Enchanter and concentration slots – imbalance intended?

[zit]

First off i d like to say that i think to give concentration slots more value and force ppl to make choices which spells and buffs to use in what situation seems a good concept. It also will make it more valueable to have 2 members of the same class in one group.

However there arise situations that seem to lack a bit of logic and cause problems and / or imbalance for enchanters.

I will try to explain why this is the case (I will mostly have illusionist and warlock class in mind as these are the classes I know best). As there is still some tweaking going on on test not all my informations on spell changes might be fully up to date and maybe the problems got addressed already. If not, I d request the Devs to take the following into consideration:

 

1.Concentration slots and soloing.

Mages like other classes get a “solo stance” (Magis Shielding) that increases defense. This buff takes up 3 concentration slots and should provide a bit of protection. It effectiveness of course is far from making a mage able to tank and thus solo tactics for mages will always rely on keeping the mob away from the caster and try to kill the mob fast while its rooted, stunned or busy with pet.

While root and stuns in summary are more or less even between illusionist and warlock, damage is not. That means illusionist have to keep the mob away for longer time than a warlock has to. General understanding was that for this purpose enchanter get a pet (charmed / summoned) which keeps the mob occupied for a bit and adds some additionial damage.

The problem now is that the enchanter pet also takes up 3 concentration slots. Which means that we have to give up our “solo stance” to be able to utilize the pet, a tool that should help us reduce risk when soloing.

Its similar situation for summoner although not that extreme. They can use their solo stance in combination with pet, but will have to give up buff slots and enhancing their pet.

So while summoner have to decide between defensive stance for themselves or more buffs for their pet and while enchanter have to decide beteween defensive for themselves or no pet at all, sorcerer don’t have to trade off anything for their dps. They can use their “solo stance” without any impact.

I dunno how to solve this imbalance. But the least that needs to get changed IMO is that enchanter should be able to use Magis Shielding at same time as charmed / summoned pet. Easiest to obtain this would be to change pet to only require two concentration slots.

 

2.Concentration slots and enhancing group.

Now this is a more complex problem as it goes to the roots of the enchanter class.

I will start with a famous quote from Moorgard regarding enchanter dps.

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Moorgard wrote:

Every class will have its damage adjusted as part of our overall changes to the combat system. We're not giving a specific date for this yet.

Enchanters should be able to solo effectively, but keep in mind that Illusionists and Coercers really shine when they're in a group. Of all the mages, they have the most group-oriented capabilities, not only for crowd control but also for enhancing the abilities of their group mates. It's the nature of the class that a lot of the damage potential of Enchanters comes from the allies they buff."

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As we all know sorcerer are put in top tier of SOE’s damage pyramide, enchanter are 2 tiers lower, in the middle of the pyramid. Which sounds ok with respect to the above quote.

Enchanter get advantage in crowd control and trade of dps, seems fair (considering the heavy nerf on mez and other crowd control tools I would say, its not worth to trade off too much dps for it though). We also get enhancing abilities and can buff our allies and we trade off a good junk of dps for it, very fair.

But now come 2 factors into play which make this concept very questionable.

• The one is that the equation: “enchanter having more enhancing abilities = justifies less direct dps” is only correct if enchanter class actually gets more enhancing abilities.

• The other is: if enhancing abilities cannot be used (cause of limited concentration slots for expample) the value of enhancing abilities compared to direct dps will drop siginficantly.

Or with other words the questions are:

• Do have enchanter more enhancing abilities than sorcerer?
• Do have enchanter better enhancing abilities than sorcerer?
• Can enchanter utilize more enhancing abilities?

The anwer to the first question is no. Illusionist and warlock get same amount of buffs and enhancing spells.

The answer to the second question is argueable and will depend on group setup and situation and personal preference. If any, the advantage of enchanter is very minimal and tied to power regen only.

The answer to the third question is no. Both classes are limited by concentration slots.

 

I invite everyone to look up warlock and illusionist forums and inspect spell screenshots there. You will realize that the buffing / enhancing abilities of the two classes are almost identical.

