Bring back some form of RISK!

Phank · 03-01-2006, 08:20 PM

The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

Ildarus · 03-01-2006, 09:13 PM

bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by Ildarus on 03-01-200608:13 AM

Giral · 03-01-2006, 09:40 PM

to put a slightly diffrent twist on your idea Phank , they could implement certain instances with Shared debt and Up the exp rate slightly and also Increase the Debt the group get's

sunmagic · 03-01-2006, 09:44 PM

Ildarus wrote:
bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy:
Message Edited by Ildarus on 03-01-200608:13 AM

I'm not sure about that. If I were in a group and worked with everyone before I'd want that say "4%" XP. Why not?I'm doing groups just for XP. If it's gets me leveled faster that's great! But I can see the downside to this. But thenyou can always leave the group if it sucked. SMILEY

EternallyConfuzzled · 03-01-2006, 09:50 PM

>The game needs risk. Bottom line.

This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.

Terabethia · 03-01-2006, 09:53 PM

I am still curious about how people equated spirit shards to any sort of risk. When you die now, you still take a 10% hit to your gear, and you get about 3x the amount of debt you used to get. A shard didn't really do anything for you. If you simply logged out, it would be returned in 3 days. You could play without it, and just loose a small % of your stats. Or, you can do what 80% of the players did and petition that it was unrecoverable and have a GM get it. The latter is the exact reason that they removed the shards. They were sick of their GM's spending half their day recovering shards. So if you want to blame anyone, blame the players, not SoE.

Shards do not equal risk. They never did. If you are the type of player that will try something that you know you probably can't do, you are going to do that with or without the possible loss of a shard. It's not like they were hard to go back and get. And most of the time, you simply get a rez and a shard never appeared.

There is plenty of risk in this game, including penalties of death. Please let the shard argument go. If you want a real, true risk, go play EQ1. When you die... you actually leave your whole corpse! And if you don't go get it, it just rots with everything you own on it. That is risk. A glowing shard on the ground is not.

skidmark · 03-01-2006, 09:54 PM

PvP, it is exciting

EtoilePirate · 03-01-2006, 10:07 PM

Risk is entirely where you choose to find it. It took me forever to ding 61 because I had debt for nearly all of level 60. Was it because of my groups? No, not at all. I was consistently grouped with some really teriffic people who know what they're doing, and as a result only had a half-dozen group wipes in all that time. It was because I chose exploration, and challenging mobs, and, "hmm, let's see if it's possible to climb there. Oops, it's not" adventures.I think the game has lots of risk... for the willing.

pera · 03-01-2006, 10:16 PM

I'm 66 almost 67 now, I dont think i've died less than 10 times per level, why?, becuase my guild groups have been exploring quite a bit and it has been very rewarding. We have found out limits and risk of pushing those limits quite a few times over.I'm realy happy with the state of death in eq2. Thre was no more "risk" involved before just a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to get shards back, and expecialy with KoS with all the islands that would of just been silly.

Message Edited by perano on 03-01-200612:16 PM

Stryyfe · 03-01-2006, 10:35 PM

Phank wrote:
The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

The game has risk. Go try it out on a higher level if you aren't challenged, there is plenty you haven't done.

The part where you really don't get it is, Ideally, the shard concept was great. The problem is, if you grab pickup groups, people are completley out of control and avoid the use of strategy at all times, it was impossible to avoid some [Removed for Content] in your group greedy for exp training the group several times and gathering debt. Shard recovery and group debt is a complete waste of subscribers time... it was reflected by the drop in subscribers, there is no way it can be denied.

One of their main goals was to reduce the amount of time wasted on certain aspects of the game, to live up to their soloability and casual game concept for the common player.

I do however, like your idea on flagging group debt on or off, to provide a bonus, as you said, it was implemented badly at first.

