warlocks. aernt we the master of ae?

[miliskel]

looked at the wizard spell firestorm and choastorm on roughly the same timers guess what.. they get more damage! looked at fusion and rift(max damage) fusion = 12 k x3 mobs = 36k rift = 5k x3 mobs = 15k rift x 5mobs = 25k (dont see that many in raidng) rift x 7 mobs = 35k(only 1 zone i have seen that in a raidzone other than lyceum) rift also has a higher power cost then fusion hmm...who wins there? yet they also get a 10 k single target nuke manaburn every time its up in a raid does abotu as muchdamage as aftershocks and focused casting every time its up in a raid costing more points. wizards get far mroe single target and still loads of encounter dps...please balance the sorceror dps .. please... dunno the names of there encounter nukes / dots to compare those but if i see them on broker will add them to list of unfairness.

[DjVacant]

/shrug...after the last update I increased my raidwide dps by around 200pts and also moved to #1 in the parse (in Deathtoll).  That's with a manaburning wizzie in the same group as me with the benefit of the same buffs...

 The grass always looks greener on the other side...

[miliskel]

i hope we get some ae that is so much better than wizards fusion we can actually be masters of ae tho

[Groma]

Rift has a maximum of 12 targets, and a 15 meter range.  Fusion is 3 targets, up to 7 meter range(i think, with AAs) and 45 degree frontal only.  Its basically the same spell and depending on the circumstances one is better than the other.  I would have said Rift wins hands down a couple months ago, but since they changed the aggro component of Rift i'd say the spells are about equal.

[miliskel]

name a raid zone with an 8 mob encounter thats how many mobs we need to win if we both have it mastered lol. firestorm wins  as ~ 1 - 2 k nuke compared to maximum of ~ 900 - 1400 dps

[KrAzE1]

Are we masters? No, Are we competative in ae encounters ? Yes. Example: Tunarian Throne Room last nite, multiple large groups of vampires. I was not in the mage group with a troub due to my short life expectancy and was moved to OT group with a Paly for amends. The Necro and Congy were in the mage group and we traded top parse on every group pull. The top parse per group encounter was around 3500 to 4200. So no we are not masters of AE.

Could I do better? yes, in the mage group I could but you wont live long enough to finish the encounter and still keep up with them. I even killed the Paly a few times due to dragging a few to many of the encounter to him. What I still find humorous is not once did the necro or congy pull aggro doing the same amount or more dps than I put out.  On a side note, the 2 mob encounters the 2 Wizards were on top.

(Disclaimer: This was only and example from our raid and "NOT" for judging other classes and other raids due to different levels of skill, gear, masters, group setup. Your results could be different!)

[knightofround]

I dunno about you, but on AE encounters I beat out wizzies most of the time. Not by much, but granted, on single targets wizzies don't beat me by much either. Comparing Rift to Fusion isn't taking a look at the full picture. Rift just a sucky spell. Broodlings, Apoc, NullAbs, Chaostorm, hell even Gift does more AE dps than Rift does. It's these spells that give us an AE advantage over wizzies. (especially broodlings) So the problem isn't really with our AE dps...it's with Rift.

[Groma]

miliskel wrote:

name a raid zone with an 8 mob encounter thats how many mobs we need to win if we both have it mastered lol. firestorm wins  as ~ 1 - 2 k nuke compared to maximum of ~ 900 - 1400 dps

Lyceum, 8 Thulians at the top of the stairs leading to Vilucidae.  Big worm trap in DT, 8 heroic worms.  And who says you have to pull mobs 1 encounter at a time?  KoS isn't fun unless you're pulling full rooms at once

[miliskel]

Gromann wrote:

miliskel wrote:

name a raid zone with an 8 mob encounter thats how many mobs we need to win if we both have it mastered lol. firestorm wins  as ~ 1 - 2 k nuke compared to maximum of ~ 900 - 1400 dps

Lyceum, 8 Thulians at the top of the stairs leading to Vilucidae.  Big worm trap in DT, 8 heroic worms.  And who says you have to pull mobs 1 encounter at a time?  KoS isn't fun unless you're pulling full rooms at once

ok ok .. i was tired when i wrote that..thought i wrote "except lyceum"....forgot about dt traps and tbh...i would love to see a guild do room pulls in raid zones btw

[Araxes]

