Just before it goes live, nerf the necros

[armus5]

You couldn't get it to work so no corpse summoning. I realize you're trying to compensate but I just don't see it, especially when you go and nerf the pets again. Longer range means nothing - we need real utility and dps. I'm tired of listening to wizards say that even after the change, necros are nothing but under powered wizards. They make it seem as though I chose the wrong class and wasted 9 months playing it. I pull agro in raids just to show I am there and I am doing damage while the nukers twitch. Necros need their pride back.

 

Armus, 50 Necro on Innothule

and a crap load of alts

and yes, a few are on Test

Message Edited by armus550 on 09-12-2005 10:24 PM

[borw]

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight!!!

 

Give our pets mitigation back where the tank pet will be worth a crap.

Un-nerf the Defensive stance buff or at least add something worthwhile instead of a HP buff since that buff wont help us heal the pet any better. Ideas would be:

1 Put back the Heal over time component in the buffs.

2 Increase the amount of ward and hp tap.

I would like to see some quest pets for the summoners that we can use instead of our own pets.

1 For the necro pet it could be a raise dead spell that will animate the last npc we killed and give it a ghost skin.

2 For the conjurers it could be an npc summoning spell that would summon a random npc in the zone and make him into a pet.

Also drop pets would be nice - A good spectre or vampire pet would go a long way. <---- Let these pets have special procs on them such as lifetap for the vampire and a stregth drain for the spectre.

Our heals need to be looked at and made more efficient because we are literally killing ourselves trying to keep our pet up or allow Necros to get lower tier lich spells as they progress. You could give us back our ghost form as one of these lower tier lich spells.

If your concerned about soloing heroics then perhaps you guys need to add mitigation back into their stats and then allow them to regenerate their own life so that a person couldnt kill them solo but they would need more than one in order to outdamage the regen.

[Suraklin]

---

borwin wrote:

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight!!!

 

Give our pets mitigation back where the tank pet will be worth a crap.

Un-nerf the Defensive stance buff or at least add something worthwhile instead of a HP buff since that buff wont help us heal the pet any better. Ideas would be:

1 Put back the Heal over time component in the buffs.

2 Increase the amount of ward and hp tap.

I would like to see some quest pets for the summoners that we can use instead of our own pets.

1 For the necro pet it could be a raise dead spell that will animate the last npc we killed and give it a ghost skin.

2 For the conjurers it could be an npc summoning spell that would summon a random npc in the zone and make him into a pet.

Also drop pets would be nice - A good spectre or vampire pet would go a long way. <---- Let these pets have special procs on them such as lifetap for the vampire and a stregth drain for the spectre.

Our heals need to be looked at and made more efficient because we are literally killing ourselves trying to keep our pet up or allow Necros to get lower tier lich spells as they progress. You could give us back our ghost form as one of these lower tier lich spells.

If your concerned about soloing heroics then perhaps you guys need to add mitigation back into their stats and then allow them to regenerate their own life so that a person couldnt kill them solo but they would need more than one in order to outdamage the regen.

---

Maybe they should fire Moorguard and Blackguard and hire you to the Development team. Good ideas.

[BigRedWo]

---

borwin wrote:

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight!!!

 

Give our pets mitigation back where the tank pet will be worth a crap.

Un-nerf the Defensive stance buff or at least add something worthwhile instead of a HP buff since that buff wont help us heal the pet any better. Ideas would be:

1 Put back the Heal over time component in the buffs.

2 Increase the amount of ward and hp tap.

I would like to see some quest pets for the summoners that we can use instead of our own pets.

1 For the necro pet it could be a raise dead spell that will animate the last npc we killed and give it a ghost skin.

2 For the conjurers it could be an npc summoning spell that would summon a random npc in the zone and make him into a pet.

Also drop pets would be nice - A good spectre or vampire pet would go a long way. <---- Let these pets have special procs on them such as lifetap for the vampire and a stregth drain for the spectre.

Our heals need to be looked at and made more efficient because we are literally killing ourselves trying to keep our pet up or allow Necros to get lower tier lich spells as they progress. You could give us back our ghost form as one of these lower tier lich spells.

