Raiding as a Warden: where are you at?

Eyes_of_Truth · 02-28-2007, 01:53 PM

As a 70 warden in a high end raiding guild, i find that the only group im remotely helpful in is the maintank group, but i run into a problem:

There is no room for me there for most content.

When we are healing outside of our group, we only have 2 heals (and a instant cast heal) avalible, and our regeneration if another druid isnt doing that, so we are, imo, one of the weakest cross-healers. Not to get into a "class envy" style, but furies are much better suited to this task thanks to their Back into the Fray heal, as well as their shorter recast timers on their other two heals.

Our "normal" MT group set up is a guardian, templar, defiler, dirge, coercer, and a hate transfer (assassin/swash). My raid leader hardly ever puts me in their unless the content's damage output is incredibly high, so i would say that 80%+ of the time im just in the group with the pally/warlock to keep them alive, which a fury would be much better suited to do.

Considering we dont offer any meaningful offensive capacity to the raid, and their most of our healing is in our group target only heals, is their any place that we are useful besides the maintank/offtank group?

Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group.

Considering we offer increased power/wis for the other two MT healers, power regen for tank, a heavy dose of agility and defense, a regeneration reactive buff, and the highest total healing potienital when grouped with the target, do you think it would be wise to try the berserker main tank idea?

Also, our Temp and Dirge have the trigger increase, so if i went down the Str line again, i would have 24% chance to group heal for 455 on any melee attack or CA, and i would have around a 40% chance to crit heal with the dirge and coercer's % increase to crit heals. Using Tunare's two healing increased diety abilities, i increased my healing for 65% for a minute, used Heriophantic Advent, and got a crit, healing for 1400+ every 2 seconds for 19 tics, it was an insane ammount of healing, and kept the tank between 80-100% for the duration, and it was a paladin!

So, just wondering, where do you find yourseld while raiding? And, what AA's do you find useful in your set up?

Fromingo · 02-28-2007, 04:21 PM

Eyes_of_Truth wrote:

Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group.

If your berserker is pulling off aggro from that type of set up he is probably in offensive mode. In defensive mode he will still aggro well but I doubt he can pull aggro from a guardian, with that group set up, using DPS alone. So when you put that zerker into a MT role, where he has to go defensive, he will want a similar hate set up because he lost some DPS.

You could raid well with a little less hate buffers and a warden in group. Just have to get the raid used to holding back a bit more early on. Most don't have that type of restraint though.

GinFan · 02-28-2007, 06:32 PM

As posted elsewhere, but often forgotten, in order for Dirge and/or Coercer hate gains to work to their fullest, the MT has to be able to hit target, something that our +65 skill buff helps them do when facing Orange con epics.

Eyes_of_Truth · 03-02-2007, 01:23 PM

Fromingo wrote:

Eyes_of_Truth wrote:
Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group.
If your berserker is pulling off aggro from that type of set up he is probably in offensive mode. In defensive mode he will still aggro well but I doubt he can pull aggro from a guardian, with that group set up, using DPS alone. So when you put that zerker into a MT role, where he has to go defensive, he will want a similar hate set up because he lost some DPS.
You could raid well with a little less hate buffers and a warden in group. Just have to get the raid used to holding back a bit more early on. Most don't have that type of restraint though.

Well, funny enough, if i recall correctly, he was fighting in defensive stance incase the guardian went down, i believe it was one of the sets of 4 vampires in Freethinkers, or something such. He also did it again while fighting a single target foe. The only hate transfer he was recieving would have possibly been a swashbuckler in the off-tank group.

The only problem with asking the raid to hold back a little bit is, well, the raid leader is a warlock SMILEY , so i think he likes to keep the raid's hate generation as high as possible so he can maxamize his dps lol, nothing wrong with that, as his dps IS freaking off the charts, but on difficult contient, i think we'll really need the survivability factor.

