Sell Back Prices to NPC need to be raised.

Maroger · 06-18-2006, 09:42 PM

The sell back prices to NPC while tradeskilling are way too low and need to be raised. We need to be able to seel AT A SMALL PROFIT (which includes ALL MATS USED).

Thanks to the TS update many of the things we make can no longer be sold (esp. true of Armor and weapons) as they have had their stats reduced to the point where they are just junk. Even when made with a rare they are still JUNK!

Also, and this is true of all Tradeskills, unless you make a Pristine no one will buy your items. So you make a lot of stuff you can only sell to a vendor. Even sages have to make a lot of APP IV's and dump them to a vendor as there is no market for APP IV.

Sometimes you are missing a required component so you might have to buy a few pieces from the broker -- so please don't assume that all component by tradeskillers are self-harvested.

Please raise the price at which good are sold back to NPC vendors -- otherwise you might was well cancel tradeskill and remove them totally from the game.

Your thoughtless, ill-planned changes have truly destroyed tradeskilling and done away with the promise that Tradeskilling could be an alternative to those of use who do NOT like adventuring or adventure very little. Take a good look at tradeskills in UO -- they were a real business.

And don't tell me about what is coming in EoF -- that is 6 months down the road - we need relief NOW!!

TipzyThumbelina · 06-19-2006, 12:08 AM

I agree with the previous post. We need to get some type of monetary gain. We have no way to earn money while crafting unless it is with the endless number of items we make.

The cost of fuels is way up and there is no income.

Cynto · 06-19-2006, 12:53 AM

I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return.

Finora · 06-19-2006, 02:45 AM

Cynto wrote:
I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return.

This argument holds no water.

It is no different than it used to be. Any one who wanted to bot for cash before the patch would do subs only. You know, worts, provisioner refines, that sort of thing. It amounts to the same thing except now it costs more fuel than it used to.

And even this is no reason for them not to at least add workshop/tradeskill writs back in. Both of those were on timers and it would be impossible to do them faster than you could before the patch.

GCT · 06-19-2006, 02:46 AM

Your reasons make sense, Cynto, but really, all this does is make people more likely to go out and buy plat because they cannot afford to fund their crafing anymore.

I know I said this in a different thread already. I always find the appropriate threads to put a reply in *after* I've said my piece. *sigh*

Cynto · 06-19-2006, 03:24 AM

Calendri wrote:

Cynto wrote:
I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return.

This argument holds no water.

It is no different than it used to be. Any one who wanted to bot for cash before the patch would do subs only. You know, worts, provisioner refines, that sort of thing. It amounts to the same thing except now it costs more fuel than it used to.

And even this is no reason for them not to at least add workshop/tradeskill writs back in. Both of those were on timers and it would be impossible to do them faster than you could before the patch.

You honestly don't think that botters probably did it before with the old system so much that they decided to remove it? I'm not saying its the ONLY reason, i'm saying its a very viable reason along with many others. Also it was probably put in place to keep people from leveling so fast, because now you have to go outside to earn money. Also, they seem to want people to adventure and not just craft, which would be another reason. It could be any one or all of these together, however, I think a very large portion of it was the fact that with a bot program people could genrate money if they did it enough.

Whatever the reason is, they are not likely to give it back because it is not a bug, they announced it before the LU hit, and now we only get fuel cost back. Whether it was due to botting plat sellers, or they just didn't like the way it was working, the change was obviously made because they felt money was entering the system to quickly, and so they took it away again. I'm willing to bet my money that it was being exploited, and so they took this as a chance to remove it. So, actually, it does hold water and is a pretty valid arguement. Perhaps it wasn't due to the one click combine, i'll admit that, but obviously they thought too much money was made from it to leave it in.

Barbai · 06-19-2006, 08:52 AM

While I won't argue with you about the bot thing as lets face it in every mmo they will be there and I am sure they are still there harvesting raws to sell as they are being used more quickly now. The whole kill the masses to weed out the few idea is pretty much overkill imo. The small profit (thinking it was only 20% of cost if going straight to vendor) pretty much was what helped a large number of people to be able to afford to craft, weither it was to be able to buy some extra raws via broker or to be able to buy that next essentails books or advanced book. This is especially true in the lower levels when starting out and you don't have access to all the fancy stuff you can just sell for money. As well as speaking from a soloist perspective the income generated while adventuring solo is often minimal and the cost to upgrade your adventure gear such as armor jewerly or spells/combat arts can easily break a person that isn't in the higher end stuff.Not to mention just having the ability to gain a small profit quickly vs waiting for it to sell on broker for a larger profit will help some people just to get rid of some of the extra stock they have but arn't willing to just sell back at fuel cost.

EllaBel · 06-19-2006, 09:10 AM

I agree with the op.

I think we should be paid for our time and raws to make any item. I don't think it should matter whether the "person you are selling it to is an npc or a RL player. Not asking for a lot of extra coin just a little for my time and effort :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by EllaBella on 06-18-2006 10:11 PM

Jaimster · 06-19-2006, 09:45 AM

Not to mention that the "sell" prices from NPC's given on the broker are about 30% less than what they actually buy stuff at an npc merchant

Cynto · 06-19-2006, 04:32 PM

Barbai wrote:
While I won't argue with you about the bot thing as lets face it in every mmo they will be there and I am sure they are still there harvesting raws to sell as they are being used more quickly now. The whole kill the masses to weed out the few idea is pretty much overkill imo. The small profit (thinking it was only 20% of cost if going straight to vendor) pretty much was what helped a large number of people to be able to afford to craft, weither it was to be able to buy some extra raws via broker or to be able to buy that next essentails books or advanced book.

