Improvements to the Monk

[DynamicPerforman]

We monks feel downtrodden, forgotten amonst the many classes who have definitive roles in t7 raiding.  We feel that some changes are in order to improve us, and we understand that there is a real fear of unbalancing our already fragile system.  To this end we propose some things that we feel would improve the monk class for the better, while at the same time not eclipsing other classes already defined roles:

• Please note this list is not finalized in its goal of continued balance.  We want to work together with the developers to decrease the perception of the monk as useless.

1. Increase our ability to debuff, perhaps with more "pressure point" type attacks
2. Increase our defense debuff to 25.
3. Allow our stuns to affect epics like they did in the good old days.
4. Give us a group wide avoidence buff.
5. Increase our CA damage
6. Include deflection and parry into our defense debuff
7. An AA that grants the Monk the ability to wear chain armor.
8. Give us a bigger boost from agility
9. Increase our autoattack dps
10. Create some more easier (KoS) to attain 2 handed weapons for brawlers.
11. More armor geared towards leather tanking
12. Change our Hate Line on a successful AVOIDANCE check.  Be the opposite of Guardian's Hate line based on when they get HIT.
13. Give Monk a better AA tree, 1 suggestive change is maybe an AoE Avoidance called Perfect Dodge or Evasion where the monk avoids 100% of AoE attack on a successful check, like 4% per rank to 5 ranks
14. Target buff to increase Mental resistance and lessen the effects of CHARM

Monks, please discuss these suggestions and post more of them. 

• Thanks to: Ripescence, Pantherxx, Fleaball, Gasheron for being the light in the darkness
• P.S. Please no negative posts. Take all flames and flame bait to PM's

[PantherXX]

A couple of thoughts:

• I would like to emphasize that the debuff effect more than just defense ... add in deflection and parry.  There are few skills that debuff deflection, and this would be a nice way to make brawlers a usefull weapon against brawler mobs.  I think the amounts could remain the same if the scope of the debuff was wider.
• More grp or even single target buffs would be nice.  If this comes with a trade-off on some self buffs and concentration, I would not be wholey opposed, so long as it was balanced.  The concentration slot mechanic is already there, make that a way to keep brawler abilities from getting out of hand.
• It would be nice to see a 2-hander in EOF as well.  I am not convinced this is the only way to go for great DPS builds, but as it is now, the selection of weapons in EOF is pretty bland (with the exception of the Avatar wep). 

 Despite a couple arguements with you DP, I appreciate that you are trying to keep things on the right note.  Let's give the dev's some food for thought!

[Ocello]

Very nice work, gentlemen. The first thing that strikes me about this topic is that most non-monks think we are too much of a jack-of-all trades type.  This makes us pretty good at soloing, but doesn't make us exactly raid-necessary.  Altruism, which is our only raid-type skill (and of course costs us in either DPS or tanking ability) is a wholly different story.  My point is, the devs aren't going to upgrade Monks in the way we like unless we lose something somewhere else in the process, or else we become too overpowered as farmers (who sadly are choking the life out of my server). Perhaps having more posts like this, as well as constructive ways to meet devs somewhere in the middle will help our cause...and remember, we can't be too greedy ;0)

[sah]

DynamicPerformance wrote:

1. Allow our stuns to affect epics like they did in the good old days.

If they did this, then they'd have to make everyone's stuns affect epics...

DynamicPerformance wrote:

1. An AA that grants the Monk the ability to wear chain armor.

Monk in chain...just seems so wrong...

DynamicPerformance wrote:

1. Create some more easier (KoS) to attain 2 handed weapons for brawlers.

At this point, I seriously doubt that they're going to go back and add items to KoS.  There is supposed to be a new 2 hander that drops in EH

[Gasheron]

We monks are supposed to be a tanking type. However, our tanking capabilities are based off of our avoidance, and most plate tanks can reach a level of avoidance that can match our avoidance in our offensive stances without too much effort. What I think we need is a change to the avoidance system that either lowers the amount of avoidance a plate tank can achieve, which to me is my biggest problem with our balance, or we need to get a better boost to our avoidance so that our max avoidance isn't only 70% or so.

