Why use DKP systems

[Baccalarium]

Guilds that raid often use DKP systems as opposed to lotto to distribute raid loot. Ignoring the whims of loot tables,  lotto provides a fair distribution of loot rewarding each player in proportion to the amount of raids they participate in.    DKP systems are designed to distribute loot too the players that raid the most in an attempt to insure the most loot from this raid is available in the next raid. As an example take a hypothetical guild that has 14 raiders of which 12 on average are in each raid as the core force.   Say they have 20 more players that raid occasionaly from which an average 6 will show up for any raid.     Suppose they have friends of the guild from which an average 2 will show up, and of another 50 potential players on the server they fill the last 4 slots. Compare 4 different (hypothetical)  approaches to loot distribution (again ignoreing whims of loot tables and even that loots are class specific) Lotto:   every loot drop is randomed with equal chance to go to any player in the raid. Monarchy:   The raid gives the loot items only to the core raiders. Attendance: system: assuming a perfect DKP system weights who gets loot based on their                      attendance record in prior raids. Hybrid: Guild and Allies use an Attendance system, but pickup members get lotto chance. Based on the those methods the player of each type gets the percent chance of winning each drop as shown below.   Further the next raid (with potentially different attendees from those groups) has the indicated percentage of previously acquired loot available to it.                         Guild           Non-guild                       Chance per Item         Core    non-core Ally   Pickup  % of loot stays in raid Lotto                   4.17%   4.17%   4.17%   4.17%           39.42% Monarchy                8.33%   0.00%   0.00%   0.00%           73.47% Attendance based        6.69%   2.34%   1.56%   0.62%           60.42% Hybrid                  5.72%   2.00%   1.33%   4.17%           51.73% Excel file sylk file The excel file, (or sylk file if you prefer a non microsoft format), has the computations if you care to play with other scenarios.    Obviously the best case is 24 players that always show up at every raid, and then you get 100% of prior loots available at the next raid. **edit**: darned clickies didn't work.                                                                                                         

[Lornick]

It's fun to wax hypothetical, but reality and the drawing board are two different things.  The main mistake you are making is in the assumption that "DKP systems are designed to distribute loot too the players that raid the most in an attempt to insure the most loot from this raid is available in the next raid."  That simply isn't correct.  It is done to give players more control over their characters destiny and provide the illusion of fairness and impartiality.  For instance, say I play a lot of hours and I really want the most out of my character.  I do my research and come up with the items I feel are the biggest enhancement to my character.  I don't want just any raid dropped items.  I want specific items.  Now in order to accomplish that goal which guild am I going to choose?  One that uses a dkp system where I can earn, save, and spend points at my discretion or a guild that allows any class that can equip an item a chance to /random for it?  Certainly the odds are in my favor of winning loot periodically in the /random scenerio, but the odds are also it won't be the loot I really want.

[Ealthina]

It provides reward for the people who work the hardest and put the most time in to acheaveing a set goal.  If I have to bid on an item I know /Random_dude_X wont just show up and win a /ran 1000 for this perticular item I have been waiting and working for.  I am there fore rewarded for my hard work.  People who are very casual run into trouble because they often never have much time to gain points in raids due to hectic Rl schedules or what ever.  Thus never winning any loot.

[StoneySilen]

I dislike the DKP system myself.  I prefer if your there then you have a chance to win something, yes it may not be what you want but you can most of the time turn around and sell it and possibly buy what you do want. It's hard to compete with somebody who has 5k DKP when you have maybe a few hundred because you only joined a few months back but they been around for years.

[Tash 1]

The DKP system isn't perfect but so far it is the best one I know. As ppl already said. DKP Give you the chance to tweak your toon by using the DKP when you want an item and save them other times.

As an example. If I where in labs with my templar and didn't have a good armour. In a lotto only system I would be forced to roll on every single plate drop in order to at least get something. In a DKP system I could choose to save my dkp and let the tanks have the plate as long as its not my class armour. I could save my DKP for things that I thought would benefit my templar more. In a monarchy system It would be up to the raid leader to have total control of how each and every class are set up. And what items each and every raid member have equipped or in backpacks. (And that's not just possible)

SO DKP seem to be the absolute best choice here.