If your concerned about soloing heroics then perhaps you guys need to add mitigation back into their stats and then allow them to regenerate their own life so that a person couldnt kill them solo but they would need more than one in order to outdamage the regen.

---

I like the way you think.

[Corasik]

The issue with pets wasnt just about soloing heroics. It was too easy for groups of casters+priests to do heroic zones, without even bothering to look for any kind of fighter class to tank. Why bother the pet was a better tank.

Its worse than that though, from a fighers point of view. Why would anyone want a fighters low DPS and low utility, when they could have a couple of pet classes. Dump the fighter, and add a pet class, was almost as good as having a 7 person group.

[Prufro]

I think you guys should be glad your pets don't completely suck.  In most MMOs the pet is a utility of the class, and helps, but doesn't define it, and definitely doesn't overpower. Why do you want it changed?  So you can solo the whole game, or become the new raid maintank?  Do you hate fighters for some reason so you never want them protecting you? Is there any reason a pet class should be more effective at soloing than any other class?  A pet isn't another player, it's just a utility spell you have.

[jordaann]

I can see both sides of this: On one hand you have summoners that a good portion of their dps is attributed to their pets (nerf the pets and you significantly nerf the class. On the other you have fighters that get dumped because why would any group want a fighter that can only tank when they can have a mage that has the option of being dps or providing a tank. IMO pets should have some mitagation but more along the lines of scout classes or some other method of making them work in a pinch but not an easy replacement for a fighter.

[Proudfoot]

---

Corasik wrote:

The issue with pets wasnt just about soloing heroics. It was too easy for groups of casters+priests to do heroic zones, without even bothering to look for any kind of fighter class to tank. Why bother the pet was a better tank.

Its worse than that though, from a fighers point of view. Why would anyone want a fighters low DPS and low utility, when they could have a couple of pet classes. Dump the fighter, and add a pet class, was almost as good as having a 7 person group.

---

So ya, according to you there would be 4,330 Pet classes b/c they solo so much better. Of course, you're wrong in that kind of reasoning. Yea, a group of casters could take down heroics. You have a problem with someone else wanting to have fun in this game without a body guard? Pathetic. Truely. Tanks are a playstyle for some. Wizards are another. Pet class is just another playstyle that should not be removed because of any envy. That's a sin ya know, envy.

[borw]

Yeah that guy has some serious issues..

I mean what makes you think your so special since your a tank?

What makes you think that your profession should be so needed when most of the professions in the game arent needed and that includes conjurers and necros.

Do you think that your so special that you have to be needed in order to have fun?

Oh and about soloing heroics its all fine and dandy to try and take the moral high ground here but how long have tanks been soloing Heroics on live while conjurers and necros have been relegated to the least useful role in a group situation?

I guess this revamp just gave us more of the same that we have been putting up with ever since eq2 came out.

Tanks are required while summoner professions deal substandard dps and have even less utility.. <------ So who needs them?

[Mephli]

Yea, god forbid that a summoner class is sought out like a tank or healer. 

 

[JuJut]

---

Mephlich wrote:

Yea, god forbid that a summoner class is sought out like a tank or healer. 

---

So after pets that can tank like a fighter you'll want pets that can heal like a priest?

[borw]

---

JuJutsu wrote:

---

Mephlich wrote:

Yea, god forbid that a summoner class is sought out like a tank or healer. 

---

So after pets that can tank like a fighter you'll want pets that can heal like a priest?

---

Einstein, who said they wanted pets to tank as well as fighters?

We want our fighter pets to at least act like they are supposed to be and be able to tank solo con npc's.

In order for that to happen then mitigation needs to be fixed for them or make our heals more efficient than they currently are but no you are probably a troll who has envy towards everybody else but himself and cant stand that somebody besides himself SHOULD have a fun time playing what they want to play.

Besides this thread isnt about your profession so go bugger off into some fighter forum and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and moan about your profession their or start a thread about fighters and express your opinion in it.

[kreli]

I had a pet that could almost tank like a fighter because at level 50 I nuked like a level 30 wizard. If pets now suck and my spells aren't near wizards then Necros are useless... solo or grouped...

