Ammo

[TerriBlades]

Im I the only one that saw this tonight?

I can see that theres a huge hit bonus to the T8 summoned ammo, but what bothers me is the +148 slashing v/s the +128 Piercing.

T7 handcrafted v/s Legendary T8... and the T7 has higher damage?

[Nulad]

Yes but then lets look at the other modifiers at the same time, it's not like they're at all even is it?

[TerriBlades]

By that logic... a T7 handcrafted weapon could have higher damage then a t8 legendary weapon as long as the stats are better? blah

They shouldnt even be in the same ballpark.. thats just wrong.

 edit: spelling

[Nulad]

Well, yes you are correct, but my thinking is that it will bode well for when T8 hits properly and ammo is tuned for it... I hope...

[TwistedFaith]

Personally I think its a nice balance between them both, at least now rangers have a option in regards to ammo and dont have to prey to the loot gods for one of those bows to drop. It's been said before, but our dps should not be balanced based on rangers with a sarnak bow and a bow that summons ammo.

[leafnin]

TerriBlades wrote:

By that logic... a T7 handcrafted weapon could have higher damage then a t8 legendary weapon as long as the stats are better? blah

They shouldnt even be in the same ballpark.. thats just wrong.

 edit: spelling

I noticed you conviently left out costs difference between the two.

Last night on Kithicor it was 9 silver/arrow, 9gold per stack, 90 gold per 10 stacks.

Everfrost: 18silver/arrow

It maybe more or less then these on other servers.  Basically you pay nothing to get a stack  of 128 damage. + 5 Range. +25% chance to hit arrows.  People are paying through the nose for 20 more damage an arrow for less range and 30%(-5% chance to hit) less chance to hit then with your ammo(T8 gets a 25% bonus).  What's the point in complaining about this?  T8 summoned will still due more damage over the long term due to the huge difference in 'To-Hit' rate.  Seriously I don't see what the problem is other then you don't understand how the numbers add up.

[Domyr Farseeker]

I was wondering what the stats on the summoned T8 ammo would be. That makes for an interesting comparison to the other arrows.

makeshift adamantine arrow +67 piercing

adamantine fieldpoint arrow +74 crushing, +5 range, 50% hit bonus

adamantine bodkin arrow +111 piercing 10% hit bonus

adamantine broadhead arrow +148 slashing, -5 range, -5% hit bonus

Legendary Summoned +128 piercing, +3 range, +25% hit bonus

One nice thing about the crafted arrows is that they show up in the parse differently than other damage. The broadhead arrows show up as slash/pierce and the fieldpoint show up as crush/pierce. Unfortunately, it looks like the bodkins get mixed in with regular makeshift arrows and melee as 'pierce' damage.

I bought a stack of each crafted arrow before going into Deathtoll last night. One stack is a really small sampling, but the results are kind of interesting. I wish I could pick out the bodkins damage from the makeshift damage. Overall, I used 3 stacks of makeshift and one of each crafted type.

The broadhead arrows parsed about 3% higher on average hit damage than the makeshift/bodkin mix and the fieldpoints were about 9% lower than makeshift/bodkin. My autoattack dps overall was about the same with broadheads (actually dropped a bit) and about 9% lower with the fieldpoints. I hit 100% of my shots when using broadheads, so the -5% to hit bonus didn't seem to effect me much at all last night. It would be interesting to see how the lower hit % works out over a larger sampling.

Seems like they tried to make the legendary arrows a blend of all the good traits of the other arrows without being the 'best' at any of them.  Just based on my small sampling from last night, I don't think it would be out-of-line to give them the best stat from each arrow type. The extra 2 points of ranged and another 25% hit bonus ain't going to break the game. They should outdamage the T7 crafted ammo. And NO, I don't have one of the T8 summoning bows - I just think Legendary items from a higher tier should be niticeably better.  

Overall, I like the arrow changes. I used A LOT LESS ARROWS! which was nice. As the prices on the crafted arrows stabilize I think they'll probably be an affordable option for those that want to bring their A-game to the party. They aren't so overpowering that they become one of those "must-have" consumables like mastercrafted poisons. Wouldn't mind a boost to the Legendary ammo, but the rest of the mix is kinda nice. I think it adds an element of strategy to our ammo selection.

