More Brigand nerfs- an appeal to the Devs

Kru · 07-20-2007, 03:41 PM

Developers, Brigands have been consistently nerfed since the EoF LU. We were the hardest hit class with nerfs in that initial EoF patch (9-10 huge PVP nerfs), our PVP abilities were hit hard once again in the past LU..and now looking on the test server notes, we're getting nerfed even more! Leave us alone, please! You buff AA's that are considered useless by most PVP brigands (and we still won't use after the buff), but nerf the only good AA's that we get as a brig! The only reason I continued to play a Brigand was because I loved solo PVP, and Safehouse was my only hope when it came to me vs. a x2 or a x4 of people. I had to purposely stay out of combat in order to survive by teleporting away (which is perfectly reasonable). But now, safehouse becomes COMPLETELY useless in PVP. When someone "kills" you, you just sit there unconscious bleeding, and they lose their target? Big deal! They can leisurely switch targets, hit you with a small auto attack, and you die? How useful is that at all in PVP? Could be considered more useful in a raiding situation..but it makes the skill completely worthless in PVP. The only other end line EoF AA ability we got was tenure. And that's being nerfed too?! Being reduced from 15%, to 12% durations? So you nerf our only really useful endline EoF abilities, just so you can buff abilities that any real PVP brigand would never use anyways? What's with that? We would have been happier had you just left us alone completely, and changed NONE of our AA's. After that last liveupdate, there are PLENTY of classes that can kick our butt. We are no longer the powerhouses we were pre-EoF. Monks, Swashbucklers, Bruisers, Berserkers, Shadowknights, plus a lot more, can all kick our butts with relative ease. Every LU feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in, and there is no end in sight. Please rescind these changes, and just don't touch our AA's at all! I'm sure any Brigand who ever PVP's will tell you that they would rather have safehouse and tenure untouched, than to have the small worthless AA's buffed by small amounts. This is not a tradeoff by any means, it's a complete gimping of our class in PVP. No longer will we have any chance of staying alive while PVP'ing solo. It was the last hope for anybody who actually liked to PVP solo (a rare breed indeed). People who liked to solo PVP could roll a brigand and actually stand a chance at escaping from huge groups of players coming after them. No longer is this the case. Instead, it just puts us on the ground bleeding to death, so that they can re-target us and hit us for a few hitpoints to kill us. The change to safehouse also helps cement the idea that there is no reality in solo PVP. The biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before. This is just a plea to the PVP dev- please remove these test changes. Anybody on a PVE server might be happy with these changes, but for any brig on a PVP server, it's completely DEBILITATING.

Splintered · 07-20-2007, 03:45 PM

safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running.

Cyst · 07-20-2007, 03:52 PM

It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead.

Roald · 07-20-2007, 04:04 PM

Demron wrote:

It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead.

By the whole nature of PvP mechanics you can't be stun locked.

TBH, i think brigs are balanced pretty well atm.

Bozidar · 07-20-2007, 04:07 PM

I'm pretty happy about the changes.

Splintered · 07-20-2007, 04:13 PM

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Demron wrote:
It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead.
By the whole nature of PvP mechanics you can't be stun locked.
TBH, i think brigs are balanced pretty well atm.

/agree... they can still kick out some mean damage, but they also arn't extremely overpowered

Bloodfa · 07-20-2007, 04:18 PM

I concur with the heading! I would also like to appeal to the Devs for more Brigand nerfs!

What?

SMILEY

Kru · 07-20-2007, 04:20 PM

Splintered wrote:

safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running.

Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac).

AndrewSquared · 07-20-2007, 05:13 PM

Kruhl wrote:

.....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before...

My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety.

Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me.

Kru · 07-20-2007, 05:45 PM

AndrewSquared wrote:

Kruhl wrote:
.....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before...
My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety.
Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me.

I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doesn't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's.

Weizen Heimer · 07-20-2007, 06:37 PM

Kruhl wrote:

AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
.....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before...
My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety.
Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me.
I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doen't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's.

No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.

Kru · 07-20-2007, 07:35 PM

Weizen Heimer wrote:

Kruhl wrote:
AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
.....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before...
My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety.
Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me.
I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doen't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's.
No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.

Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. B) Saying "no other class has that ability to begin with" is a completely pointless argument, considering you could say that about every end line EoF ability for every single class. Completely ignorant argument. C) Since double up now is usually only a "single" up, and the debuff amounts were nerfed once again in the last LU, the only time we have a chance of killing someone in 4 seconds is if they are a clothy that we can get the jump on, when they are completely unprepared. Only then do we have a chance to kill someone in 4 seconds. If they happen to be a SK, Berserker, Monk, Paladin, Guardian, etc. etc., killing in 4 seconds is a complete myth.

Cyst · 07-20-2007, 07:40 PM

Where is the information for this, I can't find it.

Roald · 07-20-2007, 07:53 PM

Kruhl wrote:

Weizen Heimer wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.
Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters.

If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct.

Izzypop · 07-20-2007, 07:57 PM

More fighting less running. Brigs have evak, they don't need safe house to bail them out of pvp combat. Every other scout class seems to get by just fine with tracking, totems, and evak to avoid getting jumped by full groups and/or raids while solo. If Brigs are becoming underpowered and are loosing the ability to win 1 on 1 pvp fights the Devs should take a look at undoing some of the other Brig Nerfs and make them more powerful again. If brigs are not currently underpowered and overnerfed in a 1 on 1 then everything is fine as it is.

Kru · 07-20-2007, 08:01 PM

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Kruhl wrote:
Weizen Heimer wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.
Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters.
If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct.

It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way.

Weizen Heimer · 07-23-2007, 06:33 PM

Kruhl wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
Weizen Heimer wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.
Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters.
If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct.
It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way.

Like I said, a 400 meter circle. And someone saying removal of Safehouse completely debilitates Brigands is the most ignorant thing in this thread if not entire forum. And no other classes end line abilities are a get away free card. That is my point. My Monk has no teleport to safety ability at all. Does that mean my class is completely debilitated?

Kram337 · 07-24-2007, 12:51 AM

If brigs have been nerfed more than every other class, that just means they were more overpowered than every other class. So you've had it really good for a long while.

Ever notice how there are usually twice as many brigs on the /who list compared to other classes? I wonder why... is it cause we all secretly wanna be pirates? Probably not. So why not except the new "challenge" of not having a get out of jail free card and pvp like the rest of us.

Imo they should let safehouse be used in pvp but only up to 30m. At least that gives the brigs a head start at their turn tail and run strategy. In fact, woudlnt' that be more fun? you'd have to use safehouse stratigically. Like set your point somewhere sneaky, like next to your huggies or bottles of milk SMILEY

Cocytus · 07-24-2007, 01:03 AM

What about PVE? Wasn't overpowered in PVE. They need to make changes like this PVP specific. I'm tired of seeing skills/abilities [I cannot control my vocabulary] completely because of PVP problems.

note: I'm well aware these are the PVP boards. I have PVPers, but I don't play them anymore.

Like it or not PVE servers are exist and many of the players on said servers are tired of the changes made solely because of PVP servers SMILEY

jam3 · 07-24-2007, 04:03 AM

does kruhl make a thread everytiem a brigand nerf is coming? -yes

EQ2Playa432 · 07-24-2007, 01:49 PM

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:

does kruhl make a thread everytiem a brigand nerf is coming? -yes

*nods*

Splintered · 07-24-2007, 02:13 PM

Kruhl wrote:

Splintered wrote:
safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running.
Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac).

I guess you can't read my post, and since I have most likely been pvp'ing here longer then you, then I guess I have never played on a pvp server. Safehouse when it originally came out was on a 90 sec recast timer, and when either canceled or target brigand reached 10% health would then teleport the brigand to a preset location somewhere in the zone. I use to have this happen multiple times to me. It was fixed again to only teleport to within 200 yards of where the brigand was, and would not work outside of that range. It was then further nerfed to its current state.

Jeez... I suppose I really don't know what i'm talking about...

EQGu · 07-24-2007, 04:42 PM

well to the OP your are one of the people that gave safehouse a bad name and caused it to be nerfed in the first place, jump in to an x4 fight or w/e try to get a gank for fame and if you get into trouble you are safehoused back up on a cliff where no one can get to you quick enough before you got out of combat and evaced.

you were just a ganker, and it seems like you still are looking for that.

i am now a brig and i think we are balanced right now, with the right spec you can be uber still. I agree that the EoF brig AAs are useless and if you are going for safehouse you are [Removed for Content], there is much better things to spend your AAs on.

