Experimental Death Penalty

Magic Wand · 11-18-2005, 08:46 PM

Has anybody died since the update?

What is the penalty?

Finduillas · 11-18-2005, 09:26 PM

Somebody go get killed please.

The rest of us are dying to know what the new penalty is, so one of you testers should!

Rambling Diatri · 11-18-2005, 10:24 PM

The experimantal penalty is no shard to be recovered.

As far as I could tell the exp debt didn't change, just the lack of shards.

Terabethia · 11-18-2005, 10:28 PM

Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of the new "shard recovery" NPC's that were just put in with LU16? I mean, SoE really seem to have a nack lately of adding something and 1 or 2 updates later making it useless (not that I like the idea of buying yoru shard, but I like it better than not having shards!).... :smileyhappy:

Finduillas · 11-18-2005, 10:30 PM

Hmmmm...Without a shard, what do you target in order to ressurect?

Mor · 11-18-2005, 10:36 PM

You don't resurect shards. You resurect corpses.

Wargod1968 · 11-18-2005, 11:22 PM

So if I understand this correctly:

In test, there is no shard if you decide to revive. You either wait for a ressurection (with the benefits ressurection gives), or revive and remain with the debt, as there is no shard to recover.

Is that correct?

KBern · 11-18-2005, 11:22 PM

OK so does this mean we get no stat loss at death?

No more shard recoveries at all?

Or do we get the stat penalty for a set period of time no matter what we do?

If it is choice 3, then this will really screw up raiding.

ganng · 11-18-2005, 11:25 PM

Were you killed in combat or did you die from falling/lava/drowning?

Finduillas · 11-18-2005, 11:28 PM

Morie wrote:
You don't resurect shards. You resurect corpses.

/foreheadslap.

Thanks.

Magic Wand · 11-18-2005, 11:29 PM

I expect that they'll start experimenting with debt and ability penalties. They've probably only implemented the 'no shard' code so far.

They'll probably make it so that our test toons die a lot to help them build their penalty tables. :smileytongue:

Message Edited by Magic Wand on 11-18-2005 12:32 PM

HaCkHaCkER · 11-18-2005, 11:31 PM

ok from my dying a few times it seems that the debt recieved is the same as dying and recovering a shard so anywhere between 2% to 10%

the revived sickness death penalty is still in effect when you die and it lasts for approximately 1-2 min like it used to. no other stat reduction that i noticed.

this is convienent in a way. but i do not like the idea. this means i can stealth into crazy areas get my self killed and not have to go in and recover my shard. this removes some of the idea of trying not to die. and being careful.

i liked the idea of shard recovery potions and i thought they were priced very well. made it a good choice. to either recover your shard or to pay a chunck of coin to replace it or live with the penalty of dying somewhere difficult.

Fortai · 11-18-2005, 11:39 PM

Wargod1968 wrote:

So if I understand this correctly:

In test, there is no shard if you decide to revive. You either wait for a ressurection (with the benefits ressurection gives), or revive and remain with the debt, as there is no shard to recover.

Is that correct?

No. I just tried this (many times with a lv 5 char lol). When you revive, you don't leave a shard, AND the xp debt is the same at it would be after you got your shard. So, there is no difference in the xp debt weather you are revived by a priest, or you press the revive button.

Magic Wand · 11-18-2005, 11:41 PM

HaCkHaCkER wrote:

this is convienent in a way. but i do not like the idea. this means i can stealth into crazy areas get my self killed and not have to go in and recover my shard. this removes some of the idea of trying not to die. and being careful.

What if they forced you to wear a title like '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]' for an RT hour or so?

KBern · 11-18-2005, 11:42 PM

So basically they are taking the SWG method of dying.

The only bad thing about this is people can now use this as a sort of evac in dungeons and other areas if the respawn areas are across the zone.

ChuMann · 11-18-2005, 11:45 PM

Has anyone checked on the repair prices of gear after you've died? Maybe they've taken the shard concept away, but increased the cost to repair. Maybe this will continue to discourage dying but still allow for safer travel, etc.

smckean · 11-19-2005, 12:15 AM

Is anyone else terribly afraid that this will actaully go live? Why do they keep making this freakin game EASIER!

Nekofr · 11-19-2005, 12:19 AM

Because WOW is beating the pants off of them, and when the expansion comes out, look out SOE.

