New Proc Information

[Ranja]

Beta Update Notes : February 14, 2006 2/14/2005 8:15 pm*** Combat ***- Procs will only occur on the first successful attack of a single combat art, not each attack.

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Can someone confirm this? If this is true Rangers are done as a class.

 

Elbryan60 Ranger

[Tideri]

There is a God!

[NG23985_01]

This change will help, but it ultimately wont matter - Rangers will still be significantly overpowered as a DPS class.

[Tideri]

I have to disagree, they do the DPS that they do, because of procs.

[Jai1]

Making imbued rings worthless?

[MadBarman]

This change is mainly to do with abilities that hit multiple times being used in conjunction with limited proc skills.Example:Thundering fists give 5 procs of magic damage. Rapid swings hits for 5 hits. So the procs go off on every swing.However If 2 of the procs were used up on autoattacks before Rapid swings there should only be 3 procs left. The problem at the moment is the skill will cause procs on all multiple attacks that land even if you should run out of procs halfway thru.Hope that makes sense.

Message Edited by MadBarman on 02-15-200607:00 AM

[Cael]

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NG23985_01 wrote:

This change will help, but it ultimately wont matter - Rangers will still be significantly overpowered as a DPS class.

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Youre VERY wrong, this is a death blow to Ranger DPS. Kind of proves how little people know about classes they ridicule

[Ranja]

This change is mainly to do with abilities that hit multiple times being used in conjunction with limited proc skills.Example:Thundering fists give 5 procs of magic damage. Rapid swings hits for 5 hits. So the procs go off on every swing.However If 2 of the procs were used up on autoattacks before Rapid swings there should only be 3 procs left. The problem at the moment is the skill will cause procs on all multiple attacks that land even if you should run out of procs halfway thru.Hope that makes sense.

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No it does not make sense. Poison is not a limited proc ability. If I shoot triple shot, I have three arrows that land. Each arrow is covered in poison. Why can't the poison proc three times. You example above makes sense in regards to Zerkers buit makes no sense in regards to poison procs.

Elbryan60 Ranger

 

p.s. and to the stupid assassin that said "there is a God!" This affects you too or are you that excited to be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why don't you want your damage abilities raised rather than rejoicing in the nerfiing of another class. This attitude disgusts me in MMOs and it the single reason it is driving me away. We team as groups you want each class to be able to do their job the best. I want assassins doing as much damage as us, I want sorcerors doing that as well. Pre CU-13 when we were swinging nail files and shooting stalks of celery, we never said nerf anyone . We simply wanted to be brought up with the rest of the DPS classes. Is it because the Ranger community is more mature than the rest maybe? But enough with rejoicing in the nerfage of other clasess. Becuase soon or later it is going to be your class. 

[MadBarman]

Just to add, poison is a limited proc effect. They have 200 procs available. If you have 2 procs left and use triple shot you will currently get an extra proc free.And to make my position clear, I don't like the change. I would much prefer the problem is actually fixed and not just worked around.

[Kala Asuras]

I have not posted much but do know my class well.  Offensive procs are the lifeblood of a ranger DPS.  This is why you see so many of us, even with the expansion into T7, trying to get T5 fabled pieces that have such procs.  Grey armour? that is fine if it can add a proc like the Cryptic Coat.  Honestly if the devs feel like procs are not supposed to function like they were in the past that is fine, but all the hassle they went through to balance classes took place with the previous system in place.  If they are going to make a sweeping change like this without realizing the result, namely that Rangers, with nothing to offer groups or raids other than DPS, go from Tier 1 DPS to essentialy the bottom of the heap, this will ruin the game for many of us.  I have never been one of the 'sky is falling all i can do is quit' people but these changes are not acceptable without other changed to balance the impact. Change procs, fine.  I wouldn't mind not paying for my DPS as i have had to in the past.  But look at the result, CAs would need to be increased in damage 2 to 3 fold.Stream of Arrows is not worthless as it does not proc.  30 seconds of no procs.  I noticed cheapshot not working as well, this was on solo mobs 3 levels below me.  The patch notes said that procs will only happen on the first attack of a CA. It seems to be worse than what they stated in the update notes.  They may be counting the CA for their cast length instead of the delay on the bow.  I logged in last night after the patch but before they put up the notes and noticed something wrong right away.  I messed around and came up with these numbers, not enough to make a conclusion but it is a cause for worry.Culling the Weak23 shots4 poison procs5 quick shot procs2 gleaming strikesPrecise Shot10 shots2 poison procs4 quick shot procs0 gleamig strikesTripple Arrow26 shots1 poison proc!!2 quick shot procs1 gleaming strikesNow compair those to the regular ranged auto attack.Auto Attack39 shots27 poison procs32 quick shot procs7 gleaming strikes

