Torn Ligament/Rain Caller

[JAFO74]

Hi all. I think this is my first post, but I have been playing this game since launch and EQ before that, so I have an idea how the game mechanics work. Anyway I was wondering if anyone has done any parsing on the torn ligament bow and found it either better, equal or a little worse than rain caller on DPS. i Know the DR is much higher, but the way crit mechanics work with max damage ,damage range and delay for procs/missed auto attacks being so important, I was thinking that these two factors my mitigate the higher DR of the torn ligament.

 I am a raiding ranger, but have not gotten my hands on any of the good bows from DT or hos, although I have more visits to those zones under my belt than I can count. It seems that every other week that dang ammo summoning satchel drops from tarinax.  Anyway, I digress, was just curious if anyone has done any data collection on this. My first use of the torn ligament was clockwork last night, and that was such an ugly parse in there, it has no statistically significant value for comparison...

I am speced AGI/INT(max crits on both)  and Double arrow/Extension 100aa's

 Iago

Permafrost

[TerriBlades]

JAFO74 wrote:

Hi all. I think this is my first post, but I have been playing this game since launch and EQ before that, so I have an idea how the game mechanics work. Anyway I was wondering if anyone has done any parsing on the torn ligament bow and found it either better, equal or a little worse than rain caller on DPS. i Know the DR is much higher, but the way crit mechanics work with max damage ,damage range and delay for procs/missed auto attacks being so important, I was thinking that these two factors my mitigate the higher DR of the torn ligament.

 I am a raiding ranger, but have not gotten my hands on any of the good bows from DT or hos, although I have more visits to those zones under my belt than I can count. It seems that every other week that dang ammo summoning satchel drops from tarinax.  Anyway, I digress, was just curious if anyone has done any data collection on this. My first use of the torn ligament was clockwork last night, and that was such an ugly parse in there, it has no statistically significant value for comparison...

I am speced AGI/INT(max crits on both)  and Double arrow/Extension 100aa's

 Iago

Permafrost

You should see a substantal increase in your DPS going from Raincaller to the Torn Ligament. Thats what makes Bazkul, Sarnak, LoC, Star Darkened and Rigid Scale so desireable. All longbows with a DR over 90 (mostly over 100). Since I dont use Raincaller (Have it, just never used it) and I dont have the TLL I cant tell you its most definately which is going to be better, but my moneys on TLL.

[Effidian]

The top damage on the Torn Ligament is actually lower than Raincaller's and it has a 6.0 second delay v.s. Raincaller's 7.0.  Add the Raincaller's proc and you end up with about the same dps.  I notice almost no difference in DPS between the 2.  I end up using Raincaller for the stun most of the time, and switch to Torn Ligament if I need to watch agro.  I was hoping to see an increase, but it just didn't happen.  If anyone has done some more extensive tests, I'd love to know the results.

 The reason those other bows are so desired, isn't so much the DR (which is practically meaningless), but the top damage.

Torn Ligament 164 - 383 Rain Caller 131-394 Bazkul 159 - 478 Sarnak 127 - 722 Star Darkened 146 - 829 Rigid Scale 204 - 817

[Kala Asuras]

Yes top damage is nice and you will see larger numbers coming off the mob but it is not what is really important and not why bows such as the Star Darkened Longbow are so desirable.  You are right with bows that have the same Damage Rating, the one with the higher top damage would be better but it is actually the damage spread that you are evaluating.  There are 3 things i can think of that i use to judge a bow.  1) damage spread.  This is one very important factor that is not calculated into the Damage Rating and a big reason that you can't just use DR to decide on a bows quality.  With classes that have a high crit% such as rangers that have the ranged crit from the KoS AA tree maxed a large damage spread will make a huge difference.  This is because of the way crits are calculated.  Each crit does 130% of the damage rolled or max damage +1, whichever is greater.  This is one of the main reasons that Grinning Dirk of Horror is such a great dual wield weapon for assassins. 2) Delay.  Longer delays are typically better.  No self-respecting ranger would use a short bow because their DPS goes through the tubes.  This is because you are far more likely to delay an auto attack with one of our CAs if the bow is firing off every 3.5s ranter than every 9.0s and thus missing out on all that auto attack goodness.  However what about the example where one bow does 120-820 damage every 9.0s and another does 110-799 damage every 7.5s?  You can see that the first has the larger damage spread and longer delay both of which I said were good things but this is where Damage Rating comes into play.  The second bow will have a much higher Damage rating because it doesn't do a whole less damage per shot but it does fire a lot quicker.  3) Damage Rating. This is a good place to start when looking at bows,  just keep in mind that the two factors above are VERY important and can overcome a lower damage rating and make for a better bow.