KBern · 11-19-2005, 12:24 AM

smckean wrote:

Is anyone else terribly afraid that this will actaully go live? Why do they keep making this freakin game EASIER!

Yeah I am definately not in the "you must suffer to enjoy the game" crowd, but this seems a bit too easy. There are very few places that retrieving a shard is difficult and with the new shard recovery features JUST implemented....what is the point of this?

Geekyone · 11-19-2005, 12:30 AM

No one who is playing this game cares about WoW. They have all had the chance to see which game they prefer so I don't think WoW is one of the choices for this, this terrible move.

Please Please don't do this. If anything make it so not only do you still drop your shard but you drop one item from you'r non equipied stuff. Please stop making this game retardedly easy.

If you do this SOE you are telling all players that they should not worry about dieing in this game.

Whats next, no dieing at all...if you get down to zero HP's the encounter ends? Just you get no exp nor do you die.

Please go the other way with your Experimental Death Penalty, go the other way...make it more harsh.

Wli · 11-19-2005, 12:52 AM

Oh, come on, who cares about dieing in this game already ?!!

Ari · 11-19-2005, 01:20 AM

Geekyone wrote:

No one who is playing this game cares about WoW. They have all had the chance to see which game they prefer so I don't think WoW is one of the choices for this, this terrible move.

That is just not true.

I am suspect lots of people that play this game care about WoW. I like both games, have played both, and am currently playing EQ2. When the expansion for WoW comes out I might switch, might not. Depends on whether EQ2 stays fun and gets better rather than worse.

And I would be willing to bet there are people currently playing WoW thinking about jumping over this way...

That may or may not be the reasoning behind this change. But changes like this will certainly impact peoples decisions.

Yirk · 11-19-2005, 01:22 AM

Thank you Thank you Thank you! I hate the shard recovery thing. Someone always seems to die deep in Varsoon's right when I am getting ready to go to bed and then I have to spend an hour helping them get their shard back when I should be sleeping.If I knew I would not have to deal with someone's shard recovery late at night, I would feel inclined to group much more often.

ValValline · 11-19-2005, 01:28 AM

timesinks != challengeThe problem is that people (players and developers) are too quick to equate timesinks and frustrating aspects of game mechanics (eg exp debt, shard recovery) to challenge.One of the biggest debates in the history of EQ1 was the removal of spellbook medding for levels 1-35. Many players cried out that the game was being "dumbed down". Anybody with two brain cells to rub together could see how stupid and ridiculous book medding was, and no one would have ever petitioned to have it added to the game if it wasn't there at launch, but a huge number of people didn't want it removed. Only because if they had to suffer for 35 levels, then everyone else had to as well. Death in any computer game is trivial. You can't make people value their virtual lives. You can only punish or reward them. To date games have only punished to one degree or another.Punative death penalties only teach people to avoid situations where they do not have an overwhelming advantage. They will stick to safer outdoor zones and avoid pick-up groups.If I were king....I would reward players for staying alive. Possible rewards...1. Bonus EXP (vitality bonus linked to how long you go between deaths?)2. Name Suffixes (The Living, The Sturdy, Unbreakable, etc) The longer you live and the tougher the encounters you defeat the better the title.3. Bonus stats (+health, +power)4. Bonus stats to gear/items worn (less wear and tear from dieing mending)5. Small exp penalty when you do die.6. etcNone of the rewards should be "must haves", or too powerful. Rewards should be scaled to reward riskier play (dungeon crawling, grouping against ^^^mobs etc) where players will die more often. Players who solo in safe outdoor zones get less rewards for staying alive, giving them an incentives to try harder content, but not punishing them if they can't find a group or prefer to solo.Overall a reward system would encourage people to play smarter and take on tougher challenges. In effect "smarting up the game" and elevating the level of challenge players take on. Instead of the typical and cliche punative systems we have always had in these types of games.

Message Edited by ValValline on 11-18-2005 12:29 PM

eXperience25 · 11-19-2005, 01:31 AM

Uhm, this makes no sense. Why we have shard recovery buying with LU16, and removal of shards with LU17?? The game gets easier and easier... Pls remind devs that an easier Game ist not always more fun to play! eX

Message Edited by eXperience25 on 11-18-2005 09:34 PM

argsix · 11-19-2005, 01:32 AM

I may be the only one who thinks this but I'll say it anyway.