[Star]

I really think 20 extra damage doesn't make up for the +30% to hit bonus. The usefulness of +8m range could be debated but on level 74 and 75 mobs, I'd rather have the to hit bonus.

Edit: This is what I ment to say. Bleh.

[chrystolr]

Star wrote:

I really don't think 20 extra damage doesn't make up for the +30% to hit bonus. The usefulness of +8m range could be debated but on level 74 and 75 mobs, I'd rather have the to hit bonus.

Are you only looking at this from a raiding view or a general view? For me the +30% is not only making up for the extra 20 damage but it makes it a no brainer for which one I should chose. With my own debuffs and accuracy that 30% basically is gona guarantee I hit each time. I would take it over the other arrow any time.

[Boramyr]

I Posted some analasys here 

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=350275

All in all I like the changes and think they are positive, but I think they need to put the noncrafted arrows in proper line.  Mainly I don't think we should be summonint Level 40 equivalent arrows with a T7 spell. 

[Starwindz]

I might be wrong but i think you guys are understating the stats. i dont think "128 to piercing" is equivalent to 128 piercing dmg. like say the bow adornment. I believe its more relative to gears that give +7 or so to piercing or slashing.

[TerriBlades]

Star wrote:

I really don't think 20 extra damage doesn't make up for the +30% to hit bonus. The usefulness of +8m range could be debated but on level 74 and 75 mobs, I'd rather have the to hit bonus.

The highlighted part is really a non-issue here unless you are strickly a soloer or need slightly more distance for some crazy pull. Most raiding rangers are not going to be at max distance in the first place. Not even close to it.

Leafnin, I dont see how you can use cost of T8 Summoned ammo as an agruement. Because you get the ammo free, from a rare raid drop, that balances? I dont think so.

If the handcrafted ammo did the same, or slightly less damage, then I wouldnt even be here making this an issue. Because as stated before, there is the -5 to hit v/s the +25. However, its not really the case. The bottom line is. T8 Legendary ammo should beat any T7 Handcrafted ammo all the way around. Not only is there a 10 level difference, theres also a quality difference. And frankly I dont believe that a +25 to hit is going to make that big a difference. I didnt miss many shots before these changes went in.

[Faelen]

I think the ammo seems pretty balanced.  Keep in mind that this is damage being added to the damage done by the weapon.  However, the hit bonus affects the entire damage amount. The crafted are only 20 pts more than the Viscid globs, hardly enough to make a difference.  If you fire 20 shots using the crafted and miss one of them, you'll lose 2-3k damage for missing the entire shot and you'll only gain 380 damage (19 * 20) from the extra 20 pts per shot. I'd still rather use the T8 ammo because overall your damage should be a lot higher.  Also keep in mind that the damage done by your bow is affected by the level of your ammo.  So just by the T8 ammo being level 70, your bow shots will do more base damage. In order to properly evaluate different ammo you have to weigh the "hit bonus" much heavier than damage and also include the level difference.  Even if you only miss occasionally, it takes a lot of 20 point hits to equal one single missed 3k attack.

[Stormhawk]

This is some data from another post on the subject.  You can find it in the Dev Tracker.

Below is some data that assumes your bow hits for an average of 400.  A ranger's base accuracy without any modifiers is around 75-85% on non-brawler mobs.  If you don't believe me, just go back to your makeshift summoned again and you will see the difference.  The reason why you didn't miss much is because the T8 legendary already had the hit bonus before the patch.  The devs stated that they didn't really change the stats of crafted ammo, just made it more clear what its benefits were.  So basically, it has always been like this it was just too expensive to take advantage of.  You can clearly see from the data below ( and I have mostly confirmed this from some poking around I did with the new arrows ) that the broadhead arrows are horrible by comparison to other crafted and T8 but still better then makeshift.

