Dev Please Comment on Range Slot Balance

[SunT]

There are many strings on several class pages that discuss the lack of an equipable  range item for stat purposes for Crusader, Priest and Mage classes. 

 

I feel this is an imbalance issue.  I would like to see a developer comment on what the thinking of SOE is on this issue, i.e.  plan to fix or think it is working as intended.

 

If it is not planned to be rectified, I would like to hear why it is considered 'Balance' that half the classes get one more slot than the other half. 

 

I have read most of the strings and cannot see any justification to add stats to a few select classes.

 

 

 

[Xlap]

hate to say it, but repost this without the words "dev" or "mod" or anything like that in the topic. they have said they will NOT respond to something like that in the title

[SunT]

If you don't mind, please go search the Dev Tracker and you will see that on numerous occasions they have in fact responded directly to direct post using thier name and or title.

 

Perhaps they stated somewhere that they would not bit it appears they have changed thier mind.

 

This issue has been brought up in many strings and they have yet to comment, I dont care whether they do it here or in another string, I just wnat a comment. 

 

If I don't keep making noise then they will never answer the question.

 

I do appreciate your 'one star' for me, it was a nice gesture. 

[slard2]

Yep, I agree.It doesn't seem entirely fair that melee classes get to have an extra slot in which they can equip an item with stats. Wouldn't be difficult to make a few that casters can use, weapons or not.

[CerraWhisperwind]

Casters get off hand items that have better stats than the usual shield or secondary weapon. This balances.

[Krewlryali]

For equipment around my level, I have never seen a drop for casters off hand that has AC.  Most offhand items that I have seen have had similar ranks for stats.

[SunT]

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CerraWhisperwind wrote:
Casters get off hand items that have better stats than the usual shield or secondary weapon. This balances.

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You are talking about the Symbol line.  It is secondary slot equippable only.  The stats are good, but I wouldn't say better than the stats on bows or shields.  And they get BOTH the secondary slot AND the range slot.  There is no item that has the stats equal to both of those slots except maybe the Stein of Moggok, and the classes that cannot use it can use nearly every other primary/secondary Heritage item...except Crusaders who get screwed out of both.

 

I made another post in this area re this issue.  My suggested solution to this would be to allow the Symbol line to be duo equippable in both the range and secondary slot.  Easy fix from a programming standpoint.

 

This would be balance.  All classes would have the same number of equipable slots.  No additional abilities would be granted.  Most Bows have no AC and no symbol I have seen yet has any either.

 

At level 20 this is a non-issue as the stats on items are negligable.  At 35 I am starting to see a major difference.  My gear is far superior to those I am grouping with but thier overall stats are the same or slightly better. 

[CerraWhisperwind]

A friend of mine plays a healer and she forgoes a shield in favor of an item with +8 wisdom and other stats... This is easily worth two slots in other gear. She was 31 at the time I saw her with the item, although I think she has had it for a while. Weapons and bows around that level usually have +4 stats total each, or close to it.I would definately not want someone using TWO of those books/icons/whatevers, that would be MUCH more than a weapon and a bow.

[Demothis]

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Xlapus wrote:

hate to say it, but repost this without the words "dev" or "mod" or anything like that in the topic. they have said they will NOT respond to something like that in the title

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Not true, there have been a few times they have even with this statment in effect, even though they seem to frown on directly replying to them. To the OP I dont see why crusaiders can't use bows in the first place and universal Items to be placed into the range slot sounds fair to me.

Message Edited by Demothises on 03-04-2005 09:49 AM

[Miral]

How about letting casters and healers dual wield symbols? can make it so you can't attack with em if ya want... I'm pretty sure EQOA had something similar (though its been a while)

[Melamp]

actually melee secondary weapons are just as good or better than any priest symbol or shield

[Kwoung]

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SunTsu wrote:

If it is not planned to be rectified, I would like to hear why it is considered 'Balance' that half the classes get one more slot than the other half. 

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Because balance has nothing to do with being equal in slots, stats or anything else, it has to do with how a class performs. I can't speak to crusaders, but I know that mage and healer classes perform great with the gear they are currently able to wear and giving us more, could possibly unbalance the classes in the name of trying to make them be able to use an equal number of slots.

[Melamp]

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Kwoung wrote:

Because balance has nothing to do with being equal in slots, stats or anything else, it has to do with how a class performs. I can't speak to crusaders, but I know that mage and healer classes perform great with the gear they are currently able to wear and giving us more, could possibly unbalance the classes in the name of trying to make them be able to use an equal number of slots.