LEAVE A CORPSE BEHIND! Being 60 I already don't care if I die... I have enough money that the 15-18gold repair bill a nite is meaningless. Right now the only reason for me to care at all if I die is the stat loss if I don't go get my shard.

Remember corpse runs? I may not have liked doing it but it added danger to the game. As it stands I see a hard group and we pull it, who cares if we die.

Necro's Sk's make yourselves usefull start summoning bodies again! Was it realy that hard to invis down and loot your corpse? You died under a dragon? Grab a SK make them feal usefull again.

EDIT:

Woodworkers start making coffins! How great would it be to have a never ending demand for coffins! Maybe have coffins start as just a component in the necro/sk corpse summon spell. Make em the quality of the coffin linked to the level of the adventurors body you are trying to summon. Make a legendary version that anyone can use to summon their own bodies without a necro's help?

Message Edited by argsix on 11-18-2005 12:40 PM

Wargod1968 · 11-19-2005, 01:34 AM

Wlian wrote:
Oh, come on, who cares about dieing in this game already ?!!

Exactly. While I'm not a fan of xp loss (or de-leveling, which I think sucks), death in the game is already minimal, so why dilute it even more?

Almeric_CoS · 11-19-2005, 02:01 AM

I second the notion of being afraid of this going live in its current form. If death has no sting, then there's very little integrity left in the game.

I have to assume they aren't done yet, or there's something people aren't noticing.

Maybe repairs cost 10x more?

Maybe you lose a little vitality?

Maybe they put in a bugged implementation of the new system and tomorrow it'll be something totally different? It is test, after all SMILEY

Shantee · 11-19-2005, 02:01 AM

At 58 I died last night, and was rez'd. I incurred 2% debt instead of 1% debt. Seems there is a bit more of a penalty to me.

Geekyone · 11-19-2005, 02:11 AM

That was said with sarcasam, right?

11-18-2005, 11:22 PM	#8
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	OK so does this mean we get no stat loss at death? No more shard recoveries at all? Or do we get the stat penalty for a set period of time no matter what we do? If it is choice 3, then this will really screw up raiding. __________________

11-18-2005, 11:25 PM	#9
ganng Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 187	Were you killed in combat or did you die from falling/lava/drowning? __________________ AP:0 ALLIES:1 Opef XBL: Y! -

11-18-2005, 11:28 PM	#10
Finduillas Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	Morie wrote: You don't resurect shards. You resurect corpses. /foreheadslap. Thanks.

11-18-2005, 11:39 PM	#13
Fortai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 151	Wargod1968 wrote: So if I understand this correctly: In test, there is no shard if you decide to revive. You either wait for a ressurection (with the benefits ressurection gives), or revive and remain with the debt, as there is no shard to recover. Is that correct? No. I just tried this (many times with a lv 5 char lol). When you revive, you don't leave a shard, AND the xp debt is the same at it would be after you got your shard. So, there is no difference in the xp debt weather you are revived by a priest, or you press the revive button. __________________

11-18-2005, 11:41 PM	#14
Magic Wand Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 15	HaCkHaCkER wrote: this is convienent in a way. but i do not like the idea. this means i can stealth into crazy areas get my self killed and not have to go in and recover my shard. this removes some of the idea of trying not to die. and being careful. What if they forced you to wear a title like '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]' for an RT hour or so?

11-18-2005, 08:46 PM	#1
Magic Wand Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 15	Has anybody died since the update? What is the penalty?

11-18-2005, 09:26 PM	#2
Finduillas Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	Somebody go get killed please. The rest of us are dying to know what the new penalty is, so one of you testers should!

11-18-2005, 10:24 PM	#3
Rambling Diatri Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 53	The experimantal penalty is no shard to be recovered. As far as I could tell the exp debt didn't change, just the lack of shards.

11-18-2005, 10:28 PM	#4
Terabethia Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 256	Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of the new "shard recovery" NPC's that were just put in with LU16? I mean, SoE really seem to have a nack lately of adding something and 1 or 2 updates later making it useless (not that I like the idea of buying yoru shard, but I like it better than not having shards!).... :smileyhappy:

11-18-2005, 10:30 PM	#5
Finduillas Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 15	Hmmmm...Without a shard, what do you target in order to ressurect?

11-18-2005, 10:36 PM	#6
Mor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 344	You don't resurect shards. You resurect corpses.