The shard recovery however, is a complete waste of my time and they did the absolute right thing on taking it out. It does not make the game more challenging, because you obviously crawled down a dungeon to the point of your death once... so the CHALLENGE part of it has already been accomplished... they were adding annoyance by requiring you to go down there again and get your shard... or across the zone.. or wherever (since you could click on doors in some cases to recover shard)

You need to let this subject go already, Debt and Shard aspects are satisfying an overwhelming majority of players, trust me, even as a fellow player, that is what you want, it makes it easier for us to play and enjoy the content.

Vikk1 · 03-01-2006, 10:38 PM

skidmark wrote:PvP, it is exciting

Agreed. If you want more risk, try a PvP server.

pera · 03-01-2006, 10:41 PM

Aye pvp is really cool the way they did it.

Jai1 · 03-01-2006, 11:21 PM

I think the game has risks. Try harvesting T7. Take on a herioc mob near your level. Fight an orange named with a group. Raid hard encounters. Even joining a pick up group has risks. It's for that reason that group debt was a bad idea. Even dying has risks if you want to keep your camp in a crouded zone for instance. The game has risks but I'll agree that failure doesn't result in harse penalties. I kinda like that aspect.

Kasm · 03-01-2006, 11:46 PM

We playing the same game? Cause since KoS launch I have died more making one level than I have in the last 10. Just my two cents I think the game is hard enough now as it is. Want some risk go running through some of the new KoS zones and see how far you can make it without taking a dirt nap.

kenm · 03-02-2006, 12:47 AM

Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...

I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?

Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM

Stryyfe · 03-02-2006, 01:44 AM

kenman wrote:
Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. This doesn't mean it's a design flaw, it means players have a way around it, you dont have to use it, I don't use it personally, therefore... = risk. You have control over the challenge and risk you face.

And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...God forbid players that accrue debt and aren't more than a casual gamer get some of that removed while their accruing vitality.... If you want more debt, go raid... We raided Court of Al'ka last night and I died 9 times for about 5-6% debt, and got no exp in the mean time. Again, go find yourself a challenge and stop complaining, when you obviously haven't challenged yourself yet..... you must be yelling at yourself.

I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? This game is not for you, you require a seperate play-style and game requirements. You also must have much more play time that alot of players... you need to honestly think of the amount of married people with kid's and jobs.. where their significant others or children do not play EQ with them. Can you imagine someone getting home at 6pm, taking care of their kid, logging on for 2 hours to accomplish something, and they spend 1.5 hours getting their stuff back, and their next 2 hours the next night erasing their debt. Stop being so selfish.

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time. You are "some" of the people and you aren't pleased. Make it harder for yourself or move on to something that fits your needs/wants. If the game is not fun to you, and you find fun in "more" of a challenge, then why don't you go have more fun elsewhere?
Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM

SirHobbs · 03-02-2006, 01:46 AM

EternallyConfuzzled wrote:
>The game needs risk. Bottom line.
This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.

This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2.

Message Edited by SirHobbs on 03-01-200612:48 PM

Terabethia · 03-02-2006, 02:47 AM

kenman wrote:
Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...
I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?

The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp.

Giral · 03-02-2006, 03:24 AM

armor Repair costs are AFTER the fact , i don't even think about Armour repair costs till i get to a mender, <---- that doesn't equal a death penelty ,

Shard's Recovery, Reduced Stat's for Each shard missing, Armour repair cost's, AND Group Dept <<<-- was a great system worked fine IMO and groups worked better together becuase of it , Now you have Agro [Removed for Content] all over the place , people dieng without a care in the world ,etc,,,, the game is Less becuase the people care less death is a dream in eq2

Message Edited by Giralus on 03-01-200602:28 PM

Krooner · 03-02-2006, 03:50 AM

To those who say.. Theres no risk I say get out of you closet and go somewhere where everything is RED.

As far as penalties go...

Yes debt is easy to get rid of.

Yes Armor costs are easy to avoid.

Death penalties are there for one thing. To slow you down not stop you.

Too many people would rebel and the game would grind to a halt if you made deaths a 10% more debt or more.

You want to make people pause and think.. should I really do that. Lets first try upping the effects of revival. Not RES sickness just revival sickness. Make it to where it lasts for a minimum of 5 minutes, Reduces stats by 25%. If you die again when you have revival sickness then the time and effects are added. Is this gonna solve the problem.... Not entierly.