[wajamacallit]

Kala,

 Are you saying that a high spread say 100-600 is better than a low spread for example 300-600? 

[Kala Asuras]

No, I am saying that damage spread is a very important factor that is not taken into account for the Damage Rating.  An example would be the following bows: Dmg                   Delay                       DR 100-600              7.5                         93.4  200-500              7.5                         93.4 The DR only takes into account the damage and delay but the damage spread from the first bow would make it much better.  I was just trying to point out that picking a bow is a bit more complex than Effidian's ignoring DR and just looking at top damage. For instance from my first post. Dmg                   Delay                       DR 120-820                9.0                       104.4 110-799                7.5                       121.2 Here the first bow has a bigger top damage but if you ignored DR you would be missing out on a much better bow.  You can't just look at one factor to pick. You have to weigh strengths and weaknesses from long delays so you don't delay as many auto attacks, a high DR, and damage spread.

[wajamacallit]

I believe as do you that the first bow is better but for a different reason.   The peak damage is higher.   Any crit on the first weapon will result is a min of 601 damage, in contrast on the second bow the max crit is 650 and only a small proportion of all the crits will be over 600.    

The ratio of max to min damage is not something I would consider.   The problem here is that for a given DR and Speed to compare two hypothetical bow's one would have to have a larger high hit and smaller low hit becouse of the way DR is calculated.  Therefor as consequence have a damage spread range.

This interested in the damage ratio appears to come from the Crit post in the combat section.   Which can be used to compare the effect of adding an +crit item any other effect say a proc.   +Crit has more of an impact with a large spread.

[Kala Asuras]

We are looking at things slightly differently but actualy saying the same thing.  When looking at a bow with the same DR the larger damage spread would also have a higher max damage, they go together.  What I was trying to point out in my first post was that you cant just look at max damage and ignore damage rating because then you are missing out on everything that the bow delay does as well as what the min damage does as in your post following mine. wajamacallit wrote: "This interested in the damage ratio appears to come from the Crit post in the combat section.   Which can be used to compare the effect of adding an +crit item any other effect say a proc.   +Crit has more of an impact with a large spread." Yep, as I put in my first post: "With classes that have a high crit% such as rangers that have the ranged crit from the KoS AA tree maxed a large damage spread will make a huge difference.  This is because of the way crits are calculated.  Each crit does 130% of the damage rolled or max damage +1, whichever is greater."

[wajamacallit]

I still believe a large damage spread is bad thing.   With a large spread more of the crit hits will be adjusted to Max+1, the min crit damge than with a smaller tighter spread.

[Kala Asuras]

/sigh. What a damage spread does is make the most out of any given DR.  Yes a tighter grouping at the near the max of a large spread bow would be better but then it would have a much higher damage rating.  Which would you rather have a bow with a 99DR and a 1:6 damage spead or a bow with 99DR and a 1:3 damage spread?

[wajamacallit]

So why go to the bother of calculating the max/min ratio when for a given DR the higher top end damage is easier to see?

[EQ2Magroo]