When I think of a plate tank, I think of a person who weathers the blows, and barely even tries to dodge. The typical big, strong warrior kind of person. When I think of an avoidance tank, I think of a person who dodges almost every attack, someone who is agile and quick on their feet. Avoidance should be ruled by one's agility.

However, Agility is pretty much the most useless stat in the game right now. Large increases in the agility stat give maybe .5% avoidance, making it feel like its not worth it to have a high agility. When someone at 200 agility is close to someone with 400 agility in their avoidance, with all other things being equal, agility just isn't worth it.

Because of this, I think that agility needs to be reworked. If we got a larger increase to our avoidance because of agility, not only would it solve many of our tanking problems, and balance us much better, but would make the game seem more realistic in its physics and mechanics. Hell, I chose to betray FP just for the extra 2 AGI one got from choosing a monk back when the class progression system was still in place.

I don't really think we should get chain armor, but I'd like to see more leather armor with stats geared towards brawlers. Most of what I see is focused for druids, or is able to be worn by classes that would normally wear a higher mitigation armor type. Also, I've found that many of the EoF AA abilities seem pretty crazy. Some of them are good, but I don't see the point of the decreases to casting time for dmg CAs, the sprint speed increase, and 3 final abilities which are only good for a 2 second period of time. One dodge, or a combo attack that doesnt deal a lot of damage (I thought of it as a combo finisher, which should be a high damage attack + possibly an effect), and the third one which I honestly cannot remember atm because I pretty much started ignoring it after reading it once, just arent what I'd consider final abilities for an AA line...

These are just my opinions, and since my monk is essentially poor and unpowered (no masters, only half legendary equip) I might not have things entirely correct. Hopefully, the devs will help us out sometime in the future. We need it.

[Gungo]

double riposte % for brawlers (40% on parry) a group cast/recast/recovery haste add in parry and deflection to monk debuff Group buff that lower duration on DOT spells and raises duration on debuffs on target skill that forces all npc's in 5m AOE to stay locked on target (monk) for 5 secs. Upgrades to all classes bloodline spells. Such as dev fist to do 2% health dam on epics. brawler version of torpor self slow high ward/regen. Fix 2 handers to be comparable to duel wield DPS, and more then 1 handers.

[Traxor789]

DynamicPerformance wrote:

We monks feel downtrodden, forgotten amonst the many classes who have definitive roles in t7 raiding.  We feel that some changes are in order to improve us, and we understand that there is a real fear of unbalancing our already fragile system.  To this end we propose some things that we feel would improve the monk class for the better, while at the same time not eclipsing other classes already defined roles:

• Please note this list is not finalized in its goal of continued balance.  We want to work together with the developers to increase the perception of the monk as useless.

1. Increase our ability to debuff, perhaps with more "pressure point" type attacks Knee Shatter, Sternum Kick, or something jeez make then debuff for short durations after they land too.
2. Increase our defense debuff to 25. Debuffs, Monks dont really have jack as it is. I think Assassins can debuff more. And you know how much "utility" they are.
3. Allow our stuns to affect epics like they did in the good old days. Chanters are the only classes I know that can stun epics... Class specific ability????
4. Give us a group wide avoidence buff. More group buffs.
5. Increase our CA damage Needed. CA damage even with AA's top out at like 1200-1300 damage.
6. Include deflection and parry into our defense debuff Needed for higher avoidence to match the 15% diffrence between Plate tanks.
7. An AA that grants the Monk the ability to wear chain armor.Dont like so much
8. Give us a bigger boost from agility Change the way brawlers Avoid attacks from Epic's all together.
9. Increase our autoattack dps Brawler weapons Do not hit as hard as assassins but thats where they should be in auto attack damage. Assassins have Extreme CA damage so monks would never come close to replacing them as DPS.
10. Create some more easier (KoS) to attain 2 handed weapons for brawlers.
11. More armor geared towards leather tanking No more plate tanks or scouts wearing Avatar gear.
12. Change our Hate Line on a successful AVOIDANCE check.  Be the opposite of Guardian's Hate line based on when they get HIT.
13. Give Monk a better AA tree, 1 suggestive change is maybe an AoE Avoidance called Perfect Dodge or Evasion where the monk avoids 100% of AoE attack on a successful check, like 4% per rank to 5 ranks
14. Target buff to increase Mental resistance and lessen the effects of CHARM Some single target buff that is a class defining buff