But if enchanter abilities to enhance group are not significantly better than these abilities of sorcerer what does justify significantly lower dps?? Mez – drop one tier in dps? Breeze - drop one more tier in dps? Seems a bit harsh to me.

Sorcerer outperform enchanter in direct dps. Enchanter should be able to outperform sorcerer in enhancing the group. But as the quality of sorcerer and enchanter enhancing abilities is almost equal, the only way that enchanter could still perform better would be if they could buff more group members. Which they cannot as limited concentration slots prevent this.

Again I dunno how to solve this imbalance. Give enchanter group buffs instead of single target? Don’t charge them con slots? Or give them more con slots available?

 

I am aware that enchanter are not the only class that is affected by this. It just happens that I play this class so I can only speak for illusionist.

If this problem has not been addressed yet I would ask to look into it and consider that some classes rely more on con slots and enhancing abilities than other classes and that this has to be taken into account when balancing classes.

[seamo]

Zitha , You speak very well for the Illusionist class .

I happen to have the same questions and doubts regarding the concentration slots and  utilities .

 

Personally i feel this is a very serious issue and if not dealt with we will be right back to where we are now .

 

There those on test who feel we do just fine , but then they are so use to playing the worst class in this game so any improvement would seem like they won the lotto .

 

This issue also effects our sister class the Coercers .

 

 

Sea

 

 

[enc]

nice post i must say.

I'll add something: Many people take for granted the fact that enchanters DO HAVE better buffing abilities. But the only thing they know is haste and breeze.They dont think about procing buffs, resists, etc...      

When you really take a look at the buff spells. In reality, illusionnists seem to really get an advantage only with breeze though.

[SunT]

Good post Zitha.

I have been playing with it on test and it is a much improved class.  A huge improvement in over the broken version we have been playing in both power and fun of play.  At first glance it looks like we are fixed.

But you bring up a good point.  Where are we on the relative Utility scale as we are now 3 on the Relative DPS scale?

There is a lengthy and heated post about where we are relative to other mages currently on Live that can be found here:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=49537

One of the big things discussed in this post was the Sorc CC ability and how it was far superior to ours in practical EQ2 application, stuns and roots.  I think by looking at their abilities and reading some of their posts that they may have been nerfed in stuns and roots as well.  So from a CC balance standpoint, we were both nerfed heavilly.  In the end ours 'appears' to be a bit better as it should be, but is this enough?

I would like to point out is that with these new shorter duration mez/roots, we can ONLY CC when we CC.  So if we are using this utility or class defining ability, it is all we will be doing.  On Live I can mez two of a three group and kill them one by one by tanking the third, but this is not possible on Test.  On live I can mez a couple adds and return to DPS...well I wouldn't call Live Illusionist damage DPS but whatever.  It would take everything I had to keep those two locked down and I would not be able to fight the third.  Perhaps this is intended, but it should be factored into the big picture.

CC is a pure trade off in real time for DPS.  You must choose one or the other.  See the attached string.  This was my point was my point then and still holds true with the revamp.  "It does not matter if Sorc and Chanter are Equal in DPS as Chanter will be to busy to use it and therefore never parse out equal with a Sorc."  Now don't go off in a tirade, none of us want Sorc DPS.  I am just using this as a premise for the point.

But if enchanter abilities to enhance group are not significantly better than these abilities of sorcerer what does justify significantly lower dps?? Mez – drop one tier in dps? Breeze - drop one more tier in dps? Seems a bit harsh to me.

Using this as a Premise, 'Mez -drop one tier in DPS', then we need to move one tier up in DPS as we cannot use any DPS when we Mez.  But I don't want to move up one tier.  I would rather be able to do the new proposed DPS plus CC like I can now.  I did not roll a Sorc, I rolled a Chanter.

 

As for the Pet vs Defensive stance. 