This is especially true in the lower levels when starting out and you don't have access to all the fancy stuff you can just sell for money. As well as speaking from a soloist perspective the income generated while adventuring solo is often minimal and the cost to upgrade your adventure gear such as armor jewerly or spells/combat arts can easily break a person that isn't in the higher end stuff.
Not to mention just having the ability to gain a small profit quickly vs waiting for it to sell on broker for a larger profit will help some people just to get rid of some of the extra stock they have but arn't willing to just sell back at fuel cost.

And since when has SoE not just used the "Well we'll nerf em all to hell and then maybe boost em up later when they all start complaining" method to "adjust" things they don't like? :p

Obadiah · 06-20-2006, 12:28 AM

I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. If you sell back to the merchant you get nothing more or less than your fuel costs. Personally, I think if you make a crude or shaped version of something the buy-back from the NPC should be LESS than your fuel costs just to remind you that you suck. :smileywink: Maybe even at the 2nd tier quality and slightly higher at pristine. That way, the only way to make any profit on them would be to get pristine, whereas I could get, what, 30-35G profit from making a bunch of shaped crap before? Nothing like prizes for mediocrity - "Hey, go hunt 10 orcs, will you? But don't kill them. Just get their health down to 50% and then run away and I'll give you 15G."

Many revamped tradeskill items are better than before the update - esp. true of all non-tank armor. These changes rock. What sucks about them is all the people saying that crafted items were nerfed and aren't as good as drops from level 8 rats. Once people get a look at some of the new stuff though, they slowly start to realize that the sky is NOT falling.

Since Weaponsmiths are kind of useless, I'm glad these changes have given me a reason to continue crafting with my Tailor and Carpenter.

Tomanak · 06-20-2006, 01:03 AM

Obadiah wrote:

It currently costs nothing to tradeskill.

This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker.

Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7.

Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink:

Obadiah · 06-20-2006, 01:21 AM

Tomanak wrote:

Obadiah wrote:

It currently costs nothing to tradeskill.

This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker.

Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7.

Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink:

I don't think you can list time as a cost, since it's your decision as a player to engage in crafting vs. adventuring. Not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just saying that's not "cost".

But you're right. I should have said "There is currently no coin cost associated with crafting unless you choose not to acquire your own raw materials from the field." However, if you haven't made any coin by the time you're, say, level 30. . . . maybe you shouldn't craft. :smileytongue:

Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on?

Kellendro · 06-20-2006, 02:28 AM

Not for not, but those Tradeskill books aren’t free, and since common goods are pretty much junk now, the only profit is in Rares, the books for which average out to an even higher cost thanks to their only source (except the T-6 ones) being “adventurers” selling them on the free market. I’ve spent at least 3p on each of my characters to get all the 1-50 books for them. Since going to T-6 I’ve spent about 3p total just getting the basic books to 56 for all of them. So ahhhh, no, Tradeskilling does not not cost anything to do. It’s pretty darn expensive actually...

TaleraRis · 06-20-2006, 03:52 AM

Obadiah wrote:

It currently costs nothing to tradeskill.

Get those recipe books for free, do you?

Obadiah · 06-20-2006, 05:41 PM

OK, OK. You got me there. :smileyvery-happy: I forgot about the books. Let's just pretend I never said leveling a crafter doesn't cost anything. /whistles innocently

I guess I just haven't noticed paying for them because they haven't put a dent in the incoming coin from t5 tailor (mostly non-rare) sales in the past week. :smileytongue: One or two sales will cover a book quite comfortably, so it's really negligible. You don't have to buy the rare ones either. That's certainly not a requirement for levelling. If you're not doing any adventuring you may want to watch the market for a while for the best prices on them, or look for them in channels and/or work out goods-for-books trades for them. Don't just rush out and buy your level 47 book for 14G just because it's the only one currently there, like, um, some of us do. :smileyhappy:

Most of the money from crafting - at least for all of my classes - was from rares before "the change". (Yes, that's right, this is crafting menopause. Take that analogy wherever you want. Run with it.) One nice thing about "the change" is that outfitter products are now geared toward specific classes so that common handcrafted goods are quite often preferable to looted alternatives, especially for non-twinks. Too bad people keep calling them crap. I bet that prevents some people from even looking at them. Me? . . . I gots me some feyiron brigandine duds on one toon, and I'll be getting more for the rat. S'pose I might get some feysteel if those prices ever come down. The more and more people that continue to erroneously declare all crafted goods junk the harder it will become to sell.

Isn't this vendor buy-back change kind of cool though? I mean, come on, the old way, with the NPC merchant buy-back at a small profit and with workshop tasks, you could basically craft your way to 70 with a level 10 adventurer gratis. I mean, the only challenge you faced was finding the raws at a low price. And if you were patient and ballsy you didn't have to buy raws at all until tier 6, where there are no safe areas. (XP debt doesn't hurt if you're not adventuring anyway) You would never have to sell your goods to a player, you never have to worry what any other crafter is selling for, it was a gift.

I've seen a lot of people complain that the "dumbed down" crafting makes it too easy, whereas prior to this only "dedicated" crafters would make it to 70. Well, dude, now actually DOES take dedication, doesn't it? If you're not getting handouts all the way (buy-back, workshop tasks "Here, make me some crap"), and you aren't just spending your main characters amassed wealth to level your crafter alt, you're going to HAVE to (gasp!) sell to adventurers to survive. So . . . there may actually be someone selling t3 armor that isn't priced for twinks-only. Maybe feysteel weapons won't be a ludicrous plat and a half because more than one person will make them. Pre-update I almost paid 6G for a piece - shoulderpads, I think - of carbonite chain for my healer. Luckily I realized that was insane.