Monks, please discuss these suggestions and post more of them. 

• Thanks to: Ripescence, Pantherxx, Fleaball, Gasheron for being the light in the darkness
• P.S. Please no negative posts. Take all flames and flame bait to PM's

I think Dynamic is starting to get what i was talking about.

[yusukekuwabara]

My biggest concern is more group buffs and single target buffs to make us useful in raids. I mean come on even Pallys who are joked as the most useless class in the game get better group buffs then us. They get Amends, give us something comparable or somethign that siphons our hate towards a group member and I don't mean that stupid AA that gives like 4% hate lol. Bruisers aren't in the same boat as us imo because they have the ability to do a little more dps plus they have that darn extra mit buff which should be ours. Give them Swift Calm(they are always saying they want haste) and give us the mit buff I dont care.

[Tauch]

DynamicPerformance wrote:

1. Increase our ability to debuff, perhaps with more "pressure point" type attacks
2. Increase our defense debuff to 25.
3. Allow our stuns to affect epics like they did in the good old days.
4. Give us a group wide avoidence buff.
5. Increase our CA damage
6. Include deflection and parry into our defense debuff
7. An AA that grants the Monk the ability to wear chain armor.
8. Give us a bigger boost from agility
9. Increase our autoattack dps
10. Create some more easier (KoS) to attain 2 handed weapons for brawlers.
11. More armor geared towards leather tanking
12. Change our Hate Line on a successful AVOIDANCE check.  Be the opposite of Guardian's Hate line based on when they get HIT.
13. Give Monk a better AA tree, 1 suggestive change is maybe an AoE Avoidance called Perfect Dodge or Evasion where the monk avoids 100% of AoE attack on a successful check, like 4% per rank to 5 ranks
14. Target buff to increase Mental resistance and lessen the effects of CHARM

1&2 I can agree with, and would combine together with number 6, though I'm not sure I'd be so specific. 3 is a definite no. 4 is of dubious utility imo. 5 is one I'll never disagree with. 7 would be off-the-charts powerful. 8&9 would be nice, but as it stands all fighters have parity on these two points and I foresee a heavy reluctance to change that on the devs' part. 10 is one I would omit, think to the future; only four months left of EoF(hopefully) and then a probable level-cap raise. 11 is a point I've always had contention with. For being the 'most flexible' class literally and figuratively I've always found our armor selection lacking in this respect. The good news it seems to be getting better lately, thanks to Archonix. 12 is one for which I can't help but give a heck no. That would cripple any secondary brawler tank from not only maintaining aggro but regaining it. 13 is very nearly next to useless imo. It'd be a nice bonus but not nearly anything for which we'd be included in raids. Hell, if that were in my AA options I'd probably not even choose it over sprint. I say this because with outward calm and master's evasion(as an offtank) coupled with the potentially highest HP of any class we really don't need to avoid AEs over anyone. 14 is another of very dubious utility. I think a grand-total of 8 different mobs/mob-types that the contemporary monk will face charm, with one being unresistable, one being a total joke, 4 being completely random and 2 of them actually charming the person targetted. They're nice ideas, but almost all of them are wishful thinking. I'm not trying to be an [I cannot control my vocabulary]; just trying to be realistic. I think the monk class needs some love and I'm glad people share that thought with me. But, overall, I think these suggestions lack focus.