SoE is trying to encourage grouping and fighting, but in order to do that they need to take out all the revive points and immunity places.

stop crying kruhl we are fine.

Kru · 07-24-2007, 10:25 PM

Splintered wrote:

Kruhl wrote:
Splintered wrote:
safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running.
Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac).
I guess you can't read my post, and since I have most likely been pvp'ing here longer then you, then I guess I have never played on a pvp server. Safehouse when it originally came out was on a 90 sec recast timer, and when either canceled or target brigand reached 10% health would then teleport the brigand to a preset location somewhere in the zone. I use to have this happen multiple times to me. It was fixed again to only teleport to within 200 yards of where the brigand was, and would not work outside of that range. It was then further nerfed to its current state.
Jeez... I suppose I really don't know what i'm talking about...

You're wrong, just face it.. In your quote you state that safehouse was "fixed" because you could safehouse while engaged. In its current form, you cannot use safehouse while engaged. It hasn't been like that since EoF first came out many, many months ago. Logic 101 would tell you that, therefore, safehouse was NOT fixed to resolve such issues, since such issues had already been resolved in the first place. I'm not complaining about the original "fix" from unlimited range to 200 meters, or from in combat to only out of combat. I'm complaining about the most recent change, where safehouse is being completely removed in place of a death save that would be completely worthless in PVP. P.S.- As for your remark about you PVP'ing longer than me? That would be completely false. I share the oldest account on the entire server with a few other people, and Brig has been the only class I played since day 1. I also solo'd 99.9% of the time, and could be found PVP'ing 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months on end. Even Pheelin and all the other Kruhl haters out there will tell you that I'm out there solo on the battlefield ALL the time.

Kru · 07-24-2007, 10:26 PM

Cocytus wrote:

What about PVE? Wasn't overpowered in PVE. They need to make changes like this PVP specific. I'm tired of seeing skills/abilities [I cannot control my vocabulary] completely because of PVP problems.
note: I'm well aware these are the PVP boards. I have PVPers, but I don't play them anymore.
Like it or not PVE servers are exist and many of the players on said servers are tired of the changes made solely because of PVP servers

Completely agreed here. Unfortunately, SOE will continue to make PVE changes that affect PVP servers, and will also continue to make PVP changes that affect the PVE servers. More often than not, changes are implemented without the developers really thinking what affect it will have on the PVP servers, since there happen to be a LOT more PVE servers, and we tend to get ignored quite often.

Kru · 07-24-2007, 10:32 PM

Weizen Heimer wrote:

Kruhl wrote:
Milambers@Nagafen wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
Weizen Heimer wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
AndrewSquared wrote:
Kruhl wrote:
No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed.
Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters.
If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct.
It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way.
Like I said, a 400 meter circle. And someone saying removal of Safehouse completely debilitates Brigands is the most ignorant thing in this thread if not entire forum. And no other classes end line abilities are a get away free card. That is my point. My Monk has no teleport to safety ability at all. Does that mean my class is completely debilitated?

Once again, more stupid arguments. So because Brigands were the only class to get an end of the line EoF ability that teleports you (that only works while not engaged), that's a valid excuse as to why it needs to be removed and/or nerfed into oblivion? That's akin to saying that 75% melee crit AA for Wardens needs to be removed since Brigands don't get the option to get 75% melee crit as well. It's not hard to see that you're a bitter monk that has no doubt been owned many a time by a Brig. Your input in this conversation is therefore very limited by nature.

Kru · 07-24-2007, 10:38 PM

Kram337 wrote:

If brigs have been nerfed more than every other class, that just means they were more overpowered than every other class. So you've had it really good for a long while.
Ever notice how there are usually twice as many brigs on the /who list compared to other classes? I wonder why... is it cause we all secretly wanna be pirates? Probably not. So why not except the new "challenge" of not having a get out of jail free card and pvp like the rest of us.
Imo they should let safehouse be used in pvp but only up to 30m. At least that gives the brigs a head start at their turn tail and run strategy. In fact, woudlnt' that be more fun? you'd have to use safehouse stratigically. Like set your point somewhere sneaky, like next to your huggies or bottles of milk