So anyway. I obviously like what they've done. All that ranting aside, I still would support my idea, which is a compromise; Have buy-back be less than fuel costs on lower quality version of goods, slightly higher on pristine. No rewards for mediocrity, that's still silly to me. But I'm pretty sure they will add workshop tasks back at some point, or other, similar antisocial methods to make money crafting.

GCT · 06-20-2006, 05:49 PM

Obadiah wrote:

So anyway. I obviously like what they've done. All that ranting aside, I still would support my idea, which is a compromise; Have buy-back be less than fuel costs on lower quality version of goods, slightly higher on pristine. No rewards for mediocrity, that's still silly to me.

I'm pretty sure that's what most of us are asking for. SOMETHING for a buyback, so we are not continually running at a loss if our goods don't sell on the (now cutthroat) market.

Tomanak · 06-20-2006, 11:57 PM

Obadiah wrote:

Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on?

To be perfectly honest I donty know. Personally Im an adventurer first and a crafter second. However there appear to be those who have no desire at all to do anything but craft and IIRC objected even having to level their adventurers to level 7 back when you had to do a citizenship quest. My main point was simply that not everyone has the same ability to harvest large amounts of their own raws and end up having to rely on the broker system. Which adds cost.

SOE made the claim that you can be anything you wanted to be..pure crafter or pure adventurer...it just seems that they are now making it harder to be that 'pure crafter'.

Rast · 06-21-2006, 12:23 AM

One of the benefits is having a tiny power pool since all crafting powers are % based instead of fixed cost. But some people don't like the drudgery of hunting (I do both, but on different toons myself). They like playing the market, crafting and providing stuff for guildies.

Personally, I have no issues with that and think the crafting system should have been tuned to that need, not the needs of the adventurer.

Magic · 06-22-2006, 11:20 PM

I see the point of the OP, but I also see the point of it being as it is.

My money comes from adventuring and quests. I spend it on crafting and equipment. If I were a pure crafter, I couldn't depend upon vendors for my income or I'd soon be broke. If I could harvest my fuels for free, then that would be a different story!!!

In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around.

Rijacki · 06-22-2006, 11:25 PM

Aljola wrote:
In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around.

Your logic is very very flawed.Let's apply that to adventuring. When you go out and kill stuff, you probably earned some experience and skill points from it. That gain has a monetary value and should be subtracted from everything you attempt to sell to the NPC that you got as drops. Since you don't get a drop off everything you kill and/or if you were in a group you might have fewer things, for most items you would be selling to the NPC (common drops), the NPC would actually be taking money from you instead of giving it to you. No, paying for repairs is not the same thing.

Maroger · 06-22-2006, 11:29 PM

Aljola wrote:

I see the point of the OP, but I also see the point of it being as it is.

My money comes from adventuring and quests. I spend it on crafting and equipment. If I were a pure crafter, I couldn't depend upon vendors for my income or I'd soon be broke. If I could harvest my fuels for free, then that would be a different story!!!

In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around.

When the game started, it was stated that crafting would be just as viable a career path as adventuring. This change, along with others, gives the lie to these words.

Also levelling, for some classes, does not increase their chance of income -- with the recent nerfs -- the majority of products for some skill are virtually worthlessly and have to be dumped to a vendor. Also we have to buy books every level -- they are not cheap -- and the amount you get from selling to vendor will never let you buy the books.

The quality of your product is not, for many classes, especially weaponsmiths and Armorers, virtually worthless.

Your remark abought some vendors paying more is no longer true - now ALL vendors seem to be paying the same pathetic price ( this seemed to have changed with the patch today, although in the typical SOE fashion, it was not mentioned).

Also those who are crafting T6 and T7 goods were not hit as badly as lower level crafters in T2 and T3 -- T2 especially got hurt very badly. This was accompanied by a lot of dirty tricks with the books, causing you to have to go out and repurchase books you already had, because the developers deleted them and put new ones in the game .:smileymad:

SirWolven2 · 06-22-2006, 11:49 PM

Obadiah wrote:

I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill.

So all your fuels are free? I agree with the OP. There should be a small profit when vendoring your finishes.

Neric · 06-23-2006, 01:33 AM

I don't see a problem with the current system.I get lots of items per harvest, and I get my fuel cost back when I sell to the merchant, so I lose NO money.Sure I make no money, but if I harvest a rare and sell the finished good from that, I make my money there.The only thing that sells theses days is stuff made from rares anyway, the rest is just trash.The only thing that cost me is the books.Now if there was a hard to get to merchant who sold the rare books. (20 times the price of the standard book) then I would be happy! Players are screwing tradeskill guys by selling the tradeskill books for HEAPS.

Message Edited by natjur on 06-23-2006 10:35 AM

thepriz · 06-23-2006, 06:27 AM

Obadiah wrote:

Tomanak wrote:

Obadiah wrote:

It currently costs nothing to tradeskill.

This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker.

Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7.

Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink:

I don't think you can list time as a cost, since it's your decision as a player to engage in crafting vs. adventuring. Not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just saying that's not "cost".

But you're right. I should have said "There is currently no coin cost associated with crafting unless you choose not to acquire your own raw materials from the field." However, if you haven't made any coin by the time you're, say, level 30. . . . maybe you shouldn't craft. :smileytongue:

Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on?