Message Edited by Kala Asuras on 02-15-200609:26 AM

[Kizee]

How does this effect autoattack?

 

Does it mean that procs only go off when you use CA's and will never fire on autoattack damage?

[MadBarman]

Procs will still work on autoattacks as they do now. This only effects applied procs and combat arts that hit multiple times

[Smi]

Wow.  Seriously, this is some brilliant game design.For the record, I am now triple whammied as a 60 alchemist (poison is about to be practically useless), a 60 jeweler (imbued rings are about to be completely useless), and most especially as a 60 ranger.First, all sense of accomplishment and fun has been sucked out of the class.  I have a valian bow.  Thus, I'm completely done with all raiding as the game currently stands.  Pre LU19, I scoured the item database looking for items with interesting or unique procs, giving my character a sense of item progression and fun.  No more of that!  Fun?  We can't have that.Also, they removed pretty much the most significant soloing tool at our disposable in Stream of Arrows.  Soloing in a tight place?  Who do you think you are, every other DPS class in the game?Now, if this change goes live, we'll have all of the drawbacks (consumables, range required to do anything, no utility, single slot item progression) and not even be a match for summoners in DPS. How is it, with the hardest encounters in the game only being beatable by like 1 or 2 guilds and only as recently as this month can you suddenly decide to go on a completely devestating nerfing spree?Pre LU-19, I was very much looking to KoS.  Now I'm not even sure I'll be continuing my subscription, much less sending you guys the extra fixed-cost of the expansion.  Great job on planning out your changes!  Also thanks so much for wasting my time spending months hunting for rare proc'ing items, I really appreciate it.  Oh and also thanks for having me go out and waste money making a 2nd imbued strength ring.   Great game design guys, just awesome.

[Ezariel]

Stop messing with proc rates!  The only class that is overpowered with procs at the moment is rangers.  And yes rangers do need to be brought down a few notches.  Just see all the parses where rangers are parsing 1200+ dps constantly in raids, while other dps classes are lucky to get 800.  I'm sorry if it offends rangers, but I've played one and I've seen how it really is and I am honest and say that rangers are so far above every other class at the moment that its just not even funny. 

The problem with changing proc rates across the board is that other classes rely on procs as well.  By bringing rangers down a notch you bring them down a notch as well and absolutely nothing changes in the end.  Sure rangers are lower, but as a result so is everyone else. 

[Dagator]

Agree with above poster Smirk, as I am in nearly the same boat.

 

You know what is funny though, I have never heard anyone in a raid give me crap about putting out too much dps.  You know, like, hey ranger, we cannot have you because you do too much dps.  But on the forums thats usually all I see, is that how overpowered rangers are, and when we get a bad beat like this one that appears to be coming, people are happy.  So for those griefers out there, the next time you are in a raid after these changes occur, with a ranger or two, and wipe, you can be thankful they nerfed our dps, (providing we will even get into raids anymore)...

Message Edited by Dagator on 02-15-200608:04 PM

[Pins]

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MadBarman wrote:

This change is mainly to do with abilities that hit multiple times being used in conjunction with limited proc skills.Example:Thundering fists give 5 procs of magic damage. Rapid swings hits for 5 hits. So the procs go off on every swing.However If 2 of the procs were used up on autoattacks before Rapid swings there should only be 3 procs left. The problem at the moment is the skill will cause procs on all multiple attacks that land even if you should run out of procs halfway thru.Hope that makes sense.