Just because there are a lot of Brigands doesn't mean anything. The reason you see more scouts than any other class is because how SOE setup PVP in this game. If you don't have the burst damage to kill someone within 10 seconds or less, your chances of surviving and/or getting away diminish greatly. That's why it's frustrating as hell to play any class with relatively low DPS. Take Wardens, Guardians, and SK's for example. They can put up a [Removed for Content] good fight, but it's going to take them at least 30 seconds to kill you, and by that time, backup is already there kicking your butt. It's the nature of the beast, and it's why you see a lot of people playing high burst damage classes. It's the only truly effective way to PVP in this game without dying over and over again. In regards to how you would suggest changing safehouse, I would have no problem with that change and I think it's a very good idea. Completely removing it and replacing it with something that is completely 0% worthless in PVP is harsh though.

Kru · 07-24-2007, 10:44 PM

Pheelin@Nagafen wrote:

well to the OP your are one of the people that gave safehouse a bad name and caused it to be nerfed in the first place, jump in to an x4 fight or w/e try to get a gank for fame and if you get into trouble you are safehoused back up on a cliff where no one can get to you quick enough before you got out of combat and evaced.
you were just a ganker, and it seems like you still are looking for that.
i am now a brig and i think we are balanced right now, with the right spec you can be uber still. I agree that the EoF brig AAs are useless and if you are going for safehouse you are [I cannot control my vocabulary], there is much better things to spend your AAs on.
SoE is trying to encourage grouping and fighting, but in order to do that they need to take out all the revive points and immunity places.
stop crying kruhl we are fine.

To be fair about this, you have to remember that safehouse cannot be used while in combat. Therefore your comment about safehousing and then waiting to get out of combat before evaccing would be completely WRONG. If I was in combat, I wouldn't have been able to safehouse in the first place....so you either mis-spoke, or you really don't have a clue as to how safehouse works in the first place. What this means, is that I have to be cunning enough to land inside of your raid and kill one of your members, all before even ONE of your members attacks me back. Therefore, a good argument could be made that if I'm slick enough to pull that off, and/or your raid is dumb enough and/or slow enough to ALLOW me to use safehouse, than you deserved what you got. If I wanted to be able to safehouse no matter what, I could do that as well, but that would require me to not attack anybody in your raid..and certainly that would be completely pointless? What would you have to complain about then? The only way to ensure I will get away is to not engage at all, and I don't see an issue with that whatsoever.

Anicane · 07-25-2007, 01:56 AM

I'm with Kruhl on this one, taking safehouse and making it into somthing else is " stoopid" as [Removed for Content].

And to all you blubies coming to pvp servers, be happy with the class you picked, and maybe learn how to pvp before you start crying like little [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content].

vufvof · 07-25-2007, 05:00 AM

Is this your first encounter, with an AA ability, that's just no good for pvp? A mediocre on at best, in it's current state... I'm confused.

07-20-2007, 03:41 PM	#1
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Developers, Brigands have been consistently nerfed since the EoF LU. We were the hardest hit class with nerfs in that initial EoF patch (9-10 huge PVP nerfs), our PVP abilities were hit hard once again in the past LU..and now looking on the test server notes, we're getting nerfed even more! Leave us alone, please! You buff AA's that are considered useless by most PVP brigands (and we still won't use after the buff), but nerf the only good AA's that we get as a brig! The only reason I continued to play a Brigand was because I loved solo PVP, and Safehouse was my only hope when it came to me vs. a x2 or a x4 of people. I had to purposely stay out of combat in order to survive by teleporting away (which is perfectly reasonable). But now, safehouse becomes COMPLETELY useless in PVP. When someone "kills" you, you just sit there unconscious bleeding, and they lose their target? Big deal! They can leisurely switch targets, hit you with a small auto attack, and you die? How useful is that at all in PVP? Could be considered more useful in a raiding situation..but it makes the skill completely worthless in PVP. The only other end line EoF AA ability we got was tenure. And that's being nerfed too?! Being reduced from 15%, to 12% durations? So you nerf our only really useful endline EoF abilities, just so you can buff abilities that any real PVP brigand would never use anyways? What's with that? We would have been happier had you just left us alone completely, and changed NONE of our AA's. After that last liveupdate, there are PLENTY of classes that can kick our butt. We are no longer the powerhouses we were pre-EoF. Monks, Swashbucklers, Bruisers, Berserkers, Shadowknights, plus a lot more, can all kick our butts with relative ease. Every LU feels like we're getting our teeth kicked in, and there is no end in sight. Please rescind these changes, and just don't touch our AA's at all! I'm sure any Brigand who ever PVP's will tell you that they would rather have safehouse and tenure untouched, than to have the small worthless AA's buffed by small amounts. This is not a tradeoff by any means, it's a complete gimping of our class in PVP. No longer will we have any chance of staying alive while PVP'ing solo. It was the last hope for anybody who actually liked to PVP solo (a rare breed indeed). People who liked to solo PVP could roll a brigand and actually stand a chance at escaping from huge groups of players coming after them. No longer is this the case. Instead, it just puts us on the ground bleeding to death, so that they can re-target us and hit us for a few hitpoints to kill us. The change to safehouse also helps cement the idea that there is no reality in solo PVP. The biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before. This is just a plea to the PVP dev- please remove these test changes. Anybody on a PVE server might be happy with these changes, but for any brig on a PVP server, it's completely DEBILITATING. __________________

