the WoW-ization of EQ2 is a very very very bad thing

greploco · 02-02-2006, 07:37 PM

wasn't exactly sure where to post this, but since it was about test and upcomming content, seemed like this is the spot

I've taken this server down time to read what people are posting about changes and upcomming changes. It really does seem that collectively EQ2 is undergoing a WoW-ization or dumbing down of sorts. As someone who has come from WoW I can tell you that's not really a good thing. Two examples of the simplifications I've observed (or wowifications) are the instant class picking and the absolute and total simplification of the current tradeskill system. I'd have to say I can understand why business minds and bean counters might leap on to these changes as good things. if we make the game simpler and easier we can appeal to a larger population of customers.

well, you are right about one thing, WoW is simple and it is popular. but the simplicity of WoW is not at the heart of what makes it popular. the environment is extremely alluring and very well made, it's a pleasing world to play in. more so than EQ2. it is simply a matter of polish. however, EQ2 wins out on the combat system and character models and expansiveness of the world and also you guessed it --- complexity. and that complexity makes for a depth of game which is a very good thing.

the simplicity of WoW is a good thing in terms of attracting people, but it comes at a huge huge cost. some new servers were recently started up. I joined in for the fun, let me tell you what happened. in less than a week the overseas sweatshop gold farmers were level 60, in less than two weeks many regular players were level 60, in less than three weeks to a month you had end game raids starting out. That's a full complement of 10 to 60 people of varying classes getting end game equipment --- and also having endgame crafting ability in about two to three weeks. the kicker is also this --- in my time on this server every single person I met had level 60s on another server. every single person. that's not one new customer. WoW is surviving by eating it's own tail.

servers are also destroyed very quickly by the numbers of sweatshop gold farmers and the huge numbers of people who are willing to pay for the gold. the economies are decimated by this. read about it here http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815 the server lifecycle in wow is really quite short. why do people keep playing? as I said, the world is quite alluring and people roll and re-roll and then re-roll again. on different servers and the same server. also, once you do hit level 60 it's a raid game, one after another after another after another after another -- it takes a long time to get all of your endgame equipment. after that they have added a significant amount of pvp instances and games. but even that gets old. very old. when they add a new server now I would say 90% of the people there are migrants from another server.

it's extremely stale.

as for depth? there is very little. it means very little to have a level 60 or an endgame tradeskiller. it means nothing. I've played EQ2 for a short time but I can see it means a bit more here, and certainly so for an endgame tradeskiller. these games offer the striving of a reward and the eventual attainment of that reward --- but the value of the reward is measured in the time, energy, and effort to gain that reward and the ability of the game environment to provide enjoyment as you work your way up to the reward.

After attaining tradeskill level 18 I can see that reaching 60 is really quite a thing. certainly there are other games with more distant rewards, like AO's level 220 + alien levels --- that is quite difficult unless you are one of two or so always in demand classes. but the pace of EQ2 seems really quite ... well cool. especially the class system that went from levels 1 to 20. I've never seen anything like it. it really ment something when I picked my subtype and then leveled up to my final class at 19 and then actually attained my final designation at 20. it was cool, very cool. yes it's true, I was unable to try out each and every class from the start but that's ok.

why?

because if I wanted to know more about other classes I would watch them, read about them, ask other people about them, and look stuff up on the net --- there is a wealth of information about almost everything there. and also because since it took time and energy to get my final designation it had more value, esentially more pleasure when I got there. Greater reward. by making instant final designations you are essentially removing a reward from the game. and make no mistake, that is why we play, reward. the same thing goes for tradeskilling, changing it is removal of reward. endgame tradeskilling will mean much much less. I'd be furious if I had a couple or a few 60 tradeskillers.

if these two changes are the start of or part of a continuting pattern it really does seem like a WoWification of this game might be underway. and I can tell you that's not a good thing because you are taking away the things in this game that give it an edge over WoW. it's like a land based people choosing to fight a war with a sea based people on the water. one is giving up a prime advantage.

EQ2 is the early PC comptuer as WoW is to the apple macintosh. Quite plainly WoW is a better product in terms of polish, fit, and finish, and packaging much like the Macintosh was. But I think we all remember who won that fight in the end.

Nerwen · 02-02-2006, 08:03 PM

You do make some good points - however, there is one thing that WoW did right, that EQII (so far) has not. (Now, in all fairness, I see signs of the developers working to correct this issue, so I don't think that the situation is not being addressed. I do think it will take a while to get to the point where we should have been all along.)Specifically - WoW did items correctly, especially clothing.Now, I am not talking about style of clothing. I know that many people don't like the way that WoW graphics look, and that is fine, but that is not my topic. I am not talking about the style of clothing - I am talking about sheer, unvarnished quantity.WoW must have an amazing art department. If there are not thousands of robes, shoes, gloves, hats, and shirts, there must at least be hundreds of them. If I get a new piece of equipment, of any kind, and don't like the looks of it, it is not at all difficult to get another that I like better. Please note that, again, I am not discussing quality of gear, or uber "raid" gear, or quest pieces which are difficult to obtain. I am simply saying that in WoW, it is possible have an actual wardrobe. As a rule of thumb, no two orcs, trolls, night elves, dwarves, or anyone else look alike. I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW. I only hope that they will not quit halfway through - this game could be amazing if only they will commit to clothing graphics, and see it through to the end!Jen SMILEY

Bhee · 02-02-2006, 08:24 PM

Very good observations from bothe the posters above. I am ex WoW player - I reached mid 30s with 4 characters in 2 weeks of semi-casual play. Then I realized that EQ2 has many positive points in its favor and came back. I have been playing EQ2 since SMILEY

.One more thing (in addition to points made in other posts) I like about EQ2 is community. Maybe I am fortunate, but I found more mature player base in EQ2. My experiences in WoW were not as pleasing SMILEY

.I appreciate the fact that EQ2 is constantly adding contents, but I would ike to see more romor, romes, casual cloths in it. After all, we are role-players SMILEY

.

Xev · 02-02-2006, 08:55 PM

greploco wrote:
especially the class system that went from levels 1 to 20. I've never seen anything like it. it really ment something when I picked my subtype and then leveled up to my final class at 19 and then actually attained my final designation at 20. it was cool, very cool. yes it's true, I was unable to try out each and every class from the start but that's ok.

why?

because if I wanted to know more about other classes I would watch them, read about them, ask other people about them, and look stuff up on the net --- there is a wealth of information about almost everything there. and also because since it took time and energy to get my final designation it had more value, esentially more pleasure when I got there. Greater reward. by making instant final designations you are essentially removing a reward from the game. and make no mistake, that is why we play, reward. the same thing goes for tradeskilling, changing it is removal of reward. endgame tradeskilling will mean much much less. I'd be furious if I had a couple or a few 60 tradeskillers.I agree with what you have said about WoW, basically. At the above point in your post though, i strongly disagree with you. While initially, with your first character, going through the entire archetype system seemed ok, I think for most people it is more of a hinderence and more of a tedious pain than anything. THe problem with the archetype system is that it takes you 20 levels to get to the class you intend to play. Levels 1-19 are often drastically different than how your final class selection plays 20+ and can give false impressions. If a player levels up to their 20's and discovers that the class isn't fun for them and doesn't play like they thought it would and they want to reroll, they have lost a lot of time and effort and now have to go through the same tedious process again, just to find out if the next class they choose is one they will like.Yes, people can read about classes, but reading about them and playing them is very different. It is really almost impossible for someone to know if they will like a class or not until they have sat down and spent some time playing them. By removing this archetype system, it lets players choose a class, play them early on before leveling is very time consuming and decide if they enjoy it or not. If they don't and want to reroll, they haven't lost nearly as much time and effort as they would have before, nor do they have to go through the same tedious process of playing the same generic classes again.While for you, this may be removing some sort of reward, although I honestly can't fathom how the current system is more rewarding, for the majority of players, this is a very good thing and will encourage people to more actively try different classes and it will also not do as much to turn away new players as they can jump right in and play the class they want rather than waiting 20 levels to do so. I honestly see this as an entirely positive change and think that had SOE done it this way from the start, they probably would have a larger playerbase than they do now.

if these two changes are the start of or part of a continuting pattern it really does seem like a WoWification of this game might be underway. and I can tell you that's not a good thing because you are taking away the things in this game that give it an edge over WoW. it's like a land based people choosing to fight a war with a sea based people on the water. one is giving up a prime advantage.
Yes, the wowification of this game would be bad, but this game still isn't even close to WoW, even with the changes. So far, the things they have taken from WoW were the good things, the good ideas that blizzard was the first to utilize in an MMORPG, some of which will most likely be a part of the majority of new MMORPG's coming out. This isn't a bad thing, it's just the genre evolving. Blizz did a great job of streamlining certain aspects of these games and others are learning from that. SOE is just removing or changing certain tedious aspects of their game that really have no reason to be part of it. This is a game and it should be fun, not boring, what is the harm in removing the boring parts that most people don't enjoy anyway? And besides, EQ2 is still no where near as simple as WoW is and even with changes to class selection and tradeskilling, it is still much more complex and contains much more depth and wealth of content.
EQ2 is the early PC comptuer as WoW is to the apple macintosh. Quite plainly WoW is a better product in terms of polish, fit, and finish, and packaging much like the Macintosh was. But I think we all remember who won that fight in the end.

I know lots of people are worried that these changes are goign to have a negative impact on this game, but if anything, i believe they are starting a trend of making this game more attractive to more people and can potentially breathe new life into it. WoW is beginning to lose a lot of players because of some huge problems regarding the end game, SOE has fortunately not gone the same route and is able to be played by casual players at any point in the game as well as offering content for the more hardcore players. The changes to combat, character selection and the addition of PvP are enticing a lot of people to come back to this game, including myself. While it may seem like they are dumbing down the game, they are just making it more enjoyable for more people. There is still much more depth and challenge than WoW and it is still a drastically different game than WoW. I would at least recommend giving the new changes a try before claiming they will be the end of the game.

greploco · 02-02-2006, 08:57 PM

thanks for the complements, I gave this some thought

hm, I have not noticed that about the clothing but I have not seen a lot of EQ2 yet. yes, you could make several different items of clothing in WoW, not sure about a wardrobe but you could definitely have fun with it. if that's missing in EQ2 I suppose that's something that would need work, the game does need more polish. The look and feel of a game matters a lot. In business they say there are three "P"s --- product, packaging, and price. You can somewhat fail with product and price and still do ok if you have packaging. quite simply people have to be grabbed by the look and feel of something (and advertizing) if they are ever going to purchase it. EQ2 just needs to work on it's packaging, not dumb itself down to WoW levels.