Message Edited by MadBarman on 02-15-200607:00 AM

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Actually, they fixed this in a previous beta-patch, since procs are "triggered spell effects.""- Triggered spell effects will now only trigger as many times as they are supposed to, even if the trigger action happens multiple times at once."So now, they're making it so you don't get the extra procs of it, for example, Prismatic Discord line for Illusionists procs up to 3 times on a melee swing on somebody in the group. If you toss it on a Bruiser who uses their Crushing Fury line(8 hits), and all 8 hits connect, well you get 8 procs on the live server. After the above patch got applied it was limited to 3 procs, now it's down to 1 proc off of Crushing Fury.But anyway, it's obvious this patch is about making scouts do lower damage to get them within range of mages, though what's next, when do the summoners get hit by that nerf stick?

[Graton]

this is very clearly another attempt to bring down ranger dps without devs coming out and saying 'we want to bring down ranger dps'.  it's clear that they probably never realized the inevitable outcome of attaching the proc rate of ca's to the delay of the weapon being used so why don't they investigate that mechanic rather than just throwing garbage at the wall and seeing what sticks. they have in the process of trying to deal with this nerfed fabled proc weapons and now greatly diminished the effectiveness of multi-hit ca's.  as an assassin i have one multi hit range attack which i use specifically because it gives me a great chance to get a proc in. it's dmg is extremely subpar compared to it's casting time and power. there will be literally no point in casting it with this change. i can't imagine rangers and assassins are the only classes to have these multi-hit attacks so this is going to hurt everybody.the next step will probably be to make 1/2 of raid mobs poison immune. i don't understand why they don't just take proc mechanics head on the way they did the combat revamp in lu 16.

[Graton]

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bentgate wrote:

p.s. and to the stupid assassin that said "there is a God!" This affects you too or are you that excited to be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why don't you want your damage abilities raised rather than rejoicing in the nerfiing of another class. This attitude disgusts me in MMOs and it the single reason it is driving me away. We team as groups you want each class to be able to do their job the best. I want assassins doing as much damage as us, I want sorcerors doing that as well. Pre CU-13 when we were swinging nail files and shooting stalks of celery, we never said nerf anyone . We simply wanted to be brought up with the rest of the DPS classes. Is it because the Ranger community is more mature than the rest maybe? But enough with rejoicing in the nerfage of other clasess. Becuase soon or later it is going to be your class. 

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so the ranger community is more mature than the assassin community based of the comments of one lvl 42 trouble maker in a single post? that guy does not represent the community and if you go to the assassin class board you will not see widespread calls to nerf rangers. there will always be insitgators in every class and you know as well as i do that while most rangers didn't want others nerfed in the past , there was at least one dope that made a "nerf them" comment in a post somewhere.while i agree with you that it would be nice to see assassins brought in line with rangers and then warlocks and wizards brought up as well, you have to see that this would make raid encounters awfully trivial. raid dps even on orange mobs is so high they don't last long enough to recycle 60 second refresh ca's. if there were now 4 classes doing that dps rather than one it would only be more ridiculous. that's why i think it's unlikely we'll see anyone scaled up. i think we're all more likely to be nerfed than anything.

[NG23985_01]

Don't give me that "blah blah 99% of our dmg comes from poisons" garbage argument. Ive parsed a ranger in my guild without poison AT ALL. He still did more than double the damage of my Warlock.

 

I dont remember the hard numbers from the fights, but it was somewhere in the following area...

