what is ment by lazy "targeting?"

[Siclone]

I hear this term from time to time  "dont lazy assist"

I have no idea what it means, anyone?

[ArivenGemini]

Siclone wrote:

I hear this term from time to time  "dont lazy target"

I have no idea what it means, anyone?

Could be either targeting whatever is closest (instead of what the MT wants you to) or passthru targeting where you attack the mob by targetting the MT.. Personally I prefer to use /assist and target the MTs current mob.. and stick on it til it dies or something occurs that needs me to switch... if everyone targets one mob, things die faster and safer.. and that lets the MT swap targets to taunt other mobs..

[Kellin]

Not entirely sure, but to my understanding, it means getting your next target by getting hit.  It seems to apply mostly to the tank.  While it's easy, and usually fairly quick, it has some big disadvantages:

• You don't always get hit immediately, leaving the tank without a target for a few seconds.
• You may not be controlling the strongest mob in the encounter, which ends up allowing extra damage.
• You may be missing mobs that have slipped agro and are chewing up your mages and healers.

I'm not sure that this is what whoever you spoke to meant by "lazy targeting", but it's what comes to mind when I hear the phrase.

[Siclone]

no thats not it, its got to do with assissting,,,dont lazy assist, I think I should have said it that way my bad

someone that knows the game and been raiding for a bit, I am sure would know. 

[ArivenGemini]

Siclone wrote:

no thats not it, its got to do with assissting,,,dont lazy assist, I think I should have said it that way my bad

someone that knows the game and been raiding for a bit, I am sure would know. 

Looks like it is prolly what I mentioned before.. targeting the mob by targetting the MT and using passthru.

[Siclone]

so whats the difference if I target the MA to attack the mob or use /assist "Ma's name"?

[Haciv]

Siclone wrote:

so whats the difference if I target the MA to attack the mob or use /assist "Ma's name"?

Cuz if you target the MA and he/she gets charmed then you will insta-corpse that player.   It helps a lot for mobs like eyes in DT and courtesons in MMIS.  "Lazy" assisting works well most of the time though, on the majority of encounters in raids.

[ArivenGemini]

Haciv wrote:

Siclone wrote:

so whats the difference if I target the MA to attack the mob or use /assist "Ma's name"?

Cuz if you target the MA and he/she gets charmed then you will insta-corpse that player.   It helps a lot for mobs like eyes in DT and courtesons in MMIS.  "Lazy" assisting works well most of the time though, on the majority of encounters in raids.

yeah a raid is a different animal than a group.. assuming there is an assigned MA...  for people who havent gotten into the habit of tracking their targets properly and using assist correctly for the encounter, it helps keep people on the right target and not dying from aggroing the wrong epic mob..

[tracheaspider]

Siclone wrote:

so whats the difference if I target the MA to attack the mob or use /assist "Ma's name"?

The biggest difference is that if you target the mob by /assisting, you can a) see who the mob is targeting and b) cast beneficial spells through the mob, such as intercepts, heals, etc.  It also lets you see immediately when you have aggro so you can run to the MT, cast deaggro or FD or whatever to get it off you and out of the raid.

True assisting isn't hard, it just takes a little bit of concentration.  Make an /assist Soandso macro, stick it on your primary (or secondary or tertiary) hotbar, and bind it to a key that's easy to hit in combat (if you don't want to use the default keybind).  Then hit it every time the assist is called.  You can also assign an assist button that will assist your current target.  (It's not a macro, there's an actual option for it in Controls > Command Keys.)

When you should /assist is somewhat situational.  Raiding my warden, I'm usually in MT group and usually targeting through the MT.  Raiding my coercer, I'm either assisting the MA for (pitiful) DPS or running crowd control on adds or mitigating damage with tactical stuns.  Both classes are pretty exceptional that way, though.  But any time you're asked to assist a specific person, you should certainly do so.

Hope that helps some.

[Cathars]

Siclone wrote:

so whats the difference if I target the MA to attack the mob or use /assist "Ma's name"?

In addition to whats been mentioned, theres the fact that the MA may have to switch targets for some reason and you don't want the raid switching with him.  When assist is called on a target the raid needs to stay with that target unless another assist call is made.

[Spydaer]

I guess I don't understand.  If the MA is called to change targets, why wouldn't want the raid switching with them? 