Some people just like to craft. We where promised that crafting would be a viable way to play the game when we started playing this game. This was true and was a great way to play the game and do well for yourself. We now have been reduced back to EQ1 style of tradeskilling where almost everything you can craft is worthless. As far as why a crafter would need money would be...1) buying raws including rares2) paying for that mansion to have all the broker slots available3) paying for furniture for your house4) paying for food and drink for crafting (mostly drink)5) buying fuel for crafting6) pay for new tradeskill books7) pay the high prices for new advanced books from adventurers SMILEY

going to get an occational drink from the bar....Just to name a few

Message Edited by thepriz on 06-22-2006 07:31 PM

Calthine · 06-23-2006, 07:47 AM

While I can see several good reasons for removing our tiny little profit when vendor-dumping, I have to agree that removing it was an error. Long gone are the days when things had set prices and the average player could exploit the NPC (Turned Lumber, anyone?). The system in place before LU 24 was a good one - each raw used had a value when the NPC bought the item. It wasn't huge. The people who profited the most were people who were willing to grind all day long for silver, or exploiters using crafting bots and probably ultimately selling the plat.

If botting plat farmers is the reason for the change, I feel SoE has erred on the side of caution. Never should an anti-exploiter change be so extreme that it devalues a part of the game for the average, non-exploiting player.

There must be a solution somewhere that would allow players to at least earn the NPC cost of thier books!

Druzgotek · 06-23-2006, 08:15 AM

Indeed, sad are the days when game is tuned for platinum farmers who sell for out of game currency, and not the normal players. Quite honestly, how many people actually buy the platinum those people produce? I would guess ten percent of playerbase or less. Is crippling normal players, therefore, necessary? It just widens the gap between people who buy their platinum and those that do not.

juuniper · 06-23-2006, 08:16 AM

Let me echo those above who would like to see the buyback price raised to its pre-LU 24 level. (Although, I must say, there is a little part of me hoping that the painfully low prices we have currently drive away some of these crafting newbies) :smileytongue:

Zahmekos · 06-23-2006, 09:35 AM

Obadiah wrote:

Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on?

Not all people play to get rich. Some just play to have fun SMILEY

It may sound strange for you, but there have been people who had fun tradeskilling.

Kelader · 06-29-2006, 04:55 AM

Obadiah wrote:

I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. If you sell back to the merchant you get nothing more or less than your fuel costs. Personally, I think if you make a crude or shaped version of something the buy-back from the NPC should be LESS than your fuel costs just to remind you that you suck. :smileywink: Maybe even at the 2nd tier quality and slightly higher at pristine. That way, the only way to make any profit on them would be to get pristine, whereas I could get, what, 30-35G profit from making a bunch of shaped crap before? Nothing like prizes for mediocrity - "Hey, go hunt 10 orcs, will you? But don't kill them. Just get their health down to 50% and then run away and I'll give you 15G."

Many revamped tradeskill items are better than before the update - esp. true of all non-tank armor. These changes rock. What sucks about them is all the people saying that crafted items were nerfed and aren't as good as drops from level 8 rats. Once people get a look at some of the new stuff though, they slowly start to realize that the sky is NOT falling.

Since Weaponsmiths are kind of useless, I'm glad these changes have given me a reason to continue crafting with my Tailor and Carpenter.

I think you are on to something....It doesn't cost money to adventure either. Obviously, the profit motive should be removed from adventuring as well.

As a player since beta, I can afford to level up new crafters. However, it is expensive. There is virtually no market for low level spells, jewelery, weapons, armor, etc. As a result we spend a bunch on fuel, consumables and raws. We then dump then on the vendor for the price of fuels only.

I think that it would be reasonable to make a modest profit crafting and selling to the vendor. Ideally, it would have some relationship to an equal time spent adventuring. Maybe somewhat less since it is not as risky in terms of repair, and the chance that adventuring will not be profitable. But none the less it should be possible to make a profit without resorting to trying to sell low level or undesirable items (like apprentice lV spells) on the broker.

Sony appears to be trying to encourage crafting....they are making us level up our adventure characters in order to complete HQ's. They could also encourage crafting by making it something other then a money pit.

06-19-2006, 12:53 AM	#3
Cynto Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 144	I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return. __________________ ~The once hard-core, now soft-core EQ2 player.~ A much less grumpy crafter still plying his trade since 11-8-04.

06-19-2006, 02:45 AM	#4
Finora Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,423	Cynto wrote: I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return. This argument holds no water. It is no different than it used to be. Any one who wanted to bot for cash before the patch would do subs only. You know, worts, provisioner refines, that sort of thing. It amounts to the same thing except now it costs more fuel than it used to. And even this is no reason for them not to at least add workshop/tradeskill writs back in. Both of those were on timers and it would be impossible to do them faster than you could before the patch. __________________ Lady Finora Mystic of Prism Everfrost(Grobb) Finora of Valiant Knights Test Server