 

Ranger, No Poison at all: 65,000 damageMe (Warlock): 25,000 damage

 

Ranger, T6 rare poison: 85,000 damage

Me (Warlock): <20,000 damage

[Ranja]

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so the ranger community is more mature than the assassin community based of the comments of one lvl 42 trouble maker in a single post? that guy does not represent the community and if you go to the assassin class board you will not see widespread calls to nerf rangers. there will always be insitgators in every class and you know as well as i do that while most rangers didn't want others nerfed in the past , there was at least one dope that made a "nerf them" comment in a post somewhere.while i agree with you that it would be nice to see assassins brought in line with rangers and then warlocks and wizards brought up as well, you have to see that this would make raid encounters awfully trivial. raid dps even on orange mobs is so high they don't last long enough to recycle 60 second refresh ca's. if there were now 4 classes doing that dps rather than one it would only be more ridiculous. that's why i think it's unlikely we'll see anyone scaled up. i think we're all more likely to be nerfed than anything.

Graton60 Assassin / 60 JewelerAncient VengeanceNajena

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You are correct Graton. I did not mean to lump everyone into the same basket. I hate generalizations and I do agree that it is more likely that we are brought down becasue you are correct that if we all did RAnger DPS there would be no need for any other class. Mobs would be dead in 15 seconds. That post just really got me - and I notice he has not responded since then. Rangers have been villified since the CU and posts like that with no helpful insight or comments really [Removed for Content] me off.

I generally hate the nerf word and I wish it would go away. And, I hate it more when other classes call for the nerf of any other class. This is a team game and every class should want every other class to perfom as expected. As long as we stay T1 DPS I don't care what changes happen. As long as I can do my job and am wanted on raids, groups, and I can solo when need be - it is ok.

 

Elbryan60 Ranger

 

[Dojoc]

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NG23985_01 schrieb:

Don't give me that "blah blah 99% of our dmg comes from poisons" garbage argument. Ive parsed a ranger in my guild without poison AT ALL. He still did more than double the damage of my Warlock.

 

I dont remember the hard numbers from the fights, but it was somewhere in the following area...

 

Ranger, No Poison at all: 65,000 damageMe (Warlock): 25,000 damage

 

Ranger, T6 rare poison: 85,000 damage

Me (Warlock): <20,000 damage

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lol, you are really a bad warlock :smileyvery-happy: lol, 25k dmg vs a Ranger without poison, lolnoob

Nachricht bearbeitet von Dojocan am 02-15-200609:05 AM

[Cuz]

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Smirk wrote:

Wow.  Seriously, this is some brilliant game design.For the record, I am now triple whammied as a 60 alchemist (poison is about to be practically useless), a 60 jeweler (imbued rings are about to be completely useless), and most especially as a 60 ranger.

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I'm not going to comment on the ranger aspect, cuz well I don't know enoguh about it. The other two however I will debate. First off how are poisons going to be worthless? I'm just curious. Secondly, I think your jeweler will be better off in T7. It would appear that resist will be mostly coming from jewelry for T7. Also if you look the jewely seems (for the most part) to have 2 resists on them. So for raiders, or more hardcore players, they will probably stock up on multiple sets to maxmize the resists.

[Tideri]

Actually I haven't responded because I'm at work and don't have the opportunity to respond to every post as they come in.  I'd like to see a point where Rangers actually have to work for their DPS and this is one step, hopefully more to follow.  I would LOVE for you to be able to have the same DPS as you do now, if it required more than point and click.  Additionally, procs have needed a fix, so finally something is happening.

 

So, I'm a trouble maker because I have an opinion that goes against yours?  Well, if thats what makes me a trouble maker then get out the brand.  I am also aware that this change affects all classes, but the difference is that all of use might drop in DPS a bit, but it'll fix a mechanic that is obviously broken.  Oh, and just because I'm the only person here saying it, doesn't mean that alot of other classes don't think it.

 

I'm sure your retort will focus on my level or other silly nonsense, but my opinion is just that.  If you wanna whine some more though, I'll be more than happy to listen.

[Smi]

Because with the poison proc rate significantly reduced, poisons A.  become less important and B.  Last a lot longer which leads to C.  No demand for them for an alchemist, making my TRADEskill even more worthless.

[Cuz]

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Smirk wrote:Because with the poison proc rate significantly reduced, poisons A.  become less important and B.  Last a lot longer which leads to C.  No demand for them for an alchemist, making my TRADEskill even more worthless.