Note 1: Most raid items that are of any value are no trade as ppl should know. Note 2: A player with 5k DKP will have a very good gear and will not bid for the same things as a player with 5 dkp. Further more the player with 5k dkp will most probably be a value for all the other players since he/she would enchant the success chance for the raid.

/Hugs Tash

[Besual]

And not all items drop every time. Let us say the hackmaster +12 has a 10% chance to drop from BBEG. "Hardcore" raider A joins 9 raids and the hackmaster +12 didn't drop. On the 10th raid "causal" raider B joins and the raid gets lucky and the hackmaster +12 drops. Lotto: Now it's time for /random 1000. "Hardcore" raider A rolls a 900, "causal" raid rolls a 901. DKP: "Causal" raider B goes all in and sets 12dkp. "Hardcore" raider sets 50dkp. In my eyes DKP is fairer solution. Has DKP flaws? For sure.

[Jal]

DKP = You get out what you put in. Random = Why turn up to zones you dont need anything from? There are many zones i hate, done them too much and they bore me to tears but others in the raid still need them for gear or AA or just enjoy them.  With DKP im benefitting for coming, with random id just not sign up.  It isnt all about loot in raiding but after you've been to a zone 100+ times you get very very bored of it so you need some motivation to go along.  Im not altruistic i want to enjoy my free time or get something from it so DKP suits me better. /ran can work in your favour sometimes but it can be really frustrating when it doesnt and you never see the person who wins again. Most times ive ever seen DKP being used its never static and the rules are tweaked and changed as time goes on to make it as fair as possible.

[Mildavyn]

I prefer the ladder system. On your very first raid, everyone on the raid /random 100s. Sort by highest roll.

1.George 98 2.Fred 73 3.Naomi 69 4.Hayley 52 5.Bob 51 S.6teve 12

Those are your positions prior to the raid. Now when something drops, everyone who can use the loot, and who wants the loot says 'dibs'. The person who is highest on the ladder who wants the item, gets the item and is moved to the bottom of the ladder. Let's say that Uber_Dagger_01 drops and that Fred, Hayley and Bob all say Dibs. Fred is the highest, so he getse the Dagger, and is moved to the bottom. Your ladder now looks like this:

1.George 2.Naomi 3.Hayley 4.Bob 5.Steve 6.Fred

Now say you're on your third raid. But Hayley couldn't make it. You then FREEZE Hayley and people move around her.

1.George 2.Naomi 3.Hayley FROZEN 4.Bob 5.Steve 6.Fred

Uber_Necklace_of_Doom drops, and Naomi wins it. Naomi drops to the bottom and everyone else moves up, except Hayley, who stays frozen at 3.

1.George 2.Bob 3.Hayley FROZEN 4.Steve 5.Fred 6.Naomi

It's fair, rewards attendance, and yet everyone who attends has a chance at loot.

[Tash 1]

See some drawback to this. First for 6 peoples that's ok but with a raid alliance with hords of players and some times with more than one raid going on at the same time this system will crack very fast. Second the top of the ladder cant bid for nice to have items since they if so would drop to the bottom destroying any chance of getting the items they go and wait and wait to bid for. If for example an relic breastplate drops from a early mob non of the top of the ladder players will dare to bid for it since they hope to get a better drop in the end. So I cant say this system is any better than the DKP. /Hugs Tash

[Baccalarium]

Lornick wrote:

It's fun to wax hypothetical, ...

True the spreadsheet was just a fun hypothetical.     The responses here seem to have  hit the common concerns.   As usual,  I'm impressed with how useful the eq2 community keeps their responses.   Thank you.

[Norrsken]

I actually think it would be quite neat if the devs implemented tweakable DKP loot mechanics in game, as well as a ladder system. On the side of what we currently have. DKP systems would work in groups as well. As would ladder systems. just pick a loot method as the group leader and let the game keep the score. Of course, viewable score. When its time to bid, just go ahead and bid. Or as in the ladder system, just call dibs, and see who gets it. Make the ladder system tweakable too, so you can say when these systems come into play, say, legendary+ is the more advanced, trash is just standard lotto rolls. Or if youw annt hardcore dkp looting, EVERYTHING goes in for a bid. (Kinda boring, so thats why id prolly keep it legendary+. )

[tt66]

Paikis@Venekor wrote:

I prefer the ladder system. On your very first raid, everyone on the raid /random 100s. Sort by highest roll.

