you went back to int?   now you went to wis again and saying the wis is better again?  that is like the boy who cried wolf no?  how long before you go back to int?  Truly i don't know why you spend so much time and effort trying to convince others, that wis is better. you know deep down its not,,,,despite the 50 posts you made to say it was you still went back to int.  now this is round 2....nothing has changed all that much, you will be back to int,,,cause you know the math dont add up, that int is a better dps build.  but hey mabye you are trying to convince other assassins to take wis so you can go to int and out parse them if you group or raid with em,,,,not really sure. 

[khufure]

I have to use my detaunt abilities & ignorant bliss now to not get aggro.  If your MT group has 2 transfers and a dirge you should be ok.  (Best is coercer/dirge/swashy or assassin).

[Jayad]

What kind of zone-wides are you doing where you peel constantly? I was having to do a lot more detaunts but with that it still worked mostly. I agree with above posters it sounds like you have a tank problem maybe as much as anything, not knowing any more

[LoreLady]

I doubt it was a problem with the tank.. He probably was not in the MT group, if he were I doubt he would be having the issue. If your an assassin in the MT group I doubt you will have the same problem as one not in the MT group.. Believe me agro is a huge problem right now, even with an optimal setup. As a ranger though in a agil/wis spec'd toon I still hold 2k dps pretty easilly.

[Ghalslayt]

I agree with the people who have said it is most likely a tank problem.  I have not had a problem with anything except in pick up groups where the tank isn't geared up as well or mastered out or whatever.  Get your tank some proc gear that works on hate.  Hurricanus pants, bracer, cheldrak pants, cloak from Vik, boost his dps too, you won't have aggro problems.

[khufure]

Mortred@Befallen wrote:

I doubt it was a problem with the tank.. He probably was not in the MT group, if he were I doubt he would be having the issue. If your an assassin in the MT group I doubt you will have the same problem as one not in the MT group.. Believe me agro is a huge problem right now, even with an optimal setup. As a ranger though in a agil/wis spec'd toon I still hold 2k dps pretty easilly.

Usually I'm in the OT group with zerker, dirge, etc.  I put my hate transfer on zerker, who doesn't get hate from dirge unless strategy calls for that. The zerker & warlock fight for rights to die before I do.  Generally our MT (Guardian) is pretty solid on aggro.  Maybe you need to make a suggestion to one of  your troubadors to spam jester on the MT, especially when reinforce is about to be cast.

[Itsumo]

I can't DPS when I'm dead, I know this. But I don't die very often. I'm STR/INT specced (of course), Bleeding and Physicality/Poison mix, with points in IB and Enmesh, and all my buffs maxed. My tank group is: Guardian Coercer Dirge Warden Templar Defiler My group is: Wizard Fury Illusionist Troubador Assassin Conjurer Another group is: Fury Dirge Ranger Necromancer Wizard Illusionist On anything I don't need to joust, my DPS is 2800-3500. No, I am not exagerating. Yes, sometimes it dips to 2000-2800, but sometimes it spikes to 3500-4500, depending on length, misses and other circumstances. I rarely ever pull aggro off my tank. And if I do, a quick elude and surveillance drops it. If that doesn't, a tinkered detaunt will get it off. The ranger doesn't pull aggro either, though his DPS is a little lower than mine. As I say about all detaunt lines: They're worthless, since if you take the detaunt line you won't need the detaunts because you'll loose too much DPS to need it.

[LoreLady]

" As I say about all detaunt lines: They're worthless, since if you take the detaunt line you won't need the detaunts because you'll loose too much DPS to need it." I have to disagree with you. I would die every fight and loose SO much dps because im dead or taking agro. Personally, I have found that with a drastic change in cast order my dps has stayed the same.. Now, assassins.. Have any of you found  a solution in changing your cast order to keep the same dps with the extra 8% to backstabs. I can think about your cast orders with the new lines in theory and how it would work but I am curious about how it works in practice.

[Vydar]

So... The extra 8% damage doesn't work properly?  Has this been confirmed? And if it does work, does it work with concealment?  Being on a PvP server screws my Raid spec up, because with the recent nerf to assassin dps in pvp, I've been forced to go Str/Sta in order to live a little longer (bumped me up to top 5 worldwide for most HP as an assassin, a useless trait on other servers, but a godsend on a pvp server) and combined with 62% avoidance and 29% parry, 8200 HP as an Assassin is godly. Now, the problem... Have to hurt my Str considerably to do this.  I lose over 100 str. The only dps the Sta line adds is the AoE which we can proc poisons/CoB with, but that hardly makes up for the Int line not being utilized.  So right now I'm STR/STA spec'd (the 100% parry is also nice, so when our tank drops, the mob aggros me, I pop it, gives the tank an extra 12 seconds to get back into the fray)... but is it worth the DPS loss?  Not really. I'm debating trying out Str/Wis, so I can have the extra Def (avoidance goes up) the detaunt, and the 8% to each stealthed hit... but if the 8% doesn't work with concealment, its pointless and won't help me at all. 