 

I have done alot of solo with both on test but at low levels so not sure how it will scale.  What I have found is the pet can indeed tank an even con solo mob.  However, if I apply a moderate amount of damage I get to tank instead.  If I use the defensive stance I can tank an even con solo mob(still level 20 so this ability to tank will undoubtedly disappear in higher levels)...so there is the paradox.  Use it and not tank or dont use it and get better exp.  I actually like the pet but it is a tough descision whether to trade off the defensive stance for it.  I agree with you that the defensive stance should be available when we solo.  I like the pet and think it is a great addition but I don't think any VLA should ever have to tank to solo.  Solo as VLA should be Brain not Brawn.  

 

I think your suggestion of having the pet as a 2 conc slot offers an interesting scenario.  We would be trading the pet for regen essentially.  2 slots for the pet plus 3 slots for Defense.  No room for anything else.  This would allow us to solo better by eliminating all of our group utilities including our class defining regen. 

 

Another thing you did not address in your balance scenario is our debuf ability.  We got a double edged sword on Debufs.  We get power drains and attack debufs much earlier, starting at 17 for our first drain and 20 for our first debuf.  However, the attack debuf has increased while the drain is not nearly as effective.  Draining a mob is fine but if you can only drain him by 30-50% what good is it?  A mob with 10% power is just as deadly as one with 100%.  Speechless allowed us to fully drain mobs.  With the very long recast and the lowered effectivenss of the drain it is a major nerf IMO.  Almost to the point of being worthless.

 

I don't know how we fair opposed to other Mages for debufs but it must be factored as well when you consider balance. 

 

[PigLick]

I think you both bring up some good points, but I don't entirely agree with SunTzu's statements regarding only being able to CC or DPS, not both. Maybe things are differnt between Illu's and Coercers, as I play a coercer, but I think they're pretty similar now. CCing will definitely take alot of concentration and will cut down our dps, but it won't completely negate it. Maybe if you're trying to really extend yourself and lock down more than two mobs by using stuns, stifles, etc while keeping two others mezed, but then I think it's only fair to lose all of our dps in return for keeping 3 mobs out of the fight (for a short time, at least. Those tuns don't last long and that 3rd mob is goig to break free eventually). However, we only really have one mez line now, and it has a 10 second recast. That means you have 10 seconds between mezes to nuke, DoT, and reactive. In fact, that's enough to do one (or more) of each and still have plenty of time to re-target and be ready to mez when it's refreshed. It takes a good deal of concentration and coordination, but I enjoy that myself. The discrepancy between the quality and quantity of our buffs vs the other mage types is an important issue that should be looked a though, I agree there. I'm not sure if it's out of balance or not, but it certainly bears investigation because, as has been said, we supposedly give up dps in return for our buffs and CC. CC has been reduced considerably, while our buffs, on the surface, don't seem to be anything special compared to every other class, and we can only use a few at once due to conc slot issues. I think some in-depth grouped testing should be done, because enchanters especially are a complex and varied class. It's so easy to focus on just one or two aspects of the class in discussions while leaving out the others, which doesn't give us full credit. We have a sort of synergy with our abilities where individually they're nothing special, but when you stack them all together they can be pretty potent. PigLick

Message Edited by PigLickJF on 08-17-2005 10:05 AM

[Eileah]

Excellent posts =)

I just sigh when i read this stuff, I really do....

I do have one question though about the nerfs that maybe someone can answer...

Illusionists are getting their group invis nerfed badly, as are other classes that have a group invis, BUT to my knowledge all the other classes have some sort of run speed buff to offset the speed decrease, I even read a Coercer post that their invis (not sure if its single or group) has a 10% run speed increase to it.

So with the invis nerf to all grou invis, Illusionists are the only one that cannot offset it with a run speed buff.

Am I correct in this? Or are there other classes that get a group invis without an ability to offset the run speed decrease?

I use invis as a way to travel to where we want to be, it merely saves time in a very time-sink intensive game so why nerf it into oblivion?