06-19-2006, 03:24 AM	#6
Cynto Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 144	Calendri wrote: Cynto wrote: I wouldn't expect for the small profit we used to get from vendoring to EVER return. Why do I say this? Because crafting has become a one click combine, and in having become that way, is much faster to make items to vendor, and far more easy to set up a bot program to craft for you, since you never need to leave the station at which you are working. They already have bot node farmers, and bot programs already exist for crafting, so it would not be much of a stretch for the bot farmers to set up mass crafting bots with all the regular harvests they get in trying to get rares. In such a case the "small profit" could easily turn into an exploitable money generator. Honestly, I think THAT is why we no longer can sell back to vendor at a profit. And as such I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to return. This argument holds no water. It is no different than it used to be. Any one who wanted to bot for cash before the patch would do subs only. You know, worts, provisioner refines, that sort of thing. It amounts to the same thing except now it costs more fuel than it used to. And even this is no reason for them not to at least add workshop/tradeskill writs back in. Both of those were on timers and it would be impossible to do them faster than you could before the patch. You honestly don't think that botters probably did it before with the old system so much that they decided to remove it? I'm not saying its the ONLY reason, i'm saying its a very viable reason along with many others. Also it was probably put in place to keep people from leveling so fast, because now you have to go outside to earn money. Also, they seem to want people to adventure and not just craft, which would be another reason. It could be any one or all of these together, however, I think a very large portion of it was the fact that with a bot program people could genrate money if they did it enough. Whatever the reason is, they are not likely to give it back because it is not a bug, they announced it before the LU hit, and now we only get fuel cost back. Whether it was due to botting plat sellers, or they just didn't like the way it was working, the change was obviously made because they felt money was entering the system to quickly, and so they took it away again. I'm willing to bet my money that it was being exploited, and so they took this as a chance to remove it. So, actually, it does hold water and is a pretty valid arguement. Perhaps it wasn't due to the one click combine, i'll admit that, but obviously they thought too much money was made from it to leave it in. __________________ ~The once hard-core, now soft-core EQ2 player.~ A much less grumpy crafter still plying his trade since 11-8-04.

06-19-2006, 08:52 AM	#7
Barbai Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 724	While I won't argue with you about the bot thing as lets face it in every mmo they will be there and I am sure they are still there harvesting raws to sell as they are being used more quickly now. The whole kill the masses to weed out the few idea is pretty much overkill imo. The small profit (thinking it was only 20% of cost if going straight to vendor) pretty much was what helped a large number of people to be able to afford to craft, weither it was to be able to buy some extra raws via broker or to be able to buy that next essentails books or advanced book. This is especially true in the lower levels when starting out and you don't have access to all the fancy stuff you can just sell for money. As well as speaking from a soloist perspective the income generated while adventuring solo is often minimal and the cost to upgrade your adventure gear such as armor jewerly or spells/combat arts can easily break a person that isn't in the higher end stuff.Not to mention just having the ability to gain a small profit quickly vs waiting for it to sell on broker for a larger profit will help some people just to get rid of some of the extra stock they have but arn't willing to just sell back at fuel cost. __________________

06-19-2006, 09:45 AM	#9
Jaimster Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	Not to mention that the "sell" prices from NPC's given on the broker are about 30% less than what they actually buy stuff at an npc merchant __________________

06-18-2006, 09:42 PM	#1
Maroger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,313	The sell back prices to NPC while tradeskilling are way too low and need to be raised. We need to be able to seel AT A SMALL PROFIT (which includes ALL MATS USED). Thanks to the TS update many of the things we make can no longer be sold (esp. true of Armor and weapons) as they have had their stats reduced to the point where they are just junk. Even when made with a rare they are still JUNK! Also, and this is true of all Tradeskills, unless you make a Pristine no one will buy your items. So you make a lot of stuff you can only sell to a vendor. Even sages have to make a lot of APP IV's and dump them to a vendor as there is no market for APP IV. Sometimes you are missing a required component so you might have to buy a few pieces from the broker -- so please don't assume that all component by tradeskillers are self-harvested. Please raise the price at which good are sold back to NPC vendors -- otherwise you might was well cancel tradeskill and remove them totally from the game. Your thoughtless, ill-planned changes have truly destroyed tradeskilling and done away with the promise that Tradeskilling could be an alternative to those of use who do NOT like adventuring or adventure very little. Take a good look at tradeskills in UO -- they were a real business. And don't tell me about what is coming in EoF -- that is 6 months down the road - we need relief NOW!!

06-19-2006, 12:08 AM	#2
TipzyThumbelina Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	I agree with the previous post. We need to get some type of monetary gain. We have no way to earn money while crafting unless it is with the endless number of items we make. The cost of fuels is way up and there is no income.

06-19-2006, 02:46 AM	#5
GCT Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 75	Your reasons make sense, Cynto, but really, all this does is make people more likely to go out and buy plat because they cannot afford to fund their crafing anymore. I know I said this in a different thread already. I always find the appropriate threads to put a reply in after I've said my piece. sigh

06-19-2006, 09:10 AM	#8
EllaBel General Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3	I agree with the op. I think we should be paid for our time and raws to make any item. I don't think it should matter whether the "person you are selling it to is an npc or a RL player. Not asking for a lot of extra coin just a little for my time and effort :smileyhappy: Message Edited by EllaBella on 06-18-2006 10:11 PM

06-19-2006, 04:32 PM	#10
Cynto Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 144	Barbai wrote: While I won't argue with you about the bot thing as lets face it in every mmo they will be there and I am sure they are still there harvesting raws to sell as they are being used more quickly now. The whole kill the masses to weed out the few idea is pretty much overkill imo. The small profit (thinking it was only 20% of cost if going straight to vendor) pretty much was what helped a large number of people to be able to afford to craft, weither it was to be able to buy some extra raws via broker or to be able to buy that next essentails books or advanced book. This is especially true in the lower levels when starting out and you don't have access to all the fancy stuff you can just sell for money. As well as speaking from a soloist perspective the income generated while adventuring solo is often minimal and the cost to upgrade your adventure gear such as armor jewerly or spells/combat arts can easily break a person that isn't in the higher end stuff. Not to mention just having the ability to gain a small profit quickly vs waiting for it to sell on broker for a larger profit will help some people just to get rid of some of the extra stock they have but arn't willing to just sell back at fuel cost. And since when has SoE not just used the "Well we'll nerf em all to hell and then maybe boost em up later when they all start complaining" method to "adjust" things they don't like? :p __________________ ~The once hard-core, now soft-core EQ2 player.~ A much less grumpy crafter still plying his trade since 11-8-04.