It's a misstatement that we are masters of AE. We have more powerful encounter-linked nukes, not necessarily AE.  In fact, we only have two PBAoE spells (blue icon): Chaostorm and Rift.  Three if you count Netherous Realm.  Nebula, Absolution, and Apocalypse lines (green icon) are by far more powerful than any other class' encounter-wide nukes.  They just aren't PBAoE.   Therefore they can't really be called Area of Effect.  Since they don't focus on an area, they focus on just one specific encounter -- but that encounter could contain 5 mobs. All it actually says at character creation is that we "can deal devastating damage to multiple opponents at once" ... we are not necessarily BETTER at true PBAoE than a conjuror, necro, or wizzie.  But we ARE better at, overall, dealing out damage to multiple opponents -- and that is becuase of the major encounter-wide nukes we have. In fact if you want to get really technical.  When LU 13 came out we lost one single target nuke, in favor to gain one encounter-wide nuke.  We had two of our single target spells turned in DoTs and had their damage decreased.  That was it (not talking about Nihilistics and whatnot).

[MilkToa]

Araxes wrote:

It's a misstatement that we are masters of AE. We have more powerful encounter-linked nukes, not necessarily AE.  In fact, we only have two PBAoE spells (blue icon): Chaostorm and Rift.  Three if you count Netherous Realm.  Nebula, Absolution, and Apocalypse lines (green icon) are by far more powerful than any other class' encounter-wide nukes.  They just aren't PBAoE.   Therefore they can't really be called Area of Effect.  Since they don't focus on an area, they focus on just one specific encounter -- but that encounter could contain 5 mobs. All it actually says at character creation is that we "can deal devastating damage to multiple opponents at once" ... we are not necessarily BETTER at true PBAoE than a conjuror, necro, or wizzie.  But we ARE better at, overall, dealing out damage to multiple opponents -- and that is becuase of the major encounter-wide nukes we have. In fact if you want to get really technical.  When LU 13 came out we lost one single target nuke, in favor to gain one encounter-wide nuke.  We had two of our single target spells turned in DoTs and had their damage decreased.  That was it (not talking about Nihilistics and whatnot).

Lol, a post-LU13 warlock is a joke compared to a pre-LU13 warlock. Pre-LU13, warlocks where the pre-eminent EQ2 killing machines, now we're just suicide bombers.

[miliskel]

well ,  i wouldnt care if rift didnt get upgraded in next update...since the aggro nerf its not a very good spell really...but..i would like another Blue ae(what does pbaoe etc stand for btw?) either: longer cast more damage, quicker cast less damage or same casting time and less targets...tired of having to go to 2 zones where rift is better than fusion lol..

[Araxes]

MilkToast wrote:

Lol, a post-LU13 warlock is a joke compared to a pre-LU13 warlock. Pre-LU13, warlocks where the pre-eminent EQ2 killing machines, now we're just suicide bombers.

I wasn't trying to make that comparison; I was only explaining why I think it's now incorrect that so many people call us "AE" masters.  We never were, and, still, we aren't really.  That was my only point. Since I've been playing a warlock now for more than 2 years I was well aware of our abilities pre-LU13, but alas, the past is past.

[vyxar]

With the direction EQ2 seems to be going with each expansion raids and even dungeon content is adding a LOT more PBAOE/encounter pulls which only helps keep warlocks at the top of the dps chain (where we should be IMO).   I have a huge feeling RoK is gonna be chock full of zerg encounters where warlocks will be essential and we might even get a new type of AOE spell that will aid us even more. 

[miliskel]

New type? O.o (bounces up and down at the thought) hmm..we have damage, teleport, deaggro and neatherous realm types...what could a new type be?.... highlight: oh hell no! not a debuff!!!111!!one!1oneone!!eleven1!

[Deathspell]

knightofround wrote:

I dunno about you, but on AE encounters I beat out wizzies most of the time. Not by much, but granted, on single targets wizzies don't beat me by much either.

I'm not saying you don't know how to play your warlock, but if you beat them most of the times, then I'm sure your wizard friends don't know how to play their class... or they must have the most crappy gear around.

[Uumuuanu]

Fact is we are NOT the master of AE, we are the master of group encounters.   We have more damage spells then any other class that are capable of effecting the entire encounter (either direct encounter or AE based).  

That being said,  the game is designed against us.   Plain and simple.    As pointed out there are a handful at best of places where we really shine on dps because of the encounter size.  IF the game were designed on a balanced note,  there would be considerably more 4 or more mob encounters, both epic and otherwise, but we know that isnt true.  I see several reasons.  One very few tank classes hold aggro well in groups when a warlock is going all out.  Secondly most tanks to not handle large enounters well in general, either due to class or skill, thus the DPS ends up tanking.