[slashalot]

so by /assist 'toon' i will stay on that mob no matter what the 'toon' targets? (for taunting other mobs)

now as a healer should i not target 'main mob' and heal thru it?

[Kaleyen]

Spydaer wrote:

I guess I don't understand.  If the MA is called to change targets, why wouldn't want the raid switching with them? 

The MT has to switch targets in raiding sometimes to throw a single target taunt on a mob.  The raid leader doesn't want the DPS to switch because then you'd have 3-4 mobs with half health or lower instead of 2 dead mobs.

[ArivenGemini]

slashalot wrote:

so by /assist 'toon' i will stay on that mob no matter what the 'toon' targets? (for taunting other mobs)

now as a healer should i not target 'main mob' and heal thru it?

That is a situational thing..  for me, if my primary job as healer is keeping the group alive.. yes I tend to target the mob.. but if my primary job is keeping the tank alive I tend to target the tank... less time switching targets means less death.. when you /assist (someone)   it changes your target to whatever they were targeting..   when you /target (someone)   it changes your target to the (someone). In a group setting, if all the DPS switches to the target via /assist that allows the tank to change targets to pick up adds, taunt individual mobs,  rescue the healer or overanxious DPS all while the FIRST mob that (theoretically) has the most taunts on it gets burned down by the group... If everyone just targets the tank that means when he has to change targets a couple things happen... first off.. the DPS is no longer burning a single mob so encounters take longer.. secondly if the tank switched to add some single taunts to other mobs, all the DPS is now chasing the aggro that the tank is trying to build up.. negating some or all of the extra hate he is generating on those extra mobs..  third, if the tank messes up and targets the wrong mob by accident.. right as that caster launches his nuke.. you now have an add... In my opinion all of these add up to all the normal group members using /assist on the tank to swap to his target.. and staying on it til it dies or the tank calls for a change..  then when that mob dies, /assist to his new target..  ideally the tank will swap just before death of the first mob which allows him a moment or two of building aggro before everyone else swaps. In a situation with an MA.. (usually raids, but sometimes in groups too).. this is simplified by the fact that the MA doesnt have to swap targets to taunt extras like the MT does...  and in fact sometimes has to respond fast to burn adds down.. so in that situation it can usually be done with targetting the MA and not worrying.. Except.. when there are crowd control types or someone who can rescue a squishy or a healer... then they can benefit from the /assist method..  for example on my brigand I can use my pray for mercy line to usually save someone who drew aggro... but only if I can target them direct or via targetting the mob who is looking at them..  if I passthru on the MA I cant do that... so when it starts looking like people keep drawing aggro I start swapping targets via assist.. What I also do to ensure I stick either with targetting the MA or with /assist'ing the ma (whichever I need to do) is to make a macro for my first combat art... and in there for the first line i have /assist (ma)  or /target (ma) as needed..    combined with a hotkey to target and a hotkey to assist and I can jump back and forth as needed.

[MullenSkywatcher]

I almost always target the Main Tank unless one of the following conditions is present: 1.  Memwiping mob (ex: Tarinax, heal through the mob) 2.  Specific Raid Instructions (usually target Main Assist) I don't normally set an /assist command for this, but rather target them through the raid window.  As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly (although varying levels of difficulty associated with each), but a DPSer would likely be more in tune with the subtleties.

[Kaleyen]

There's a huge difference, specially to the MT as Ariven pointed out in his post.

[TheBu]

Spydaer wrote:

I guess I don't understand.  If the MA is called to change targets, why wouldn't want the raid switching with them? 

The ma will ask you to "assist on mob x" using the assist ma  will allow u to stay on that mob untill it is dead. The ma may as other rolls to play..  But also the ma may target around to find the right target. If u did not assist ma   then u would be attacking all thoz mobs that they are targeting.

Each time they Call assist.  . u should be pushing the macro again. that takes effort. not to do that would be lazy.

[Spydaer]

So, again, unless I am missing something....

If the MA has some other role to play, other than MAing, it would seem a relatively easy procedure to say, "Hey, someone other than the MA, do ".  If someone tells the MA to switch targets, I am trying to come up with a scenario in which the MA is told to change targets, and the rest of the raid does not.    If you MA is jumping around switching targets all the time due to some other role, then sheesh, shouldn't someone else be the MA?  I have this vision of the coercer being the MA or something, chuckle.