[Brimestar]

Hey Vydar, I live on a pvp server also and I have done the STR/AGI and STR/STA build when I was solo pvpn.  STR/STA was an awesome build for assns in pvp, but after I got all my pvp gear I changed the spec...I went from STR/INT to the STR/WIS build.  I haven't noticed that line working with Concealment, but I have been on the top of the parse and top 5 with this build.  It takes a little bit more work for me to maintain being in the top3.  My life is alot easier when I have my self buffs up (for the Assn tree I'm Physicality and Poison) and when I pop those I parse number one hands down, but when they are down....I have to work to be in the top 3.  But I beginning to think that if I'm STR/INT I won't have to work as hard then it just boils down to aggro control (which my poison line can assist with).  I have heard of something in the Zerker forums that in the expansion that the Devs are considering giving the PvP servers a house item where pvpers can switch AA specs.  Example we have a pvp spec (STR/STA) and a raid spec (STR/INT). Well with this item we can switch between those builds back and forth for raids then pvp.  I hope that comes to light.

[khufure]

Itsumo wrote:

On anything I don't need to joust, my DPS is 2800-3500. No, I am not exagerating. Yes, sometimes it dips to 2000-2800, but sometimes it spikes to 3500-4500, depending on length, misses and other circumstances.

Can you post a zonewide parse, specifically the breakdown of dps?  I'm kind of curious where your 2800-3500 zone dps is coming from. Thanks

[ChildofHate]

Hi, i'm a STR/INT assassin.  You might know me as... a 2k+ dps`ing assassin.  You might remember me as... a STR/INT assassin (because i just stated it and unless you have some hyper-advanced case of A.D.D... you should still remember it)

ya, LU37 lowered the MD's % for us.  Oh darn... use evade more.  weee problem solved.  (I went stabbing/poisons line, just FYI)

I parse on avg a little over 2k per fight on a raid pre-LU37.  THEN LU37 hit.  ONOZ!!  OMGZ!!  Now, I parse a little over 2k per fight on a raid.  # of Deaths didn't go up (or down).

so um... what exactly are you trying to prove with your long winded story?  Aside from an altered play style based around WIS instead of INT, i am guessing... not too very much.  I give you props for the work and research.  Heck, i might even give it a spin for S&G's since i have my free-respec cards.

Ultimately, contrary to your baseless assumption, i've died no more or less since LU37 and my DPS output has NOT been toned down to compensate the nerf.  So either i gotz duh uberestesteresterest+1 tank in duh whole world, or the nerf has been over-hyped.  I have a dam||ed gooded tank but i think the effects of the nerfing has been overexaggerated.

/stab on

[HellRaiserXX]

Timmey@Unrest wrote:

Itsumo wrote:

On anything I don't need to joust, my DPS is 2800-3500. No, I am not exagerating. Yes, sometimes it dips to 2000-2800, but sometimes it spikes to 3500-4500, depending on length, misses and other circumstances.

Can you post a zonewide parse, specifically the breakdown of dps?  I'm kind of curious where your 2800-3500 zone dps is coming from. Thanks

It comes from the fact that shes a guild/raid leader and gets to make her own groups Consistently having the best group imaginable does wonders for DPS.

[Jayad]

Being in the troub group is a big help for aggro, or having amends. Without them it's a different story for a lot of people

[khufure]

HellRaiserXX wrote:

It comes from the fact that shes a guild/raid leader and gets to make her own groups Consistently having the best group imaginable does wonders for DPS.

Heh!  Funny, I got my dream zerker/dirge/illusionist (and I think inq/defiler) group the other day for a few minutes.  I was dying faster than the warlock ever did, and I didn't even take the zerker down with me .  I was even using IB potions and not using much temp buffs. Oh well, doubt I'll get that kind of group again for a while but it was fun thinking about all the buffs I had.  I can definately see myself doing 2800-3500 in that group, especially if I were to upgrade my GDoH to Bisected or the avatar of below DW (to go along with SS).

[Zemial]

Well i added to all my nonstealth CA's Evade right after ... as macro ...so wherever its up it comes in ... so havent have very big aggroproblems And with enchance ignorant bliss ... its a bit better too

[HellRaiserXX]

I think she has a troub instead of a dirge which helps a lot for aggro.  You can still get to 3k with a troub instead of a dirge.

[Siclone]

HellRaiserXX wrote:

I think she has a troub instead of a dirge which helps a lot for aggro.  You can still get to 3k with a troub instead of a dirge.

getting to 3k on a fight here and there is doable of course but she said she averages between 2800 and 3500 on non joust fights. I am with that other guy, I like to see a parse break down.  Even with the best groups I have never seen that done. Frankly I don't believe it.  Mid 2k's with the best weapons in the game, and the best group yeah, but some where around 3200,,,,just don't smell right. 