It's fair, rewards attendance, and yet everyone who attends has a chance at loot.

Oh Gods, the Suicide Kings system. *shudder*. Never again.

[Catseyes]

Wen we begun to raid actively on EQ1, before using DKP , we were using a NBG or RNBG or GNBG  system . Each loot was discuted by officers , and call .  If it was something very specific , like an uncontestable Main Tank item ( a weapon with hate generatio,or the heaviest plate stuff )  it was attributed to that player , if more than one player able , they was call and could decide who take this one . Eventually roll for it, but usually, knowing what eachone was wearing needing , it was always fair decline. when it was a general item , it was called to the classes who was using the more the item.  ppl was claiming it , and if nobody was declining, officers were able to sort who was the winner. In all case, the rule was simple and clear :  The raid power progression is the priority, and each stuff must improve it at max efficiency. Sure it wasnt perfect, but as we were all wanting to progress and knowing we were going to have loot anyway, we were a very packed raid force and very fair one. I never saw again such spirit , guild before me.

[Wilde_Night]

I am not sure how a 'true' DKP system works, but for our raid alliance, we use a modified version.

Every hour of raid = 1 point, unless the leader decides that it was exceptionally difficult.

You start with 20 DKP on your first raid run ever.

Max you can have saved is 250 at a time.

If you want an item that dropped, you send a /tell to the raid leader with your DKP 'bid'.  You bid how many of your own points you want to possibly spend on it.  There are minimums required for certain things.  5 for legendary, 10 for fabled.

Then, you /random "bid #". (The number you told the raid leader) The cap on a bid is 100.  You can only bid as high as 100 at any time.

If you win, you win the item for the amount of points you ended up rolling.  Unless it is less than the minimum, then you are deducted the minimum required.

Example - Johnny wants the Villucidae's Sword of Shielding (fabled) that just dropped in Lyceum.  Minimum bid is 10 DKP.  He has been saving up for a while now and really wants this sword.  He /tells the raid leader "50".  Our raid leader then announces each person who bid and the amount they bid.  "Darla 10, Johnny 50, Sue 25, Mac 40, Hank 70."

Johnny now knows who he is 'up' against and /random 50.  Everyone else /random's their bidded number.

Darla gets a 4, Johnny gets a 49, Sue gets a 13, Mac gets a 33...  Johnny is crossing his fingers.  He had a great roll, but Hank can take it from him if lady luck is against him.  Hank gets a 45.

Johnny wins the weapon and is deducted 49 DKP for his win.  Usually this is followed by good natured banter and cat calls about how Hank was totally owned.. ya know how it goes. 

We actually find this system works really well.  Especially since in our alliance, everyone matters to the success and we often can have moments of NBG.  Often times, someone who wins something against another will offer it to the one they beat if they could help the alliance out more from it.  Opting to roll on it again in the near future.  I know not everyone is this generous.  But that is how we do it and it seems to work.

[Mildavyn]

Tash 123 wrote:

See some drawback to this. First for 6 peoples that's ok but with a raid alliance with hords of players and some times with more than one raid going on at the same time this system will crack very fast. Second the top of the ladder cant bid for nice to have items since they if so would drop to the bottom destroying any chance of getting the items they go and wait and wait to bid for. If for example an relic breastplate drops from a early mob non of the top of the ladder players will dare to bid for it since they hope to get a better drop in the end. So I cant say this system is any better than the DKP. /Hugs Tash

You will NEVER get a system that everyone is happy with. NEVER. No matter which system you use, it will have it's drawbacks.

This system wouldn't have any problems with multiple raids. You can't be on two at once, so just pull the 48 names off your ladder and freeze everyone else. As for your second point, that's true, but it's your choice. You can sit on the top of the ladder for months not looting anything, waiting for that uber_item to drop, or you can take a drop and get some loot. Also, our raids use a simple /ran 100 for relic. No need to take a drop for it, since it's not the best gear anymore.