[JuJut]

---

borwin wrote:

Einstein, who said they wanted pets to tank as well as fighters?

---

Hmm who was it that wrote this?

"Tanks are required while summoner professions deal substandard dps and have even less utility.. <------ So who needs them?"

Pretty clear where the 'class envy' resides isn't it?

When the thread changed from 'fix my pet' to 'its fine to replace pc tanks with pets' it quit being just a necro thread.

[Jor]

Arg double post sorry

 

Message Edited by Jorun on 09-15-2005 12:35 PM

[Jor]

Arg triple post sorry

Message Edited by Jorun on 09-15-2005 12:36 PM

[Jor]

Back to the subject gentleman !

I choose conjurer, after trying various other activities, because I wanted a class that could solo and was relatively balanced. (Yeah, yeah, spare me the 'MMO is for group only' part, please !).

Before the patch I had a class that dealt ridiculous damage by itself, but had some utility, plus for solo, a *micro* group by itself (could tank a little and heal tank a little).

Of course our group value was nowhere what our wiz / warlock brothers is !

Now :

- My overall reaction to LU13 is positive : many small changes on the game, interface, etc..

- But I don't know where I stand DPSwise

- I'm not sure I retain as much utility

- My tank pet is largely better a keeping agro, but can't keep alive.

I feel that the tank pet mitigation nerf was a bit violent. That he doesn't do much damage is okay. But against on a one against one fight against a  '1 or 2 con down' equal level mob, he should hold damage quite well.

Plus that renders our pet heals as utterly useless. Without mitigation, pet looses massive heal, and no small healing can help that.

Tested adIII air & fire against low con mobs.. They die

I heard that a few days before LU13 Moorgard managed tu duo heroics with necro and then decided they should adjust it (necro with full fabled and master ?) And I feel that this last minute change that was done is too extreme.. Changing what was perceived as too much mitigation into... 0 ?  Adjusting doesn't mean breaking it to nothing ;b There's surely a wiser middle point ?

Of course Tank Pet shouldn't be able to tank as well as a real Tank. (That's sooo obvious !?!) Still don't destroy the nice solo ability of our class by nerfing them like that. A tank pet should be able to tank better, or there's no point to summoner classes ! And  

All things being equals, we're very *far* *far* away DPS wise from our wiz / warlock cousins. a 300dmg max DD spell at level 50 anyone ? Even my guildmaster fury can deal 1000 with her arts/spells... Besides much of our damage comes from very fragile sources (pets get kill fast against strong oponent.. bye bye swarm pets... bye bye DPS). So it's only fair that we should retain some better solo value !

So either summoners are a real and equal class and should have a place, which means either raises them as n°1 DPS as wiz / warlock, or let them have a better tank pet to improve solo aspect, meaning that players can choose, as a mage, whether they want to shine as DPS dealers, or as excellent soloers.

Howeverwise we're just gadget magicians with a toy pet..

Well averall I appreciate the work done by SOE, it's not a 'trash LU13 reply'

My 2 cents ;b

** Please mister tank, look at what pet tank are now before counter-arguing a legitimate plea from another class. It's not constructive and mis-informed to act such ! We're all here to enjoy the game. And yes it's legitimate that tank classes remains far above all other classes on tanking ability. No summoner asked otherwise **

Message Edited by Jorun on 09-15-2005 12:40 PM

[JuJut]

---

Jorun wrote:

** Please mister tank, look at what pet tank are now before counter-arguing a legitimate plea from another class. It's not constructive and mis-informed to act such ! We're all here to enjoy the game. And yes it's legitimate that tank classes remains far above all other classes on tanking ability. No summoner asked otherwise **

Message Edited by Jorun on 09-15-2005 12:40 PM

---

In addition to a monk, I also play both a necro and a summoner. I wholeheartedly agree that summoner pets need fixed.

[armus5]

Since going live I'll tell ya what I've found: we're a little better but still have no respect.

I can hit pretty fair and with lich I do well. DPS is inconsistent though as parsing gives me everything from 150 to 500, and I'm casting the same each time and no spells are being resisted by the test mobs.