I and my fellow defiler and templar think that our berserker should definately, if nothing else, tank the multiple mob encounters, as his aoe hate generation vastly surpasses the guardian's.

Yesterday we took down the 3rd (and aurguably the hardest by some accounts) named in Freethinkers with a set up of Guardian, Templar, Defiler, Mystic, Warden, and Coercer, since our dirge is sick/busy lol. Defiler was spam-curing so his heal parse was only around 7%, mine was around 14%, mystic was around 16%, and templar was around 22%, since we had a LARGE ammount of healers on that night in the raid lol. On a previous attempt, it was actually very cool, me, the defiler, and the templar all reached 19%, was nice to see that we worked well together, balanced out nicely.

That fight wasnt a heavy burn though, so hate generation wasnt a concern. When we get to the heavy aoe burn contient such as in Emerald Halls, i think we should try out the berserker.

Oh, as a side note, with my added agility and sandstorm, our tank's avoidance rose by around 4-5%, so we do contribute a fair ammount of defense in that regard SMILEY

One thing i would love to see, is our Tranquility cure all cureable effects on the ally, and heal for each, with a 1 second casting timer. This would add a lot of use to a spell that i hardly cast now. In its current state, by the time 1.5 seconds has gone off, a defiler/mystic could have cured around 3 to 4 effects. Its far too slow for a reasonable cure on raids.

Ideally, i would like it to remain as-is with the current 1.5 cast time and 1 minute reuse, and have the AA line not only reduce the recast timer, but lower the casting time eventually to .75, half its current casting time, and increase the cure ammounts to remove up to 3 of each effect type. This would make getting the cure AA worth the investment, as well as make the spell a functional ability in are arsinal, rather than a fluff spell.

Would be nice to cure several effects and produce a niffty heal while doing so SMILEY

Well, hopefully things will work out for the best; i foresee myself being with what ever maintank we go with for a long time once we start getting deep into EH SMILEY

Masuri_Sukawa · 03-02-2007, 05:22 PM

I am kind of the 'spare' warden in my guild. The main tank group usually looks like this: paladin/guardian, coercer, defiler, templar, warden, swash. If the main warden is around, he fills that role and I heal the second tank group.

I find that I can still be very effective throwing heals here, there, and everywhere from group 4. I heal on the main tank, I heal on the second tank, I heal the casters and the melees. I click and heal, click and heal. I think that how effective you are from a non-main tank group depends entirely on how hard you are willing to work.

--Amani

Soliestra · 03-03-2007, 09:51 PM

I find myself sitting out of raids usually. Guild has 2 wardens, wardens are not melee buffers or caster buffers and aren't a primary MT buffer(like a shaman or cleric) so i usually dont find myself in the OT group. So yah, wish we could get some sort of love as far as buffing dps. One combat skills buff just doesnt seem to be enough to replace the dps mods/haste of inquis, or str/haste of a shaman, or even the proc bonus of a templar.

mindygoth · 03-06-2007, 10:39 AM

I'm the main warden in our guild, and our MT setup usually includes me SMILEY

We use Guard, Dirge, Defiler, Templar, Warden and either Swash/assassin for hate transfer or a Coercer, depending who shows up.

We find the Warden in the MT grp useful for upping the Guard's attack, spores as a tick-over heal, and our WIS buffs to increase resistances for raid mobs with magic-type AE's (rather than trauma type), that and having the 3 different archetypes of healer gives him good overall buffage SMILEY

For agro we tend to work to decrease the hate gain of high DPS classes in our raids, rather than solely focussing on giving the MT the absolute max hate gain possible. So our really big hitters will tend to have a troub, a chanter or a pally watching over them.

Drtydog · 03-19-2007, 03:08 PM

For whatever it's worth we're pretty successfull high end raiding on BB. I'm usually the warden in the raid. We usually raid with 6 healers, sometimes 7.