This system is alot easier to break into though, and quite often there'll only be 3-4 people who can use any given piece. So you're at the bottom of the ladder... you can go in on absolutely anything and not fear a drop. The other people who can use it may have better, or not want to drop. So on your first raid, you could concevably get several peices of loot. For instance my guardian alt got 3 pieces of Doomrage on one raid, because the only other warrior on the raid had better, or already had the piece.

tt66 wrote:

Oh Gods, the Suicide Kings system. *shudder*. Never again.

I take it you've tried this before? What problems did you have with it that were so bad you don't want to go back?  

[Kendricke]

Asarla@Splitpaw wrote:

Random = Why turn up to zones you dont need anything from?

This is a huge part of it. 

What DKP is in the end is just a form of currency.  It's a system of values that gives players the ability to earn their own "pay" and to spend it as they wish.  This currency is really only earned through participating in the activities which generate the loot that DKP can be spent on - a completely closed economic system, really. 

In my experience, people who say DKP isn't "fair" tend to be people who can't attend many raids, or who just started in a raid guild.  Perhaps the bidding system isn't as fair as it could be, either.  This is only indicative of the economic self-motivation involved that makes such a system more valuable - not less.

After all, as Smith pointed out in Wealth of Nations, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."   It's not altruism that leads to more effective raid forces.  It's motivated self-interest. 

Setting up a raid system around random distribution of loot will not give raid forces the targeted loot distribution that is typically needed to outfit the most active raiders first and foremost.  The goal of DKP, from a raid leadership perspective, is to quickly and consistently outfit those most active members of a raid force, so that any loot awarded provides more value overall for all present.  Awarding highly desired loot to a first time raider who may show up again to raid for some time effectively removes that loot from the raid force. 

When someone wins a piece of loot and the someone shows up again at the very next raid wearing that loot, then everyone on the raid wins.  If someone wins a piece of loot randomly, and decides that it wasn't even an upgrade or that they aren't going to be able to raid again for weeks, then everyone on the raid loses out.

[Tash 1]

Well you can be on two raids at the same time. But I guess if peoples work with timestamps and the raid leaders after the raid compare who looted what and at what time you might be able to keep the system together.

That you on your first raid got 3 loots would be the same in a dkp system since you woul be the only one that had any use for it and they would go for 1 dkp each.

On the downside peoples that would have had use for the items but where a bit up on the ladder would miss the items since they would have to stay a bit up to gain some little more interesting items.

When you point it out I see that the ladder system is most a system to reward low attendance players or those who need on everything that drops.

But on the other hand we still use dkp for relic as well as masters.

/Hugs Tash

[thebunny]

Tash 123 wrote:

As an example. If I where in labs with my templar and didn't have a good armour. In a lotto only system I would be forced to roll on every single plate drop in order to at least get something. In a DKP system I could choose to save my dkp and let the tanks have the plate as long as its not my class armour. I could save my DKP for things that I thought would benefit my templar more. In a monarchy system It would be up to the raid leader to have total control of how each and every class are set up. And what items each and every raid member have equipped or in backpacks. (And that's not just possible)

Most lotto system raids I've attended do not force you to roll on anything.  You usually have a set number of items you can win - for example, one main item, one backup item, and one FFA - and you choose what you want to roll on.

The one big problem with the lotto system in my opinion is that everyone has an equal chance of winning an item.  I've seen cases where someone who attends every raid for the past 6 months loses out to a player who hasn't been on a single raid during that time, simply because of "the luck of the dice".  Whereas with DKP it not only rewards the players who raid the most, but also gives power to the players on how much an item is worth to them.

[RanmaBoyType]

In my experience, people who say DKP isn't "fair" tend to be people who can't attend many raids, or who just started in a raid guild. 

Quoted for emphasis

The one big problem with the lotto system in my opinion is that everyone has an equal chance of winning an item.  I've seen cases where someone who attends every raid for the past 6 months loses out to a player who hasn't been on a single raid during that time, simply because of "the luck of the dice".

Also quoted for emphasis. 