[Tauch]

Gungo@Crushbone wrote:

1. double riposte % for brawlers (40% on parry) 2. a group cast/recast/recovery haste 4. Group buff that lower duration on DOT spells and raises duration on debuffs on target 5. skill that forces all npc's in 5m AOE to stay locked on target (monk) for 5 secs. 6. Upgrades to all classes bloodline spells. Such as dev fist to do 2% health dam on epics. 7. brawler version of torpor self slow high ward/regen.

1. At first I read that as double-riposting, and I thought that'd be fun. I reread it and double the ripostes would also be fun, but neither of these are really that useful considering the heavy cap on riposte damage. 2. It's nice, but not very monk-like imo. 4. I like the idea of shorter DoTs and longer debuffs for the group, but this, combined with #2, isn't really monk-like. 5. I would drool at a skill like that. Depending on recast that would be highly useful in a number of avatar raids(during which, as a monk, I'm usually sitting out). Would make bruisers would cry I think. 6. That would far, far overpower dev fist without some HEAVY restrictions. 7. I like the idea of a brawler self-torpor. A lot.

[DynamicPerforman]

Lets keep this thread going~!

• Brawler specific mobs e.x.  A mob that casts a -10k mit debuff on the entire raid.  At this point my 73% raid buffed avoidence should be > than the 62% that some guardians can boast.
• Change: Stone Stance Added a chance to proc on every successful avoid.
• Change: Infuriating Tranquility Increase hate by 500 to better reflect other tank's ability to hold epic aggro.

[PrimusPilus]

DynamicPerformance wrote:

We monks feel downtrodden, forgotten amonst the many classes who have definitive roles in t7 raiding.  We feel that some changes are in order to improve us, and we understand that there is a real fear of unbalancing our already fragile system.  To this end we propose some things that we feel would improve the monk class for the better, while at the same time not eclipsing other classes already defined roles:

Note the "roles in t7 raiding". the problem with many suggestions is they effect other things as well as t7 raiding, making the monk potentially overpowerfull outside of t7 raiding. If they were done, they would then need to be nerfed even if the Devs were dumb enough to create something like that that would then have to be nerfed away anyway.

Also, you don't want to create a dps/tank, as many suggestions here would do, that would create the infamous tankmage, with the damage output of squishy mages but with the toughness of a tank.

Soooooo, how about things that ONLY effect raiding/epics? Aaaaaand how about it being either/or, dps OR tankage? These can be new abilities, monk only gear that grants this ability, monk only adornments, or whatever. I lean toward the abilities, since they can better do the either/or thing and player choice of them, rather than having to rely on drops to decide you what kind of monk you are.

I see it as a "new" (other games have done this) system where you can take say power x but only if you have not taken power y or z. It can be a tree system if needed, where you can go up several branches to take things that help you on certain roles, like say tanking, offtanking, pulling, dps etc., but some or many powers say "but only if you do not have these other powers" so you get a choice, this OR that, NOT BOTH. That is to prevent you from being able to create that tankmage, because if you can, you will.

Also, many powers may only effect epics, work if you are targeting/fighting, being attacked by epics, etc. Since monks mainly only have problems on raids, most powers would mainly work best or at all on or around epics (some may have lesser abilities against others, such as high end heroics). Now powers that work only on epics are a new thing, but since the problem is t7 raiding, and the devs problem is that beafing up the monk so that they perform better on raids may cause them to be overpowering outside of raids, I see no other real solution but powers that either only effect epics, or effect epics a LOT more than non epics.