11-18-2005, 11:22 PM	#7
Wargod1968 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Blood Haze Inn Posts: 457	So if I understand this correctly: In test, there is no shard if you decide to revive. You either wait for a ressurection (with the benefits ressurection gives), or revive and remain with the debt, as there is no shard to recover. Is that correct?

11-18-2005, 11:29 PM	#11
Magic Wand Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 15	I expect that they'll start experimenting with debt and ability penalties. They've probably only implemented the 'no shard' code so far. They'll probably make it so that our test toons die a lot to help them build their penalty tables. :smileytongue: Message Edited by Magic Wand on 11-18-2005 12:32 PM

11-18-2005, 11:31 PM	#12
HaCkHaCkER Tester Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: PST Posts: 172	ok from my dying a few times it seems that the debt recieved is the same as dying and recovering a shard so anywhere between 2% to 10% the revived sickness death penalty is still in effect when you die and it lasts for approximately 1-2 min like it used to. no other stat reduction that i noticed. this is convienent in a way. but i do not like the idea. this means i can stealth into crazy areas get my self killed and not have to go in and recover my shard. this removes some of the idea of trying not to die. and being careful. i liked the idea of shard recovery potions and i thought they were priced very well. made it a good choice. to either recover your shard or to pay a chunck of coin to replace it or live with the penalty of dying somewhere difficult.

11-18-2005, 11:42 PM	#15
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	So basically they are taking the SWG method of dying. The only bad thing about this is people can now use this as a sort of evac in dungeons and other areas if the respawn areas are across the zone. __________________

11-18-2005, 11:45 PM	#16
ChuMann Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 56	Has anyone checked on the repair prices of gear after you've died? Maybe they've taken the shard concept away, but increased the cost to repair. Maybe this will continue to discourage dying but still allow for safer travel, etc.

11-19-2005, 12:15 AM	#17
smckean Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 11	Is anyone else terribly afraid that this will actaully go live? Why do they keep making this freakin game EASIER! __________________ WTB: MMORPG not designed for the fleeting attention span of a 15 year old

11-19-2005, 12:19 AM	#18
Nekofr General Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6	Because WOW is beating the pants off of them, and when the expansion comes out, look out SOE.

11-19-2005, 12:24 AM	#19
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	smckean wrote: Is anyone else terribly afraid that this will actaully go live? Why do they keep making this freakin game EASIER! Yeah I am definately not in the "you must suffer to enjoy the game" crowd, but this seems a bit too easy. There are very few places that retrieving a shard is difficult and with the new shard recovery features JUST implemented....what is the point of this? __________________

11-19-2005, 12:30 AM	#20
Geekyone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 236	No one who is playing this game cares about WoW. They have all had the chance to see which game they prefer so I don't think WoW is one of the choices for this, this terrible move. Please Please don't do this. If anything make it so not only do you still drop your shard but you drop one item from you'r non equipied stuff. Please stop making this game retardedly easy. If you do this SOE you are telling all players that they should not worry about dieing in this game. Whats next, no dieing at all...if you get down to zero HP's the encounter ends? Just you get no exp nor do you die. Please go the other way with your Experimental Death Penalty, go the other way...make it more harsh. __________________ Kittik

11-19-2005, 12:52 AM	#21
Wli Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 66	Oh, come on, who cares about dieing in this game already ?!!

11-19-2005, 01:20 AM	#22
Ari Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 20	Geekyone wrote: No one who is playing this game cares about WoW. They have all had the chance to see which game they prefer so I don't think WoW is one of the choices for this, this terrible move. That is just not true. I am suspect lots of people that play this game care about WoW. I like both games, have played both, and am currently playing EQ2. When the expansion for WoW comes out I might switch, might not. Depends on whether EQ2 stays fun and gets better rather than worse. And I would be willing to bet there are people currently playing WoW thinking about jumping over this way... That may or may not be the reasoning behind this change. But changes like this will certainly impact peoples decisions.