Remove of the tradeskill system will be especiallly damaging. I suppose if someone groups all the time in EQ2 they can indeed powerlevel but there isn't too much of a way to do that with the tradeskill system --- as far as I can tell at this point. simplification of the system makes attaining level 60 tradeskill less rewarding. it would be one thing if it was so painfull that people were simply generally unwilling to do this but that doesn't seem to be the case.

look at eve online -- they have a real time based learning system, when things are attained there they have some extra meaning and reward. and they have one of the strongest player bases around with a huge economy.

as for maturity of player base, that's certainly true. WoW has the most immature player base I've ever seen. the 24/7 no-DK gankage system attracts not only people who enjoy some healthy competition but also the most annoying irritating dweebs on the planet earth.

Xev · 02-02-2006, 09:06 PM

greploco wrote:
thanks for the complements, I gave this some thought

hm, I have not noticed that about the clothing but I have not seen a lot of EQ2 yet. yes, you could make several different items of clothing in WoW, not sure about a wardrobe but you could definitely have fun with it. if that's missing in EQ2 I suppose that's something that would need work, the game does need more polish. Yeah, the armor and weapons in this game need a ton of work. I'm sure you will start to notice as you level more, but essentially all the armor looks the same. There are very few different patterns and designs to each type of armor and the level 60 armor, for the most part, looks almost identical to the same armor characters can be wearing at level 10 or 20. It's a very big complaint from lots of players, myself included. I love the variety and creativity that WoW offered with their armor and weapons. I wouldn't like to see EQ2 have the same designs or anything, but if they would start making some creative looks and making some armor that didn't look so puritanical it would do a lot to add some much needed flavor to the game.The look and feel of a game matters a lot. In business they say there are three "P"s --- product, packaging, and price. You can somewhat fail with product and price and still do ok if you have packaging. quite simply people have to be grabbed by the look and feel of something (and advertizing) if they are ever going to purchase it. EQ2 just needs to work on it's packaging, not dumb itself down to WoW levels.You're very right. I wouldn't worry too much about them dumbing it down though, with the changes they really have not made it that much more like WoW.

Remove of the tradeskill system will be especiallly damaging. I suppose if someone groups all the time in EQ2 they can indeed powerlevel but there isn't too much of a way to do that with the tradeskill system --- as far as I can tell at this point. simplification of the system makes attaining level 60 tradeskill less rewarding. it would be one thing if it was so painfull that people were simply generally unwilling to do this but that doesn't seem to be the case.I see lots of complaints about this, and I can somewhat understand old players that have been crafting being upset about it, I still see it as a positive change. The reason being, is that with the current system, for the average person, there is too much tedium. With the amount of combines and little things you have to make that really don't seem applicable to your chosen craft, it can be very frustrating when someone just wants to get to work making items for the craft that they like. The system is still going to be much more complex and interactive than WoW's, they are just removing a few of the more monotonous steps of the process. And also, crafting here will always be important and have a place. Unlike WoW, the items made from crafting are very useable and worth making.

look at eve online -- they have a real time based learning system, when things are attained there they have some extra meaning and reward. and they have one of the strongest player bases around with a huge economy.
That is true, but you also have to consider how different Eve Online is from other MMORPG's. It appeals to a different crowd for one thing and has a different style of gameplay.
as for maturity of player base, that's certainly true. WoW has the most immature player base I've ever seen. the 24/7 no-DK gankage system attracts not only people who enjoy some healthy competition but also the most annoying irritating dweebs on the planet earth.
Amen!

greploco · 02-02-2006, 09:09 PM

I agree with what you have said about WoW, basically. At the above point in your post though, i strongly disagree with you. While initially, with your first character, going through the entire archetype system seemed ok, I think for most people it is more of a hinderence and more of a tedious pain than anything. THe problem with the archetype system is that it takes you 20 levels to get to the class you intend to play. Levels 1-19 are often drastically different than how your final class selection plays 20+ and can give false impressions. If a player levels up to their 20's and discovers that the class isn't fun for them and doesn't play like they thought it would and they want to reroll, they have lost a lot of time and effort and now have to go through the same tedious process again, just to find out if the next class they choose is one they will like.Yes, people can read about classes, but reading about them and playing them is very different. It is really almost impossible for someone to know if they will like a class or not until they have sat down and spent some time playing them. By removing this archetype system, it lets players choose a class, play them early on before leveling is very time consuming and decide if they enjoy it or not. If they don't and want to reroll, they haven't lost nearly as much time and effort as they would have before, nor do they have to go through the same tedious process of playing the same generic classes again.While for you, this may be removing some sort of reward, although I honestly can't fathom how the current system is more rewarding, for the majority of players, this is a very good thing and will encourage people to more actively try different classes and it will also not do as much to turn away new players as they can jump right in and play the class they want rather than waiting 20 levels to do so. I honestly see this as an entirely positive change and think that had SOE done it this way from the start, they probably would have a larger playerbase than they do now.

I can honestly say that my short experience with the archtype/subtype system from my meager levels 1-23 has been very cool. it took a while to get there and I suppose I'd be angry if I got to my final type and I was unhappy --- but I really did read up on everything before I dove into the game. it was totally fun. and finally reaching level 19 and going through the chinsy class quests and getting the weapon? totally cool. it also gave me some time in the game playing to observe and think about it more before I made my final choice. to simply log in and determine everything right away, well that will take that fun out of it. I've really never seen anything like this progression, I'd have to say it distinguished this game -- and now it's gone.

as for trying out other classes? yeah, I did log into the isle of refuge as a mage and scout and so on. I actually did feel like I got a fair general idea of a class in that time. but then again I'm an experienced player who already knows metaphoricly what a pet-class is and feels like or a healer or an agile damage type character.

regardless though -- it's all moot. I just want to say ya, I totally enjoyed the progression but who knows, maybe this will indeed make it more accessable and popular at the expense of losing some depth of game.

Nervaaz · 02-02-2006, 09:10 PM

The Archtype system was one of the unique and distinct features that seperated it from any other MMO out there. I totally agree with the original poster that it set the game apart and made it a feeling of accomplishment to get to 20 and receive your new title. For those who talk of the "monotony" all I have to ask is, "What game were you playing??" Between Test and Live servers I have 8 toons over level 20, and never found getting those characters to 20 monotonous. It only takes a couple of weeks max of very casual playing to get a toon over level 20. How can that be monotonous. You want monotonous, how about grinding hell levels in EQ1?

I'm not sure that they are making the game more like WoW cuz i've never playing "that other game" ... but I do feel they are continually removing aspects of the game that gave it its uniqueness. True, some ideas that looked good on paper before the game came out didn't play out well, but I have truly NEVER heard any player in the past 6 months (and I'm online pretty much daily) complain that Newbie Island needed to be changed, or the character advancement process needed to be revamped!! It was a total non-issue.

My biggest gripe with the new advancement system, however, is that it is a slap in the face to players who have been with this game from the start, and have advanced characters in all their available character slots. Unless SOE decides to surprise us with a couple of new slots (***HINT --- It would be NICE!!) then this is all so much dust in the wind to most of the long-term player base anyways. It looks GREAT .... but is less then useless to me, as I have no free slots to make a new character.

BigbyWo · 02-02-2006, 09:26 PM

Nervaaz wrote:
The Archtype system was one of the unique and distinct features that seperated it from any other MMO out there.

The Archetype system may be "unique", but I'm not sure it added anything to the game beyond that sense of accomplishment you feel at 20. In fact, I leveled up an Assassin to 35, and was considering rolling up a Ranger ... but decided not to simply because I had already played Predator for 20 levels. Its not that Pred was boring or monotonous, but why go through the same path? My point being that the character advancement process did not add a lot, it was ok but it did not add anything so fantastic that this new change could be considered "worse" ... more options, more variation of game play and more choices are almost always good things.

Neave · 02-02-2006, 09:46 PM

Nerwen wrote:I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW.

I completely agree here. I really enjoy eq2 and would never leave, but the variety in armour is poor, and the appearance is definately lacking. The colours are often muddy or faded in appearance, lacking detail and are repeated ad naseum.I think for most people the game is really all about their characters, so being able to choose from a variety of colours and styles of outfit (whether or not the stats vary), as well as a large range of casual outfits for tradeskillers would be a great and welcome addition.

selch · 02-02-2006, 09:50 PM

Actually you can see how detailed armors are if you open specular lightning with texture resolution High but yes, a bit variety needed but for heck armors are much more detailed than WoW ones.

MagicWand · 02-02-2006, 09:55 PM

Nerwen wrote:You do make some good points - however, there is one thing that WoW did right, that EQII (so far) has not. (Now, in all fairness, I see signs of the developers working to correct this issue, so I don't think that the situation is not being addressed. I do think it will take a while to get to the point where we should have been all along.)Specifically - WoW did items correctly, especially clothing.Now, I am not talking about style of clothing. I know that many people don't like the way that WoW graphics look, and that is fine, but that is not my topic. I am not talking about the style of clothing - I am talking about sheer, unvarnished quantity.WoW must have an amazing art department. If there are not thousands of robes, shoes, gloves, hats, and shirts, there must at least be hundreds of them. If I get a new piece of equipment, of any kind, and don't like the looks of it, it is not at all difficult to get another that I like better. Please note that, again, I am not discussing quality of gear, or uber "raid" gear, or quest pieces which are difficult to obtain. I am simply saying that in WoW, it is possible have an actual wardrobe. As a rule of thumb, no two orcs, trolls, night elves, dwarves, or anyone else look alike. I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW. I only hope that they will not quit halfway through - this game could be amazing if only they will commit to clothing graphics, and see it through to the end!Jen

If SoE had the same varity of clothing and other items that's found in WoW, EQ2 would probably take up 100+ gigabite (I am guessing but its a huge number) hard drive space. EQ2 is much more graphic intensive then WoW's tiny polygon count.