06-20-2006, 12:28 AM	#11
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. If you sell back to the merchant you get nothing more or less than your fuel costs. Personally, I think if you make a crude or shaped version of something the buy-back from the NPC should be LESS than your fuel costs just to remind you that you suck. :smileywink: Maybe even at the 2nd tier quality and slightly higher at pristine. That way, the only way to make any profit on them would be to get pristine, whereas I could get, what, 30-35G profit from making a bunch of shaped crap before? Nothing like prizes for mediocrity - "Hey, go hunt 10 orcs, will you? But don't kill them. Just get their health down to 50% and then run away and I'll give you 15G." Many revamped tradeskill items are better than before the update - esp. true of all non-tank armor. These changes rock. What sucks about them is all the people saying that crafted items were nerfed and aren't as good as drops from level 8 rats. Once people get a look at some of the new stuff though, they slowly start to realize that the sky is NOT falling. Since Weaponsmiths are kind of useless, I'm glad these changes have given me a reason to continue crafting with my Tailor and Carpenter. __________________

06-20-2006, 01:03 AM	#12
Tomanak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 595	Obadiah wrote: It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker. Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7. Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink: __________________

06-20-2006, 01:21 AM	#13
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	Tomanak wrote: Obadiah wrote: It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker. Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7. Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink: I don't think you can list time as a cost, since it's your decision as a player to engage in crafting vs. adventuring. Not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just saying that's not "cost". But you're right. I should have said "There is currently no coin cost associated with crafting unless you choose not to acquire your own raw materials from the field." However, if you haven't made any coin by the time you're, say, level 30. . . . maybe you shouldn't craft. :smileytongue: Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on? __________________

06-20-2006, 02:28 AM	#14
Kellendro Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6	Not for not, but those Tradeskill books aren’t free, and since common goods are pretty much junk now, the only profit is in Rares, the books for which average out to an even higher cost thanks to their only source (except the T-6 ones) being “adventurers” selling them on the free market. I’ve spent at least 3p on each of my characters to get all the 1-50 books for them. Since going to T-6 I’ve spent about 3p total just getting the basic books to 56 for all of them. So ahhhh, no, Tradeskilling does not not cost anything to do. It’s pretty darn expensive actually...

06-20-2006, 03:52 AM	#15
TaleraRis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 2,083	Obadiah wrote: It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. Get those recipe books for free, do you? __________________ Gwyneth Lecarde 90 Warty Arrow Flinger 90 Sword Shiner Najena Morgasand Ka'Bael 54 Roswellian Mind Scrambler 87 Shield Polisher Najena

06-20-2006, 05:41 PM	#16
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	OK, OK. You got me there. :smileyvery-happy: I forgot about the books. Let's just pretend I never said leveling a crafter doesn't cost anything. /whistles innocently I guess I just haven't noticed paying for them because they haven't put a dent in the incoming coin from t5 tailor (mostly non-rare) sales in the past week. :smileytongue: One or two sales will cover a book quite comfortably, so it's really negligible. You don't have to buy the rare ones either. That's certainly not a requirement for levelling. If you're not doing any adventuring you may want to watch the market for a while for the best prices on them, or look for them in channels and/or work out goods-for-books trades for them. Don't just rush out and buy your level 47 book for 14G just because it's the only one currently there, like, um, some of us do. :smileyhappy: Most of the money from crafting - at least for all of my classes - was from rares before "the change". (Yes, that's right, this is crafting menopause. Take that analogy wherever you want. Run with it.) One nice thing about "the change" is that outfitter products are now geared toward specific classes so that common handcrafted goods are quite often preferable to looted alternatives, especially for non-twinks. Too bad people keep calling them crap. I bet that prevents some people from even looking at them. Me? . . . I gots me some feyiron brigandine duds on one toon, and I'll be getting more for the rat. S'pose I might get some feysteel if those prices ever come down. The more and more people that continue to erroneously declare all crafted goods junk the harder it will become to sell. Isn't this vendor buy-back change kind of cool though? I mean, come on, the old way, with the NPC merchant buy-back at a small profit and with workshop tasks, you could basically craft your way to 70 with a level 10 adventurer gratis. I mean, the only challenge you faced was finding the raws at a low price. And if you were patient and ballsy you didn't have to buy raws at all until tier 6, where there are no safe areas. (XP debt doesn't hurt if you're not adventuring anyway) You would never have to sell your goods to a player, you never have to worry what any other crafter is selling for, it was a gift. I've seen a lot of people complain that the "dumbed down" crafting makes it too easy, whereas prior to this only "dedicated" crafters would make it to 70. Well, dude, now actually DOES take dedication, doesn't it? If you're not getting handouts all the way (buy-back, workshop tasks "Here, make me some crap"), and you aren't just spending your main characters amassed wealth to level your crafter alt, you're going to HAVE to (gasp!) sell to adventurers to survive. So . . . there may actually be someone selling t3 armor that isn't priced for twinks-only. Maybe feysteel weapons won't be a ludicrous plat and a half because more than one person will make them. Pre-update I almost paid 6G for a piece - shoulderpads, I think - of carbonite chain for my healer. Luckily I realized that was insane. So anyway. I obviously like what they've done. All that ranting aside, I still would support my idea, which is a compromise; Have buy-back be less than fuel costs on lower quality version of goods, slightly higher on pristine. No rewards for mediocrity, that's still silly to me. But I'm pretty sure they will add workshop tasks back at some point, or other, similar antisocial methods to make money crafting. __________________

06-20-2006, 05:49 PM	#17
GCT Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 75	Obadiah wrote: So anyway. I obviously like what they've done. All that ranting aside, I still would support my idea, which is a compromise; Have buy-back be less than fuel costs on lower quality version of goods, slightly higher on pristine. No rewards for mediocrity, that's still silly to me. I'm pretty sure that's what most of us are asking for. SOMETHING for a buyback, so we are not continually running at a loss if our goods don't sell on the (now cutthroat) market.