Is it a start... IMO YES

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 03-01-200602:52 PM

sharz · 03-02-2006, 04:31 AM

lol should have posted this when they were talking about it dont care any more

Flor · 03-02-2006, 05:20 AM

You are beating dead horse here. Lot's of people squealed like stuck pigs when first the group penalty was eliminated. And then again when shards were eliminated. To me, shards meant really no harder of a challenge. Just a timesink that impacted on my enjoyment of the game. I'm glad they are gone and I hope that SOE never brings this back. There is plenty of challenge in the game without having silly shard runs IMHO. As others have said, there are plenty of ways to challenge yourself.

I've been reading with interest the Vanguard forums (just out of curiousity and no desire to leave EQ2). The same debate seems to be doing on over there with many of the old EQ1 players supporting a tough, tough death penalty. It will be interesting to see how death penalities are implemented in this new game. And if they are really tough, whether people will really like it in the long run. I see nothing fun about dying deep in a dungeon and then spending hours and hours backtracking to recover your shard. Been there, done it. And I didn't like it. To me, fun is exploring new places with your group, trying not to die, and to reach the end successfully. That to me is good fun.

Remember that much of the MMORPG market has aged from the early gaming glory days. I loved the days of carefree gaming---- pre-kids. A whole weekend or latenight gaming dedicated to my original MMORPG. Now, how are wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends going to tolerate that plaintive plea of, "Honey, just give me 2 more hours to get my corpse. Yes, yes, I know the garbage needs to be taken out and the bills paid. But honey, my group needs me bad. Please? Hugs, kisses, smochie poo? I'll give you a back massage when I come up to bed? Please?"................:smileywink:

Persi · 03-02-2006, 05:37 AM

Mending costs me 18 gold. So when I do something that might kill me I'm taking a risk

kenm · 03-02-2006, 06:01 AM

Terabethia wrote:
The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp.

53 Berserker, full cobalt. I don't think my repair costs have ever gone to more than half a plat and since I rarely die it's hardly an issue at all. I have over 3 plat at the moment on me with absolutely nothing to look forward to buy except food and drink, maybe a 48% mount to upgrade from my carpet when my guild hits level 30 in ten years. Other than that I'd really kill for something useful to blow my money on without purposely dying about 60 times or playing the lotto to win an even larger amount of pointless plat.

Maroger · 03-02-2006, 06:08 AM

SirHobbs wrote:
EternallyConfuzzled wrote:
>The game needs risk. Bottom line.
This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling.
This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2.
Message Edited by SirHobbs on 03-01-200612:48 PM

Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.

Amytheyst · 03-02-2006, 07:41 AM

kenman wrote:
Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...
I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying?
Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM

Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want.

retro_guy · 03-02-2006, 08:14 AM

You're all weenies.I have a revolver with one bullet by my PC, and for every in-game death I spin the chamber and test my luck.It's easy to add risk to the game, you just have to be creative.

kenm · 03-02-2006, 11:17 AM

Amytheyst wrote:
Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want.

Sorry, but there's no thrill if I have to actually force myself to do that. The game should have the risk, I shouldn't have to add it myself.

Death should sting, it makes not dying an actual accomplishment. What's the accomplishment when any idiot can play horribly and zerg mobs and be exactly the same as someone playing well and not dying? The lack of a death penalty is the exact reason WoW is filled with level 60 idiots that have no idea how to play their class properly, can you honestly say that's a good thing?

I just pity you if you can't see how nice it feels to know how much it'd suck to die and then succeed at your goal without dying. I swear you'd have to play every game with godmode on to not once experience that feeling.

Oh well, can't wait for Vanguard to come out.

Zerebro · 03-02-2006, 01:11 PM

Phank wrote:
The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

I was having the same idea at first, but now totally used to it and now have the same feelings about dying. Even while there's only a small debt and 10% more damage I often am far into an area and the group has to rerun to get there again. Still same risk feeling for me.PS: It has some advantages when you want to pick up people at the beginning of an area when you can't invis/evac back, just die and run to the entrance SMILEY

But I hardly use it for transferring me.