07-20-2007, 03:45 PM	#2
Splintered Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 344	safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running. __________________

07-20-2007, 04:04 PM	#4
Roald Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,417	Demron wrote: It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead. By the whole nature of PvP mechanics you can't be stun locked. TBH, i think brigs are balanced pretty well atm. __________________ Lickle Milambers Qtoon

07-20-2007, 04:13 PM	#6
Splintered Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 344	Milambers@Nagafen wrote: Demron wrote: It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead. By the whole nature of PvP mechanics you can't be stun locked. TBH, i think brigs are balanced pretty well atm. /agree... they can still kick out some mean damage, but they also arn't extremely overpowered __________________

07-20-2007, 04:18 PM	#7
Bloodfa Server: Nagafen General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,873	I concur with the heading! I would also like to appeal to the Devs for more Brigand nerfs! What? __________________

07-20-2007, 03:52 PM	#3
Cyst Server: Venekor Guild: Circle of Storms Rank: Officer Alt (Raid Capable) Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,609	It's not like Brigands can't still stun lock you until you're dead.

07-20-2007, 04:07 PM	#5
Bozidar Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,292	I'm pretty happy about the changes.

07-20-2007, 04:20 PM	#8
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Splintered wrote: safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running. Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac). __________________

07-20-2007, 05:13 PM	#9
AndrewSquared Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 95	Kruhl wrote: .....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before... My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety. Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me.

07-20-2007, 05:45 PM	#10
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: .....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before... My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety. Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me. I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doesn't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's. __________________

07-20-2007, 06:37 PM	#11
Weizen Heimer Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 83	Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: .....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before... My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety. Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me. I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doen't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's. No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. __________________ Whargoul DelVacio 61 Warlock of Befallen Weizen Heimer 61 Troubador of Befallen Magmorden 45 Swashbuckler of Befallen Phyrballz 70 Monk of Nagafen

07-20-2007, 07:35 PM	#12
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: .....biggest gripe solo pvp'ers had was this game always benefited those with the most numbers. This change makes that even more of a reality than it was before... My biggest gripe with this post is that statement. It comes off as whining that because you only play alone you should be able to do just as well as a group of people. I would think that if I saw a group of equal level players, or those within my PvP range, it would probably be best to always run away, much less a x2 or more. I would also suspect that I probably wouldn't get away, and if so, to get hounded the entire run to safety. Not too sure about the rest of the post as I'm new to PvP, just saying how that particular part came across to me. I'm not sure what makes you think I want to be able to do "just as well as a group of people." What I'm saying, is the game needs to be both solo PVP friendly, AND group PVP friendly...and this change now makes it even more difficult to solo. Before, if you were conscience enough to set your safehouse, AND stay within 200 meters, AND stay out of combat, you would have a CHANCE at escaping a x2-x4 of people. But now the skill is being completely revamped and doen't even resemble its name anymore. You can't call this skill "Safehouse" after this change. I would imagine all the Brigands on PVE server are actually happy about this change...but it's completely debilitating to any brigand who PVP's. No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. B) Saying "no other class has that ability to begin with" is a completely pointless argument, considering you could say that about every end line EoF ability for every single class. Completely ignorant argument. C) Since double up now is usually only a "single" up, and the debuff amounts were nerfed once again in the last LU, the only time we have a chance of killing someone in 4 seconds is if they are a clothy that we can get the jump on, when they are completely unprepared. Only then do we have a chance to kill someone in 4 seconds. If they happen to be a SK, Berserker, Monk, Paladin, Guardian, etc. etc., killing in 4 seconds is a complete myth. __________________

07-20-2007, 07:40 PM	#13
Cyst Server: Venekor Guild: Circle of Storms Rank: Officer Alt (Raid Capable) Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,609	Where is the information for this, I can't find it.