Soloing? As a lvl 50 necro I found a way to solo a 46^^^. I'm not going to post it cause you'll just nerf it. The tank pet can't do it - he gets wasted. But, and I may be confused here, I cannot solo a lvl50^^. These don't say heroic on them so are they solo mobs? If so they cream my pet.

And the no heal buff sucks. Not only does it reduce what we can solo but it makes for long delays between solos. Our pet heal is very small (mine's adept3) and you can't exchange life more than a couple of times, especially using lich.

As for desireability, that's what we all want. Warlocks/Wiz's have it - they are major dps. Chanters have it - mez and breeze are wonderful. Necros - hmmm, well, we can rez in combat. And don't get me wrong, that's nice, but it won't make someone pick us for a group over any other class.

I pose this question, with all these changes can we finally be considered DPS?

I'm hoping previous reservations will subside and people will want to group with us again.

 

Perhaps this belongs in the necro forum, but several spells also take too long to be effective. So far I haven't been in a fight that's lasted more than about 25 seconds. We haven't fought anything above the 54^^^s but even they go down quick. (hit hard, but with everyone's high dps, few hp) I cast rats and stench first and stench especially seems to take forever to do damage. I cast our snare, dot, siphon and skin rot. This seems like alot but it takes less than 12 sec to go through it. I might recast a few but usually, its dead by then. This is not due to me of course, it's a group effort. But in this short amount of time, stench and the rats barly get going. I liked the old stench and wish it were tweaked.

Message Edited by armus550 on 09-15-2005 08:13 AM

[Vodr]

I feel as if the EQ2 necro pet is turning into the EQ1 necro pet.  In EQ1 I have a 65 necro and with my best warrior pet he cannot survive more than 3-4 hits from any blue conned mob.  However things are different in EQ1 in the fact I can fear and kite the opponent taking the damage from my pet.

 

Now our pets do take alot more damage faster however I cannot say with my level 33 necro that it is too weak as of yet since I was able to solo 5 double down arrow yellow fairy mobs the other day.  There have been changes and yes there is much more downtime now than ever.

 

The part I didn't appreciate however is the DOT changes,  I now cannot use grayed out DOT's which helped squeak out more damage,  and some of my DOT's are aparently in the same line and I cannot stack them (beguiling earth and something else if I recall)

 

Necro's have always been the "in it for the long run fighters" in the fact our dots stacked were powerfull and did much damage and within any fight over 1 minute long we would prevail with our damage dealing abilities.  This made us sought after for raids which was quite refreshing.  We are not other classes,  our pets are not tanks however they are our personal shield that saves us from time to time.

 

Fighting the past few days I have almost lost my pet a few times and was unable to heal him during a fight.  The loss of a pet has to be understood by other classes as pretty much guarentee'd death to a necro,  it would be like a paladin that could't heal or a wizard that could no longer root.  We now have a snare which is neat,  and fear which is neat however damage breaks them everytime.  While in combat you are slowed so the purpose of a snare is what,  make them run about as slow as you?

 

With how the balance is now my felow necro's are having a much harder time,  but as are most classes.  I really think though that the developers really need to look at the necro and decide,  shall it be a eq1 or a eq2 necro and if we are to be a eq1 necro then our snares need to survive being attacked,  and we need to be able to move during combat so we can kite again.  If we are to be a eq2 necro then we need a bit more mitigation for out pets wether it be a spell buff or directly to the pets themselves.

 

Also to note I recall hearing upgrading your spells makes them that much better,  at level 33 we get a chains of something spell and going from app1 to adept1 gave it about 2 more damage total.

 

Dev's please help and review the necro,  and when you look at the revamp of them please bring in non professional players to test it with because alot of us are average joes.

[Nosewar]

---

Vodroc wrote:

I feel as if the EQ2 necro pet is turning into the EQ1 necro pet.  In EQ1 I have a 65 necro and with my best warrior pet he cannot survive more than 3-4 hits from any blue conned mob.  However things are different in EQ1 in the fact I can fear and kite the opponent taking the damage from my pet.

 

Now our pets do take alot more damage faster however I cannot say with my level 33 necro that it is too weak as of yet since I was able to solo 5 double down arrow yellow fairy mobs the other day.  There have been changes and yes there is much more downtime now than ever.