I'm usually in the off tank grp or one of the single healer grps othwise known as dps. Mt grp usually consists of a mystic, templar, assassin/hate trf, conjurer, guard, mana regen. If we are going against the last named in whatever raid zone then a third healer is sometimes moved to the mt grp

Fromingo · 03-19-2007, 04:31 PM

Eyes_of_Truth wrote:

Well, funny enough, if i recall correctly, he was fighting in defensive stance incase the guardian went down, i believe it was one of the sets of 4 vampires in Freethinkers, or something such. He also did it again while fighting a single target foe. The only hate transfer he was recieving would have possibly been a swashbuckler in the off-tank group.

Well if he had a swashy transferring then that's a different ballgame. Especially if he was also taunting trying to make sure he's next on the hate list which sounds like he probably was given your statement that he was prepping in case the MT fell. That's a tricky balance to make work. Personally I'd just have rescue ready/dirge to lock hate on me if the MT fell.

Oakum · 03-19-2007, 04:55 PM

I have to agree with a warden is not needed in a off tank/dps group. If needed we belong in the MT group. However I do not hardcore raid. I do alliance raids but from my observations from raiding and reading forums both that is what I see.

The warden is needed in the MT group when a lot of healing is needed. As the healer in the other group if you have to have two of the same type, then even a second templer in the offtank group is more valuable then a warden.

Now since we don't have one of each type for every raid, I have found myself in a dps group before. Its pretty relaxing really, especially if another warden is already in the MT group. Melee away and heal as necessary. If you go down from an AOE while meleeing, you will be one of the first one rezzed and hopefully you will have used most of your power meleeing before you died so you didn't waste a lot of power by dying. lol

02-28-2007, 04:21 PM	#2
Fromingo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 536	Eyes_of_Truth wrote: Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group. If your berserker is pulling off aggro from that type of set up he is probably in offensive mode. In defensive mode he will still aggro well but I doubt he can pull aggro from a guardian, with that group set up, using DPS alone. So when you put that zerker into a MT role, where he has to go defensive, he will want a similar hate set up because he lost some DPS. You could raid well with a little less hate buffers and a warden in group. Just have to get the raid used to holding back a bit more early on. Most don't have that type of restraint though.

02-28-2007, 06:32 PM	#3
GinFan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 139	As posted elsewhere, but often forgotten, in order for Dirge and/or Coercer hate gains to work to their fullest, the MT has to be able to hit target, something that our +65 skill buff helps them do when facing Orange con epics. __________________ Level 70 Warden, Bruiser, Troubadour, Tailor, Provisioner 350 Transmuter, T4 Defiler, T4 Inquisitor, T3 Swashbuckler