Examples of possible trees (taken from actual ninjutsu styles):

Earth mastery- Damage type branch, basically, gets you to scout type dps and also nerfes you to scout type squishyness, at least while being used (on epics). Kinda like a super offensive stance with buffs of the type that will allow signifigently increased dps (say damage proc that goes off with every hit), but comes with signifigent debuffs to take you down to scout territory, perhaps by debuffing your maximum health so that you have scout type health instead of the much higher tank health you are used to, plus whatever other nerfs are needed to make you basically about equel to a scout in squishyness. basically, you would parse like a scout but look cool like a monk (note, two handed weapons look coolest, at least of the bo animations type, so any way that would allow then to do damage about equel to dual weilders would give monks a choice of looks here. Also would come with signifigent additions to detaunt abilites, say proc more detaunt on the EoF mongoose stance and detaunt abilities. Earth mastery would basically not allow you to take the below masteries.

Fire mastery- You do somewhat more damage then you do now, perhaps edging into the lower scout territory, and lose some defensive abilities of some type, but you don't get to scout damage or scout squishyness. One way to do this is an increase to your maximum haste and your haste buffs that are fairly signifigent but not overpowering. This mastery could be used with air mastry below to some extent, although not at the same time.

Air mastery- Basically a pulling type skillset, you can become almost impossible to hurt for some time, longer than tsunami anyway by quite a bit, and hard to effect with many things like charms, AOEs, dots, kickbacks, roots, that sort of thing. Meanwhile, your ability to hold agro largely goes away, as does your ability to do a lot of damage (basically you would only be able to hold it's attention without really hurting it or building up a lot of hate). These skills would mainly be temorary type things to last you on a pull, even a fairly long pull, and pulling type abilities, perhaps things like being able to lower your agro raidius so that you can pull one group and not another nearby one.

Water mastery- Basically the offtanking skillset, includes things like temorary tanking buffs, short duration increases to your ability to get agro fast, and in many cases these abilities could be fast casting and combined into one or a few abilities so that you can pick up the mob and live through it fast. Could include such things as increases to the mitigation given with your current temorary mit buffs, along with agro generation by them, especially the stunning one, so that you can not only survive it but hold agro, at least for a while. This could include some temporary buffs similar to those seen by other tanks, such as guardians or berserkers. It should also give some short duration exteme agro builders, perhaps such things as a short duration agro proc of considerable power, or the abilities to caste a rescue, and then use another rescue within a very short time. Some or all air mastery could also be taken here, IF you have not taken Fire mastery, although once again you shouldnt really be able to use water and air at the same time (you may need to make it so that if you have used air you can't go water for a while).

Dragon mastery- The pure tank route, really cannot be taken with other masteries. One thing this can do is add a certain amount to your avoidence abilities depending on how powerfull the mob is you are fighting. It might add some if you are fighting a powerfull heroic named, it should always add some when fighting epics, more powerfull higher level epics (x4 being more powerfull then x2 etc) will give more, and epic names the most. This it could add a certain amount for say being epic x2, more for 3, more for 4, a certain amount for higher levels, a certain amount for named etc. Basically, the idea is to add back the avoidence to equel the extra to hit chances of epic mobs, such that your ability to tank them now resembles your abilityb to avoid not epic mobs. In this way your ability goes up against the mobs you need it to go up on, without making you any more powerfull agaisnt most heroics (you may gain some against thye more powerfull heroic named). Basically, just allow us to avoidenc tank epics, without changing us into unhittable superbeings against heroics. Other things could also aid this, mitigation buffs when fighting epics only, or an ability to decrease or lose entirely the mitigation debuff that epic mobs get when hitting us, increased ability to avoid AOEs so as to make us equel to plate tanks in that regard, etc. This is the place you could put a "if I avoid, I generate hate" type ability. The drawback to Dragon mastery, your ability to do damage may go down/be temorarily nerfed while using Dragon mastery, this can be mitiagted in tanking with increased ability to either/or ripost (a LOT more) or that generation of hate when I avoid thing, or perhaps buffs to other hate procs or taunts so they do more hate, or all of the above (persdonally I LIKE the idea of hate from avoidence, it just feels right).

Well thats my ideas on things that could actually be DONE by the devs without actually needing to be nerfed back to nothingness almost as soon as they are created.