IF you want warlocks to parse beyond all others in multi-mob encounters, you must make two key changes.  One increase the average size of mob encounters from roughly 3 (current) to 5 (by increasing encounters to 4, 6 and 8 mobs) and two give all tank classes better encounter based taunts.

Also, note that with the proper AA line up, Apocalypse should be used on larger encounters to achive maximum DPS (and probably death).   The Lyceum encounter for example is 8 mobs.  Using Master 1 Apocalypse + the Catalyst AA, you should be able to achieve 2500 damage per mob per tick.  That is in excess of 20k per tick of damage for one spell, toss 1-2 nukes and you shoul be parsing above ANY other class in your raid, if you survive that is.

[Valdar]

Uumuuanu wrote:

......if you survive that is.

LOL

This seems to define the warlock class

[Malice83]

Uumuuanu wrote:

Also, note that with the proper AA line up, Apocalypse should be used on larger encounters to achive maximum DPS (and probably death).   The Lyceum encounter for example is 8 mobs.  Using Master 1 Apocalypse + the Catalyst AA, you should be able to achieve 2500 damage per mob per tick.  That is in excess of 20k per tick of damage for one spell, toss 1-2 nukes and you shoul be parsing above ANY other class in your raid, if you survive that is.

Apocalypse is capped at 5 mobs. It has been known to tick for over 5k damage in ideal circumstances, so that's a potential 125k damage. Although I haven't been able to break the 4k mark when soloing or duoing and it's been 2 expansions since I got to raid with my warlock. Dps has never been an issue for me, aggro on the other hand is a big issue. This can mostly be fixed by holding back on the other hand. The fact that Conjurers and Necro's have basically hate free dps is something that bothers me, and that Assassins and Swashies get hate feeds 8 times more effective than anything Warlocks get with the added possibility of having hate reduction poisons. Tanks don't generate AoE hate very well, and in addition their AoE hate is random at best. Meaning that if one mob is resisting the taunts a bit more due to luck and you deal equal damage across the board eventuall the mob will come and eat your face. This can't be prevented with the current system for multimob hate, and it's one thing that would help a lot if it worked better. This becomes painfully obvious when the Warlock rips a mob or two from a Zerker that's actually doing more dps than the Warlock in an encounter fight. To sum up, I don't like that Warlocks rip aggro even when holding back so we only do as much dps(or less is osme cases) as the other dps classes. Oh, and for whomever asked. pbaoe = point blank area of effect, in other words spells that affect more than one encounter (even unengaged ones) centred around the caster, like chaostorm and rift.

[LionWilled]

Do the INT line of AA's help with aggro an appreciable amount in an encounter/aoe situation, enough to be worth the investment at least?

 I mean, it seems like even if you do take INT, you are gimping your dps comparatively, and so therefore need the deaggro LESS, that is bss aackwards, totaly counter intuitive. Is it possible to go, STR/INT , or AGI/INT, WIS/INT, and still do good dps, and get less aggro, or is the INT tree just too much of a dps loss to be worth the deaggroing tools?

 Of course some might argue that the extra dmg you can do due to INT, while less than other set ups, over time will turn out to be more dmg, because you live longer/get interrupted less from being hit. *shrug* IT just seems like bad play mechanics to say "suck it up and take INT, or suck it up and take your [Removed for Content] to the mender".

[Supernova17]

Malice83 wrote:

Uumuuanu wrote: The fact that Conjurers and Necro's have basically hate free dps is something that bothers me

If your Conjy has hate free dps they're slacking To clarify, Warlocks have more PBAoE than Conj (only has one pbaoe). 5 green AE's, counting the Mage's.

[DjVacant]

LionWilled wrote:

Do the INT line of AA's help with aggro an appreciable amount in an encounter/aoe situation, enough to be worth the investment at least?

 I mean, it seems like even if you do take INT, you are gimping your dps comparatively, and so therefore need the deaggro LESS, that is bss aackwards, totaly counter intuitive. Is it possible to go, STR/INT , or AGI/INT, WIS/INT, and still do good dps, and get less aggro, or is the INT tree just too much of a dps loss to be worth the deaggroing tools?

 Of course some might argue that the extra dmg you can do due to INT, while less than other set ups, over time will turn out to be more dmg, because you live longer/get interrupted less from being hit. *shrug* IT just seems like bad play mechanics to say "suck it up and take INT, or suck it up and take your [I cannot control my vocabulary] to the mender".