[HellRaiserXX]

ive seen her parses they are accurate, see if you can get Cochy to post his 3k EH zonewide.  Its definately possible.  Technically there are hardly any encounters that actually require a joust.

[Lasai]

I find this whole topic interesting.

I solo, so I am interested in specs designed to enhance that.  This kind of information is valuable to me.

I find the counter arguments, however valid they may be, boil down to the tired old arguments time after time.. get a better tank, get better gear, get a better group, and SHOW ME UR PARSE.

It would be nice to glean more information from this board than a constant rehash of opinions coming from a single style of play, however important that playstyle is to a segment of the community.

I appreciate the OPs willingness to experiment out of the box, and regret most feel the need to blast his comments with the same trite DPS/Parse arguments.. honestly, some of you could just Macro an answer to any post outside of your playstyle.

Different playstyles support different templates.. and what is good for one may or may not be suitable for all.  There is no single correct answer or build for all, unless they are all doing the exact same thing.

[Bobbubski]

Itsumo wrote:

I'm STR/INT specced (of course), Bleeding and Physicality/Poison mix, with points in IB and Enmesh, and all my buffs maxed.    

Itsumo,  can you post a shot of your Assassin AA setup?  I'm curious what your mixture is.

[HellRaiserXX]

Lasai wrote:

I find this whole topic interesting.

I solo, so I am interested in specs designed to enhance that.  This kind of information is valuable to me.

I find the counter arguments, however valid they may be, boil down to the tired old arguments time after time.. get a better tank, get better gear, get a better group, and SHOW ME UR PARSE.

It would be nice to glean more information from this board than a constant rehash of opinions coming from a single style of play, however important that playstyle is to a segment of the community.

I appreciate the OPs willingness to experiment out of the box, and regret most feel the need to blast his comments with the same trite DPS/Parse arguments.. honestly, some of you could just Macro an answer to any post outside of your playstyle.

Different playstyles support different templates.. and what is good for one may or may not be suitable for all.  There is no single correct answer or build for all, unless they are all doing the exact same thing.

his reason for going this way is because of the recent hate changes making it harder for some to control their aggro. Wis line has a lot of deaggro abilities which help in maintaining aggro. It really doesnt have anything to do with soloing at all as far as the OP is concerned since that wasnt his reason for speccing this way.

[Lasai]

HellRaiserXX wrote:

Lasai wrote:

I find this whole topic interesting.

I solo, so I am interested in specs designed to enhance that.  This kind of information is valuable to me.

I find the counter arguments, however valid they may be, boil down to the tired old arguments time after time.. get a better tank, get better gear, get a better group, and SHOW ME UR PARSE.

It would be nice to glean more information from this board than a constant rehash of opinions coming from a single style of play, however important that playstyle is to a segment of the community.

I appreciate the OPs willingness to experiment out of the box, and regret most feel the need to blast his comments with the same trite DPS/Parse arguments.. honestly, some of you could just Macro an answer to any post outside of your playstyle.

Different playstyles support different templates.. and what is good for one may or may not be suitable for all.  There is no single correct answer or build for all, unless they are all doing the exact same thing.

his reason for going this way is because of the recent hate changes making it harder for some to control their aggro. Wis line has a lot of deaggro abilities which help in maintaining aggro. It really doesnt have anything to do with soloing at all as far as the OP is concerned since that wasnt his reason for speccing this way.

From his original Post on Wis Line:

Soloing - No parses here because that's not what really matters when soloing, but having taken this out on a good few runs out I would defiantly say that this build is significantly better at soloing. I have noticed no major decrease in my DPS. Surveil and Stealth both cast sufficiently fast enough that you can often get away with stealth attacks without having to stun a mob and you can do a considerable extra chunk of damage, that 8% really does make a difference. The defence boost is really noticeable, and Smoke Bomb gives us a real edge especially against heroic or grouped encounters which we could have never hoped to have soloed before.

end quote.

I don't need your help to interpret posts, and If I ever do, Ill send you a PM, thanks.

[HellRaiserXX]

ya but thats not what his major intent for the post was, he was being thorough and naming all the benefits you can get.  Theres plenty of stuff about other builds that are good for soloing most people just dont care, and honestly if you really want good solo than you should go STR/STA, max out parry in STR and Max Health in STA because hit points > anything when it comes to soloing.  Ive spent a lot of time in this game soloing stuff people said couldnt be soloed by an assassin and I was doing it with the traditional STR/INT and before I got really tweaked out gear wise. Its good you were able to learn something worthwhile from his post, but its a little arrogant of you to say what you did earlier.  This post came right after the hate changes and is what spawned it and I am dead certain that it is quite unnecessary to spec Wis if the tank is good blah blah blah. To each his own though and if he wants to do it, doesn't matter to me, it is definitely not the best spec when it comes to DPS.

[LiquidFlex]

/derail Funny how lately more and more people are turning to arguing in these forums and derailing the topics. Not just here, but in all the forums. Can't we all just get along? /end derail