07-20-2007, 07:53 PM	#14
Roald Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,417	Kruhl wrote: Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct. __________________ Lickle Milambers Qtoon

07-20-2007, 07:57 PM	#15
Izzypop Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,064	More fighting less running. Brigs have evak, they don't need safe house to bail them out of pvp combat. Every other scout class seems to get by just fine with tracking, totems, and evak to avoid getting jumped by full groups and/or raids while solo. If Brigs are becoming underpowered and are loosing the ability to win 1 on 1 pvp fights the Devs should take a look at undoing some of the other Brig Nerfs and make them more powerful again. If brigs are not currently underpowered and overnerfed in a 1 on 1 then everything is fine as it is. __________________

07-20-2007, 08:01 PM	#16
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Milambers@Nagafen wrote: Kruhl wrote: Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct. It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way. __________________

07-23-2007, 06:33 PM	#17
Weizen Heimer Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 83	Kruhl wrote: Milambers@Nagafen wrote: Kruhl wrote: Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct. It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way. Like I said, a 400 meter circle. And someone saying removal of Safehouse completely debilitates Brigands is the most ignorant thing in this thread if not entire forum. And no other classes end line abilities are a get away free card. That is my point. My Monk has no teleport to safety ability at all. Does that mean my class is completely debilitated? __________________ Whargoul DelVacio 61 Warlock of Befallen Weizen Heimer 61 Troubador of Befallen Magmorden 45 Swashbuckler of Befallen Phyrballz 70 Monk of Nagafen

07-24-2007, 12:51 AM	#18
Kram337 Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: 123 Fake ST SE, Freeport, Norath 90210 Posts: 499	If brigs have been nerfed more than every other class, that just means they were more overpowered than every other class. So you've had it really good for a long while. Ever notice how there are usually twice as many brigs on the /who list compared to other classes? I wonder why... is it cause we all secretly wanna be pirates? Probably not. So why not except the new "challenge" of not having a get out of jail free card and pvp like the rest of us. Imo they should let safehouse be used in pvp but only up to 30m. At least that gives the brigs a head start at their turn tail and run strategy. In fact, woudlnt' that be more fun? you'd have to use safehouse stratigically. Like set your point somewhere sneaky, like next to your huggies or bottles of milk

07-24-2007, 01:03 AM	#19
Cocytus Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,908	What about PVE? Wasn't overpowered in PVE. They need to make changes like this PVP specific. I'm tired of seeing skills/abilities [I cannot control my vocabulary] completely because of PVP problems. note: I'm well aware these are the PVP boards. I have PVPers, but I don't play them anymore. Like it or not PVE servers are exist and many of the players on said servers are tired of the changes made solely because of PVP servers

07-24-2007, 04:03 AM	#20
jam3 General Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 724	does kruhl make a thread everytiem a brigand nerf is coming? -yes

07-24-2007, 01:49 PM	#21
EQ2Playa432 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 966	Aeeron@Nagafen wrote: does kruhl make a thread everytiem a brigand nerf is coming? -yes nods

07-24-2007, 02:13 PM	#22
Splintered Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 344	Kruhl wrote: Splintered wrote: safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running. Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac). I guess you can't read my post, and since I have most likely been pvp'ing here longer then you, then I guess I have never played on a pvp server. Safehouse when it originally came out was on a 90 sec recast timer, and when either canceled or target brigand reached 10% health would then teleport the brigand to a preset location somewhere in the zone. I use to have this happen multiple times to me. It was fixed again to only teleport to within 200 yards of where the brigand was, and would not work outside of that range. It was then further nerfed to its current state. Jeez... I suppose I really don't know what i'm talking about... __________________