06-20-2006, 11:57 PM	#18
Tomanak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 595	Obadiah wrote: Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on? To be perfectly honest I donty know. Personally Im an adventurer first and a crafter second. However there appear to be those who have no desire at all to do anything but craft and IIRC objected even having to level their adventurers to level 7 back when you had to do a citizenship quest. My main point was simply that not everyone has the same ability to harvest large amounts of their own raws and end up having to rely on the broker system. Which adds cost. SOE made the claim that you can be anything you wanted to be..pure crafter or pure adventurer...it just seems that they are now making it harder to be that 'pure crafter'. __________________

06-21-2006, 12:23 AM	#19
Rast General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,805	One of the benefits is having a tiny power pool since all crafting powers are % based instead of fixed cost. But some people don't like the drudgery of hunting (I do both, but on different toons myself). They like playing the market, crafting and providing stuff for guildies. Personally, I have no issues with that and think the crafting system should have been tuned to that need, not the needs of the adventurer. __________________ Ancient Council Jalathan T'Varik (90 Paladin) Rhapsodee Windsong (90 Troubador) Garaok (90 Brigand) Tytherian (90 Templar) Shaydroth (51 Illusionist) Raston Roderick (28 Assassin) Saphyrria (21 Warlock) Concordia Discors Jalathe Stoneshield (34 Guardian)

06-22-2006, 11:20 PM	#20
Magic General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: In front of my computer Posts: 359	I see the point of the OP, but I also see the point of it being as it is. My money comes from adventuring and quests. I spend it on crafting and equipment. If I were a pure crafter, I couldn't depend upon vendors for my income or I'd soon be broke. If I could harvest my fuels for free, then that would be a different story!!! In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around. __________________ Soloist addicted to finding fabled gear.

06-22-2006, 11:25 PM	#21
Rijacki Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,842	Aljola wrote: In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around. Your logic is very very flawed.Let's apply that to adventuring. When you go out and kill stuff, you probably earned some experience and skill points from it. That gain has a monetary value and should be subtracted from everything you attempt to sell to the NPC that you got as drops. Since you don't get a drop off everything you kill and/or if you were in a group you might have fewer things, for most items you would be selling to the NPC (common drops), the NPC would actually be taking money from you instead of giving it to you. No, paying for repairs is not the same thing. __________________

06-22-2006, 11:29 PM	#22
Maroger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,313	Aljola wrote: I see the point of the OP, but I also see the point of it being as it is. My money comes from adventuring and quests. I spend it on crafting and equipment. If I were a pure crafter, I couldn't depend upon vendors for my income or I'd soon be broke. If I could harvest my fuels for free, then that would be a different story!!! In my opinion, the reason for the monetary loss is simple. You've probably earned some experience and skill points while making your wares so you gained something from it. That gain has a monetary value that is subtracted when you sell it to a vendor. I realize that some crafters are already at max on their skills but the vendor doesn't care about that. I sell to the vendor for a quick sale and cut my losses (better than destroying the items). Some vendors compound the problem when they pay less than the other vendors would. Shop around. When the game started, it was stated that crafting would be just as viable a career path as adventuring. This change, along with others, gives the lie to these words. Also levelling, for some classes, does not increase their chance of income -- with the recent nerfs -- the majority of products for some skill are virtually worthlessly and have to be dumped to a vendor. Also we have to buy books every level -- they are not cheap -- and the amount you get from selling to vendor will never let you buy the books. The quality of your product is not, for many classes, especially weaponsmiths and Armorers, virtually worthless. Your remark abought some vendors paying more is no longer true - now ALL vendors seem to be paying the same pathetic price ( this seemed to have changed with the patch today, although in the typical SOE fashion, it was not mentioned). Also those who are crafting T6 and T7 goods were not hit as badly as lower level crafters in T2 and T3 -- T2 especially got hurt very badly. This was accompanied by a lot of dirty tricks with the books, causing you to have to go out and repurchase books you already had, because the developers deleted them and put new ones in the game .:smileymad:

06-22-2006, 11:49 PM	#23
SirWolven2 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 15	Obadiah wrote: I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. So all your fuels are free? I agree with the OP. There should be a small profit when vendoring your finishes.