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That really makes no sense..so would you say it would be better to take the stats away from from the range slots all together?that way melee get the use of the range slot which keeps them doing what they do know which in your mind is balanced yet we could put things in the range slot with no benefit whatsoever as we already perform as intended.

[CerraWhisperwind]

What he means is the classes may be balanced with this disparity in slots in mind. There may be other benifits they get instead.You cannot compare each little part to each little part, you have to compare the classes as a whole.

[Kwoung]

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Melampus wrote:

That really makes no sense..so would you say it would be better to take the stats away from from the range slots all together?
that way melee get the use of the range slot which keeps them doing what they do know which in your mind is balanced yet we could put things in the range slot with no benefit whatsoever as we already perform as intended.

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It makes perfect sense, you not understanding what balance is, is most likely what is causing your confusion. A mage with a single slot for a robe and nothing else *could* be balanced against a fighter type with 30 slots if they choose to do it that way.. they obviously didn't, but the fact that the fighters have access to one more slot has absolutely zero to do with balance.

 

Stop confusing balance with equality or being identical and you will understand how it works.

Message Edited by Kwoung on 02-28-2005 05:43 PM

[Melamp]

Your idea of balance is perception so is mine..neither is correct.This game is different than eq1 in the since that all classes need mana ..the more the betteris all classes equipped the same balanced if they all have the same mana?Are they out of balance because some classes and equipt a useful item in a slot others can't put anything at all in?Are they out of balance because certain classes can build stats from a slot no one else can?I think i've played the game as long are long as anyone else so I have as much of an idea of balance as anyone else...I think it wouldn't break the game for priest and mages to have some sort of item..be it a charm or something else that could go in the range slot and provide stats and benefits. I don't think you would see the scout/fighter classes complaining because they wouldn't think it's out of balance.

[SunT]

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CerraWhisperwind wrote:A friend of mine plays a healer and she forgoes a shield in favor of an item with +8 wisdom and other stats... This is easily worth two slots in other gear. She was 31 at the time I saw her with the item, although I think she has had it for a while. Weapons and bows around that level usually have +4 stats total each, or close to it.I would definately not want someone using TWO of those books/icons/whatevers, that would be MUCH more than a weapon and a bow.

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I have/had 10 wis on my sheild, plus stats. Look me up on Players.This arguement Re class balancing has been made time and again on string after string. This is fast becoming another string of the same old song. Adding a Cedar long bow at 6 int, 8 agil, 7 str, 9 wis, 57 health, 46 power, equippable at level forty when half of the classes can equip NOTHING, is a stat imbalance. It is not even a point you can argue. If you wish to argue the overall 'class' balance issues then make another string. Start with the grand prowess of the druid classes or the Shadowknights, both broken, both littered with issues, both cannot equip a ranged slot. Then make your argument about the slot being fair.I would be curious to know what classes are represented in this string and what side they stand on this argument. It would be my wager that those who can equip are the same ones posting opposition.

[Kwoung]

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Melampus wrote:
Your idea of balance is perception so is mine..neither is correct.

This game is different than eq1 in the since that all classes need mana ..the more the better

is all classes equipped the same balanced if they all have the same mana?

Are they out of balance because some classes and equipt a useful item in a slot others can't put anything at all in?

Are they out of balance because certain classes can build stats from a slot no one else can?

I think i've played the game as long are long as anyone else so I have as much of an idea of balance as anyone else...I think it wouldn't break the game for priest and mages to have some sort of item..be it a charm or something else that could go in the range slot and provide stats and benefits. I don't think you would see the scout/fighter classes complaining because they wouldn't think it's out of balance.

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Maybe they should change the inventory screen to not show that slot on classes that can't use it, that would solve it for you.

 

As for balance, it is not a perception, it is a delicate balancing of skills, stats and a TON of stuff you can not readilly see. Does +1 agi, int, wis, etc have the same overall effect regardless of which class adds that stat via item, or are there variables in the underlying game that you haven't a clue about that make use of all those stats in different ways across different classes?

 

Anyways, yeah, maybe it wouldn't break the game to have some little trinket added for mages, etc that would go in their range slot. But then again, maybe it would throw off all the underlying formulas enough to toss them completely out of whack. One thing is for certain, they balanced the game without range slot items for some classes... and if they changed that now, I would bet you wouldn't be happy at the results. Because basically, they would need to change the values opr alogrythms used across all/some of the other slots to account for the change... nothing comes for free and the overall net result, would most likely end up being reduced overall effectiveness for your character until you found the "perfect" ranged item that could make up for the other reductions you took to be able to use that extra slot.