Here's the real question regarding all this...  Regardless of what DPS spec you currently have (be in AGI/WIS, STR/AGI, or STR/WIS) are you able to cast AS AGGRESSIVELY AS POSSIBLE without pulling aggro?  For example...before the update I was specced AGI/WIS and, against a multi-mob encounter, I'd hit the dirt if I rapid fired all of my heavy hitting AE spells.  Now that I've switched to AGI/INT, I can go debuff, dark distortion, apocalypse, chaostorm, void absolution, and then nebula and MAY NOT pull aggro depending upon if I have a troubie or not.  And, even if I do, I can just ditch the aggro with the last ability in the INT line.  So in all reality...changing to the INT will only hurt your DPS if you don't change your spellcasting order to a more aggressive pattern.

I've yet to see someone say they've made the switch and done less DPS or have hated it.  In fact...everyone that has posted that they've made the change has loved it.  I guess I could be wrong about that, as I may have missed a post, but I DO know that my DPS went up 15-20% since I've made the change...how can that be gimped DPS?

[knightofround]

For me, I've found that the most aggressive, highest DPS "long duration encounter spell cycle" is Dark Infestation-Chaostorm-Apocalypse-Void Absolution-Chaostorm-Rift-Nebula-Aura of Nihility-Void Absolution-Chaostorm-Void Distortion-LOOP. When there are only two mobs left, I will cut out Nebula. When there is only one mob left, I switch to an entirely different cycle depending upon how long I think the encounter will last. I always pre-cast both Netherous Realm and Corrupt Gift. If the tanks AE aggro control is dicey I will first open up with our green nil crystal farming spell and the AE debuff. If that isn't enough, I will cycle one AE deaggro after each Chaostorm to compensate.  But otherwise its silly to debuff mobs that are going to die so quickly. Going with this spellcasting order, going AGI/pre-nerfed WIS with Hastenings/Aftershocks, I would usually pull aggro on the first Void Absolution. With the INT lines passive de-aggro alone, I won't pull aggro until Rift. With concussive blast, I queue it up right after Rift as a preventative measure, and I can continue AEing to my heart's content without getting ANY aggro at all. If you raid every night with a truly [Removed for Content] out tank that you know has crazy aggro control, and if you can count on being in the troub+illusionist group, I bet you could get more DPS by going AGI+STR, or AGI+WIS...but I doubt that you would get more than 5% going either way. If you don't have the proper classes to coddle you, the raid would be better off with a different dps class with better deaggro. INT is not a must-have line. It is a gorgeous tool for Warlocks to blossom in non-optiminal group settings, and reduce their repair bills. It helps me top the parse in my guild's raids, where only a couple people get above 1K ZW, and raidwide DPS rarely pushes 20k. I'm specced AGI-INT right now with Props+Aftershocks+E:Distortion, and I love it. I'm waiting for the next LU so I can try out Props+Vacous+E:Distortion. And also trying Hastenings+Vacous+3pts in E: Apocalypse. Testing both with AGI/INT and AGI/WIS. That would be four respecs, and I'll use the last one on my card to go back to the best one. =)

[miliskel]

DjVacant wrote:

LionWilled wrote:

Do the INT line of AA's help with aggro an appreciable amount in an encounter/aoe situation, enough to be worth the investment at least?

 I mean, it seems like even if you do take INT, you are gimping your dps comparatively, and so therefore need the deaggro LESS, that is bss aackwards, totaly counter intuitive. Is it possible to go, STR/INT , or AGI/INT, WIS/INT, and still do good dps, and get less aggro, or is the INT tree just too much of a dps loss to be worth the deaggroing tools?

 Of course some might argue that the extra dmg you can do due to INT, while less than other set ups, over time will turn out to be more dmg, because you live longer/get interrupted less from being hit. *shrug* IT just seems like bad play mechanics to say "suck it up and take INT, or suck it up and take your [I cannot control my vocabulary] to the mender".

Here's the real question regarding all this...  Regardless of what DPS spec you currently have (be in AGI/WIS, STR/AGI, or STR/WIS) are you able to cast AS AGGRESSIVELY AS POSSIBLE without pulling aggro?  For example...before the update I was specced AGI/WIS and, against a multi-mob encounter, I'd hit the dirt if I rapid fired all of my heavy hitting AE spells.  Now that I've switched to AGI/INT, I can go debuff, dark distortion, apocalypse, chaostorm, void absolution, and then nebula and MAY NOT pull aggro depending upon if I have a troubie or not.  And, even if I do, I can just ditch the aggro with the last ability in the INT line.  So in all reality...changing to the INT will only hurt your DPS if you don't change your spellcasting order to a more aggressive pattern.