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Where was it said that proc rates have changed?

A - Poisons will do damage less often, not become less important. Any extra damage a DPS class can get is important, or so I thought.

B - It's true that they will last longer. However how much longer? My swashie only has 2 multiple attack skills. True he's low level, so they might get more. What I'm saying is that on a global scope it might only mean that your poisons last 10% (it's a fictional number) longer than usual if you include all poison users.

C - They're lowering the proc rates on skills not lobotomizing poison users. It's not because of this change that they'll suddenly become stupid and through away extra DPS.

Finally you're alchemist was never worthless so I don't understand where the "more worthless" comes from.

I do feel for you and your ranger. It seems like it might be a big setback. However your alchemist should be ok

[Ranja]

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Tiderius wrote:

Actually I haven't responded because I'm at work and don't have the opportunity to respond to every post as they come in.  I'd like to see a point where Rangers actually have to work for their DPS and this is one step, hopefully more to follow.  I would LOVE for you to be able to have the same DPS as you do now, if it required more than point and click.  Additionally, procs have needed a fix, so finally something is happening.

 

So, I'm a trouble maker because I have an opinion that goes against yours?  Well, if thats what makes me a trouble maker then get out the brand.  I am also aware that this change affects all classes, but the difference is that all of use might drop in DPS a bit, but it'll fix a mechanic that is obviously broken.  Oh, and just because I'm the only person here saying it, doesn't mean that alot of other classes don't think it.

 

I'm sure your retort will focus on my level or other silly nonsense, but my opinion is just that.  If you wanna whine some more though, I'll be more than happy to listen.

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ACtually I dont have a retort. This thread shows that you do have a brain. And am not so idiot that rejoices in the misery of others. I have no problems with what you stated - it was your childish "There is a God" post that was stupid. If this was your original post, I would have been fine with it. Everything you said makes complete sense and I agree except for the fact that we dont have to work for our DPS. We dance around just as much as you.

These threads, like yours above, show intelligent and thought out design. Unlike "There is a God" which simply shows you rejoice in others misery.  I commend you for your intelligent and thought out post that actually expresses an opinion. keep me coming :smileyvery-happy:

 

Elbryan60 Ranger

 

[Blackguard]

We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be. I suppose I should clarify my blunt statement a bit more. Rangers are currently in their own tier of damage versus single targets in group combat. Indeed, they are supposed to be in the top tier of damage along with the likes of Wizards, Warlocks, and Assassins, but as it stands now, they outshine each of those classes by too wide a margin. That is being corrected. If you want further clarification on the proc changes we've been making, especially the first one, read on. As you know, there are many weapons in game that proc extra damage when they land an attack in combat (for example, imbued crafted weapons). In order to ensure that no style of weapon was more likely to proc than any other, we base a weapon's chance to proc on its delay. In other words, a slower weapon has a higher chance to proc because it lands fewer attacks; a faster weapon has a lower chance to proc on each hit because it lands its attacks more often. This keeps dual-wield, one-handed, and two-handed weapons on par with each other in their chance to proc. Some buffs also provide a chance to proc extra damage on a successful attack. Because we even out the proc chance based on delay, such buffs work equally well regardless of weapon type. These buffs also have a chance to proc via combat arts. However, there is a bug on the live servers in that the proc chance for combat arts was also being calculated based on the delay of whatever weapon was equipped. Some players have been using this to their advantage by deliberately equipping slow weapons in order to give their fast-casting combat arts a better chance to proc. As of Live Update #20, combat arts will base their chance to trigger a proc on the casting time of the art itself. Weapon delay will no longer affect any combat art's chance to trigger a proc. Certain classes will feel the effects of this change more than others. Scouts (especially rangers) were more likely to benefit from this bug than other melee classes, which contributed to scout damage being higher overall than it should have been--especially in relation to mages. While no class likes to see a reduction in the damage it does, the alternative would be to not only increase the damage output of other classes to compensate, but also to proportionately increase the health pools of NPCs to account for this rise in player damage. The second option would involve a lot more changes and would be prone to introducing other imbalances into the game. While not doing anything about this bug would be preferable to some, we cannot ignore the progressively more significant effect it is having as the game evolves. Fixing this issue will help bring many of the classes back into their intended range of damage output as we discussed around the time of LU13 and the combat revamp. Keep in mind that if you play a melee class but don't rely on a slow weapon to generate extra procs, this fix should have little impact on your style of play. Edit: Added clarification