 Here is the data from the post

If your chance to hit is over 100%, you will still only hit one time.  Therefore:  Bazkul (128 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 528, ABK (111 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 511,  AFP (74 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 474, ABH (148 + 400) * 95% hit rate = 520.6.  The underlying assumption you have made though is that the base chance to hit is 100%.  Below would be the expected average damage per arrow based on unmodified odds to hit:

• Odds to Hit  Bazkul  Broad Bodkin  Field  Ranger
• 100%              548      521     511    474      467
•  90%               548      466     511    474      420
•  80%               548      411     460    474      374 ( Pesco's Note: This is where ranger base accuracy is so this would be the best comparison point&nbsp
•  70%               521      356     409    474      327
•  60%               466      301     358    474      280 (at this point the Field Points will average more damage).
•  50%               411      247     307    474      234
•  40%               356      192     256    427      187

[Zarath]

I must have missed something, i've been a lvl 70 ranger for awhile now and was not aware of T8 ammo being live?  Is this information from the test server or some weapon that I'm missing?  Where can you get this stuff?

 And I like the ammo changes as well, gives more meaning to the different options between crafted/bought/type of head.

[Marcuzs]

Pesco@Mistmoore wrote:

This is some data from another post on the subject.  You can find it in the Dev Tracker.

Below is some data that assumes your bow hits for an average of 400.  A ranger's base accuracy without any modifiers is around 75-85% on non-brawler mobs.  If you don't believe me, just go back to your makeshift summoned again and you will see the difference.  The reason why you didn't miss much is because the T8 legendary already had the hit bonus before the patch.  The devs stated that they didn't really change the stats of crafted ammo, just made it more clear what its benefits were.  So basically, it has always been like this it was just too expensive to take advantage of.  You can clearly see from the data below ( and I have mostly confirmed this from some poking around I did with the new arrows ) that the broadhead arrows are horrible by comparison to other crafted and T8 but still better then makeshift.

 Here is the data from the post

If your chance to hit is over 100%, you will still only hit one time.  Therefore:  Bazkul (128 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 528, ABK (111 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 511,  AFP (74 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 474, ABH (148 + 400) * 95% hit rate = 520.6.  The underlying assumption you have made though is that the base chance to hit is 100%.  Below would be the expected average damage per arrow based on unmodified odds to hit:

• Odds to Hit  Bazkul  Broad Bodkin  Field  Ranger
• 100%              548      521     511    474      467
•  90%               548      466     511    474      420
•  80%               548      411     460    474      374 ( Pesco's Note: This is where ranger base accuracy is so this would be the best comparison point 
•  70%               521      356     409    474      327
•  60%               466      301     358    474      280 (at this point the Field Points will average more damage).
•  50%               411      247     307    474      234
•  40%               356      192     256    427      187

Well as far as I can tell the table is listed wrong. Its listing the Bazkul at 548 yet the paragraph before it shows Bazkul is at 528. Its the Broadhead that is at 548, not Bazkul. Also if hes using the formula (damage of arrow + base damage)*hit %, then there is no way that any of those numbers should remain the same as you reduce the % to hit. For example,

Bazkul

128 + 400 = 528 (as shown above)

 100%             528

 90%               475 

 80%               422

 70%               370

So with your hit % dropping how does the average damage per bow remain the same from 100% to 80%? Just isn't making sense to me, unless hes taking into account the + hit % from the arrows which I took from his last paragraph that he shouldn't have been.

[arieste]

Zarath wrote:

I must have missed something, i've been a lvl 70 ranger for awhile now and was not aware of T8 ammo being live?  Is this information from the test server or some weapon that I'm missing?  Where can you get this stuff?

 And I like the ammo changes as well, gives more meaning to the different options between crafted/bought/type of head.

T8 ammo is summoned by certain level 70 fabled bows.

[Boramyr]

arieste wrote:

Zarath wrote:

I must have missed something, i've been a lvl 70 ranger for awhile now and was not aware of T8 ammo being live?  Is this information from the test server or some weapon that I'm missing?  Where can you get this stuff?

 And I like the ammo changes as well, gives more meaning to the different options between crafted/bought/type of head.

T8 ammo is summoned by certain level 70 fabled bows.

Also after I broke down the formula (and a fairly easy one at that) to see how arrow progression was laid out I statted Hypothetical T8 crafted ammo to see if T8 Legendary Ammo was in Line.  I'm still not sure it is but thats still a secondary concern until T8 goes live, which would be quite a while from now anyway,  but the only T8 ammo in the game right now is from Bazkul/Ichorstrand or dropped from Emerald Halls trash. 