Xev · 02-02-2006, 10:02 PM

greploco wrote:
I can honestly say that my short experience with the archtype/subtype system from my meager levels 1-23 has been very cool. it took a while to get there and I suppose I'd be angry if I got to my final type and I was unhappy --- but I really did read up on everything before I dove into the game. I did too, but reading and playing are very different. A lot of times, something sounds like it's what you want on paper, but when you actually play it, it isn't exactly what you thought. This hasn't been a big problem for me personally, but I know many others have had that problem.it was totally fun. and finally reaching level 19 and going through the chinsy class quests and getting the weapon? totally cool. it also gave me some time in the game playing to observe and think about it more before I made my final choice. to simply log in and determine everything right away, well that will take that fun out of it.Just curious, you said that you read up on everything before you dove into the game. If you already knew a lot about the classes and such, then why would you really need to observe the differences before making your decision? Also, while the archetype selection quests at level 9 give you an idea of what the general tone of a class is, they don't give you enough details as to how they will actually play. For example: The Qeynos fighter quest...for the warrior part, they tell you that warriors rely on their weapons to survive and have you go kill a few easy mobs. For brawlers, they tell you that brawlers rely on avoidance and using their own bodies as weapons and then have you go talk to a few NPC's. For crusaders, they tell you that crusaders fight for a cause and are the leaders in battle and have you go kill a few mobs again, but tell you it is with conviction.None of those steps actually demonstrates how each subclass will play out differently from one another. It just tells you the basic idea behind them, which most people already probably know before playing. If you have read up on the game prior to playing, then you would already have that information anyway.While it might take the fun out of the game for you, having this system removed, for the majority of players, being able to choose your class from the start and actually getting to experience it without having to level to your 20's is a very good thing. I've really never seen anything like this progression, I'd have to say it distinguished this game -- and now it's gone.I've seen similar progressions. DAOC for example, you had to choose a basic archetype and then level to 5 before you pick your final class. That is much less of a hassle than leveling to 20 to get to play the class you want, but even so, for most players there it was more of a tedious exercise that you had to do just to get into the meat of the game.

as for trying out other classes? yeah, I did log into the isle of refuge as a mage and scout and so on. I actually did feel like I got a fair general idea of a class in that time. but then again I'm an experienced player who already knows metaphoricly what a pet-class is and feels like or a healer or an agile damage type character.
I'm a very experienced player and from playing the classes on the isle of refuge you can get a basic idea of what each archetype is supposed to do, ie. scouts damage with fast melee attacks, casters use ranged damage, priests heal and fighters tank, but that is a very shallow bit of what your final classes will do and they end up branching off in other directions in many cases.An example would be a class such as the illusionist. You start out as a mage and learn that you will have good nukes to kill stuff. Then at 10 that totally changes with your subclass and you start to get a general idea of how your class will play out, which is very much different than how it started. Then at 20 you change again, and while it will have many similarities to its previous incarnation, it is still a big change and you finally start getting spells and abillities that define your final class and which make your final class play out much differently than before. That being the case, what is the point in spending the first 19 levels playing in a way that isn't representative of the class you are going to end up with?While there are some classes that basically stay the same throughout the entire progression, many of them do not and having your class pull a 180 on you after 20 levels is kind of annoying. I would much rather know exactly what i am getting into before wasting that much time and I would rather start out with the same types of abilities that I will be using through my career than following a generic pattern with abilities that aren't representative of the class.One other thing about the archetype system. The first time you go through it, yeah it's ok, not that big a deal, but anytime you make an alt, you have to go through the same process, even if you know exactly what you are doign and what you want to play. And for people that want to make alts of the same archetype, ie. a wizard and a warlock or other mage class, they have to go through another 19 levels of playing with the same generic archetype and same generic spells. It becomes irritating quickly to have to do all of taht over again any time you want to try a new class.
regardless though -- it's all moot. I just want to say ya, I totally enjoyed the progression but who knows, maybe this will indeed make it more accessable and popular at the expense of losing some depth of game.
I honestly don't see the archetype system as adding any depth. I dont' see how playing generic roles that are often not representative of your class is depth. If it is the quests leading up to all of this that you miss, i believe they have added many new quests with this update, including quests on the islands, which are now faction specific, and in my opinion, that adds more depth than the previous version right there. There are new racial quests you do once you leave the islands as well. There is still plenty of depth, they are just removing an aspect that really did little to benefit anyone and changing it to a system that will make things better and more enjoyable from the start for a large majority of people.

standupwookie · 02-02-2006, 10:33 PM

The only thing that EQ2 has over WOW is the "things to do" area. EQ2 has housing, guilds, a huge crafting system, and a lot of areas (though people only use about 10 zones) to utilize.WOW is by far a superior product, both in terms of technical quality and art direction. Whether or not you like that style is a moot point. The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.EQ2 fails on just about every thing that WOW did right.Now, whether or not you enjoy WOW or EQ2 is entirely up to you. I played WOW and got to the end level in about a month and thats it, nothing else to do, game over. EQ2 takes a little bit longer. No sense is paying for a game you dont play, so thats why I stopped playing WOW.After playing all of SOE's mmorpgs I think its safe to say that its the company and not really the fault of the creative people. Maybe all the real creative people just got tired of dealing with SOE (that happens) and jumped ship to other products. I dont see any real creativity in EQ2 like I saw with WOW, and I dont think I ever will.I enjoy EQ2 for what it is,

ValValline · 02-02-2006, 10:53 PM

standupwookie wrote:The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.

WoW has had several major changes to classes and talent trees in the past 6 months with more revamps promised to come. It may not be a total a revamp as was seen in EQ2 with LU13, but to say they haven't made similar changes is not true.

greploco · 02-02-2006, 11:10 PM

Just curious, you said that you read up on everything before you dove into the game. If you already knew a lot about the classes and such, then why would you really need to observe the differences before making your decision?

I learned additional information in observing the game in action if not from my first person view then from by teaming with people and observing them in my leveling from 1 to 19 as well as talking to people ingame while I was playing. the fact is though, even if I did play my subclass right from level 1 I still wouldn't know what it's like at level 60, that's true for all mmo.

I'm a very experienced player and from playing the classes on the isle of refuge you can get a basic idea of what each archetype is supposed to do, ie. scouts damage with fast melee attacks, casters use ranged damage, priests heal and fighters tank, but that is a very shallow bit of what your final classes will do and they end up branching off in other directions in many cases.

Na, it still gives you a basic idea of what the future holds, and that's all you can reasonably hope for at the low levels anyway.

The first time you go through it, yeah it's ok, not that big a deal, but anytime you make an alt, you have to go through the same process, even if you know exactly what you are doign and what you want to play. And for people that want to make alts of the same archetype, ie. a wizard and a warlock or other mage class, they have to go through another 19 levels of playing with the same generic archetype and same generic spells. It becomes irritating quickly to have to do all of taht over again any time you want to try a new class.

well, I could believe that.

but as someone else posted, and I paraphrase here -- it's not really that bad. It's point of view really. I did find it a little irritating that I couldn't try out a bunch of things before I decided, but once I had an idea of what I wanted and followed through with it I found the process enjoyable and didn't mind the earlier irritation. and as I said before, I enjoyed the reward of attaining my final class subtype and I'm sorry to see the little progression system gone from the game. It's a bean counter decision to make the game simpler and more accessable, more wow-easy like, and it's a failure of vision on the part of management -- you don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you.

but that's just my 2c from seeing what I have seen.

Hecklerko · 02-02-2006, 11:12 PM

Many point to WoW's Talent system as a very good thing for character customization (and it is) and believe EQ2's lack of it makes character development stale. Obviously there isn't an equivalent in EQ2 but, keep in mind, EQ1 had no such thing either until SOE added Alternate Advancement. Don't be fooled into thinking no such change is in EQ2s future, SOE already has the track record (and code) for it and before WoW even existed. If/when it is put in I hope SOE doesn't make it for the 50+ chars but rather goes more with WoW's L10 availability.

Some think EQ2 has too many classes while WoW has far less. That's really not true when you take WoW's Talent system into account. Each WoW class has the potential, beginning at L10, to branch off into 3 separate specialties, can you say Shadow Priest? SMILEY

Anyway, nice well thought out post.

greploco · 02-02-2006, 11:19 PM

standupwookie wrote:The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.
ValValline wrote:WoW has had several major changes to classes and talent trees in the past 6 months with more revamps promised to come. It may not be a total a revamp as was seen in EQ2 with LU13, but to say they haven't made similar changes is not true.

totally, there have been huge reworks. in WoW fundamental altering reworks addressing balance, role, soloability, and/or team roles have been done to about 1/3 of the classes and there are plans to do the rest as well. the only thing that the WoW devs didn't do half-baked is the game environment, it's quite a rendered beauty even if it does have lower polygon count. even if it is done comic book style, it's a well drawn comic book. the rest from choice of endgame equipment to variability of character models to class balancing to the combat systems is half to two thirds baked in the greatest traditions of mmos and will continue to be worked on.

Geekyone · 02-02-2006, 11:28 PM

Make the first character of a new account have to do the archtype, class, subclass thing until they reach 20 once. Then they can do the start at final product thing.

lillin · 02-03-2006, 12:00 AM

Well on topic of OP .....

What your saying is EQ2 is becoming similar to WoW in both character advancement as well as easy tradeskilling.

Whelp guess what, WoW copied EQ1 advancement (ie pick what class at level 1) and the tradeskilling in WoW is pretty close to eq1's (find the parts ya need of mobs and such and put em together).

EQ2 tried a different approach to TSing and character advancement, and it just didn't work as well as desired. Now TSing i can go either way because the long old way and the new faster way both have thier pros and cons but character advancement was pretty boring from 1 -20 the second, third, forth, fifth, six, seventh, ect.. go round. Think about it like this, you had to become level 30 before you could get a full base of class specific spells to even begin to see if you like the class. And that is fun?

TSing in EQ2 i find its like playing solitaire, very boring making sub combine after sub combine after sub combine, then secondary combine two times, then you can combine your final product. Congratulations !!!! You have made one drink..... It really gets annoying when you have an order for about 10 plus stacks of that drink. So who wins keeping TSing the hard way? Two people do the people who can put up with it and make some money and the bots who go afk and cook stacks while watching tv, no work required. The new way may bring more people into crafting and therefore lower prices from underbidding but big deal. Now more people can get things done a little faster with out thinking, hmm maybe i should download a bot because i feel stupid actually doing all this for 1 drink/food/what ever.

So they change the game to be like another from what ever game its trying to be this week. They saw problems with current state of game and changed it to see if its a more welcome alternative. Give it a chance, who know WoW might end up coping EQ2 one day instead of EQ1.

Btw, this would probally be better posted in general gameplay forum since you were wondering.

Jai1 · 02-03-2006, 12:02 AM

I'm kinda concerned about the future of tradeskills and the market. Call me an elistist but I like that not everyone likes to do them where as in WoW everyone has 300 in both professions plus medical and cooking by the time they hit 60. My preference isn't towards WoW but I think EQ2 has a superior market economy. I wasn't able to read the market like I can in EQ and make a profit. I also didn't like the AH.