06-23-2006, 01:33 AM	#24
Neric Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 88	I don't see a problem with the current system.I get lots of items per harvest, and I get my fuel cost back when I sell to the merchant, so I lose NO money.Sure I make no money, but if I harvest a rare and sell the finished good from that, I make my money there.The only thing that sells theses days is stuff made from rares anyway, the rest is just trash.The only thing that cost me is the books.Now if there was a hard to get to merchant who sold the rare books. (20 times the price of the standard book) then I would be happy! Players are screwing tradeskill guys by selling the tradeskill books for HEAPS. Message Edited by natjur on 06-23-2006 10:35 AM __________________

06-23-2006, 06:27 AM	#25
thepriz Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 219	Obadiah wrote: Tomanak wrote: Obadiah wrote: It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. This is an erroneous assumption on your part. It costs time and for some the amount they have to pay for raws from the broker. Yes they could just go get it themselves, but I seriously dont see too many 70 crafter/10 adventurers doing too well in T7. Personally Im not bothered by this, I make a whole lot more adventuring than I do crafting, but there are those who do not wish to adventure and according to SOE this was/should be a viable option. I have to agree that this is simply one more nail in the coffins of those who chose not to adventure. Maybe we should all be provisioners and woodworkers...food and totems sell well :smileywink: I don't think you can list time as a cost, since it's your decision as a player to engage in crafting vs. adventuring. Not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just saying that's not "cost". But you're right. I should have said "There is currently no coin cost associated with crafting unless you choose not to acquire your own raw materials from the field." However, if you haven't made any coin by the time you're, say, level 30. . . . maybe you shouldn't craft. :smileytongue: Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on? Some people just like to craft. We where promised that crafting would be a viable way to play the game when we started playing this game. This was true and was a great way to play the game and do well for yourself. We now have been reduced back to EQ1 style of tradeskilling where almost everything you can craft is worthless. As far as why a crafter would need money would be...1) buying raws including rares2) paying for that mansion to have all the broker slots available3) paying for furniture for your house4) paying for food and drink for crafting (mostly drink)5) buying fuel for crafting6) pay for new tradeskill books7) pay the high prices for new advanced books from adventurers going to get an occational drink from the bar....Just to name a few Message Edited by thepriz on 06-22-2006 07:31 PM __________________

06-23-2006, 07:47 AM	#26
Calthine ZAM EQII Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,439	While I can see several good reasons for removing our tiny little profit when vendor-dumping, I have to agree that removing it was an error. Long gone are the days when things had set prices and the average player could exploit the NPC (Turned Lumber, anyone?). The system in place before LU 24 was a good one - each raw used had a value when the NPC bought the item. It wasn't huge. The people who profited the most were people who were willing to grind all day long for silver, or exploiters using crafting bots and probably ultimately selling the plat. If botting plat farmers is the reason for the change, I feel SoE has erred on the side of caution. Never should an anti-exploiter change be so extreme that it devalues a part of the game for the average, non-exploiting player. There must be a solution somewhere that would allow players to at least earn the NPC cost of thier books! __________________ Please visit my non-gaming Blog! or follow me on Twitter!

06-23-2006, 08:15 AM	#27
Druzgotek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 109	Indeed, sad are the days when game is tuned for platinum farmers who sell for out of game currency, and not the normal players. Quite honestly, how many people actually buy the platinum those people produce? I would guess ten percent of playerbase or less. Is crippling normal players, therefore, necessary? It just widens the gap between people who buy their platinum and those that do not. __________________ * L80 Necromancer, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Berzerker, Defiler * * L80 Sage, Alchemist, Armorer, Jeweler, Tailor *

06-23-2006, 08:16 AM	#28
juuniper Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5	Let me echo those above who would like to see the buyback price raised to its pre-LU 24 level. (Although, I must say, there is a little part of me hoping that the painfully low prices we have currently drive away some of these crafting newbies) :smileytongue: __________________

06-23-2006, 09:35 AM	#29
Zahmekos General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 108	Obadiah wrote: Can I ask a question though. . . and this really has nothing to do with the LU . . . I'm not saying it shouldn't be an option . . . and I still think it IS a viable option . . . more challenging, to be sure. . . but . . . what would the purpose of having a level 10 adventurer / level 70 crafter and no adventuring toons be? I mean . . . what is there to spend your money on? Not all people play to get rich. Some just play to have fun It may sound strange for you, but there have been people who had fun tradeskilling.

06-29-2006, 04:55 AM	#30
Kelader Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 20	Obadiah wrote: I think the changes are all logical. It currently costs nothing to tradeskill. If you sell back to the merchant you get nothing more or less than your fuel costs. Personally, I think if you make a crude or shaped version of something the buy-back from the NPC should be LESS than your fuel costs just to remind you that you suck. :smileywink: Maybe even at the 2nd tier quality and slightly higher at pristine. That way, the only way to make any profit on them would be to get pristine, whereas I could get, what, 30-35G profit from making a bunch of shaped crap before? Nothing like prizes for mediocrity - "Hey, go hunt 10 orcs, will you? But don't kill them. Just get their health down to 50% and then run away and I'll give you 15G." Many revamped tradeskill items are better than before the update - esp. true of all non-tank armor. These changes rock. What sucks about them is all the people saying that crafted items were nerfed and aren't as good as drops from level 8 rats. Once people get a look at some of the new stuff though, they slowly start to realize that the sky is NOT falling. Since Weaponsmiths are kind of useless, I'm glad these changes have given me a reason to continue crafting with my Tailor and Carpenter. I think you are on to something....It doesn't cost money to adventure either. Obviously, the profit motive should be removed from adventuring as well. As a player since beta, I can afford to level up new crafters. However, it is expensive. There is virtually no market for low level spells, jewelery, weapons, armor, etc. As a result we spend a bunch on fuel, consumables and raws. We then dump then on the vendor for the price of fuels only. I think that it would be reasonable to make a modest profit crafting and selling to the vendor. Ideally, it would have some relationship to an equal time spent adventuring. Maybe somewhat less since it is not as risky in terms of repair, and the chance that adventuring will not be profitable. But none the less it should be possible to make a profit without resorting to trying to sell low level or undesirable items (like apprentice lV spells) on the broker. Sony appears to be trying to encourage crafting....they are making us level up our adventure characters in order to complete HQ's. They could also encourage crafting by making it something other then a money pit.