AbsentmindedMage · 03-02-2006, 02:54 PM

Phank wrote:
The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

The game has risks. It is called xp debt and lag. Lag is a major risk that we take everytime we play. For example, I am lvl 64. I was killing a lvl 55 heroic in Pillar of Flames. I unfortunately encountered lag. Result the fight was over in a matter of what appeared to be seconds. And I was dead.

03-01-2006, 09:13 PM	#2
Ildarus Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 221	bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy: Message Edited by Ildarus on 03-01-200608:13 AM __________________ Lord Sarron-Level 80 Swashbuckler Serpaw-Level 74 Berserker Simbarth-Level 22 Shadowknight/76 Alchemist

03-01-2006, 09:40 PM	#3
Giral General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 894	to put a slightly diffrent twist on your idea Phank , they could implement certain instances with Shared debt and Up the exp rate slightly and also Increase the Debt the group get's __________________ who's more of a Fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool. . . Account Terminated as of 12-27-08, RMT=Evil

03-01-2006, 09:44 PM	#4
sunmagic Lord Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 73	Ildarus wrote: bleh!! So what you are saying is, "oh it looks like our group is going to suck, better turn off xp debt". LOL-hmm, how many people would leave it off all the time. If given a choice and the end result is the same the majority will take the easy route. That is life :smileyhappy: Message Edited by Ildarus on 03-01-200608:13 AM I'm not sure about that. If I were in a group and worked with everyone before I'd want that say "4%" XP. Why not?I'm doing groups just for XP. If it's gets me leveled faster that's great! But I can see the downside to this. But thenyou can always leave the group if it sucked.

03-01-2006, 09:50 PM	#5
EternallyConfuzzled Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 78	>The game needs risk. Bottom line. This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling. __________________ [This space for rent - 1p per day, non-refundable]

03-01-2006, 10:07 PM	#8
EtoilePirate Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,258	Risk is entirely where you choose to find it. It took me forever to ding 61 because I had debt for nearly all of level 60. Was it because of my groups? No, not at all. I was consistently grouped with some really teriffic people who know what they're doing, and as a result only had a half-dozen group wipes in all that time. It was because I chose exploration, and challenging mobs, and, "hmm, let's see if it's possible to climb there. Oops, it's not" adventures.I think the game has lots of risk... for the willing. __________________ Kella The Mighty Pirate, Assassin & Tailor Nimari, Fury-at-Large Test Server

03-01-2006, 08:20 PM	#1
Phank Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 275	The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

03-01-2006, 09:53 PM	#6
Terabethia Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 256	I am still curious about how people equated spirit shards to any sort of risk. When you die now, you still take a 10% hit to your gear, and you get about 3x the amount of debt you used to get. A shard didn't really do anything for you. If you simply logged out, it would be returned in 3 days. You could play without it, and just loose a small % of your stats. Or, you can do what 80% of the players did and petition that it was unrecoverable and have a GM get it. The latter is the exact reason that they removed the shards. They were sick of their GM's spending half their day recovering shards. So if you want to blame anyone, blame the players, not SoE. Shards do not equal risk. They never did. If you are the type of player that will try something that you know you probably can't do, you are going to do that with or without the possible loss of a shard. It's not like they were hard to go back and get. And most of the time, you simply get a rez and a shard never appeared. There is plenty of risk in this game, including penalties of death. Please let the shard argument go. If you want a real, true risk, go play EQ1. When you die... you actually leave your whole corpse! And if you don't go get it, it just rots with everything you own on it. That is risk. A glowing shard on the ground is not.