11-19-2005, 01:22 AM	#23
Yirk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 40	Thank you Thank you Thank you! I hate the shard recovery thing. Someone always seems to die deep in Varsoon's right when I am getting ready to go to bed and then I have to spend an hour helping them get their shard back when I should be sleeping.If I knew I would not have to deal with someone's shard recovery late at night, I would feel inclined to group much more often. __________________ -------------------------------------- Tadrik Evermore Halfling Assassin on Antonia Bayle

11-19-2005, 01:28 AM	#24
ValValline Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 42	timesinks != challengeThe problem is that people (players and developers) are too quick to equate timesinks and frustrating aspects of game mechanics (eg exp debt, shard recovery) to challenge.One of the biggest debates in the history of EQ1 was the removal of spellbook medding for levels 1-35. Many players cried out that the game was being "dumbed down". Anybody with two brain cells to rub together could see how stupid and ridiculous book medding was, and no one would have ever petitioned to have it added to the game if it wasn't there at launch, but a huge number of people didn't want it removed. Only because if they had to suffer for 35 levels, then everyone else had to as well. Death in any computer game is trivial. You can't make people value their virtual lives. You can only punish or reward them. To date games have only punished to one degree or another.Punative death penalties only teach people to avoid situations where they do not have an overwhelming advantage. They will stick to safer outdoor zones and avoid pick-up groups.If I were king....I would reward players for staying alive. Possible rewards...1. Bonus EXP (vitality bonus linked to how long you go between deaths?)2. Name Suffixes (The Living, The Sturdy, Unbreakable, etc) The longer you live and the tougher the encounters you defeat the better the title.3. Bonus stats (+health, +power)4. Bonus stats to gear/items worn (less wear and tear from dieing mending)5. Small exp penalty when you do die.6. etcNone of the rewards should be "must haves", or too powerful. Rewards should be scaled to reward riskier play (dungeon crawling, grouping against ^^^mobs etc) where players will die more often. Players who solo in safe outdoor zones get less rewards for staying alive, giving them an incentives to try harder content, but not punishing them if they can't find a group or prefer to solo.Overall a reward system would encourage people to play smarter and take on tougher challenges. In effect "smarting up the game" and elevating the level of challenge players take on. Instead of the typical and cliche punative systems we have always had in these types of games. Message Edited by ValValline on 11-18-2005 12:29 PM

11-19-2005, 01:31 AM	#25
eXperience25 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 41	Uhm, this makes no sense. Why we have shard recovery buying with LU16, and removal of shards with LU17?? The game gets easier and easier... Pls remind devs that an easier Game ist not always more fun to play! eX Message Edited by eXperience25 on 11-18-2005 09:34 PM

11-19-2005, 01:32 AM	#26
argsix Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	I may be the only one who thinks this but I'll say it anyway. LEAVE A CORPSE BEHIND! Being 60 I already don't care if I die... I have enough money that the 15-18gold repair bill a nite is meaningless. Right now the only reason for me to care at all if I die is the stat loss if I don't go get my shard. Remember corpse runs? I may not have liked doing it but it added danger to the game. As it stands I see a hard group and we pull it, who cares if we die. Necro's Sk's make yourselves usefull start summoning bodies again! Was it realy that hard to invis down and loot your corpse? You died under a dragon? Grab a SK make them feal usefull again. EDIT: Woodworkers start making coffins! How great would it be to have a never ending demand for coffins! Maybe have coffins start as just a component in the necro/sk corpse summon spell. Make em the quality of the coffin linked to the level of the adventurors body you are trying to summon. Make a legendary version that anyone can use to summon their own bodies without a necro's help? Message Edited by argsix on 11-18-2005 12:40 PM __________________

11-19-2005, 01:34 AM	#27
Wargod1968 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Blood Haze Inn Posts: 457	Wlian wrote: Oh, come on, who cares about dieing in this game already ?!! Exactly. While I'm not a fan of xp loss (or de-leveling, which I think sucks), death in the game is already minimal, so why dilute it even more?

11-19-2005, 02:01 AM	#28
Almeric_CoS The L.G. Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 381	I second the notion of being afraid of this going live in its current form. If death has no sting, then there's very little integrity left in the game. I have to assume they aren't done yet, or there's something people aren't noticing. Maybe repairs cost 10x more? Maybe you lose a little vitality? Maybe they put in a bugged implementation of the new system and tomorrow it'll be something totally different? It is test, after all __________________ Almeric's Blog: He doesn't know the meaning of the word "concise!"

11-19-2005, 02:01 AM	#29
Shantee Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Test Server Posts: 138	At 58 I died last night, and was rez'd. I incurred 2% debt instead of 1% debt. Seems there is a bit more of a penalty to me. __________________ Chii 60 Monk ~ Test Server Kaida 50 Defiler Semi Retired ~ Test Server

11-19-2005, 02:11 AM	#30
Geekyone Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 236	That was said with sarcasam, right? __________________ Kittik