[leafnin]

TerriBlades wrote:

Star wrote:

I really don't think 20 extra damage doesn't make up for the +30% to hit bonus. The usefulness of +8m range could be debated but on level 74 and 75 mobs, I'd rather have the to hit bonus.

The highlighted part is really a non-issue here unless you are strickly a soloer or need slightly more distance for some crazy pull. Most raiding rangers are not going to be at max distance in the first place. Not even close to it.

Leafnin, I dont see how you can use cost of T8 Summoned ammo as an agruement. Because you get the ammo free, from a rare raid drop, that balances? I dont think so.

If the handcrafted ammo did the same, or slightly less damage, then I wouldnt even be here making this an issue. Because as stated before, there is the -5 to hit v/s the +25. However, its not really the case. The bottom line is. T8 Legendary ammo should beat any T7 Handcrafted ammo all the way around. Not only is there a 10 level difference, theres also a quality difference. And frankly I dont believe that a +25 to hit is going to make that big a difference. I didnt miss many shots before these changes went in.

Are you parsing the new crafted arrows versus Yellow mobs or with Orange mobs?  Also Ichorstrand is the easier of the two arrow summoning bows to get.  Cost DOES matter it's a reccuring fact of life if you have to use crafted.  Do you have to go back and kill Drake each time you need to reuse Ichorstrand..no.  You get it pay the DKP and your done.  The ammo is better period and regardless even if you have crafted if you don't have the bow to support it it doesn't make much of a difference.  I don't believe anyone with a sumoning bow is going to drop it for crafted.  Again why are you so worried? 

 If it bothers you so much buy several stacks of the offending arrow and parse versus trash and named in KoS and EoF Yellow and Orange and post the results.  See if your ammo really falls in damage compared to crafted and whether that 'to-hit' matters.  Also parse with and without group +pierce/+crush buffs see if you notice a diffence. 

[Star]

Marcuzs wrote:

Pesco@Mistmoore wrote:

This is some data from another post on the subject.  You can find it in the Dev Tracker.

Below is some data that assumes your bow hits for an average of 400.  A ranger's base accuracy without any modifiers is around 75-85% on non-brawler mobs.  If you don't believe me, just go back to your makeshift summoned again and you will see the difference.  The reason why you didn't miss much is because the T8 legendary already had the hit bonus before the patch.  The devs stated that they didn't really change the stats of crafted ammo, just made it more clear what its benefits were.  So basically, it has always been like this it was just too expensive to take advantage of.  You can clearly see from the data below ( and I have mostly confirmed this from some poking around I did with the new arrows ) that the broadhead arrows are horrible by comparison to other crafted and T8 but still better then makeshift.

 Here is the data from the post

If your chance to hit is over 100%, you will still only hit one time.  Therefore:  Bazkul (128 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 528, ABK (111 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 511,  AFP (74 + 400) * 100% hit rate = 474, ABH (148 + 400) * 95% hit rate = 520.6.  The underlying assumption you have made though is that the base chance to hit is 100%.  Below would be the expected average damage per arrow based on unmodified odds to hit:

• Odds to Hit  Bazkul  Broad Bodkin  Field  Ranger
• 100%              548      521     511    474      467
•  90%               548      466     511    474      420
•  80%               548      411     460    474      374 ( Pesco's Note: This is where ranger base accuracy is so this would be the best comparison point 
•  70%               521      356     409    474      327
•  60%               466      301     358    474      280 (at this point the Field Points will average more damage).
•  50%               411      247     307    474      234
•  40%               356      192     256    427      187

Well as far as I can tell the table is listed wrong. Its listing the Bazkul at 548 yet the paragraph before it shows Bazkul is at 528. Its the Broadhead that is at 548, not Bazkul. Also if hes using the formula (damage of arrow + base damage)*hit %, then there is no way that any of those numbers should remain the same as you reduce the % to hit. For example,

Bazkul

128 + 400 = 528 (as shown above)

 100%             528

 90%               475 

 80%               422

 70%               370

So with your hit % dropping how does the average damage per bow remain the same from 100% to 80%? Just isn't making sense to me, unless hes taking into account the + hit % from the arrows which I took from his last paragraph that he shouldn't have been.