I don't think the current system is a grind. I haven't grinded since 40 when I started to deal exclusively in rares. I think rares give more experience but I have been leveling smoothly just restocking my store. I even hit 56 before I made anything in T6. I'm 58 and have a ton of discovery exp for the expansion.

If I have any complaints, its for making WORTS. I'd buy them if they were reasonably priced. I cringe when I run out of liquids but it doesnt take long stopping at crude to get 40 or so. There would be big improvements if they doubled the batch.

So, I will just wait it out. If it's easier to produce finished items it will be easier for everyone. Even the current crafters. I just don't want to see the market flooded and seeing people make 10% just to offload.

Geekyone · 02-03-2006, 12:04 AM

I agree Jai1...I hate Tradeskilling and crafting cause it takes a long time of bordom (just mho). But if it is made so simple I will stop supporting the tradeskillers and crafters and start doing it myself.

Mathe · 02-03-2006, 12:34 AM

I wish people would stop saying taking out subcombines will make everyone be a crafter. Subcombines make it easier to level up crafting. Just the pristine bonus xp off of them gets your several levels in the final tier, the first few tiers either can be completely done or mostly done just off the pristine bonus xp. Not to mention they horribly clutter up the recipes book. Knowing 1000 recipes isn't all that impressive when only a couple dozen are actually useful.

TalanRM · 02-03-2006, 01:05 AM

No MMORG economy can support crafting if the majority of players are high level crafters. Just about everyone would know someone who is willing to make what they need for free. Crafting does not contain any quests, nor any risk, therefore it actually needs an element of grind to keep the number if crafters on a server down to a level which does not swamp the market (it takes exactly 2 crafters undercutting each other to prevent any regular sales in a tier (i.e. none legendary orders) from being not worth the effort to place items on the market). The trick is finding the balance between the element of grind and not too much grind.

Ultharion · 02-03-2006, 01:39 AM

I know the Chicken Littles in this game will always find something to gripe about with any change, so I really shouldn't be surprised to read long portents of doom like this riddled with words like "WoW" and "dumbing down", but really...1.) Class choice at first level. You're crying about this being somehow a descent to oversimplicity? This has been a staple of most class based games FOR DECADES. "WoWization" - puh-lease, you might as well call it "EQization" or "DAOCization", "Rogue-like-ization", "D&D-ization", or whatever other melodramatic, angsty, "ohnoes change is badwrongscary!!!" catch phrase you can. Yes it's different. That does not make it bad. Breathe into the paper bag and get a grip. Illusionists will have to spend their first 10 levels as illusionists, not as wizards, shadow knights will be shadow knights from the start, not warriors and paladins. This is bad? Uh huh...2.) Elimination of subcombines in crafting. People seem to be decrying this under the misperception that it will somehow make it easier to level a crafter character and make worthless all the work it's taken them to get to the 60th level as a crafter. This is absurd. It actually makes the process of levelling as a crafter *more* difficult, as the elimination of subcombine components means a significant reduction in first-time pristine crafting experience. It is a boon to those who are heavy crafters, as it in the end is simply a reduction in the toil they need to get to the actual stuff that sells, and is in demand by the end user. Again, the SKY IS NOT FALLING.I know I'm really just wasting my breath. Truly, by all means, continue to wail and wring your hands, and utter your laments and dire predictions. The game will continue to evolve, continue to change, and I'm sure with each step, you'll find something dire. The rest of us can just roll with the punches, take each change in turn, and evolve and adapt with the game as it grows.

Message Edited by Ultharion on 02-02-200601:04 PM

mayhem111 · 02-03-2006, 01:44 AM

I think crafting plays too much of a role in the game atm. If your a 50+ plus person pretty much everything you have is player crafted. Why go out and kill stuff? Ahh yes to get money to buy the stuff you need. Nothing that a person can get really matches up to legendary items. Having the majority of players running around in cobalt armor and weapons is just wrong if you ask me.

What happened to using heritage weapons and other quest based stuff. The game is called everquest right? There really is no quest now its just farm names to get stuff you can sell to buy stuff. Everybody remembers when they finished the pgt quest or the bbc quest and got that cool weapon. No is just buy one for the tier and maybe if your lucky enough to get one on a raid (assuming your raid) or lucky enough to get one dropped your can use from an instance.

And why the whining about crafters sheesh? Most crafters I know use macros to lvl thier toons. Using macros to lvl and make stuff for you to sell is just as bad as the farming botters people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about so much. Its about time that crafters got some competition. If people wouldn't charge so much for legendary items maybe people would buy more of your items and you would make more money.

I know back in the day when I was lvling my first toon (swashbuckler) buying an adept 3 for anything was right out the window. No starting character has enough money to buy those things. Crafters now adays are making and baseing prices off assuming all players are twinks and they can charge whatever they want and they will still buy it.

As far as the new character progression I like it alot. I played a swashbuckler (main is a 60) on test and got him to about 10th lvl. And know what he plays very close to what my 60 swash plays like. I'm going to assume that most classes are that way. So why play a class and have that class completely change after 20 lvls. You want to play a arrow shooting fool start a ranger from the get go. And the rewards you get from getting lvl 10 and 20? If maybe that is your first character yes you will use it. Otherwise its a trip to the local crafter to buy decent stuff for the tier.

All in all I think eq needs to have more quest and quest based loot that is actually useful and not vendor trash to buy crafted stuff.

Xev · 02-03-2006, 01:49 AM

standupwookie wrote:The only thing that EQ2 has over WOW is the "things to do" area. That is your opinion, not necessarily a fact. EQ2 has housing, guilds, a huge crafting system, and a lot of areas (though people only use about 10 zones) to utilize.WOW is by far a superior product, both in terms of technical quality and art direction. More opinion. I think regarding art direction, many people would agree with you, it does have excellent art direction. Technical quality on the other hand, i'm really not really sure what about WoW, from a technical standpoint would be superior.Whether or not you like that style is a moot point. The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. Not necessarily. Just because they don't have major combat overhauls doesn't mean that they shouldn't have them. The balance among classes in WoW is really not all that great. And for the record they have been going through each class and redoing their talent trees as well as unique abilities and such in an attempt to rebalance them because the way they were initially designed was not working out as well as their "planning" had made them think it would. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.EQ2 fails on just about every thing that WOW did right. Such as?Now, whether or not you enjoy WOW or EQ2 is entirely up to you. I played WOW and got to the end level in about a month and thats it, nothing else to do, game over. EQ2 takes a little bit longer. No sense is paying for a game you dont play, so thats why I stopped playing WOW.After playing all of SOE's mmorpgs I think its safe to say that its the company and not really the fault of the creative people. Maybe all the real creative people just got tired of dealing with SOE (that happens) and jumped ship to other products. I dont see any real creativity in EQ2 like I saw with WOW, and I dont think I ever will.I think that the weapons and armor in WoW are definitely far superior in terms of diversity and creativity. I also think, that generally, the WoW environments are a little more creative. Not all of them, but there are some that are very unique. The environments in EQ2 are very good, they are just presented in a more realistic manner. With KoS, it appears they are goign to be adding some more imaginitive environments and hopefully better armor and weapons will follow.I enjoy EQ2 for what it is,

Goejun · 02-03-2006, 01:59 AM

LOL Ultharion , u are a killer. I think the OP speak about things he doesn't know or he doesn't understand...

Xev · 02-03-2006, 02:06 AM

greploco wrote:

I learned additional information in observing the game in action if not from my first person view then from by teaming with people and observing them in my leveling from 1 to 19 as well as talking to people ingame while I was playing. the fact is though, even if I did play my subclass right from level 1 I still wouldn't know what it's like at level 60, that's true for all mmo.Fair enough. I disagree with you on this. I really don't think that the old system was set up in a way to help you learn your character, at least not as well as starting off playing your class. But, we're entitled to have different viewpoints on it, so I can respect yours.

Na, it still gives you a basic idea of what the future holds, and that's all you can reasonably hope for at the low levels anyway.It gives you an idea of how the combat system and general function of the game works, yes, but not how your future class will outside of your main role (healer, nuker, dps, tank). This update allows you to learn how your specific class will function outside of its basic archetype.

well, I could believe that.

but as someone else posted, and I paraphrase here -- it's not really that bad. It's point of view really. I did find it a little irritating that I couldn't try out a bunch of things before I decided, but once I had an idea of what I wanted and followed through with it I found the process enjoyable and didn't mind the earlier irritation. Well that is your personal preference and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Everyone enjoys different things. The reason it is being changed though is to accomadate the majority and to them, having to go through that process for every character or anytime they want to make an alt just to try a class has become very irritating and a deterrent for creating new characters.and as I said before, I enjoyed the reward of attaining my final class subtype and I'm sorry to see the little progression system gone from the game. It's a bean counter decision to make the game simpler and more accessable, more wow-easy like, and it's a failure of vision on the part of management -- you don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you.I agree with your statement "You don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you." However, in order to improve the game, you have to be aware of what competitors are doing successfully. If people never incorporated others ideas or worked on finding ways to improve those new ideas, then there really would be no innovation and/or the process of changing a product for the better would be even slower than it is now. All in all, i see the majority of the changes that SOE is making as positive ones that will help to improve the game and help it to grow and survive in the long run.

but that's just my 2c from seeing what I have seen.

All of this is my opinion of course, there are different viewpoints and yours seem to be as valid as any. I can surely understand why some people would be upset by these changes if they actually enjoyed the way it has been, but I hope that I am at least presenting a decent argument for why the changes are made and how it is important to cater more to the majority than the minority in the game. All of that aside, I hope that you can still find some enjoyment from the game and that the changes wont' be as bad as you think.

Success · 02-03-2006, 02:13 AM

I don't see it as the WoW-ization of EQ2. I see it as taking good ideas and better gameplay ideas and replacing EQ2's flawed ones.