 

The part I didn't appreciate however is the DOT changes,  I now cannot use grayed out DOT's which helped squeak out more damage,  and some of my DOT's are aparently in the same line and I cannot stack them (beguiling earth and something else if I recall)

 

Necro's have always been the "in it for the long run fighters" in the fact our dots stacked were powerfull and did much damage and within any fight over 1 minute long we would prevail with our damage dealing abilities.  This made us sought after for raids which was quite refreshing.  We are not other classes,  our pets are not tanks however they are our personal shield that saves us from time to time.

 

Fighting the past few days I have almost lost my pet a few times and was unable to heal him during a fight.  The loss of a pet has to be understood by other classes as pretty much guarentee'd death to a necro,  it would be like a paladin that could't heal or a wizard that could no longer root.  We now have a snare which is neat,  and fear which is neat however damage breaks them everytime.  While in combat you are slowed so the purpose of a snare is what,  make them run about as slow as you?

 

With how the balance is now my felow necro's are having a much harder time,  but as are most classes.  I really think though that the developers really need to look at the necro and decide,  shall it be a eq1 or a eq2 necro and if we are to be a eq1 necro then our snares need to survive being attacked,  and we need to be able to move during combat so we can kite again.  If we are to be a eq2 necro then we need a bit more mitigation for out pets wether it be a spell buff or directly to the pets themselves.

 

Also to note I recall hearing upgrading your spells makes them that much better,  at level 33 we get a chains of something spell and going from app1 to adept1 gave it about 2 more damage total.

 

Dev's please help and review the necro,  and when you look at the revamp of them please bring in non professional players to test it with because alot of us are average joes.

---

You have got to be kidding me. Necros in EQ1 are godly uber and one of only two classes that can effectively solo (druids the other -- not counting bards because DoT train kiting takes [Removed for Content] forever). Yet guess what, even there they've done nothing but complain about their class since 1999, despite virtually every other class complaining about necro superiority, and classes like rangers, paladins, and sks being completely gimped for many years and undesirable from 25 to the end game.

Give necros res, two pets, mez, and wizard nukes and we'll still hear complaints that they can't buff like shamen. ROFL

[armus5]

I just had to post this. Wizards and Rangers are out there soloing lvl60^^^s. No joke. When our [Removed for Content] root breaks on just about anything, they are still soloing like gods. The best I've found is I can spam roots and snares on blue ^^^s and eventually kill them. The pet, is useless in this respect. As is our stun now. And I still can't figure out if Stench of the grave does anything. So far it parses 0 dps.

[Vodr]

Nosewarts the only way a necro in EQ1 can solo is to kite,  and without a sow potion or 100k mount you cannot.  I don't know if you ever played a necro in EQ1 however last I played mine (about a year ago) at level 65 the pet would die in 3-4 hits from any mob in the planes.  The pet basically amounted to a DoT that ran behind the mob beating them lol.  Any class with damage over time spells had this same way to level including druids,  bards,  etc.  Now Beast Lords when I last played were overpowered where the BL and pet could tank 2 different mobs at the same time.

Wizards could also solo there effectivly,  as well as clerics believe it or not it really depended on how you played your character.  Though necro was easy with darkness,  pet,  dot,  run,  dot,  dot,  run,  dot,  nuke,  darkness,  dot,  dot,  dead if I recall lol.

[Lich_Ekil]

Sorry slick, my necro soloed over 1k AA and to 70 and never used SoW potions.  Necros in EQ1 are gods.  Sounds like you just suck as a necro there and should of rerolled at lvl2.

 

Anyway, pet mitigation here need to be addressed.

 

Morgorath

42 Iksar Necromancer

Nejena

[Suraklin]

---

Lich_Ekilam wrote:

Sorry slick, my necro soloed over 1k AA and to 70 and never used SoW potions.  Necros in EQ1 are gods.  Sounds like you just suck as a necro there and should of rerolled at lvl2.

 

Anyway, pet mitigation here need to be addressed.

 

Morgorath

42 Iksar Necromancer

Nejena

---

They addressed pet mitigation here somewhat. pet will now mitigate dmg from a mob up to a blue con. It's a start atleast. I hope they'll let it eventually mitigate up to a yellow con or atleast a white con.