[xPALAx]

PrimusPilus wrote:

We monks feel downtrodden, forgotten amonst the many classes who have definitive roles in t7 raiding.  We feel that some changes are in order to improve us, and we understand that there is a real fear of unbalancing our already fragile system.  To this end we propose some things that we feel would improve the monk class for the better, while at the same time not eclipsing other classes already defined roles:

I agree, we're strong. I'm a raiding Monk with good gear, there is no Problem to solo SoS. When I dps like a Scout and have Mitigation like a Zerker, I will solo PoA or HoF, lol. So the question is, how can we get better in Raids without beeing a Solo-Uberclass. Just add a gropu buff, which increases all other buffs from group members, maybe by 10%. So that means, 10% more heals from a Templar, 10% more Mititgation from a mysti, 10% more Agro transfer from a scout, even 10% more Mana from a Necro-Heart. So we won't be a Uberclass, but Groups and Raidpeople will definitly see a benefit having a monk in theire group.

[Shankonia]

Tank-Mage?

Oh, you mean a Swashbuckler and Brigand?

No wait, sorry.  They are more of a Tank-Mage-Debuffer - aka Uber.

------------------------------------

Making the Monk class much more relative to raiding and grouping without making us overpowered, I think would just require a few simple adjustments.

Increase our group haste buff to say 52 Haste @ M1 and add 60 or so strength to it.  This wouldn't make us overpowered because we can already easily buff 129 self haste and 600 strength fully mastered and easily obtainable KoS raid gear.  These additions can be done via AA as an enhancement.

You could also add a single target, raid wide haste or dps mod, say 40, at maybe one of the end Monk AA lines that we cannot cast on ourselves.  This would up our utility quite a bit, and then put us on even keel w/ the Bruiser AA lines which atm are better than what we've got.

Another idea I really like would be a full time AE immunity like Brigs used to have.  Of course, this ability could not be used while targeted, however does stay up while FD so if tanking we could potentially just pop right back up, rescue and continue on with our business.  Something like this in my mind won't PO the Warriors so much, because unless your guild is very skilled, the chaos that would ensue from it wouldn't warrant us the lable as overpowered tanks.

These changes probably would be much easier to implement than an entire overhaul of various "choice lines" as aformentioned, and make life much easier on the devs.  I do like that idea though alot. 

  

[selch]

• Need of Defensive Debuff.. We are not wearing plate and we are not scouts. Either attack speed debuff or c/p/s debuff in good quantity. Not like pathetic 15 defense debuff (so you debuffs mobs to make them 3 levels lower in defense if solo mob, so what?)
• Fixing of mitigation to reflect the "CURVE" on damage multiplier of mob, not  BASE MITIGATION NUMBER.
• Removal of all to-hit values of any kind of mob (If target is brawler) like it is used to in EOF beta initially.
• Re-education therapies for Developers that are force-migrated from EQ1, that Monk in EQ2 is a fighter (aka tank) class and mob's does not behave like in EQ1 to make FD any useful for organizations.
• World-wide guardian training why they are not any lesser than a tank built monk DPS wise as they think they were and their enemies to whine about are berzerkers, not monks. And given two handed ability for Berzerkers, removal of "Shield-use" from them.

[DynamicPerforman]

Change all our CONC slot buffs

• Single target stats: 1 conc
• Hate gain: 1 conc
• Hate decrease(AA): 1 conc
• Group haste: 2 conc

New buffs:

• Self immunity to aoe: 3 conc  (DPS monk, 1.5k dps is much better when constant, now beats other fighters in dps)
• Sacrfice self, group intercede. 3 conc (support monk, maybe dies after 10seconds? )

Also

• Make AA for group FD to work raidwide. Now THERE's some utility.

Just some ideas ^_^  I like the idea of using CONC slots to increase flexibility without overpowering (think bard)

[Shankonia]

Maybe...just maybe...rather than improving the Monk class itself, they add some new and POWERFUL gear to the game to help us out.