02-02-2006, 08:03 PM	#2
Nerwen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 173	You do make some good points - however, there is one thing that WoW did right, that EQII (so far) has not. (Now, in all fairness, I see signs of the developers working to correct this issue, so I don't think that the situation is not being addressed. I do think it will take a while to get to the point where we should have been all along.)Specifically - WoW did items correctly, especially clothing.Now, I am not talking about style of clothing. I know that many people don't like the way that WoW graphics look, and that is fine, but that is not my topic. I am not talking about the style of clothing - I am talking about sheer, unvarnished quantity.WoW must have an amazing art department. If there are not thousands of robes, shoes, gloves, hats, and shirts, there must at least be hundreds of them. If I get a new piece of equipment, of any kind, and don't like the looks of it, it is not at all difficult to get another that I like better. Please note that, again, I am not discussing quality of gear, or uber "raid" gear, or quest pieces which are difficult to obtain. I am simply saying that in WoW, it is possible have an actual wardrobe. As a rule of thumb, no two orcs, trolls, night elves, dwarves, or anyone else look alike. I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW. I only hope that they will not quit halfway through - this game could be amazing if only they will commit to clothing graphics, and see it through to the end!Jen __________________

02-02-2006, 08:24 PM	#3
Bhee General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 76	Very good observations from bothe the posters above. I am ex WoW player - I reached mid 30s with 4 characters in 2 weeks of semi-casual play. Then I realized that EQ2 has many positive points in its favor and came back. I have been playing EQ2 since .One more thing (in addition to points made in other posts) I like about EQ2 is community. Maybe I am fortunate, but I found more mature player base in EQ2. My experiences in WoW were not as pleasing .I appreciate the fact that EQ2 is constantly adding contents, but I would ike to see more romor, romes, casual cloths in it. After all, we are role-players . __________________

02-02-2006, 08:55 PM	#4
Xev General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	greploco wrote: especially the class system that went from levels 1 to 20. I've never seen anything like it. it really ment something when I picked my subtype and then leveled up to my final class at 19 and then actually attained my final designation at 20. it was cool, very cool. yes it's true, I was unable to try out each and every class from the start but that's ok. why? because if I wanted to know more about other classes I would watch them, read about them, ask other people about them, and look stuff up on the net --- there is a wealth of information about almost everything there. and also because since it took time and energy to get my final designation it had more value, esentially more pleasure when I got there. Greater reward. by making instant final designations you are essentially removing a reward from the game. and make no mistake, that is why we play, reward. the same thing goes for tradeskilling, changing it is removal of reward. endgame tradeskilling will mean much much less. I'd be furious if I had a couple or a few 60 tradeskillers.I agree with what you have said about WoW, basically. At the above point in your post though, i strongly disagree with you. While initially, with your first character, going through the entire archetype system seemed ok, I think for most people it is more of a hinderence and more of a tedious pain than anything. THe problem with the archetype system is that it takes you 20 levels to get to the class you intend to play. Levels 1-19 are often drastically different than how your final class selection plays 20+ and can give false impressions. If a player levels up to their 20's and discovers that the class isn't fun for them and doesn't play like they thought it would and they want to reroll, they have lost a lot of time and effort and now have to go through the same tedious process again, just to find out if the next class they choose is one they will like.Yes, people can read about classes, but reading about them and playing them is very different. It is really almost impossible for someone to know if they will like a class or not until they have sat down and spent some time playing them. By removing this archetype system, it lets players choose a class, play them early on before leveling is very time consuming and decide if they enjoy it or not. If they don't and want to reroll, they haven't lost nearly as much time and effort as they would have before, nor do they have to go through the same tedious process of playing the same generic classes again.While for you, this may be removing some sort of reward, although I honestly can't fathom how the current system is more rewarding, for the majority of players, this is a very good thing and will encourage people to more actively try different classes and it will also not do as much to turn away new players as they can jump right in and play the class they want rather than waiting 20 levels to do so. I honestly see this as an entirely positive change and think that had SOE done it this way from the start, they probably would have a larger playerbase than they do now. if these two changes are the start of or part of a continuting pattern it really does seem like a WoWification of this game might be underway. and I can tell you that's not a good thing because you are taking away the things in this game that give it an edge over WoW. it's like a land based people choosing to fight a war with a sea based people on the water. one is giving up a prime advantage. Yes, the wowification of this game would be bad, but this game still isn't even close to WoW, even with the changes. So far, the things they have taken from WoW were the good things, the good ideas that blizzard was the first to utilize in an MMORPG, some of which will most likely be a part of the majority of new MMORPG's coming out. This isn't a bad thing, it's just the genre evolving. Blizz did a great job of streamlining certain aspects of these games and others are learning from that. SOE is just removing or changing certain tedious aspects of their game that really have no reason to be part of it. This is a game and it should be fun, not boring, what is the harm in removing the boring parts that most people don't enjoy anyway? And besides, EQ2 is still no where near as simple as WoW is and even with changes to class selection and tradeskilling, it is still much more complex and contains much more depth and wealth of content. EQ2 is the early PC comptuer as WoW is to the apple macintosh. Quite plainly WoW is a better product in terms of polish, fit, and finish, and packaging much like the Macintosh was. But I think we all remember who won that fight in the end. I know lots of people are worried that these changes are goign to have a negative impact on this game, but if anything, i believe they are starting a trend of making this game more attractive to more people and can potentially breathe new life into it. WoW is beginning to lose a lot of players because of some huge problems regarding the end game, SOE has fortunately not gone the same route and is able to be played by casual players at any point in the game as well as offering content for the more hardcore players. The changes to combat, character selection and the addition of PvP are enticing a lot of people to come back to this game, including myself. While it may seem like they are dumbing down the game, they are just making it more enjoyable for more people. There is still much more depth and challenge than WoW and it is still a drastically different game than WoW. I would at least recommend giving the new changes a try before claiming they will be the end of the game.

02-02-2006, 09:06 PM	#6
Xev General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	greploco wrote: thanks for the complements, I gave this some thought hm, I have not noticed that about the clothing but I have not seen a lot of EQ2 yet. yes, you could make several different items of clothing in WoW, not sure about a wardrobe but you could definitely have fun with it. if that's missing in EQ2 I suppose that's something that would need work, the game does need more polish. Yeah, the armor and weapons in this game need a ton of work. I'm sure you will start to notice as you level more, but essentially all the armor looks the same. There are very few different patterns and designs to each type of armor and the level 60 armor, for the most part, looks almost identical to the same armor characters can be wearing at level 10 or 20. It's a very big complaint from lots of players, myself included. I love the variety and creativity that WoW offered with their armor and weapons. I wouldn't like to see EQ2 have the same designs or anything, but if they would start making some creative looks and making some armor that didn't look so puritanical it would do a lot to add some much needed flavor to the game.The look and feel of a game matters a lot. In business they say there are three "P"s --- product, packaging, and price. You can somewhat fail with product and price and still do ok if you have packaging. quite simply people have to be grabbed by the look and feel of something (and advertizing) if they are ever going to purchase it. EQ2 just needs to work on it's packaging, not dumb itself down to WoW levels.You're very right. I wouldn't worry too much about them dumbing it down though, with the changes they really have not made it that much more like WoW. Remove of the tradeskill system will be especiallly damaging. I suppose if someone groups all the time in EQ2 they can indeed powerlevel but there isn't too much of a way to do that with the tradeskill system --- as far as I can tell at this point. simplification of the system makes attaining level 60 tradeskill less rewarding. it would be one thing if it was so painfull that people were simply generally unwilling to do this but that doesn't seem to be the case.I see lots of complaints about this, and I can somewhat understand old players that have been crafting being upset about it, I still see it as a positive change. The reason being, is that with the current system, for the average person, there is too much tedium. With the amount of combines and little things you have to make that really don't seem applicable to your chosen craft, it can be very frustrating when someone just wants to get to work making items for the craft that they like. The system is still going to be much more complex and interactive than WoW's, they are just removing a few of the more monotonous steps of the process. And also, crafting here will always be important and have a place. Unlike WoW, the items made from crafting are very useable and worth making. look at eve online -- they have a real time based learning system, when things are attained there they have some extra meaning and reward. and they have one of the strongest player bases around with a huge economy. That is true, but you also have to consider how different Eve Online is from other MMORPG's. It appeals to a different crowd for one thing and has a different style of gameplay. as for maturity of player base, that's certainly true. WoW has the most immature player base I've ever seen. the 24/7 no-DK gankage system attracts not only people who enjoy some healthy competition but also the most annoying irritating dweebs on the planet earth. Amen!

02-02-2006, 09:10 PM	#8
Nervaaz Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 28	The Archtype system was one of the unique and distinct features that seperated it from any other MMO out there. I totally agree with the original poster that it set the game apart and made it a feeling of accomplishment to get to 20 and receive your new title. For those who talk of the "monotony" all I have to ask is, "What game were you playing??" Between Test and Live servers I have 8 toons over level 20, and never found getting those characters to 20 monotonous. It only takes a couple of weeks max of very casual playing to get a toon over level 20. How can that be monotonous. You want monotonous, how about grinding hell levels in EQ1? I'm not sure that they are making the game more like WoW cuz i've never playing "that other game" ... but I do feel they are continually removing aspects of the game that gave it its uniqueness. True, some ideas that looked good on paper before the game came out didn't play out well, but I have truly NEVER heard any player in the past 6 months (and I'm online pretty much daily) complain that Newbie Island needed to be changed, or the character advancement process needed to be revamped!! It was a total non-issue. My biggest gripe with the new advancement system, however, is that it is a slap in the face to players who have been with this game from the start, and have advanced characters in all their available character slots. Unless SOE decides to surprise us with a couple of new slots (***HINT --- It would be NICE!!) then this is all so much dust in the wind to most of the long-term player base anyways. It looks GREAT .... but is less then useless to me, as I have no free slots to make a new character. __________________