Is dkp hindering the ability for a "raider" to get gear who only raids once every 2 months?  probably, but then again if you are only raiding once every 2 months, what exactly are you bringing to the raidforce as a whole?

Some might say "well if the player was not there, then there would be no loot"  i call BS.  do all raids stop for 2 months while 1 player is out, on vacation, not raiding, etc?  no, the raids continue on.  the raids will still happen wether or not your low attendance raiders are there or not.  is dkp trying to point them out and hurt them?  no, what dkp is doing is rewarding the players who put forth the effort.    So the next question then is for those who like raiding, but have very low attendance - do you really feel that you are putting in the same time, that say someone who attend even 95% of the raids are?  Sure maybe for that one you attend, but what happens when they need you tomorrow since you got that shiney new loot, and you are no where to be found?

ohh ohh ohh - edited - i just thought of another good analogy.

For those of us who work, why not ask your boss if you can only work 8 hours a week, instead of 40, because that is all you have time for.  However, you want to be paid the same as the other employees at your job who work 40 hours a week, because that is the only way to be fair.

[Tash 1]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

ohh ohh ohh - edited - i just thought of another good analogy.

For those of us who work, why not ask your boss if you can only work 8 hours a week, instead of 40, because that is all you have time for.  However, you want to be paid the same as the other employees at your job who work 40 hours a week, because that is the only way to be fair.

He said no.

/Hugs Tash

[Caligula]

Are we talking a simple raid (flat amount earned) based DKP system or a zero-sum system. Out of all the systems that I have worked with, zero-sum seems to be the fairest and has the least amount of problems (also the least amount of unhappy people).

[LordPazuzu]

Shouldn't this be discussed on your guild's private boards?

[lstead]

I could care less about either system because honestly, I don't care much about what gear I have other than being able to do my job. But DKP provides more certainty about reward. What's the one thing I've heard in every single game I've ever played in? "OMGZZORS THE RANDOM IS BROKEN" -- absolutely guaranteed the first time anyone has a string of bad luck on rolls. People would rather have some kind of system that they can feel like they have control over. After a year of frequent raiding, I doubt if it really makes any difference at all in what people get. What DKP systems do really bring you that random doesn't, is a way to reward behavior. Have a problem with people leaving early? Then weight the rewards for people who stay until the end of the raid. Have a problem with people being late? Give a few more DKP for people who are there on time. Want people to be there every night? Put a reward for people who don't miss a raid. Have someone getting into the whelps, give them a 50dkp minus.

[Vatec]

DKP systems serve four useful purposes: 1. They give you, the individual, a lot more control over what you earn as a reward from raiding. 2. They help, at least in part, to insure that those who are most likely to need fabled gear, i.e. frequent raiders, have the best shot at getting it. 3. They reward players for their commitment to the guild, i.e. showing up consistently and on time. 4. They help avoid loot distribution drama, i.e. the neverending cycle of "why did you roll for that when I =needed= it?" For me, #4 is more than enough reason for DKP systems and I would never even consider raiding with a guild or alliance that didn't use one.  The other three items are just a bonus....

[KlaatuuVerrata]

What it all comes down to is Casual raiders prefer Random Frequent raiders prefer DKP In any real raiding guild using dkp is the best way to go. The people who show up and raid the most will be getting the best gear. In turn, the guild will be able to advance to better content, earning better gear. The infrequent raiders may even be able to gear up just as fast as they could in a random guild since the hardcore raiders wouldn't need as many things from the lower tier zones as the hardcore raiders. For Instance, in my guild Most of the loot from FTH, MIS and EH's 1st level are pretty much on transmute it when it drops basis since none of our normal raiders would spend dkp on it. When we have a new member with us, we know that they will be geared up fairly quickly with at least decent gear since those that member will have dibs on a large amount of loot from those areas. We had a guild Coercer who went from all treasured to all fabled in just under three weeks of raiding, sure he didn't get the best gear from those zones...but he was brought up to a raiders level of gear far quicker then if he would have to win a /random on every piece of gear that dropped.

[Frigid2000]

You honestly cannot argue DKP. As mentioned before, the only ones that can argue it are those that only raid casually or never show up.