Actually you're both part wrong, part right.  You're right, Marcuzs, it should be 528, but the progresion (due to the 25% chance to hit) would be:

•  100%             528
•  90%               528 
•  80%               528
•  70%               501.6

So the bonus, as everyone already prolly knows, will only really start to shine against mobs that you have a lower chance to hit before the arrows are added (duh). As Faellen pointed out though, bow damage is tied to ammo level to, so shooting lvl 60 arrows from a lvl 70 bow will be doing less damage than shooting lvl 70 arrows from a lvl 70 bow (assuming all other things are equal).

Interesting evaluation though, seems to me that anyone without T8 ammo should be using Field Points on just about everything. Most hit rates I've seen on AA in raids don't get to or even above 90% so for the majority of raiding rangers Feild Points should be the way to go (assuming there's no other behind the scenes stuff in the calculations).

[Marcuzs]

Star wrote:

Actually you're both part wrong, part right.  You're right, Marcuzs, it should be 528, but the progresion (due to the 25% chance to hit) would be:

•  100%             528
•  90%               528 
•  80%               528
•  70%               501.6

So the bonus, as everyone already prolly knows, will only really start to shine against mobs that you have a lower chance to hit before the arrows are added (duh). As Faellen pointed out though, bow damage is tied to ammo level to, so shooting lvl 60 arrows from a lvl 70 bow will be doing less damage than shooting lvl 70 arrows from a lvl 70 bow (assuming all other things are equal).

Interesting evaluation though, seems to me that anyone without T8 ammo should be using Field Points on just about everything. Most hit rates I've seen on AA in raids don't get to or even above 90% so for the majority of raiding rangers Feild Points should be the way to go (assuming there's no other behind the scenes stuff in the calculations).

Actually I'm not wrong, you apparently didn't read my last sentance. I agree with the list you posted however the original post specifically said that the values listed were "expected average damage per arrow based on unmodified odds to hit"

[Star]

Marcuzs wrote:

Star wrote:

Actually you're both part wrong, part right.  You're right, Marcuzs, it should be 528, but the progresion (due to the 25% chance to hit) would be:

•  100%             528
•  90%               528 
•  80%               528
•  70%               501.6

So the bonus, as everyone already prolly knows, will only really start to shine against mobs that you have a lower chance to hit before the arrows are added (duh). As Faellen pointed out though, bow damage is tied to ammo level to, so shooting lvl 60 arrows from a lvl 70 bow will be doing less damage than shooting lvl 70 arrows from a lvl 70 bow (assuming all other things are equal).

Interesting evaluation though, seems to me that anyone without T8 ammo should be using Field Points on just about everything. Most hit rates I've seen on AA in raids don't get to or even above 90% so for the majority of raiding rangers Feild Points should be the way to go (assuming there's no other behind the scenes stuff in the calculations).

Actually I'm not wrong, you apparently didn't read my last sentance. I agree with the list you posted however the original post specifically said that the values listed were "expected average damage per arrow based on unmodified odds to hit"

I think our disagreement comes down to poor phrasing then. I read that and assumed (by reading the table and the fact that the DMG posted by Pesco@Mistmoore did not decrease for 100, 90, and 80) that by *unmodified* they ment *unmodified by things other than arrows*. Oh well, I appologize then Marcuzs.

[Nagous]

  Ichorstrand and Bazgul seem to be dropping much more often lately.  In our last 4 trips to DT we've gotten 2 bazgul and 1 Ichorstrand.  The other guilds doing DT on our server have also gotten at least one of each in the past few weeks.  Also, in unrest there's a throwing weapon drop that summons treasured throwing items, and i'm thinking that there is probably a bow of some sort in there that may do the same.  The summoned ammo from the legendary item is treasured t8 ammo, so it could end up being an alternative to those rangers who don't raid as often if there is a bow in there.