02-02-2006, 07:37 PM	#1
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	wasn't exactly sure where to post this, but since it was about test and upcomming content, seemed like this is the spot I've taken this server down time to read what people are posting about changes and upcomming changes. It really does seem that collectively EQ2 is undergoing a WoW-ization or dumbing down of sorts. As someone who has come from WoW I can tell you that's not really a good thing. Two examples of the simplifications I've observed (or wowifications) are the instant class picking and the absolute and total simplification of the current tradeskill system. I'd have to say I can understand why business minds and bean counters might leap on to these changes as good things. if we make the game simpler and easier we can appeal to a larger population of customers. well, you are right about one thing, WoW is simple and it is popular. but the simplicity of WoW is not at the heart of what makes it popular. the environment is extremely alluring and very well made, it's a pleasing world to play in. more so than EQ2. it is simply a matter of polish. however, EQ2 wins out on the combat system and character models and expansiveness of the world and also you guessed it --- complexity. and that complexity makes for a depth of game which is a very good thing. the simplicity of WoW is a good thing in terms of attracting people, but it comes at a huge huge cost. some new servers were recently started up. I joined in for the fun, let me tell you what happened. in less than a week the overseas sweatshop gold farmers were level 60, in less than two weeks many regular players were level 60, in less than three weeks to a month you had end game raids starting out. That's a full complement of 10 to 60 people of varying classes getting end game equipment --- and also having endgame crafting ability in about two to three weeks. the kicker is also this --- in my time on this server every single person I met had level 60s on another server. every single person. that's not one new customer. WoW is surviving by eating it's own tail. servers are also destroyed very quickly by the numbers of sweatshop gold farmers and the huge numbers of people who are willing to pay for the gold. the economies are decimated by this. read about it here http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141815 the server lifecycle in wow is really quite short. why do people keep playing? as I said, the world is quite alluring and people roll and re-roll and then re-roll again. on different servers and the same server. also, once you do hit level 60 it's a raid game, one after another after another after another after another -- it takes a long time to get all of your endgame equipment. after that they have added a significant amount of pvp instances and games. but even that gets old. very old. when they add a new server now I would say 90% of the people there are migrants from another server. it's extremely stale. as for depth? there is very little. it means very little to have a level 60 or an endgame tradeskiller. it means nothing. I've played EQ2 for a short time but I can see it means a bit more here, and certainly so for an endgame tradeskiller. these games offer the striving of a reward and the eventual attainment of that reward --- but the value of the reward is measured in the time, energy, and effort to gain that reward and the ability of the game environment to provide enjoyment as you work your way up to the reward. After attaining tradeskill level 18 I can see that reaching 60 is really quite a thing. certainly there are other games with more distant rewards, like AO's level 220 + alien levels --- that is quite difficult unless you are one of two or so always in demand classes. but the pace of EQ2 seems really quite ... well cool. especially the class system that went from levels 1 to 20. I've never seen anything like it. it really ment something when I picked my subtype and then leveled up to my final class at 19 and then actually attained my final designation at 20. it was cool, very cool. yes it's true, I was unable to try out each and every class from the start but that's ok. why? because if I wanted to know more about other classes I would watch them, read about them, ask other people about them, and look stuff up on the net --- there is a wealth of information about almost everything there. and also because since it took time and energy to get my final designation it had more value, esentially more pleasure when I got there. Greater reward. by making instant final designations you are essentially removing a reward from the game. and make no mistake, that is why we play, reward. the same thing goes for tradeskilling, changing it is removal of reward. endgame tradeskilling will mean much much less. I'd be furious if I had a couple or a few 60 tradeskillers. if these two changes are the start of or part of a continuting pattern it really does seem like a WoWification of this game might be underway. and I can tell you that's not a good thing because you are taking away the things in this game that give it an edge over WoW. it's like a land based people choosing to fight a war with a sea based people on the water. one is giving up a prime advantage. EQ2 is the early PC comptuer as WoW is to the apple macintosh. Quite plainly WoW is a better product in terms of polish, fit, and finish, and packaging much like the Macintosh was. But I think we all remember who won that fight in the end.

02-02-2006, 08:57 PM	#5
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	thanks for the complements, I gave this some thought hm, I have not noticed that about the clothing but I have not seen a lot of EQ2 yet. yes, you could make several different items of clothing in WoW, not sure about a wardrobe but you could definitely have fun with it. if that's missing in EQ2 I suppose that's something that would need work, the game does need more polish. The look and feel of a game matters a lot. In business they say there are three "P"s --- product, packaging, and price. You can somewhat fail with product and price and still do ok if you have packaging. quite simply people have to be grabbed by the look and feel of something (and advertizing) if they are ever going to purchase it. EQ2 just needs to work on it's packaging, not dumb itself down to WoW levels. Remove of the tradeskill system will be especiallly damaging. I suppose if someone groups all the time in EQ2 they can indeed powerlevel but there isn't too much of a way to do that with the tradeskill system --- as far as I can tell at this point. simplification of the system makes attaining level 60 tradeskill less rewarding. it would be one thing if it was so painfull that people were simply generally unwilling to do this but that doesn't seem to be the case. look at eve online -- they have a real time based learning system, when things are attained there they have some extra meaning and reward. and they have one of the strongest player bases around with a huge economy. as for maturity of player base, that's certainly true. WoW has the most immature player base I've ever seen. the 24/7 no-DK gankage system attracts not only people who enjoy some healthy competition but also the most annoying irritating dweebs on the planet earth.

02-02-2006, 09:09 PM	#7
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	I agree with what you have said about WoW, basically. At the above point in your post though, i strongly disagree with you. While initially, with your first character, going through the entire archetype system seemed ok, I think for most people it is more of a hinderence and more of a tedious pain than anything. THe problem with the archetype system is that it takes you 20 levels to get to the class you intend to play. Levels 1-19 are often drastically different than how your final class selection plays 20+ and can give false impressions. If a player levels up to their 20's and discovers that the class isn't fun for them and doesn't play like they thought it would and they want to reroll, they have lost a lot of time and effort and now have to go through the same tedious process again, just to find out if the next class they choose is one they will like.Yes, people can read about classes, but reading about them and playing them is very different. It is really almost impossible for someone to know if they will like a class or not until they have sat down and spent some time playing them. By removing this archetype system, it lets players choose a class, play them early on before leveling is very time consuming and decide if they enjoy it or not. If they don't and want to reroll, they haven't lost nearly as much time and effort as they would have before, nor do they have to go through the same tedious process of playing the same generic classes again.While for you, this may be removing some sort of reward, although I honestly can't fathom how the current system is more rewarding, for the majority of players, this is a very good thing and will encourage people to more actively try different classes and it will also not do as much to turn away new players as they can jump right in and play the class they want rather than waiting 20 levels to do so. I honestly see this as an entirely positive change and think that had SOE done it this way from the start, they probably would have a larger playerbase than they do now. I can honestly say that my short experience with the archtype/subtype system from my meager levels 1-23 has been very cool. it took a while to get there and I suppose I'd be angry if I got to my final type and I was unhappy --- but I really did read up on everything before I dove into the game. it was totally fun. and finally reaching level 19 and going through the chinsy class quests and getting the weapon? totally cool. it also gave me some time in the game playing to observe and think about it more before I made my final choice. to simply log in and determine everything right away, well that will take that fun out of it. I've really never seen anything like this progression, I'd have to say it distinguished this game -- and now it's gone. as for trying out other classes? yeah, I did log into the isle of refuge as a mage and scout and so on. I actually did feel like I got a fair general idea of a class in that time. but then again I'm an experienced player who already knows metaphoricly what a pet-class is and feels like or a healer or an agile damage type character. regardless though -- it's all moot. I just want to say ya, I totally enjoyed the progression but who knows, maybe this will indeed make it more accessable and popular at the expense of losing some depth of game.

02-02-2006, 09:26 PM	#9
BigbyWo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15	Nervaaz wrote: The Archtype system was one of the unique and distinct features that seperated it from any other MMO out there. The Archetype system may be "unique", but I'm not sure it added anything to the game beyond that sense of accomplishment you feel at 20. In fact, I leveled up an Assassin to 35, and was considering rolling up a Ranger ... but decided not to simply because I had already played Predator for 20 levels. Its not that Pred was boring or monotonous, but why go through the same path? My point being that the character advancement process did not add a lot, it was ok but it did not add anything so fantastic that this new change could be considered "worse" ... more options, more variation of game play and more choices are almost always good things. __________________ -Crisspin 66 Swashbuckler/ Rhapsody 65 Warden (Traders Guild)

02-02-2006, 09:46 PM	#10
Neave Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	Nerwen wrote:I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW. I completely agree here. I really enjoy eq2 and would never leave, but the variety in armour is poor, and the appearance is definately lacking. The colours are often muddy or faded in appearance, lacking detail and are repeated ad naseum.I think for most people the game is really all about their characters, so being able to choose from a variety of colours and styles of outfit (whether or not the stats vary), as well as a large range of casual outfits for tradeskillers would be a great and welcome addition.

02-02-2006, 09:50 PM	#11
selch Lord Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Istanbul, Turkiye Posts: 1,305	Actually you can see how detailed armors are if you open specular lightning with texture resolution High but yes, a bit variety needed but for heck armors are much more detailed than WoW ones. __________________

02-02-2006, 09:55 PM	#12
MagicWand Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 128	Nerwen wrote:You do make some good points - however, there is one thing that WoW did right, that EQII (so far) has not. (Now, in all fairness, I see signs of the developers working to correct this issue, so I don't think that the situation is not being addressed. I do think it will take a while to get to the point where we should have been all along.)Specifically - WoW did items correctly, especially clothing.Now, I am not talking about style of clothing. I know that many people don't like the way that WoW graphics look, and that is fine, but that is not my topic. I am not talking about the style of clothing - I am talking about sheer, unvarnished quantity.WoW must have an amazing art department. If there are not thousands of robes, shoes, gloves, hats, and shirts, there must at least be hundreds of them. If I get a new piece of equipment, of any kind, and don't like the looks of it, it is not at all difficult to get another that I like better. Please note that, again, I am not discussing quality of gear, or uber "raid" gear, or quest pieces which are difficult to obtain. I am simply saying that in WoW, it is possible have an actual wardrobe. As a rule of thumb, no two orcs, trolls, night elves, dwarves, or anyone else look alike. I have been deeply and bitterly frustrated with the difficulty of obtaining gear in EQII - again, I am not talking about stats here, I am talking about graphics. How many mages have we seen wearing the infamous purple robe anyway?It does look like the developers are going to address this issue, or at least they are recoloring old armor sets, and adding a new fun piece or two (like the hats that will supposedly come out with the release of the new expansion.) However, they have a long way to go to equal the variety which is omnipresent in WoW. I only hope that they will not quit halfway through - this game could be amazing if only they will commit to clothing graphics, and see it through to the end!Jen If SoE had the same varity of clothing and other items that's found in WoW, EQ2 would probably take up 100+ gigabite (I am guessing but its a huge number) hard drive space. EQ2 is much more graphic intensive then WoW's tiny polygon count.