03-01-2006, 09:54 PM	#7
skidmark Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 486	PvP, it is exciting

03-01-2006, 10:16 PM	#9
pera Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 433	I'm 66 almost 67 now, I dont think i've died less than 10 times per level, why?, becuase my guild groups have been exploring quite a bit and it has been very rewarding. We have found out limits and risk of pushing those limits quite a few times over.I'm realy happy with the state of death in eq2. Thre was no more "risk" involved before just a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to get shards back, and expecialy with KoS with all the islands that would of just been silly. Message Edited by perano on 03-01-200612:16 PM __________________ - Igus 70 Dirge, Second Dawn Best Quote Ever: "BREAKING: New York subways smell funny"

03-01-2006, 10:35 PM	#10
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Phank wrote: The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt. The game has risk. Go try it out on a higher level if you aren't challenged, there is plenty you haven't done. The part where you really don't get it is, Ideally, the shard concept was great. The problem is, if you grab pickup groups, people are completley out of control and avoid the use of strategy at all times, it was impossible to avoid some [Removed for Content] in your group greedy for exp training the group several times and gathering debt. Shard recovery and group debt is a complete waste of subscribers time... it was reflected by the drop in subscribers, there is no way it can be denied. One of their main goals was to reduce the amount of time wasted on certain aspects of the game, to live up to their soloability and casual game concept for the common player. I do however, like your idea on flagging group debt on or off, to provide a bonus, as you said, it was implemented badly at first. The shard recovery however, is a complete waste of my time and they did the absolute right thing on taking it out. It does not make the game more challenging, because you obviously crawled down a dungeon to the point of your death once... so the CHALLENGE part of it has already been accomplished... they were adding annoyance by requiring you to go down there again and get your shard... or across the zone.. or wherever (since you could click on doors in some cases to recover shard) You need to let this subject go already, Debt and Shard aspects are satisfying an overwhelming majority of players, trust me, even as a fellow player, that is what you want, it makes it easier for us to play and enjoy the content.

03-01-2006, 10:38 PM	#11
Vikk1 Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 10	skidmark wrote:PvP, it is exciting Agreed. If you want more risk, try a PvP server.

03-01-2006, 10:41 PM	#12
pera Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 433	Aye pvp is really cool the way they did it. __________________ - Igus 70 Dirge, Second Dawn Best Quote Ever: "BREAKING: New York subways smell funny"

03-01-2006, 11:21 PM	#13
Jai1 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 618	I think the game has risks. Try harvesting T7. Take on a herioc mob near your level. Fight an orange named with a group. Raid hard encounters. Even joining a pick up group has risks. It's for that reason that group debt was a bad idea. Even dying has risks if you want to keep your camp in a crouded zone for instance. The game has risks but I'll agree that failure doesn't result in harse penalties. I kinda like that aspect.

03-01-2006, 11:46 PM	#14
Kasm Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 49	We playing the same game? Cause since KoS launch I have died more making one level than I have in the last 10. Just my two cents I think the game is hard enough now as it is. Want some risk go running through some of the new KoS zones and see how far you can make it without taking a dirt nap. __________________ Kademus Stormbow Sins of Chaos Guk 62 Ranger Heroes never die!!! I Kademus Stormbow can never be conquered!!!

03-02-2006, 12:47 AM	#15
kenm General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 419	Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone... I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM __________________ ---

03-02-2006, 01:44 AM	#16
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	kenman wrote: Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. This doesn't mean it's a design flaw, it means players have a way around it, you dont have to use it, I don't use it personally, therefore... = risk. You have control over the challenge and risk you face. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone...God forbid players that accrue debt and aren't more than a casual gamer get some of that removed while their accruing vitality.... If you want more debt, go raid... We raided Court of Al'ka last night and I died 9 times for about 5-6% debt, and got no exp in the mean time. Again, go find yourself a challenge and stop complaining, when you obviously haven't challenged yourself yet..... you must be yelling at yourself. I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? This game is not for you, you require a seperate play-style and game requirements. You also must have much more play time that alot of players... you need to honestly think of the amount of married people with kid's and jobs.. where their significant others or children do not play EQ with them. Can you imagine someone getting home at 6pm, taking care of their kid, logging on for 2 hours to accomplish something, and they spend 1.5 hours getting their stuff back, and their next 2 hours the next night erasing their debt. Stop being so selfish. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time. You are "some" of the people and you aren't pleased. Make it harder for yourself or move on to something that fits your needs/wants. If the game is not fun to you, and you find fun in "more" of a challenge, then why don't you go have more fun elsewhere? Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM

03-02-2006, 01:46 AM	#17
SirHobbs Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	EternallyConfuzzled wrote: >The game needs risk. Bottom line. This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling. This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2. Message Edited by SirHobbs on 03-01-200612:48 PM

03-02-2006, 02:47 AM	#18
Terabethia Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 256	kenman wrote: Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone... I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp.