I would say these bows perform two different functions. I would use Raincaller when soloing, and Torn Ligament on raids. Having said that, I use Raincaller fine on raids too and have yet to see any of the supposed "mem wipe" problems with it. If I had to pick just one of the above to use though in all circumstances, it would have to be Raincaller. When chosing a bow I use the following criteria to evaluate it: 1. Max damage. The bow with the highest max damage is always the one to take all things being equal. You will really see a big DPS improvement from your AA crit hits as they will always be 130% of the bow's max damage. 2. Stats. Any useful stats like +STR or +INT get factored in next. STR is essential to high CA damage, and INT for max poison damage. Any nice procs like stun or extra damage also very much appreciated. That's it ! If I had to pick between two bows with the same max damage, same stats, same reload time then I guess I'd pick the one with the smallest damage range, as for those non-crit AA hits it has a better guaranteed minimum damage. In practise though this never happens, one of the bows always has a higher max damage. As for reload time, it's really a factor of max damage. Providing it is >6s or so I would say all bows are just as good as each other. Personally I don't see the need to complicate things down to damage rating, damage range, reload times etc. They all just seem to be factors of max damage, and if that's as high as you can get, then the bow will do just fine. On a side note, I see a lot of Rangers obsessing about damage ratings, sweet spots, crit hit ratios etc. but they are still using AD1 spells, vendor bought poisons and have a STR stat that my wizard would be ashamed to have. My advice is get the basics right first before getting carried away with that final "10%".

[Prandtl]

wajamacallit wrote:

So why go to the bother of calculating the max/min ratio when for a given DR the higher top end damage is easier to see?

Why go through the bother? Because DR doesn't tell you everything about the weapon.  If it did then rangers would use wurm destroyer bow ahead of rain caller and we all know that is not the case.  Well, it might be, but only if you want to hose your dps.

Below level 65 or so I wouldn't worry about damage ratio or damage rating very much.  Go for the best stats and the best proc. 

Above 65 and in end game it can make the difference between below average DPS and OMG DPS.  You can proclaim independence from the unholy parse all you want to, but when push comes to shove a group would rather have a ranger that can clear our mobs quickly and safely.  If that doesn't matter to you then you are wasting your time looking here for pointers.  Go forth and have fun.

If it does matter to you, then look for the following

1)  A strong bow.  Damage rating is a good place to start, but not the be-all end-all.  Go to #2

2)  Minimum / Maximum damage ratio.  I have read several comment above where posters stated that they wanted the minimum and maximum to be closer together, so if they have a low damage roll they would still get a decent hit from the shot.  That is completely wrong.   Rangers crit auto-attack bow shot.  We crit ALOT.  And the higher the spread between min and max damage, the higher the bow will crit for above max. 

See this post here: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...14&#2109091  The bottom line is that the higher the ratio of max damage to min damage, then the harder and higher your bow will crit for.

Don't believe it?  Then go ahead and cripple your DPS.  More groups for me.  Oh, and let the dirge have the Sarnak Warbow if it drops, because he might actually know what to do with it.

3)  Procs  Bows proc alot, and bow procs tend to hit hard.  A nice proc is a definite bonus.

4)  Stats.  By the time you reach 70 you will have all kinds of gear that buff every stat out there.  If you are dependant on your primary weapon to make or break your stats....   then go get a few adornments and find a better bow.

my 2 coppers worth

[Desrani]

What about against the Sinew Wrapped Longbow??  Would you use this instead of the Raincaller ?? or Torn Ligament Bow??

As of last night I now have all three bows. Already had the Sinew and Raincaller before that and was using Sinew on Raids due to higher damage range.

Any suggestions which is best to use for Raids?  I am leaning towards using Sinew Wrapped still but not sure abotu Torn Ligament Bow. 

 In Groups and Solo the Raincaller is the item for me.

[Kitsune286]

I currently have three bows: Rain Caller Torn Liggy (+12 Poison Gear) Bow of Searing Missles (+12 Slashing Sinew) I use RC for soloing and group purposes, unless I am having a bad tank day. I use Torn Liggy on raids and bad tank days. I keep Bow of Searing missles around 'cause I love the 'whoosh' proc sound. (Good for long range pulls, too). Still waiting on ANY bow to drop.. do Tarinax and Venekor regularly.. seen'm drop thier respective bows once. =(

[Ranja]

Desrani wrote:

What about against the Sinew Wrapped Longbow??  Would you use this instead of the Raincaller ?? or Torn Ligament Bow??

As of last night I now have all three bows. Already had the Sinew and Raincaller before that and was using Sinew on Raids due to higher damage range.

Any suggestions which is best to use for Raids?  I am leaning towards using Sinew Wrapped still but not sure abotu Torn Ligament Bow. 

 In Groups and Solo the Raincaller is the item for me.

Sinew is much better than both of those bows with a top end damage above 400.