Now, as for targetting the 'wrong' target because the MA has in targetted for a time, it seems as if that it just as big a problem if you hit the assist when they are targetted on the wrong one.  Now, you'll be targetted on the wrong one, and you won't even know it.  (And, noone else will know either, up til you get aggro from it)  I understand your scenario of calling for the assist, but from what I see, people are pretty dang quick to jump in there with DPS.  So, our MA tends to wait a few secs to acquire....thus...people wait a few secs to get a target.  Conceivably that is lazy, but it also takes into account the reality of people itching to get in there and mix it up.

[Jal]

The basic answer is you have two types of raids in general. Raid with MA everyone targets them they are purely there to point at things. Raid with MA which people must /assist so you can see if you have agro etc Neither is wrong or lazy but both have benefits and drawbacks. Using passthrough makes life easier for dps as we dont have to spam a macro until the ma actually targets something, using /assist is better for if you pull agro so you can move to the tank etc and heal/use abilities through the mob. The MA should not be 'doing other things' if the raid doesnt have an MA and is using the MT then /assist is the better method as the tank will likely have to change targets.

[Kaleyen]

Well the job of the MA is to wait a few moments so that the MT has the encounter locked down.  So when there's a pull you don't want the MA to be on something right away. MT pulls, MA waits a moment...MA gets their target and says "Target " and then the DPS hits their assist buttons once target is called...mob dies...rinse and repeat til encounter is dead.

[ArivenGemini]

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

I almost always target the Main Tank unless one of the following conditions is present: 1.  Memwiping mob (ex: Tarinax, heal through the mob) 2.  Specific Raid Instructions (usually target Main Assist) I don't normally set an /assist command for this, but rather target them through the raid window.  As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly (although varying levels of difficulty associated with each), but a DPSer would likely be more in tune with the subtleties.

Healers have more to deal with... I play both a warden and a brigand.. in heal mode like i mentioned it is situational.. if I am the sole healer of a group, I tend to target the mob (more often on a pickup group than a steady one).. just so I can be healing whoever the mob wants to kill..  but on those occaisions when I am there just to keep the tank alive (whether as one of the primary healers in a raid, or in a group) I tend to target the tank..  mostly I choose which I target based on speed of reactions.. if I have to keep JUST the tank alive with rare spot heals on other people.. then yeah, they can wait a moment for me to retarget... Crowd control also moves into a different setup since they have to deal with more than simply DPSing...  but, generally in a group and barring circumstances that prevent it... if all the regular DPS uses /assist off the tank and stick on a single target til its dead, then /assist again.. stuff will die faster, more efficiently, and safer... Raids move into a different category than simple groups, just because of extra complexity of encounters.. hence the MA setup used by most..

[whytakemine]

Spydaer wrote:

So, again, unless I am missing something....

If the MA has some other role to play, other than MAing, it would seem a relatively easy procedure to say, "Hey, someone other than the MA, do ".  If someone tells the MA to switch targets, I am trying to come up with a scenario in which the MA is told to change targets, and the rest of the raid does not.    If you MA is jumping around switching targets all the time due to some other role, then sheesh, shouldn't someone else be the MA?  I have this vision of the coercer being the MA or something, chuckle.

I think it's less that the MA might be doing something else than that they may be switching targets before the current target is dead.

There's basically two ways to run an MA, either the MA picks the target, or the MT picks the target and the MA just calls the assist.  If the MA is picking the target, they need to switch targets a couple of seconds before the current mob dies, and you don't want the whole raid switching with them.

If the MT if picking the target it's less of an issue, but dps should still be /assist'ing rather than pass through targeting for reasons already mentioned (primarily to tell who has aggro, but also in case of charm or to use special abilities).  If you try to have your dps /assist just on certain mobs (memwiping, or nasty frontal AoE) they won't be used to it and someone will probably screw up.

Spydaer wrote:

Now, as for targetting the 'wrong' target because the MA has in targetted for a time, it seems as if that it just as big a problem if you hit the assist when they are targetted on the wrong one.  Now, you'll be targetted on the wrong one, and you won't even know it.  (And, noone else will know either, up til you get aggro from it)  I understand your scenario of calling for the assist, but from what I see, people are pretty dang quick to jump in there with DPS.  So, our MA tends to wait a few secs to acquire....thus...people wait a few secs to get a target.  Conceivably that is lazy, but it also takes into account the reality of people itching to get in there and mix it up.