For example, I could justify my Monk being in a raid over my dirge when the other two dirges are present IF I had weapons twice as good as what i'm using now (Fists of Bashing from HoS and Bone Baton from crab).  I'm talking brawler only DWers = to Vrasakian Club.  Don't have to have good stats on it, but DWers with a 2.5 delay and damage range of maybe 75 - 550 or something along the lines.

Sure the weapons would be overpowered, but since only underpowered classes could use them, the classes themselves wouldn't be overpowered, only the weapons we can use would be.  Would balance us out quite a bit I think.

Also, the EoF fabled sets needs an extreme makeover.  All classes think their sets need some work, but when you look at them side by side, Monks got the shortest end of the stick.

Oh, and give us some fabled brawler only items for our ranged slot.  Another satchel goes to a Brig who already has two fabled bows I might have to quit again.

[Harvash]

Just wanted to drop a lil' nugget here, I really like the idea of Pressure Point arts...perhaps gained in AA points? To substitute the sorry excuse for art enhancments on the right side of our Monk tree.  Perhaps adding effects similar to the Poisons available to poison users. 

I think this would make an excellent idea personally, good thinking Dynamic!

[MadLordOfMilk]

-Increase the hate transfer in our AAs from 1%/pt to 2%/pt -Change Master's Evasion to not turn off upon use of a CA. Some classes have group-wide AE immunity abilities from AAs, why is our self-only one basically ineffective? OR maybe give our group FD an AE immunity effect to it for the first X seconds. -Let Devastation Fist:

1. Deal 0%-X% (0%-0.4%?) of max hp on epics, maybe capping at some # (30k?)
2. Double the hate gained for using it
3. Must be used from behind (can't use while tanking to get extra hate, albeit can use while offtanking I suppose)
4. Lengthen the self-stifle if used on epics (double?), or make it strong (1% of hp guaranteed uncapped for example) but have it have some huge side effect (kills the monk? 30sec stifle? both?).
5. Don't allow it to crit on epics
6. Hit or miss, make the stifle still affect the monk if used on an epic (if possible by game mechanics)

-Slightly up the damage, or slightly lower the recast, of Combination. Not by a lot, but a little nudge. -Add an "Increase hate gain by X%" to our defensive stance to make up for the total lack of dps ability while using it. -Add a second end ability to the awareness line that adds an encounter-wide hate gain effect to the Dragon Advance line. Half of the line is for gaining hate and half is for losing, why is the end one only losing? Have both as an option, perhaps have a "Must have 0 points in [opposite ability]" addition to the requirements for Evade and the new achievement. For the most part, all minor tweaks, but would help. Would almost totally fix hate gain issues if you spec'd out to tank, and would add some raid utility. No drastic changes, no massive revamps of our AAs, nothing crazy. Just some tweaks.

[Hydor]

Let me add some thought as well.

For one thing we can tank anything (or almost anything) if we are well equipped. We are just the worse at it and that's how it's meant to be. So I don't see how improving our tanking capabilities would do us any good since the other tanks will still have to be better. Noone will ever vote for a brawler to tank instead of any other tank. Besides even if we did become the No1 tank of the game we would still have to convince everyone that we can do it better. It's a hard thing to make someone that has allready made up his mind think otherwise.

Many people say that we can DPS. I think that's crap. Any DPS melee class will outDPS us just by auttoattack having the same buffs. So, if we will always be the worse tank possible we should be given some more DPS capability. This is something that needs a little boost I believe without having to give anything away. Why should we be the worse tank by far and have only little more than other tanks as far as DPS is concerned?