07-24-2007, 04:42 PM	#23
EQGu General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 96	well to the OP your are one of the people that gave safehouse a bad name and caused it to be nerfed in the first place, jump in to an x4 fight or w/e try to get a gank for fame and if you get into trouble you are safehoused back up on a cliff where no one can get to you quick enough before you got out of combat and evaced. you were just a ganker, and it seems like you still are looking for that. i am now a brig and i think we are balanced right now, with the right spec you can be uber still. I agree that the EoF brig AAs are useless and if you are going for safehouse you are [Removed for Content], there is much better things to spend your AAs on. SoE is trying to encourage grouping and fighting, but in order to do that they need to take out all the revive points and immunity places. stop crying kruhl we are fine. __________________

07-24-2007, 10:25 PM	#24
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Splintered wrote: Kruhl wrote: Splintered wrote: safehouse was fixed, because since you were never on the receiving end of it, it use to really suck fighting brigands. They would just engage with free will, and then at 10%, boom, gone. Even ooc, that would still be an overpowered evac. Soe is trying to encourage fighting, and less running. Well everything you said here is completely 100% incorrect. I gather you've never played on a PVP server. I am on the receiving end of safehouse all the time. I have a brigand safehouse away from me approximately every 30 minutes in PVP. In addition, if you didn't know already, safehouse CANNOT be used while in combat. You cannot be engaged. You have to be completely out of combat to use it (like evac). I guess you can't read my post, and since I have most likely been pvp'ing here longer then you, then I guess I have never played on a pvp server. Safehouse when it originally came out was on a 90 sec recast timer, and when either canceled or target brigand reached 10% health would then teleport the brigand to a preset location somewhere in the zone. I use to have this happen multiple times to me. It was fixed again to only teleport to within 200 yards of where the brigand was, and would not work outside of that range. It was then further nerfed to its current state. Jeez... I suppose I really don't know what i'm talking about... You're wrong, just face it.. In your quote you state that safehouse was "fixed" because you could safehouse while engaged. In its current form, you cannot use safehouse while engaged. It hasn't been like that since EoF first came out many, many months ago. Logic 101 would tell you that, therefore, safehouse was NOT fixed to resolve such issues, since such issues had already been resolved in the first place. I'm not complaining about the original "fix" from unlimited range to 200 meters, or from in combat to only out of combat. I'm complaining about the most recent change, where safehouse is being completely removed in place of a death save that would be completely worthless in PVP. P.S.- As for your remark about you PVP'ing longer than me? That would be completely false. I share the oldest account on the entire server with a few other people, and Brig has been the only class I played since day 1. I also solo'd 99.9% of the time, and could be found PVP'ing 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months on end. Even Pheelin and all the other Kruhl haters out there will tell you that I'm out there solo on the battlefield ALL the time. __________________

07-24-2007, 10:26 PM	#25
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Cocytus wrote: What about PVE? Wasn't overpowered in PVE. They need to make changes like this PVP specific. I'm tired of seeing skills/abilities [I cannot control my vocabulary] completely because of PVP problems. note: I'm well aware these are the PVP boards. I have PVPers, but I don't play them anymore. Like it or not PVE servers are exist and many of the players on said servers are tired of the changes made solely because of PVP servers Completely agreed here. Unfortunately, SOE will continue to make PVE changes that affect PVP servers, and will also continue to make PVP changes that affect the PVE servers. More often than not, changes are implemented without the developers really thinking what affect it will have on the PVP servers, since there happen to be a LOT more PVE servers, and we tend to get ignored quite often. __________________

07-24-2007, 10:32 PM	#26
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: Milambers@Nagafen wrote: Kruhl wrote: Weizen Heimer wrote: Kruhl wrote: AndrewSquared wrote: Kruhl wrote: No it is only debilitating to pansies like you who only PVP in a 400 meter circle. Remember that no other class has the ability to begin with, and alot of us don't have track and evac either. You can still kill people in like 4 seconds. Debilitating indeed. Ok let me make a few corrections to your ignorance. A) It's 200 meters, not 400 meters. If you have to stay in circle with a radius of 200m, the diameter is 400m. So he is infact correct. It's misleading at best. You have to be within 200 meters of your safehouse waypoint in order to use it. Let's put it that way. Like I said, a 400 meter circle. And someone saying removal of Safehouse completely debilitates Brigands is the most ignorant thing in this thread if not entire forum. And no other classes end line abilities are a get away free card. That is my point. My Monk has no teleport to safety ability at all. Does that mean my class is completely debilitated? Once again, more stupid arguments. So because Brigands were the only class to get an end of the line EoF ability that teleports you (that only works while not engaged), that's a valid excuse as to why it needs to be removed and/or nerfed into oblivion? That's akin to saying that 75% melee crit AA for Wardens needs to be removed since Brigands don't get the option to get 75% melee crit as well. It's not hard to see that you're a bitter monk that has no doubt been owned many a time by a Brig. Your input in this conversation is therefore very limited by nature. __________________