You only switch targets when the MA tells you to.  They won't tell you to assist unless they are targeting what they want you to kill. 

I heavily disagree with people that hold back their dps for a few seconds to "establish aggro".  Everyone should be in there ASAP debuffing.  If they are nuking and pulling aggro immediately your raidleader just needs to have a quiet word with them about how to play their class in a raid.

[bleap]

Siclone wrote:

I hear this term from time to time  "dont lazy assist"

I have no idea what it means, anyone?

I have heard it used to describe a pet class that targets the tank and then sends in his pet and does nothing else....

[Bantel]

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

...As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly

1) If you click on the MA (either directly or through the raid window makes no difference) then your target will be the MA, and you will be damaging whatever target the MA has, even when they switch targets. This is "Lazy Assist", because you never need to re-assist.

2) If you /assist the MA, then your target wil be the mob that the MA had targeted AT THAT MOMENT in time. If they subsequently switch to a different target, you won't, until you click the /assist macro again. This is "Active Assist", as you only click /assist when instructed to do so.

 The second is almost always the preferred methodology in a raid setting IMHO. There are of course exceptions.

A lot depends on how many of your raiders are actually paying attention to ventrillo/raid chat etc

[Cathars]

Bantel wrote:

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

...As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly

1) If you click on the MA (either directly or through the raid window makes no difference) then your target will be the MA, and you will be damaging whatever target the MA has, even when they switch targets. This is "Lazy Assist", because you never need to re-assist.

2) If you /assist the MA, then your target wil be the mob that the MA had targeted AT THAT MOMENT in time. If they subsequently switch to a different target, you won't, until you click the /assist macro again. This is "Active Assist", as you only click /assist when instructed to do so.

 The second is almost always the preferred methodology in a raid setting IMHO. There are of course exceptions.

A lot depends on how many of your raiders are actually paying attention to ventrillo/raid chat etc

Theres a nice concise answer.  Bolded the important part for emphasis.

[grish]

Our MA does pulling, and if he is chain pulling and cycles target and some bonehead is lazy assisting and flings and arrow or wiggles a finger here comes the next encounter. Our MA pulls and keeps the raid on the best target at all times, if for some reason he has to change targets to rescue an over burning mage he doesnt need the entire raid switching targets. Stay on the target and get it dead, you cant do that if you are lazy assisting.

[Mithru]

Bantel wrote:

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

...As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly

1) If you click on the MA (either directly or through the raid window makes no difference) then your target will be the MA, and you will be damaging whatever target the MA has, even when they switch targets. This is "Lazy Assist", because you never need to re-assist.

2) If you /assist the MA, then your target wil be the mob that the MA had targeted AT THAT MOMENT in time. If they subsequently switch to a different target, you won't, until you click the /assist macro again. This is "Active Assist", as you only click /assist when instructed to do so.

 The second is almost always the preferred methodology in a raid setting IMHO. There are of course exceptions.

A lot depends on how many of your raiders are actually paying attention to ventrillo/raid chat etc

Yep and EQ2 has actually produced a lot of lazy assisters. During normal grouping if you're not being challenged it doesn't matter but the habits are formed. Of the handful of things I enjoyed about my brief divergence into Vanguard was the return to true assisting. They added the nice wrinkle of still having two targets one offensive and one defensive but without any implied targeting. Pretty good system that balanced convenience with good habits.

[Siclone]

Mithrull wrote:

Bantel wrote:

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

...As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly

1) If you click on the MA (either directly or through the raid window makes no difference) then your target will be the MA, and you will be damaging whatever target the MA has, even when they switch targets. This is "Lazy Assist", because you never need to re-assist.

2) If you /assist the MA, then your target wil be the mob that the MA had targeted AT THAT MOMENT in time. If they subsequently switch to a different target, you won't, until you click the /assist macro again. This is "Active Assist", as you only click /assist when instructed to do so.

 The second is almost always the preferred methodology in a raid setting IMHO. There are of course exceptions.