You have to think beyond your own personal gain and think about the guild as a whole. DKP rewards those who are there, putting in the work and paying the repair bill. They will gear up faster, yes, because of the work they're putting in, as they should.

Would you expect a raise at work when you do nothing over someone who's been working his butt off?  Or how about, would you expect a promotion from having been there a month over someone that's been there a year?

[KBern]

Frigid2000 wrote:

You honestly cannot argue DKP. As mentioned before, the only ones that can argue it are those that only raid casually or never show up.

You have to think beyond your own personal gain and think about the guild as a whole. DKP rewards those who are there, putting in the work and paying the repair bill. They will gear up faster, yes, because of the work they're putting in, as they should.

Would you expect a raise at work when you do nothing over someone who's been working his butt off?  Or how about, would you expect a promotion from having been there a month over someone that's been there a year?

Exactly.

DKP rewards those people that are most reliable for raids.  It helps the raid force get stronger.  Random rewards no one. 

People try to say that they cannot compete with someone with a lot of DKP, that is only true if they want the loot that dropped.  If they want it, and have the DKP to spend, they deserve it more.

Once that piece drops agains, guess what, you are not bidding against the person with the higher DKP and it will be yours.

How would you like it if you have been raiding Mayong....1x per week for 20 weeks so far.  You have showed up for 20 raids.  Then one night Sporadic_raider_01 shows up, the BP drops you have been waiting for, and they win it by a random roll?

How would that be fair to the person that has supported the raid force for 20 weeks helping others get their BP's, and then someone who shows up one night gets the drop over that person?

That is why DKP systems are much better than random for a raiding guild.

[Kendricke]

Saurakk@Guk wrote:

How would you like it if you have been raiding Mayong....1x per week for 20 weeks so far.  You have showed up for 20 raids.  Then one night Sporadic_raider_01 shows up, the BP drops you have been waiting for, and they win it by a random roll?

How would that be fair to the person that has supported the raid force for 20 weeks helping others get their BP's, and then someone who shows up one night gets the drop over that person?

Saurakk (as usual) raises an excellent point.  In essence, he's pointing out that the true strength of DKP lies in how fair it is to those who have the most committment.  The ones who show up raid after raid, week after week.  The rocks of your raid force.  The true stalwarts of your guilds. 

In short, it comes down to a matter of respect.  Using a loot system indicates who you have more respect for:  the raiders who show up consistently, or the raiders who are here tonight.  Do you show more respect to those who have historically stood by you, or only those who are standing by you tonight?

[TaleraRis]

DKP is better for a more hardcore raiding situation, but for a casual raiding guild, it's not the best choice. The guild I was going to join in EQ1 used a very good solution for their more casual raiding situation. They raid every other night, but they don't always have the same people attending each raid. Some people end up having college on those nights, committments with family, etc, and raid attendance is not mandatory. Plus sometimes members may be extremely active in groups, and just not able to spend as much time online raiding. I had a friend who was on a time zone that made him miss the raid because of school, but he could be on for a long time afterward grouping up with the others. So instead of DKP, they have an ongoing loot council. Anyone for who an item would be an upgrade to links the item in a special chat channel that they would be replacing with the new item. The council considers such things as attendance, activity and whenever they last received an upgrade and for what, and decides who it's best for the item to go to. At one point, I know they had set members of the council and then they had a "guest" council member that would switch out, so it wasn't always the exact same people making the decisions all the time. It's not a situation that works for all situations, but it does provide a nice alternative to DKP. You also have to have the right people in charge of things, but when all that comes together, it does make for a very good system.

[StoneySilen]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

For those of us who work, why not ask your boss if you can only work 8 hours a week, instead of 40, because that is all you have time for.  However, you want to be paid the same as the other employees at your job who work 40 hours a week, because that is the only way to be fair.

But I am not working at Everquest 2.  I am playing a game.  Off Topic Rant: This is why I dislike raids/raiders, is they turn a game into a job.  EQL suffered and is dying from it.  I personally think Raiders gear should be the same as a groupers gear but differ in appearance.  Then the raiders get what they "say" they want, a challenge of getting 24 people coordinated to beat a mob & they get neat looking armor that separates them from the "chaff" but it doesn't cause them to overpower group content and solo content.