Message Edited by Blackguard on 02-15-2006 06:47 PM

[Tideri]

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bentgate wrote:

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Tiderius wrote:

Actually I haven't responded because I'm at work and don't have the opportunity to respond to every post as they come in.  I'd like to see a point where Rangers actually have to work for their DPS and this is one step, hopefully more to follow.  I would LOVE for you to be able to have the same DPS as you do now, if it required more than point and click.  Additionally, procs have needed a fix, so finally something is happening.

 

So, I'm a trouble maker because I have an opinion that goes against yours?  Well, if thats what makes me a trouble maker then get out the brand.  I am also aware that this change affects all classes, but the difference is that all of use might drop in DPS a bit, but it'll fix a mechanic that is obviously broken.  Oh, and just because I'm the only person here saying it, doesn't mean that alot of other classes don't think it.

 

I'm sure your retort will focus on my level or other silly nonsense, but my opinion is just that.  If you wanna whine some more though, I'll be more than happy to listen.

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ACtually I dont have a retort. This thread shows that you do have a brain. And am not so idiot that rejoices in the misery of others. I have no problems with what you stated - it was your childish "There is a God" post that was stupid. If this was your original post, I would have been fine with it. Everything you said makes complete sense and I agree except for the fact that we dont have to work for our DPS. We dance around just as much as you.

These threads, like yours above, show intelligent and thought out design. Unlike "There is a God" which simply shows you rejoice in others misery.  I commend you for your intelligent and thought out post that actually expresses an opinion. keep me coming :smileyvery-happy:

 

Elbryan60 Ranger

 

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Thank you for your response as well, perhaps I should not have been so sarcastic in my first post.  Unfortunately, I am a jerk and don't usually think about things like being nice.  :smileyhappy:  That being said, thanks again for responding maturely as well.

As for Blackguard's response.  By stating that Ranger's are not supposed to be the highest DPS class are you insinuating that all Tier I DPS classes should be exactly the same or that one specific class should be doing more than the Ranger, e.g. Wizard or Warlock?

[Smi]

" We'll continue to work with procs until we're comfortable with how they function. To those crying doom and gloom for the Ranger class: Rangers are currently the higest DPS in the game. They are not supposed to be."You know what?  I'm generally a very professional person, but I just have to actually say (even though it'll be edited).  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you."Crying" doom and gloom?  And then in the next sentence you go on to state unequivocably, yes, we are completely nerfing your class.  Well then gee, it's not exactly incorrect to call you on the doom and gloom then is it?A long time ago a developer specifically laid out the damage tiers.  Rangers and Wizards were at the top of the chart.  Gee, that would say that they ARE supposed to be tied for the highest DPS in the game, right?  After these changes, they won't even be remotely close.  And at the same time, they have required range for their arts (a huge tradeoff for the miniscule upgrade that leather/chain gives over cloth).  You've removed everything fun about the class by removing procs from items.  Hell, there's not a single [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] epic quest bow in the game, so every other class gets 2 level of prismatic items which have neat procs which they can use, none of that for the "overpowered" rangers who have to sit at range to do any damage.  You've removed ALL item progression, which is the BASIS for MUD/MMORPG play for us.  Are you an idiot?  Seriously?   How can you be so blind to how broken you have made this class?  

[Tideri]

As previously stated, I'm a jerk.  That being said, its probably not a good idea to insult one of the designers, especially since he is participating in the thread.  Devs are like groundhogs, except instead of shadows, they run away from mean people.