A lot depends on how many of your raiders are actually paying attention to ventrillo/raid chat etc

Yep and EQ2 has actually produced a lot of lazy assisters. During normal grouping if you're not being challenged it doesn't matter but the habits are formed. Of the handful of things I enjoyed about my brief divergence into Vanguard was the return to true assisting. They added the nice wrinkle of still having two targets one offensive and one defensive but without any implied targeting. Pretty good system that balanced convenience with good habits.

And why exactly is lazing assissting a bad habbit? 

If your not pulling agro off the tank, I dont see whats wrong with it.  Its allot easier and less button spamming.

I have been lazy asssiting for 2 months on my raids, its just easier, now if they found out about it, then tell me to make a marco,,,,,I just dont see the point, I already have two many buttons to push

[Mareth]

Siclone wrote:

Mithrull wrote:

Bantel wrote:

MullenSkywatcher wrote:

...As far as I know, there's no difference between /assist and targeting them through the group/raid window or by clicking on them directly

1) If you click on the MA (either directly or through the raid window makes no difference) then your target will be the MA, and you will be damaging whatever target the MA has, even when they switch targets. This is "Lazy Assist", because you never need to re-assist.

2) If you /assist the MA, then your target wil be the mob that the MA had targeted AT THAT MOMENT in time. If they subsequently switch to a different target, you won't, until you click the /assist macro again. This is "Active Assist", as you only click /assist when instructed to do so.

 The second is almost always the preferred methodology in a raid setting IMHO. There are of course exceptions.

A lot depends on how many of your raiders are actually paying attention to ventrillo/raid chat etc

Yep and EQ2 has actually produced a lot of lazy assisters. During normal grouping if you're not being challenged it doesn't matter but the habits are formed. Of the handful of things I enjoyed about my brief divergence into Vanguard was the return to true assisting. They added the nice wrinkle of still having two targets one offensive and one defensive but without any implied targeting. Pretty good system that balanced convenience with good habits.

And why exactly is lazing assissting a bad habbit? 

If your not pulling agro off the tank, I dont see whats wrong with it.  Its allot easier and less button spamming.

I have been lazy asssiting for 2 months on my raids, its just easier, now if they found out about it, then tell me to make a marco,,,,,I just dont see the point, I already have two many buttons to push

Which class do you play? As a wizard, it'd be a bit catastrophic for my hp pool, if I were to cast nova on the wrong mob, due to targetting through someone, and not using /assist and thus be in control of which mob I'm targetting myself. Not to mention that I can cast Iceshield through the mob, at whoever he's hitting (though let's hope it's the MT). It's always fun if a class like a ranger does lazy assisting, and whoever he's targetting through just quickly tabs through nearby mobs to look for potential ads, and suddenly someone has attacked them...

[ArivenGemini]

Siclone wrote:

And why exactly is lazing assissting a bad habbit? 

If your not pulling agro off the tank, I dont see whats wrong with it.  Its allot easier and less button spamming.

I have been lazy asssiting for 2 months on my raids, its just easier, now if they found out about it, then tell me to make a marco,,,,,I just dont see the point, I already have two many buttons to push

I have 7 hotbars, but I still make room for a "target MA/MT" and a "assist MA/MT" button. two reasons: First: if you are targetting the MT, and he switches targets to taunt an add to build some hate on it, you are chasing his aggro levels at the same time.  Which puts you higher on the hate list than need be, meaning you can pull aggro faster and easier than if you stuck on the designated mob. secondly: if ALL the dps focuses on a single mob until it drops, instead of switching when the MT switches to taunt adds, stuff WILL die faster, people will be safer (less aggro) which means less debt, less repair costs and a faster encounter.  Do you REALLY like to spend even MORE time killing stuff? Now lets look at the MA angle instead of the MT... admittedly you wont have to worry about chasing the MTs aggro, but you DO have to worry about adds.. the MA may want to change targets ahead of time to ensure more consistant DPS.. and if everyone sticks on the mob they were told to, it gives the MA a margin of time in which to pick the next target.. so as soon as the current mob drops he is already on the next target and everyone can /assist at that time..  the danger comes into play when the MA mistargets and points at that next killer mob down the hall.. and you fire your big nuke.. bam, dead caster, and likely a wipe if people are not on the ball.  Which brings us back to MORE debt and repair costs. So yeah, I suggest you put a spot on your hotbars for targeting the MT/MA and for assisting.