 

 

 

[PigLick]

Latest word, from what I hear, is that the runspeed debuff on Illusionist group invis has been removed. You now move at normal speed. Coercers don't get a group invis on live or test (as far as I'm aware). On live the best coercer single-target does give a 10% runspeed buff. Not sure on test, my coercer only has the first invis (which all enchanters, and perhaps all mages, get), and it has a 35% decrease (which I believe is the same as on live). PigLick

[Amaterasu]

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zitha wrote:

So while summoner have to decide between defensive stance for themselves or more buffs for their pet and while enchanter have to decide beteween defensive for themselves or no pet at all, sorcerer don’t have to trade off anything for their dps. They can use their “solo stance” without any impact.

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I agree with most of what you say and think most other summoners would as well but as a necro I wanted to clarify this part a little bit. Summoners do not have any need to decide between magi shielding and thier pet buff. Pet buffs are the only option, magi shielding is not. Without the buffs our pet is no better than your pet and as SunTsu pointed out it can't hold agro if you are nuking. Summoners however get pet buffs that give the pet taunting and defense or no defense and good damage. If the pet is not buffed it can't tank and doesn't do any damage. If its not tanking and not doing damage why waste a concentration point on it? The pets damage output is also half of the damage that a summoner does so even in a group you need to have a pet with buffs in order to do the damage you're supposed to be doing. The only use for magi shielding for a summoner would be to provide a bit of extra defense when you train through agro mobs to run somewhere. So the real issue is "sorcerers don't have to trade off anything for their dps". The sorcerers can have magi shielding (defensive stance) and still do full damage (offensive) and still have concentration for group buffs. Other mages (and other classes) have to choose one or the other; defensive or offensive.

[Oghi]

It appears that Magi's Shielding will be useful only to sorcerers.  Enchanters and Summoners will not be able to DPS effectively without a pet, thereby eliminating the chance at a 3-slot self-buff.  I wonder if this is intended, and SOE is balancing the mage classes based on the assumption that only sorcs will be using that spell. More likely, this hasn't been thought through yet, and I hope that it is before the changes leave test.

[KBern]

It seems many classes will have concentration probelms.

I have the same issues with the pet classes.  If we choose to solo, and use magi shielding, 3 slots gone.  We call our pet (we obviously have to as necros and conjurers) we are down to 1 slot left. 

Our offensive pet buff takes 2 slots, so we cannot use that and have magi shielding up. 

We have the same issue with other pet stances, and group buffs.  Just not enough concentration slots when we always will have 2-3 just to have our pets out.

I love some of the pet changes, and I hope illusionists get a really nice upgrade in dmg, but the concentration slot issue across the board needs to be revisited IMHO.

[Lik]

I find the idea of giving the pet only 2 concentration fascinating. It allows us to semi tank, and have the added dps of our pet, in a solo stance it would be wonderful, the tradeoff to bieng able to solo well is that we get only normal power regen (no breeze), and we can't haste our pet, perhaps no Dynamism on us/the pet (Can't remember if it used a conc or not).

The question it raises is what does freeing up a conc slot in a group situation do? Now we would have a pet for dps(2), breeze for the group (1), Haste on a scout (1), and our level 49 group buff (1). [just an idea of a possible method to run on conc slots] This gives us the max dps output possible, but doesn't appear to overpower us as a class & in reality, the 3 slots are to prevent us from bieng 100% buffed up where we don't have to make critical decisions.

How much DPS do we bring to a group? That is a question that I don't think we know even on live servers. It would require setting up a standard group of 5, parsing the dps over the period of 30 minutes per trial. Then adding an enchanter to the pot and repeating it. Without comparisons of live versus test of the same classes, same levels, same equipment roughly, we don't really get to see a clear picture of what we bring to a group.

Anyhoo, great thread, excellent posts, very constructive on everyone's  part.

[SunT]

I really LIKE the conc slot concept. 

I like the fact that my Pally must decide whether to go defensive or offensive. 

I like choosing what to do for a given situation rather than just filling my conc slots and forgetting about it.  I think it will help to differentiate good players from button mashers.

I think this whole concept is a good addition to EQ2, but I don't think the system is balanced quite yet.