I've yet to see someone say they've made the switch and done less DPS or have hated it.  In fact...everyone that has posted that they've made the change has loved it.  I guess I could be wrong about that, as I may have missed a post, but I DO know that my DPS went up 15-20% since I've made the change...how can that be gimped DPS?

3 mob encounter: corrupt gift and neathorous realm on then dark infestation focused casting apoc chaostorm rift absolution concussive blast chaostorm and thats alot of dps - wis int speced.

[ZUES]

Conjurors are the best AE class for group encounters. If it's 20 random single mobs not connected then ya, warlock and fury have it.

[Senen74]

Someone should dig up that old Dev Post stating The DPS tiers and where Warlocks were intended to be just behind Wizs at the top of Tier 1 dps, aswell as being the top class for AoE dps.  If there fussing to be done it needs to be directed out how scued over all class ballance and dps is currently.  Watching Zerkers parse in the top 3 of AoE encounters and then watching Conj/Necro's out Parse our best geared Wiz's somethings defently wrong.  Considering by the old DPS tier chart the 2 pet mage classes were supposed to be top of Tier 2 and bottom of Tier 1 if geared/mastered out, this simply isn't the case currently.

[Aranieq]

every time you say "dps teirs" a dev rolls over in their grave...

[Korpo]

MilkToast wrote:

Lol, a post-LU13 warlock is a joke compared to a pre-LU13 warlock. Pre-LU13, warlocks where the pre-eminent EQ2 killing machines, now we're just suicide bombers.

Pre-LU13, warlocks could solo anything that wasn't red, guardians couldn't be killed, zerks could put out DPS numbers to make baby jebus cry, chanters couldn't do anything, blah blah blah. That was also 24 updates ago, and good riddance to those days. The game isn't perfectly balanced these days, but nobody is Superman anymore.

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

The mistake many warlocks make is focussing on AE encounters at the expense of single target encounters.

If you want to top a zonewide, you do it by having very competitive single target DPS, then using the natural strengths of the class to top AE encounters. Aftershocks, and the whole explosives line, is a total waste of AAs from a single target perspective. So is the INT line, because a tank won't usually have single target aggro issues.

You see so many Warlocks seemingly speccing purely for LoA; bragging how they parse 5k in the extremely situational content there then putting out awful, <1200dps on single targets, which make up the vast majority of EoF instances. We are unquestionably the masters of AE; but I'd rather parse 4k on a 4 mob encounter and 2k on a single target, than parse 5k on 4 mobs and 1k on single targets. Even on a group encounter, it's rare that it's 4 equal mobs, so you end up working a single target then too. You can see posts in this thread arguing for more group encounters, but Warlocks need to learn how to do single target DPS (and we can compete with a Wizard), rather than relying on button mashing green AEs on the right encounters to parse high.

In terms of AA hastenings is a no-brainer, so is AGI. I still rate WIS over STR since freehand sorcery has no cast time (a fact frequently overlooked compared to catalyst), and you can get crits through other means more readily than base damage. I've also taken Vacuous as a token nod to aggro management, and also to unlock Enhance: Netherous Realm which helps with single target burst DPS quite considerably.

[miliskel]

LionWilled wrote:

Do the INT line of AA's help with aggro an appreciable amount in an encounter/aoe situation, enough to be worth the investment at least?

 I mean, it seems like even if you do take INT, you are gimping your dps comparatively, and so therefore need the deaggro LESS, that is bss aackwards, totaly counter intuitive. Is it possible to go, STR/INT , or AGI/INT, WIS/INT, and still do good dps, and get less aggro, or is the INT tree just too much of a dps loss to be worth the deaggroing tools?

 Of course some might argue that the extra dmg you can do due to INT, while less than other set ups, over time will turn out to be more dmg, because you live longer/get interrupted less from being hit. *shrug* IT just seems like bad play mechanics to say "suck it up and take INT, or suck it up and take your [I cannot control my vocabulary] to the mender".

i use int line and love it. u can do whatever u want and pull our crazy dps and just deaggro when u pull aggro..theres no if with my playstyle. and the best thing is u dont need to detaunt on solo mobs unless you use focused casting - which i try to do and just use the ranged attack when i pull aggro and the aggro is gone spec is int 47482 wis 46482 i am always last to go oop(unless i die ) and still do quite a bit of dps