[AbsentmindedMage]

I am a conjurer.  I am happy with the current setup for pets.  They are not overpowerful but they are balanced enough that I can take on soloable encounters with relative ease.  Using the buffs and proper strategy it is possible to take on soloable encounter a number of levels above you. As far as necromancers are concerned, I am of the opinion they are already powerful enough.  I have witnessed necromancers take on heroic ^ encounters of their own level which is something I thought the combat revamp was suppose to address with all classes.  I think they should be brought down some to come in line with conjurers.  In otherwords, it is my opinon that in no way has necros been nerfed.  In fact, with the variety of pets and the ability to revive group members they are an army of one.

[BigRedWo]

I play a Conjuror.  I've been able to take non-casting mobs that are ^^ and even to my level.  Now, it's a hard fight, and usually my pet is close to death, but it's a rush!  I'm not too happy with our lame heal, but with the pet buffs it does tend to even out.

[AbsentmindedMage]

Couple my above statements with the fact that necromancers have the ability to feign death and resurrect group members, I can hardly feel sorry for necromancers. Yes, conjurers can do ^ and maybe ^^  but  I havent seen any conjurer's soloing heroics.  I have seen a necromancer 55 soloing 2 55 coin heroics. In fact, this is what i saw.  Necromancer approaches roots one of the heroics.  sends pet at the other. uses swarm spell. kills first heroic. pet dies. goes over re-roots second heroic. makes new pet. sends pet to kill second heroic. sends in swarm pets. kills second heroic. fiegns death. lvl 65 Sha'ir swoops in to kill pet.  necromancer stands up after sha'ir leaves. necromancer starts killing more.  You guys are not nerfed.

[KBern]

---

AbsentmindedMage wrote:
I am a conjurer.  I am happy with the current setup for pets.  They are not overpowerful but they are balanced enough that I can take on soloable encounters with relative ease.  Using the buffs and proper strategy it is possible to take on soloable encounter a number of levels above you.

As far as necromancers are concerned, I am of the opinion they are already powerful enough.  I have witnessed necromancers take on heroic ^ encounters of their own level which is something I thought the combat revamp was suppose to address with all classes.  I think they should be brought down some to come in line with conjurers.  In otherwords, it is my opinon that in no way has necros been nerfed.  In fact, with the variety of pets and the ability to revive group members they are an army of one.

---

As a conjuror you can do whatever a necro can do solo wise and be as successful.  Necros swarms are not pets, just like your aqueous hunters are not pets.

They are simply virtual representations of a dot...a graphics for looks.  They are worse than some dots with how fast they die unless you cast them from behind the mob.

Conjurors have better pet mitigation buffs than necros. 

Necros use their own health to heal, you use power.  Necros can potentially kill themselves if they are behind the curve on pet healing and cannot tap enough health back.

We have FD, that can be used one time every 15 minutes....you all have a ward/agro reducer.

I have seen conjurors solo heroics just like other casters, some scouts, some fighters and some priests.

It all depends on the player, their spell/power upgrades, and their gear.

[Soul Crusher]

I help not but smile as i read these posts on everybody complaining that necromancers wsuck and they cant solo anything...

ROFL this is hilarious i have a small difficulty Soloing 4 group regular HEROIC's and about the same difficulty soloing a group of 3 ^ heroics
ITS so easy to just play and beat them, i can solo them and when im with my healer friend we blow through them at a good speed, its not that your class is broken its you just SUCK putting it bluntly

ALTHOUGH i do agree pet mitigation is too low and needs to be put to atleast that of Light armor or medium
and our heals are FINE adept 3 exchange life is at adept 3 about 750 HP heal with Siphon healing a good 400-500ish plus with lich its adds about 70 or so hp heal to all your spells

and they will fix our rez just give them time we arent the only class in the game

Just learn how to play you people are hilarious

*SIDENOTE* all healers and tanks and scout class do not post on a  mage thread and bash us, you  have no right  complain about  another class, complain about yours, all that shows is  your childishness and ignorance

Message Edited by Soul Crusher on 09-23-2005 06:01 PM