02-02-2006, 10:02 PM	#13
Xev General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	greploco wrote: I can honestly say that my short experience with the archtype/subtype system from my meager levels 1-23 has been very cool. it took a while to get there and I suppose I'd be angry if I got to my final type and I was unhappy --- but I really did read up on everything before I dove into the game. I did too, but reading and playing are very different. A lot of times, something sounds like it's what you want on paper, but when you actually play it, it isn't exactly what you thought. This hasn't been a big problem for me personally, but I know many others have had that problem.it was totally fun. and finally reaching level 19 and going through the chinsy class quests and getting the weapon? totally cool. it also gave me some time in the game playing to observe and think about it more before I made my final choice. to simply log in and determine everything right away, well that will take that fun out of it.Just curious, you said that you read up on everything before you dove into the game. If you already knew a lot about the classes and such, then why would you really need to observe the differences before making your decision? Also, while the archetype selection quests at level 9 give you an idea of what the general tone of a class is, they don't give you enough details as to how they will actually play. For example: The Qeynos fighter quest...for the warrior part, they tell you that warriors rely on their weapons to survive and have you go kill a few easy mobs. For brawlers, they tell you that brawlers rely on avoidance and using their own bodies as weapons and then have you go talk to a few NPC's. For crusaders, they tell you that crusaders fight for a cause and are the leaders in battle and have you go kill a few mobs again, but tell you it is with conviction.None of those steps actually demonstrates how each subclass will play out differently from one another. It just tells you the basic idea behind them, which most people already probably know before playing. If you have read up on the game prior to playing, then you would already have that information anyway.While it might take the fun out of the game for you, having this system removed, for the majority of players, being able to choose your class from the start and actually getting to experience it without having to level to your 20's is a very good thing. I've really never seen anything like this progression, I'd have to say it distinguished this game -- and now it's gone.I've seen similar progressions. DAOC for example, you had to choose a basic archetype and then level to 5 before you pick your final class. That is much less of a hassle than leveling to 20 to get to play the class you want, but even so, for most players there it was more of a tedious exercise that you had to do just to get into the meat of the game. as for trying out other classes? yeah, I did log into the isle of refuge as a mage and scout and so on. I actually did feel like I got a fair general idea of a class in that time. but then again I'm an experienced player who already knows metaphoricly what a pet-class is and feels like or a healer or an agile damage type character. I'm a very experienced player and from playing the classes on the isle of refuge you can get a basic idea of what each archetype is supposed to do, ie. scouts damage with fast melee attacks, casters use ranged damage, priests heal and fighters tank, but that is a very shallow bit of what your final classes will do and they end up branching off in other directions in many cases.An example would be a class such as the illusionist. You start out as a mage and learn that you will have good nukes to kill stuff. Then at 10 that totally changes with your subclass and you start to get a general idea of how your class will play out, which is very much different than how it started. Then at 20 you change again, and while it will have many similarities to its previous incarnation, it is still a big change and you finally start getting spells and abillities that define your final class and which make your final class play out much differently than before. That being the case, what is the point in spending the first 19 levels playing in a way that isn't representative of the class you are going to end up with?While there are some classes that basically stay the same throughout the entire progression, many of them do not and having your class pull a 180 on you after 20 levels is kind of annoying. I would much rather know exactly what i am getting into before wasting that much time and I would rather start out with the same types of abilities that I will be using through my career than following a generic pattern with abilities that aren't representative of the class.One other thing about the archetype system. The first time you go through it, yeah it's ok, not that big a deal, but anytime you make an alt, you have to go through the same process, even if you know exactly what you are doign and what you want to play. And for people that want to make alts of the same archetype, ie. a wizard and a warlock or other mage class, they have to go through another 19 levels of playing with the same generic archetype and same generic spells. It becomes irritating quickly to have to do all of taht over again any time you want to try a new class. regardless though -- it's all moot. I just want to say ya, I totally enjoyed the progression but who knows, maybe this will indeed make it more accessable and popular at the expense of losing some depth of game. I honestly don't see the archetype system as adding any depth. I dont' see how playing generic roles that are often not representative of your class is depth. If it is the quests leading up to all of this that you miss, i believe they have added many new quests with this update, including quests on the islands, which are now faction specific, and in my opinion, that adds more depth than the previous version right there. There are new racial quests you do once you leave the islands as well. There is still plenty of depth, they are just removing an aspect that really did little to benefit anyone and changing it to a system that will make things better and more enjoyable from the start for a large majority of people.

02-02-2006, 10:33 PM	#14
standupwookie Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 220	The only thing that EQ2 has over WOW is the "things to do" area. EQ2 has housing, guilds, a huge crafting system, and a lot of areas (though people only use about 10 zones) to utilize.WOW is by far a superior product, both in terms of technical quality and art direction. Whether or not you like that style is a moot point. The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.EQ2 fails on just about every thing that WOW did right.Now, whether or not you enjoy WOW or EQ2 is entirely up to you. I played WOW and got to the end level in about a month and thats it, nothing else to do, game over. EQ2 takes a little bit longer. No sense is paying for a game you dont play, so thats why I stopped playing WOW.After playing all of SOE's mmorpgs I think its safe to say that its the company and not really the fault of the creative people. Maybe all the real creative people just got tired of dealing with SOE (that happens) and jumped ship to other products. I dont see any real creativity in EQ2 like I saw with WOW, and I dont think I ever will.I enjoy EQ2 for what it is,

02-02-2006, 10:53 PM	#15
ValValline Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 42	standupwookie wrote:The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique. WoW has had several major changes to classes and talent trees in the past 6 months with more revamps promised to come. It may not be a total a revamp as was seen in EQ2 with LU13, but to say they haven't made similar changes is not true.

02-02-2006, 11:10 PM	#16
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	Just curious, you said that you read up on everything before you dove into the game. If you already knew a lot about the classes and such, then why would you really need to observe the differences before making your decision? I learned additional information in observing the game in action if not from my first person view then from by teaming with people and observing them in my leveling from 1 to 19 as well as talking to people ingame while I was playing. the fact is though, even if I did play my subclass right from level 1 I still wouldn't know what it's like at level 60, that's true for all mmo. I'm a very experienced player and from playing the classes on the isle of refuge you can get a basic idea of what each archetype is supposed to do, ie. scouts damage with fast melee attacks, casters use ranged damage, priests heal and fighters tank, but that is a very shallow bit of what your final classes will do and they end up branching off in other directions in many cases. Na, it still gives you a basic idea of what the future holds, and that's all you can reasonably hope for at the low levels anyway. The first time you go through it, yeah it's ok, not that big a deal, but anytime you make an alt, you have to go through the same process, even if you know exactly what you are doign and what you want to play. And for people that want to make alts of the same archetype, ie. a wizard and a warlock or other mage class, they have to go through another 19 levels of playing with the same generic archetype and same generic spells. It becomes irritating quickly to have to do all of taht over again any time you want to try a new class. well, I could believe that. but as someone else posted, and I paraphrase here -- it's not really that bad. It's point of view really. I did find it a little irritating that I couldn't try out a bunch of things before I decided, but once I had an idea of what I wanted and followed through with it I found the process enjoyable and didn't mind the earlier irritation. and as I said before, I enjoyed the reward of attaining my final class subtype and I'm sorry to see the little progression system gone from the game. It's a bean counter decision to make the game simpler and more accessable, more wow-easy like, and it's a failure of vision on the part of management -- you don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you. but that's just my 2c from seeing what I have seen.

02-02-2006, 11:12 PM	#17
Hecklerko Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 53	Many point to WoW's Talent system as a very good thing for character customization (and it is) and believe EQ2's lack of it makes character development stale. Obviously there isn't an equivalent in EQ2 but, keep in mind, EQ1 had no such thing either until SOE added Alternate Advancement. Don't be fooled into thinking no such change is in EQ2s future, SOE already has the track record (and code) for it and before WoW even existed. If/when it is put in I hope SOE doesn't make it for the 50+ chars but rather goes more with WoW's L10 availability. Some think EQ2 has too many classes while WoW has far less. That's really not true when you take WoW's Talent system into account. Each WoW class has the potential, beginning at L10, to branch off into 3 separate specialties, can you say Shadow Priest? Anyway, nice well thought out post.

02-02-2006, 11:19 PM	#18
greploco Lord Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 76	standupwookie wrote:The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique. ValValline wrote:WoW has had several major changes to classes and talent trees in the past 6 months with more revamps promised to come. It may not be a total a revamp as was seen in EQ2 with LU13, but to say they haven't made similar changes is not true. totally, there have been huge reworks. in WoW fundamental altering reworks addressing balance, role, soloability, and/or team roles have been done to about 1/3 of the classes and there are plans to do the rest as well. the only thing that the WoW devs didn't do half-baked is the game environment, it's quite a rendered beauty even if it does have lower polygon count. even if it is done comic book style, it's a well drawn comic book. the rest from choice of endgame equipment to variability of character models to class balancing to the combat systems is half to two thirds baked in the greatest traditions of mmos and will continue to be worked on.

02-02-2006, 11:28 PM	#19
Geekyone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 236	Make the first character of a new account have to do the archtype, class, subclass thing until they reach 20 once. Then they can do the start at final product thing. __________________ Kittik

02-03-2006, 12:00 AM	#20
lillin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	Well on topic of OP ..... What your saying is EQ2 is becoming similar to WoW in both character advancement as well as easy tradeskilling. Whelp guess what, WoW copied EQ1 advancement (ie pick what class at level 1) and the tradeskilling in WoW is pretty close to eq1's (find the parts ya need of mobs and such and put em together). EQ2 tried a different approach to TSing and character advancement, and it just didn't work as well as desired. Now TSing i can go either way because the long old way and the new faster way both have thier pros and cons but character advancement was pretty boring from 1 -20 the second, third, forth, fifth, six, seventh, ect.. go round. Think about it like this, you had to become level 30 before you could get a full base of class specific spells to even begin to see if you like the class. And that is fun? TSing in EQ2 i find its like playing solitaire, very boring making sub combine after sub combine after sub combine, then secondary combine two times, then you can combine your final product. Congratulations !!!! You have made one drink..... It really gets annoying when you have an order for about 10 plus stacks of that drink. So who wins keeping TSing the hard way? Two people do the people who can put up with it and make some money and the bots who go afk and cook stacks while watching tv, no work required. The new way may bring more people into crafting and therefore lower prices from underbidding but big deal. Now more people can get things done a little faster with out thinking, hmm maybe i should download a bot because i feel stupid actually doing all this for 1 drink/food/what ever. So they change the game to be like another from what ever game its trying to be this week. They saw problems with current state of game and changed it to see if its a more welcome alternative. Give it a chance, who know WoW might end up coping EQ2 one day instead of EQ1. Btw, this would probally be better posted in general gameplay forum since you were wondering.