03-02-2006, 03:24 AM	#19
Giral General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 894	armor Repair costs are AFTER the fact , i don't even think about Armour repair costs till i get to a mender, <---- that doesn't equal a death penelty , Shard's Recovery, Reduced Stat's for Each shard missing, Armour repair cost's, AND Group Dept <<<-- was a great system worked fine IMO and groups worked better together becuase of it , Now you have Agro [Removed for Content] all over the place , people dieng without a care in the world ,etc,,,, the game is Less becuase the people care less death is a dream in eq2 Message Edited by Giralus on 03-01-200602:28 PM __________________ who's more of a Fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool. . . Account Terminated as of 12-27-08, RMT=Evil

03-02-2006, 03:50 AM	#20
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	To those who say.. Theres no risk I say get out of you closet and go somewhere where everything is RED. As far as penalties go... Yes debt is easy to get rid of. Yes Armor costs are easy to avoid. Death penalties are there for one thing. To slow you down not stop you. Too many people would rebel and the game would grind to a halt if you made deaths a 10% more debt or more. You want to make people pause and think.. should I really do that. Lets first try upping the effects of revival. Not RES sickness just revival sickness. Make it to where it lasts for a minimum of 5 minutes, Reduces stats by 25%. If you die again when you have revival sickness then the time and effects are added. Is this gonna solve the problem.... Not entierly. Is it a start... IMO YES Message Edited by Warbird1 on 03-01-200602:52 PM

03-02-2006, 04:31 AM	#21
sharz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	lol should have posted this when they were talking about it dont care any more __________________ -Sharzor was here

03-02-2006, 05:20 AM	#22
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	You are beating dead horse here. Lot's of people squealed like stuck pigs when first the group penalty was eliminated. And then again when shards were eliminated. To me, shards meant really no harder of a challenge. Just a timesink that impacted on my enjoyment of the game. I'm glad they are gone and I hope that SOE never brings this back. There is plenty of challenge in the game without having silly shard runs IMHO. As others have said, there are plenty of ways to challenge yourself. I've been reading with interest the Vanguard forums (just out of curiousity and no desire to leave EQ2). The same debate seems to be doing on over there with many of the old EQ1 players supporting a tough, tough death penalty. It will be interesting to see how death penalities are implemented in this new game. And if they are really tough, whether people will really like it in the long run. I see nothing fun about dying deep in a dungeon and then spending hours and hours backtracking to recover your shard. Been there, done it. And I didn't like it. To me, fun is exploring new places with your group, trying not to die, and to reach the end successfully. That to me is good fun. Remember that much of the MMORPG market has aged from the early gaming glory days. I loved the days of carefree gaming---- pre-kids. A whole weekend or latenight gaming dedicated to my original MMORPG. Now, how are wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends going to tolerate that plaintive plea of, "Honey, just give me 2 more hours to get my corpse. Yes, yes, I know the garbage needs to be taken out and the bills paid. But honey, my group needs me bad. Please? Hugs, kisses, smochie poo? I'll give you a back massage when I come up to bed? Please?"................:smileywink:

03-02-2006, 05:37 AM	#23
Persi General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 66	Mending costs me 18 gold. So when I do something that might kill me I'm taking a risk