03-02-2007, 01:23 PM	#4
Eyes_of_Truth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Fromingo wrote: Eyes_of_Truth wrote: Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group. If your berserker is pulling off aggro from that type of set up he is probably in offensive mode. In defensive mode he will still aggro well but I doubt he can pull aggro from a guardian, with that group set up, using DPS alone. So when you put that zerker into a MT role, where he has to go defensive, he will want a similar hate set up because he lost some DPS. You could raid well with a little less hate buffers and a warden in group. Just have to get the raid used to holding back a bit more early on. Most don't have that type of restraint though. Well, funny enough, if i recall correctly, he was fighting in defensive stance incase the guardian went down, i believe it was one of the sets of 4 vampires in Freethinkers, or something such. He also did it again while fighting a single target foe. The only hate transfer he was recieving would have possibly been a swashbuckler in the off-tank group. The only problem with asking the raid to hold back a little bit is, well, the raid leader is a warlock , so i think he likes to keep the raid's hate generation as high as possible so he can maxamize his dps lol, nothing wrong with that, as his dps IS freaking off the charts, but on difficult contient, i think we'll really need the survivability factor. I and my fellow defiler and templar think that our berserker should definately, if nothing else, tank the multiple mob encounters, as his aoe hate generation vastly surpasses the guardian's. Yesterday we took down the 3rd (and aurguably the hardest by some accounts) named in Freethinkers with a set up of Guardian, Templar, Defiler, Mystic, Warden, and Coercer, since our dirge is sick/busy lol. Defiler was spam-curing so his heal parse was only around 7%, mine was around 14%, mystic was around 16%, and templar was around 22%, since we had a LARGE ammount of healers on that night in the raid lol. On a previous attempt, it was actually very cool, me, the defiler, and the templar all reached 19%, was nice to see that we worked well together, balanced out nicely. That fight wasnt a heavy burn though, so hate generation wasnt a concern. When we get to the heavy aoe burn contient such as in Emerald Halls, i think we should try out the berserker. Oh, as a side note, with my added agility and sandstorm, our tank's avoidance rose by around 4-5%, so we do contribute a fair ammount of defense in that regard One thing i would love to see, is our Tranquility cure all cureable effects on the ally, and heal for each, with a 1 second casting timer. This would add a lot of use to a spell that i hardly cast now. In its current state, by the time 1.5 seconds has gone off, a defiler/mystic could have cured around 3 to 4 effects. Its far too slow for a reasonable cure on raids. Ideally, i would like it to remain as-is with the current 1.5 cast time and 1 minute reuse, and have the AA line not only reduce the recast timer, but lower the casting time eventually to .75, half its current casting time, and increase the cure ammounts to remove up to 3 of each effect type. This would make getting the cure AA worth the investment, as well as make the spell a functional ability in are arsinal, rather than a fluff spell. Would be nice to cure several effects and produce a niffty heal while doing so Well, hopefully things will work out for the best; i foresee myself being with what ever maintank we go with for a long time once we start getting deep into EH

03-06-2007, 10:39 AM	#7
mindygoth Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 31	I'm the main warden in our guild, and our MT setup usually includes me We use Guard, Dirge, Defiler, Templar, Warden and either Swash/assassin for hate transfer or a Coercer, depending who shows up. We find the Warden in the MT grp useful for upping the Guard's attack, spores as a tick-over heal, and our WIS buffs to increase resistances for raid mobs with magic-type AE's (rather than trauma type), that and having the 3 different archetypes of healer gives him good overall buffage For agro we tend to work to decrease the hate gain of high DPS classes in our raids, rather than solely focussing on giving the MT the absolute max hate gain possible. So our really big hitters will tend to have a troub, a chanter or a pally watching over them.

03-19-2007, 03:08 PM	#8
Drtydog Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	For whatever it's worth we're pretty successfull high end raiding on BB. I'm usually the warden in the raid. We usually raid with 6 healers, sometimes 7. I'm usually in the off tank grp or one of the single healer grps othwise known as dps. Mt grp usually consists of a mystic, templar, assassin/hate trf, conjurer, guard, mana regen. If we are going against the last named in whatever raid zone then a third healer is sometimes moved to the mt grp __________________ Octavos---- --80 Paly 80 Weaponsmith Galand --------80 ShadowKnight 80 Carpenter Mugmandos---80 Mystic 80 Alchemist Ratikal---------80 Dirge 80 Sage Savin-----------72 Warden 80 Jeweler Ashaa----------70 Bruiser 80 Armorer Kierra----------62 Assassin 80 Woodworker Vexulm--------35 Warlock 80 Tailor