02-03-2006, 12:02 AM	#21
Jai1 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 618	I'm kinda concerned about the future of tradeskills and the market. Call me an elistist but I like that not everyone likes to do them where as in WoW everyone has 300 in both professions plus medical and cooking by the time they hit 60. My preference isn't towards WoW but I think EQ2 has a superior market economy. I wasn't able to read the market like I can in EQ and make a profit. I also didn't like the AH. I don't think the current system is a grind. I haven't grinded since 40 when I started to deal exclusively in rares. I think rares give more experience but I have been leveling smoothly just restocking my store. I even hit 56 before I made anything in T6. I'm 58 and have a ton of discovery exp for the expansion. If I have any complaints, its for making WORTS. I'd buy them if they were reasonably priced. I cringe when I run out of liquids but it doesnt take long stopping at crude to get 40 or so. There would be big improvements if they doubled the batch. So, I will just wait it out. If it's easier to produce finished items it will be easier for everyone. Even the current crafters. I just don't want to see the market flooded and seeing people make 10% just to offload.

02-03-2006, 12:04 AM	#22
Geekyone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 236	I agree Jai1...I hate Tradeskilling and crafting cause it takes a long time of bordom (just mho). But if it is made so simple I will stop supporting the tradeskillers and crafters and start doing it myself. __________________ Kittik

02-03-2006, 12:34 AM	#23
Mathe Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 261	I wish people would stop saying taking out subcombines will make everyone be a crafter. Subcombines make it easier to level up crafting. Just the pristine bonus xp off of them gets your several levels in the final tier, the first few tiers either can be completely done or mostly done just off the pristine bonus xp. Not to mention they horribly clutter up the recipes book. Knowing 1000 recipes isn't all that impressive when only a couple dozen are actually useful.

02-03-2006, 01:05 AM	#24
TalanRM Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	No MMORG economy can support crafting if the majority of players are high level crafters. Just about everyone would know someone who is willing to make what they need for free. Crafting does not contain any quests, nor any risk, therefore it actually needs an element of grind to keep the number if crafters on a server down to a level which does not swamp the market (it takes exactly 2 crafters undercutting each other to prevent any regular sales in a tier (i.e. none legendary orders) from being not worth the effort to place items on the market). The trick is finding the balance between the element of grind and not too much grind.

02-03-2006, 01:39 AM	#25
Ultharion Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	I know the Chicken Littles in this game will always find something to gripe about with any change, so I really shouldn't be surprised to read long portents of doom like this riddled with words like "WoW" and "dumbing down", but really...1.) Class choice at first level. You're crying about this being somehow a descent to oversimplicity? This has been a staple of most class based games FOR DECADES. "WoWization" - puh-lease, you might as well call it "EQization" or "DAOCization", "Rogue-like-ization", "D&D-ization", or whatever other melodramatic, angsty, "ohnoes change is badwrongscary!!!" catch phrase you can. Yes it's different. That does not make it bad. Breathe into the paper bag and get a grip. Illusionists will have to spend their first 10 levels as illusionists, not as wizards, shadow knights will be shadow knights from the start, not warriors and paladins. This is bad? Uh huh...2.) Elimination of subcombines in crafting. People seem to be decrying this under the misperception that it will somehow make it easier to level a crafter character and make worthless all the work it's taken them to get to the 60th level as a crafter. This is absurd. It actually makes the process of levelling as a crafter more difficult, as the elimination of subcombine components means a significant reduction in first-time pristine crafting experience. It is a boon to those who are heavy crafters, as it in the end is simply a reduction in the toil they need to get to the actual stuff that sells, and is in demand by the end user. Again, the SKY IS NOT FALLING.I know I'm really just wasting my breath. Truly, by all means, continue to wail and wring your hands, and utter your laments and dire predictions. The game will continue to evolve, continue to change, and I'm sure with each step, you'll find something dire. The rest of us can just roll with the punches, take each change in turn, and evolve and adapt with the game as it grows. Message Edited by Ultharion on 02-02-200601:04 PM

02-03-2006, 01:44 AM	#26
mayhem111 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 61	I think crafting plays too much of a role in the game atm. If your a 50+ plus person pretty much everything you have is player crafted. Why go out and kill stuff? Ahh yes to get money to buy the stuff you need. Nothing that a person can get really matches up to legendary items. Having the majority of players running around in cobalt armor and weapons is just wrong if you ask me. What happened to using heritage weapons and other quest based stuff. The game is called everquest right? There really is no quest now its just farm names to get stuff you can sell to buy stuff. Everybody remembers when they finished the pgt quest or the bbc quest and got that cool weapon. No is just buy one for the tier and maybe if your lucky enough to get one on a raid (assuming your raid) or lucky enough to get one dropped your can use from an instance. And why the whining about crafters sheesh? Most crafters I know use macros to lvl thier toons. Using macros to lvl and make stuff for you to sell is just as bad as the farming botters people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about so much. Its about time that crafters got some competition. If people wouldn't charge so much for legendary items maybe people would buy more of your items and you would make more money. I know back in the day when I was lvling my first toon (swashbuckler) buying an adept 3 for anything was right out the window. No starting character has enough money to buy those things. Crafters now adays are making and baseing prices off assuming all players are twinks and they can charge whatever they want and they will still buy it. As far as the new character progression I like it alot. I played a swashbuckler (main is a 60) on test and got him to about 10th lvl. And know what he plays very close to what my 60 swash plays like. I'm going to assume that most classes are that way. So why play a class and have that class completely change after 20 lvls. You want to play a arrow shooting fool start a ranger from the get go. And the rewards you get from getting lvl 10 and 20? If maybe that is your first character yes you will use it. Otherwise its a trip to the local crafter to buy decent stuff for the tier. All in all I think eq needs to have more quest and quest based loot that is actually useful and not vendor trash to buy crafted stuff.

02-03-2006, 01:49 AM	#27
Xev General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	standupwookie wrote:The only thing that EQ2 has over WOW is the "things to do" area. That is your opinion, not necessarily a fact. EQ2 has housing, guilds, a huge crafting system, and a lot of areas (though people only use about 10 zones) to utilize.WOW is by far a superior product, both in terms of technical quality and art direction. More opinion. I think regarding art direction, many people would agree with you, it does have excellent art direction. Technical quality on the other hand, i'm really not really sure what about WoW, from a technical standpoint would be superior.Whether or not you like that style is a moot point. The thing that matters is that WOW has yet to have a combat upgrade (EQ2 has had two, SWG has had 3, and EQ1 has had 1) so that shows you they know how to plan and implement thigs. Not necessarily. Just because they don't have major combat overhauls doesn't mean that they shouldn't have them. The balance among classes in WoW is really not all that great. And for the record they have been going through each class and redoing their talent trees as well as unique abilities and such in an attempt to rebalance them because the way they were initially designed was not working out as well as their "planning" had made them think it would. WOW has yet to have a majorical graphical overhaul to make characters feel unique.EQ2 fails on just about every thing that WOW did right. Such as?Now, whether or not you enjoy WOW or EQ2 is entirely up to you. I played WOW and got to the end level in about a month and thats it, nothing else to do, game over. EQ2 takes a little bit longer. No sense is paying for a game you dont play, so thats why I stopped playing WOW.After playing all of SOE's mmorpgs I think its safe to say that its the company and not really the fault of the creative people. Maybe all the real creative people just got tired of dealing with SOE (that happens) and jumped ship to other products. I dont see any real creativity in EQ2 like I saw with WOW, and I dont think I ever will.I think that the weapons and armor in WoW are definitely far superior in terms of diversity and creativity. I also think, that generally, the WoW environments are a little more creative. Not all of them, but there are some that are very unique. The environments in EQ2 are very good, they are just presented in a more realistic manner. With KoS, it appears they are goign to be adding some more imaginitive environments and hopefully better armor and weapons will follow.I enjoy EQ2 for what it is,

02-03-2006, 01:59 AM	#28
Goejun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 87	LOL Ultharion , u are a killer. I think the OP speak about things he doesn't know or he doesn't understand... __________________ ================================================ ============= WOW is MMO for Dummies ============== ================================================ Hebon: Paladin 70 (59 AA) - Carpenter 60 Zeranok: Necromancer 57 - Wait and see

02-03-2006, 02:06 AM	#29
Xev General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	greploco wrote: I learned additional information in observing the game in action if not from my first person view then from by teaming with people and observing them in my leveling from 1 to 19 as well as talking to people ingame while I was playing. the fact is though, even if I did play my subclass right from level 1 I still wouldn't know what it's like at level 60, that's true for all mmo.Fair enough. I disagree with you on this. I really don't think that the old system was set up in a way to help you learn your character, at least not as well as starting off playing your class. But, we're entitled to have different viewpoints on it, so I can respect yours. Na, it still gives you a basic idea of what the future holds, and that's all you can reasonably hope for at the low levels anyway.It gives you an idea of how the combat system and general function of the game works, yes, but not how your future class will outside of your main role (healer, nuker, dps, tank). This update allows you to learn how your specific class will function outside of its basic archetype. well, I could believe that. but as someone else posted, and I paraphrase here -- it's not really that bad. It's point of view really. I did find it a little irritating that I couldn't try out a bunch of things before I decided, but once I had an idea of what I wanted and followed through with it I found the process enjoyable and didn't mind the earlier irritation. Well that is your personal preference and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Everyone enjoys different things. The reason it is being changed though is to accomadate the majority and to them, having to go through that process for every character or anytime they want to make an alt just to try a class has become very irritating and a deterrent for creating new characters.and as I said before, I enjoyed the reward of attaining my final class subtype and I'm sorry to see the little progression system gone from the game. It's a bean counter decision to make the game simpler and more accessable, more wow-easy like, and it's a failure of vision on the part of management -- you don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you.I agree with your statement "You don't win by being like the other guy, you win by being a better you." However, in order to improve the game, you have to be aware of what competitors are doing successfully. If people never incorporated others ideas or worked on finding ways to improve those new ideas, then there really would be no innovation and/or the process of changing a product for the better would be even slower than it is now. All in all, i see the majority of the changes that SOE is making as positive ones that will help to improve the game and help it to grow and survive in the long run. but that's just my 2c from seeing what I have seen. All of this is my opinion of course, there are different viewpoints and yours seem to be as valid as any. I can surely understand why some people would be upset by these changes if they actually enjoyed the way it has been, but I hope that I am at least presenting a decent argument for why the changes are made and how it is important to cater more to the majority than the minority in the game. All of that aside, I hope that you can still find some enjoyment from the game and that the changes wont' be as bad as you think.

02-03-2006, 02:13 AM	#30
Success Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 130	I don't see it as the WoW-ization of EQ2. I see it as taking good ideas and better gameplay ideas and replacing EQ2's flawed ones.