03-02-2006, 06:01 AM	#24
kenm General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 419	Terabethia wrote: The repair costs are practically nothing, huh? Okay, I now need to know what level you are, what class you are, and what type of gear you wear. I will start. I am level 63 templar (plate wearer) with several peices of fabled gear. Everytime I die, it costs me around 10gp. So 10 death = approx.1 pp to me. That is quite a lot if you ask me, concidering that you can easily rack that up in a night of raiding. As far as the unequip macro, that only works if you yell the mob. And I will tell you one thing, I would dare you to do that while in my group, because you would be booted faster than you can say "oops". Most of the time, death is not a full group wipe, but if you yell the mob, you are costing your group time and xp. 53 Berserker, full cobalt. I don't think my repair costs have ever gone to more than half a plat and since I rarely die it's hardly an issue at all. I have over 3 plat at the moment on me with absolutely nothing to look forward to buy except food and drink, maybe a 48% mount to upgrade from my carpet when my guild hits level 30 in ten years. Other than that I'd really kill for something useful to blow my money on without purposely dying about 60 times or playing the lotto to win an even larger amount of pointless plat. __________________ ---

03-02-2006, 06:08 AM	#25
Maroger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,313	SirHobbs wrote: EternallyConfuzzled wrote: >The game needs risk. Bottom line. This has been discussed before. Repeatedly. Exhaustively. Stop trolling. This is jsut a here, here. Please put risk into the game!!!!!!!!!!! No risk lessens the reality of the game. Now, I agree with others, the shard really doesnt present risk. I like EQ1's level of risk, but EQ2. Message Edited by SirHobbs on 03-01-200612:48 PM Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.

03-02-2006, 07:41 AM	#26
Amytheyst Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 96	kenman wrote: Kasman, the fact is that dying is absolutely no risk. Besides virtually everyone in the game having an unequip macro, the repair costs are practically nothing. And the exp debt? It takes a minute or two to get back that massive ONE PRECENT debt, and if you're far too lazy to work that hard to get it back you can just log off for the night and it'll be gone... I say raise the debt to 10-15% per death and add in full blown CRs, where's the thrill if there's no risk in dying? Message Edited by kenman on 03-01-200611:48 AM Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want. __________________

03-02-2006, 08:14 AM	#27
retro_guy Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 935	You're all weenies.I have a revolver with one bullet by my PC, and for every in-game death I spin the chamber and test my luck.It's easy to add risk to the game, you just have to be creative. __________________

03-02-2006, 11:17 AM	#28
kenm General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 419	Amytheyst wrote: Tell you what hardcore, if YOU want it that way, every time YOU die, pick a slot in your inventory and destroy it. Also, turn off your adventure XP for 10 fights. There, you are happy, and the rest of us are.Man- that didnt even take one ounce of precious dev time, and you get what you want. Sorry, but there's no thrill if I have to actually force myself to do that. The game should have the risk, I shouldn't have to add it myself. Death should sting, it makes not dying an actual accomplishment. What's the accomplishment when any idiot can play horribly and zerg mobs and be exactly the same as someone playing well and not dying? The lack of a death penalty is the exact reason WoW is filled with level 60 idiots that have no idea how to play their class properly, can you honestly say that's a good thing? I just pity you if you can't see how nice it feels to know how much it'd suck to die and then succeed at your goal without dying. I swear you'd have to play every game with godmode on to not once experience that feeling. Oh well, can't wait for Vanguard to come out. __________________ ---

03-02-2006, 01:11 PM	#29
Zerebro Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 276	Phank wrote: The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt. I was having the same idea at first, but now totally used to it and now have the same feelings about dying. Even while there's only a small debt and 10% more damage I often am far into an area and the group has to rerun to get there again. Still same risk feeling for me.PS: It has some advantages when you want to pick up people at the beginning of an area when you can't invis/evac back, just die and run to the entrance But I hardly use it for transferring me. __________________ You! Get out of the gene pool! NOW!

03-02-2006, 02:54 PM	#30
AbsentmindedMage Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 362	Phank wrote: The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt. The game has risks. It is called xp debt and lag. Lag is a major risk that we take everytime we play. For example, I am lvl 64. I was killing a lvl 55 heroic in Pillar of Flames. I unfortunately encountered lag. Result the fight was over in a matter of what appeared to be seconds. And I was dead.