Group buffs. I ve read many nice ideas that would require a lot of work. How about a group Outward Calm? That's a simple and easy to do change I suppose that would give us a nice boost. Instead of having an AA based AoE block a group OC would work nicely and would be easy to add I guess. Using the same line of thinking a group Cure instead of a self cure would be easy to have I suppose and would increase our credit in a raid group. Note that none of those changes would affect our solo capabilities at all. I don't think that getting group Mitigation buff or group avoidance buff would help us. The rest of the group is not supposed to get hit anyway. However another nice idea would be an extra effect on Tranquil Vision. How about if group friend gets below x% health all damage is absorbed by the monk down to y% of Monk's health? That's a thing that would get us a place in the MT group for ever and ever.

Being able to tank much better or DPS much better giving away the other would let half the monks bitter and displeased. Getting new tricks would probably require a lot of work and risk giving us too many or even worse for us too little. Enhancing what we already have in a way that would benefit only our group seems to me easy to do, fair and just what it takes to make us a desirable class in a raid. And anyway I like being able to do all that stuff. I don't want to give anything away. And since we ll always be so and so to everything we may as well start being so and so at EVERYTHING. To put it in a few words. We can sort of tank. We can sort of DPS. We can sort of heal. What's missing? Let us be able to sort of ward and sort of cure. Let us be the emergency class for all situations.

Finally, aside all that I believe we SHOULD be able to do more damage. To be honest I can't see how any class could do more melee damage than a fighter that is built for it. That's another discussion though. My point here is that since we ll always be the worse tank by far we should be the more capable to DPS tank by far.

[Gungo]

personally i think 2 handers need a boost.

One handers doing more dps then 2 handers is wrong. 2handers should be equivilant to duel wields and dual wields should have the bonus of extra stats. Certain classes should do more dps w 2 handers then dual wields and vice versa.  1hander should do les then both and ranged should be equivilant to 2 handers.

second using brawler specific items as a means to improve the class is poor design. Yes to a degree items should improve a class Ala current rangers. But making a ton of class specific loot will only caus emore unnecassary rotting loot. and making powerful non class specific loot will only cause other classes to use brawler intended items ala leather avatar boots and leather robe w 100% crit.

Personally brawlers do not need huge steps in tanking or dps. Something simple like making devastation fist do 2% damage on epics would be nice, but it might be overpowered. Another Good idea that someone on the bruiser forums made the mistake of is turning devastion fist from 100% of "TARGET'S"  hitpoints into 100% of the BRAWLERS hitpoints. during raids when fully buffed at 13-14k hitpoints on a 5 min timer would be a very nice addition to brawlers and still fit in with its intended purpose of killing solo mobs and not overpowering vs epics or heroics.

here are my ideas to make the monk class a viable and useful raid addition: 1) make 2 handers into the dps option they were inteded to be other then weaker then 1 handers or dual wield 2) make dev fist do some damage to epics/heroics by changing it from targets hitpoints to casters max hitpoints 3) add a reduction to deflection and parry to the monks debuff as well as increase the amount for defense. 4) add an  aoe based "drag" ability to monks 5) increase the threat transfer on "TV" AA

Non of those abilites will overpower a monk but might be the diffference of taking a monk over a second class.

[Harvash]

Taucher wrote:

10 is one I would omit, think to the future; only four months left of EoF(hopefully) and then a probable level-cap raise.

Again, not to derail, but why would you perceive this as happening.  4 more months wouldnt even have EoF live for year yet.  Did I miss something somewhere on this subject?

[Tauch]

Harvash wrote:

Taucher wrote:

10 is one I would omit, think to the future; only four months left of EoF(hopefully) and then a probable level-cap raise.

Again, not to derail, but why would you perceive this as happening.  4 more months wouldnt even have EoF live for year yet.  Did I miss something somewhere on this subject?

DoF to KoS was 5 months. KoS to EoF was 9 months. I seem to recall them switching to an 8 month schedule because KoS, having come out only 5 months after DoF, was horribly rushed and the zones mostly cookie-cutter.

[Kota]

the combination aa.  why not have it passive ?  like, when you use the right atks it just goes off. 

[Deathblade13]

Well, I'm skeptical of any of the good stuff you guys are talking about ever happening, but I might as well chime in and say that I sure wish it would.