07-24-2007, 10:38 PM	#27
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Kram337 wrote: If brigs have been nerfed more than every other class, that just means they were more overpowered than every other class. So you've had it really good for a long while. Ever notice how there are usually twice as many brigs on the /who list compared to other classes? I wonder why... is it cause we all secretly wanna be pirates? Probably not. So why not except the new "challenge" of not having a get out of jail free card and pvp like the rest of us. Imo they should let safehouse be used in pvp but only up to 30m. At least that gives the brigs a head start at their turn tail and run strategy. In fact, woudlnt' that be more fun? you'd have to use safehouse stratigically. Like set your point somewhere sneaky, like next to your huggies or bottles of milk Just because there are a lot of Brigands doesn't mean anything. The reason you see more scouts than any other class is because how SOE setup PVP in this game. If you don't have the burst damage to kill someone within 10 seconds or less, your chances of surviving and/or getting away diminish greatly. That's why it's frustrating as hell to play any class with relatively low DPS. Take Wardens, Guardians, and SK's for example. They can put up a [Removed for Content] good fight, but it's going to take them at least 30 seconds to kill you, and by that time, backup is already there kicking your butt. It's the nature of the beast, and it's why you see a lot of people playing high burst damage classes. It's the only truly effective way to PVP in this game without dying over and over again. In regards to how you would suggest changing safehouse, I would have no problem with that change and I think it's a very good idea. Completely removing it and replacing it with something that is completely 0% worthless in PVP is harsh though. __________________

07-24-2007, 10:44 PM	#28
Kru General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Pheelin@Nagafen wrote: well to the OP your are one of the people that gave safehouse a bad name and caused it to be nerfed in the first place, jump in to an x4 fight or w/e try to get a gank for fame and if you get into trouble you are safehoused back up on a cliff where no one can get to you quick enough before you got out of combat and evaced. you were just a ganker, and it seems like you still are looking for that. i am now a brig and i think we are balanced right now, with the right spec you can be uber still. I agree that the EoF brig AAs are useless and if you are going for safehouse you are [I cannot control my vocabulary], there is much better things to spend your AAs on. SoE is trying to encourage grouping and fighting, but in order to do that they need to take out all the revive points and immunity places. stop crying kruhl we are fine. To be fair about this, you have to remember that safehouse cannot be used while in combat. Therefore your comment about safehousing and then waiting to get out of combat before evaccing would be completely WRONG. If I was in combat, I wouldn't have been able to safehouse in the first place....so you either mis-spoke, or you really don't have a clue as to how safehouse works in the first place. What this means, is that I have to be cunning enough to land inside of your raid and kill one of your members, all before even ONE of your members attacks me back. Therefore, a good argument could be made that if I'm slick enough to pull that off, and/or your raid is dumb enough and/or slow enough to ALLOW me to use safehouse, than you deserved what you got. If I wanted to be able to safehouse no matter what, I could do that as well, but that would require me to not attack anybody in your raid..and certainly that would be completely pointless? What would you have to complain about then? The only way to ensure I will get away is to not engage at all, and I don't see an issue with that whatsoever. __________________

07-25-2007, 01:56 AM	#29
Anicane Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18	I'm with Kruhl on this one, taking safehouse and making it into somthing else is " stoopid" as [Removed for Content]. And to all you blubies coming to pvp servers, be happy with the class you picked, and maybe learn how to pvp before you start crying like little [Removed for Content] [Removed for Content].

07-25-2007, 05:00 AM	#30
vufvof Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 24	Is this your first encounter, with an AA ability, that's just no good for pvp? A mediocre on at best, in it's current state... I'm confused.