02-28-2007, 01:53 PM	#1
Eyes_of_Truth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	As a 70 warden in a high end raiding guild, i find that the only group im remotely helpful in is the maintank group, but i run into a problem: There is no room for me there for most content. When we are healing outside of our group, we only have 2 heals (and a instant cast heal) avalible, and our regeneration if another druid isnt doing that, so we are, imo, one of the weakest cross-healers. Not to get into a "class envy" style, but furies are much better suited to this task thanks to their Back into the Fray heal, as well as their shorter recast timers on their other two heals. Our "normal" MT group set up is a guardian, templar, defiler, dirge, coercer, and a hate transfer (assassin/swash). My raid leader hardly ever puts me in their unless the content's damage output is incredibly high, so i would say that 80%+ of the time im just in the group with the pally/warlock to keep them alive, which a fury would be much better suited to do. Considering we dont offer any meaningful offensive capacity to the raid, and their most of our healing is in our group target only heals, is their any place that we are useful besides the maintank/offtank group? Im trying to convince my leader to try a Berserker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden (me), and Coercer combo, because our berserker can generate tremendous hate just on his own, was can sometimes strip aggro off of the mt in the above listed "max hate" group. Considering we offer increased power/wis for the other two MT healers, power regen for tank, a heavy dose of agility and defense, a regeneration reactive buff, and the highest total healing potienital when grouped with the target, do you think it would be wise to try the berserker main tank idea? Also, our Temp and Dirge have the trigger increase, so if i went down the Str line again, i would have 24% chance to group heal for 455 on any melee attack or CA, and i would have around a 40% chance to crit heal with the dirge and coercer's % increase to crit heals. Using Tunare's two healing increased diety abilities, i increased my healing for 65% for a minute, used Heriophantic Advent, and got a crit, healing for 1400+ every 2 seconds for 19 tics, it was an insane ammount of healing, and kept the tank between 80-100% for the duration, and it was a paladin! So, just wondering, where do you find yourseld while raiding? And, what AA's do you find useful in your set up?

03-02-2007, 05:22 PM	#5
Masuri_Sukawa Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	I am kind of the 'spare' warden in my guild. The main tank group usually looks like this: paladin/guardian, coercer, defiler, templar, warden, swash. If the main warden is around, he fills that role and I heal the second tank group. I find that I can still be very effective throwing heals here, there, and everywhere from group 4. I heal on the main tank, I heal on the second tank, I heal the casters and the melees. I click and heal, click and heal. I think that how effective you are from a non-main tank group depends entirely on how hard you are willing to work. --Amani

03-03-2007, 09:51 PM	#6
Soliestra Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 8	I find myself sitting out of raids usually. Guild has 2 wardens, wardens are not melee buffers or caster buffers and aren't a primary MT buffer(like a shaman or cleric) so i usually dont find myself in the OT group. So yah, wish we could get some sort of love as far as buffing dps. One combat skills buff just doesnt seem to be enough to replace the dps mods/haste of inquis, or str/haste of a shaman, or even the proc bonus of a templar.

03-19-2007, 04:31 PM	#9
Fromingo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 536	Eyes_of_Truth wrote: Well, funny enough, if i recall correctly, he was fighting in defensive stance incase the guardian went down, i believe it was one of the sets of 4 vampires in Freethinkers, or something such. He also did it again while fighting a single target foe. The only hate transfer he was recieving would have possibly been a swashbuckler in the off-tank group. Well if he had a swashy transferring then that's a different ballgame. Especially if he was also taunting trying to make sure he's next on the hate list which sounds like he probably was given your statement that he was prepping in case the MT fell. That's a tricky balance to make work. Personally I'd just have rescue ready/dirge to lock hate on me if the MT fell.

03-19-2007, 04:55 PM	#10
Oakum Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,441	I have to agree with a warden is not needed in a off tank/dps group. If needed we belong in the MT group. However I do not hardcore raid. I do alliance raids but from my observations from raiding and reading forums both that is what I see. The warden is needed in the MT group when a lot of healing is needed. As the healer in the other group if you have to have two of the same type, then even a second templer in the offtank group is more valuable then a warden. Now since we don't have one of each type for every raid, I have found myself in a dps group before. Its pretty relaxing really, especially if another warden is already in the MT group. Melee away and heal as necessary. If you go down from an AOE while meleeing, you will be one of the first one rezzed and hopefully you will have used most of your power meleeing before you died so you didn't waste a lot of power by dying. lol __________________