[EQ2Magroo]

So the key question is then: How do I calculate my chance to hit ? If I'm on raids with yellow/orange/red ^^^/epic mobs my chance to hit would be lower I guess, so field point would seem the best option. But if I'm grouping/soling greens/blues etc. then broadhead would seem better. Of course, we also have to factor in any resistance the mob might have to a certain type of damage i.e. pierce/slash/crush. And how does our "Ranged" stat effect all this ? If my Focus Aim increases my Ranged to 500 (equiv to a level 100) then does this effect my chance to hit ? So many variables....

[TerriBlades]

There is at least one bow that I believe drops in Unrest. Its the Torn Ligament Longbow, and has a DR of 91.3 iirc. It comes with a dehate proc. I say I believe it drops in Unrest because I havent actually seen it myself, but I saw it on a particular flames site

Leafnin, I havent had a chance to parse out the differences on yellow and orange con mobs, but as soon as I find a tank and a healer that dont mind standing around while I auto attack a mob for 2 -5 mins for 5 different fights, I'll get right on that. However your logic is still flawed in concerning yourself with the cost of the ammo. Its my opinion (and yes, thats all it is... an opinion) that level 70 Legendary ammo should beat ANY level 60 Crafted Ammo on all levels. Your cost arguement would be the same as saying, well level 60 handcrafted gear should be close to or near as good as a level 70 Legendary No Trade drop in a heroic instance, because after all, you didnt have to pay for the Legendary piece .

 Slightly off topic, I love the rate of arrow consumtion. Was a bit wierd finishing up a raid to find that I used only 2 stacks of arrows. (was a little late getting in, but I would have more then likely burned through more then 1/2 a quiver instead of 2 stacks)

 Edit. I wanted to add that Longbow mentioned above is legendary attunable. Rangers everywhere can now get a half decent bow. Long over due if you ask me.

[Gareorn]

TerriBlades wrote:

There is at least one bow that I believe drops in Unrest. Its the Torn Ligament Longbow, and has a DR of 91.3 iirc. It comes with a dehate proc. I say I believe it drops in Unrest because I havent actually seen it myself, but I saw it on a particular flames site

Leafnin, I havent had a chance to parse out the differences on yellow and orange con mobs, but as soon as I find a tank and a healer that dont mind standing around while I auto attack a mob for 2 -5 mins for 5 different fights, I'll get right on that. However your logic is still flawed in concerning yourself with the cost of the ammo. Its my opinion (and yes, thats all it is... an opinion) that level 70 Legendary ammo should beat ANY level 60 Crafted Ammo on all levels. Your cost arguement would be the same as saying, well level 60 handcrafted gear should be close to or near as good as a level 70 Legendary No Trade drop in a heroic instance, because after all, you didnt have to pay for the Legendary piece .

 Slightly off topic, I love the rate of arrow consumtion. Was a bit wierd finishing up a raid to find that I used only 2 stacks of arrows. (was a little late getting in, but I would have more then likely burned through more then 1/2 a quiver instead of 2 stacks)

 Edit. I wanted to add that Longbow mentioned above is legendary attunable. Rangers everywhere can now get a half decent bow. Long over due if you ask me.

And it's tradeable!  Up for sale on my server for 18 plat already.  LOL.

[TerriBlades]

Yes, yes it is, that's why I stated it was attunable... my apologizes if that was unclear. 18P However seems a little much considering you can do this zone every day till you get one (if you need one) Hell I don't need one, but I might get it anyways. I seem to have an ever growing collection of bows atm, why not add one more.

[Arleonenis]

summoned ammo still is much better dps wise than crafted arrows. Ranger in my guild after grabing arrow summoning bow get over 150 dps over crafted ammo he used earlier so yes its still very much desirable

[Gareorn]

After a weekend of raiding I can really see how the different arrows are going to perform.  This week, I used makeshift and bodkin arrows.  The +10% chance to hit made a big difference.  My zonewide in Lyceum showed a hit percentage of 83% using the makeshift.  I used the bodkin arrows in Lab the following night and my hit percentage was raised to 90%.

I decided to stick with the bodkin arrows in DT.  My hit percentage dropped to 72%.  For the higher level mobs, the field point arrows (+50%) may be the way to go.  It looks like that there is going to be a real need for each type of arrow.  Next weekend I'll be trying out the field points.

[chrystolr]

New arrow from a recipe in EH....Im sure these are gona be expensive because it seems EH loot takes rares...but wow.