 

Bottom line, your character was balanced with the equpment he was designed to use and is able to currently equip.. change that and everything needs to be rebalanced. What you are asking for is bump up above balanced.. not balancing.

 

[aeio]

Probably should post this on the Items and Equipment forum.. Doesn't really have any direct relation to the test server or the current patch being tested.

[Melamp]

Kwoung What great knowledge of balance do you have?What lvl are you?what encounters have you faced that give credibility to you knowing what other classes can/cannot do.Have you grpped with every other class to see weaknesses and strengths to check for balance?Do you know the function of the other classes to determine if they can perform their roles better or at all with or without a range item/item slot?Balance is perception...if it wasn't then it would be something to hard code and hence would be implented at game launch.It's a matter or perception in which devs all work together to compromise their perception.Why do you think that in every MMORPG it gets twinked from time to time?IE; Complete heals turned into a numerical number; necros fear not working in pvp; Manaburn being on a timer attached to the mob.these are all tweaks, a system of checks and balances to make sure that the game is as balanced as it can be at anygiven time.as far as finding the perfect item for the ranged slot that would make up for the other slots.Each slot is like that, PPL wear Jboots, they take a hit against stats because some boots are better but they perceive speed increase to benefit them more. Gebs have mana regen, maybe someone wants them instead of jboots, I have a mana regen robe with hardly any stats I use yet i perceive the mana regen to be better than the 400 ac I lose and the other hp/mana and stats i use then using an ebon chest piece.I will always be switching items around on my character..not just the one slot of a new item.For ppl to come here and post they aren't demanding it, I think they would rather it be acknowleged by a dev for review and if no change is needed then an explanation on their view of how it is currently balanced.

[Kwoung]

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Melampus wrote:
Kwoung

What great knowledge of balance do you have?

What lvl are you?
what encounters have you faced that give credibility to you knowing what other classes can/cannot do.
Have you grpped with every other class to see weaknesses and strengths to check for balance?

Do you know the function of the other classes to determine if they can perform their roles better or at all with or without a range item/item slot?

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That is all immaterial.. the game to date has been balanced without those classes having access to a range slot item.. to change it at this point would throw everything off. If you have some particular beef about your particular class not performing up to snuff, then make a post about it in the correct forum, but to come and say that everyone should be able to use a range item when half the classes have been balanced to date without one, is ridiculous.

 

As for what is my experience with "balance", I play on the Test server in this and in pretty much every other game, and have seen first hand time after time the devistating effects even the slighest of little changes away from the core premises the game was designed around can make.. how about you?

 

Lets see what I know about balance:

 

The classes have all been designed to work with each other, the mobs have all been balanced against the characters. The exact maximum amount of damage, healing, resists, etc.. is all taken into account when SOE designed all their encounters and balanced the players and mobs against each other.

 

NOW.. you want to add stats above and beyond what every single encounter in the game was designed around. How does that effect game balance when all of the sudden, the players going up against supposedly uber mob X can put out more damage, live longer and have a better chance of resisting spells cast upon them than the encounter was designed for? Oh yeah, thats right, none of that matters because your idea of balance is that everyone uses the same number of slots.

[Melamp]

It's immaterial because you've probably spent more time here on the forums then playing the game to know what you're talking about.Do you really think the classes are balance? I mean really..if so then I'm mistaken and you've not read up on the forums much at all.So what devasting effects have you seen on EQ2 test server so far?Are you a crafter and gonna tell me how you saw how fubared the tradeskill patch made the economy.I doubt it..I doubt you even craft..but im sure you're gonna tell me that it's gonna even out the economy in the long run..because you're an economist and don't need to participate in tradeskills to give an oppinion correct?Are you really gonna sit back and tell me that mobs have been balanced against the characters max damage,heal resists ect.?recently VoV has been changed it no longer does and 8000+ AE...why...because that's not balanced...because only few...mind you VERY few high end classes can take that amount of damage. Now the damage is more intune with what players can handle.That's just 1 encounter from first hand knowledge....I can also point out mobs that have been beefed up.add stats above and beyond.?Ok explain how a grp of 24 can take out a mob with standard gear if there's gear in the game that has twice as good as stats?Explain how an epic X4 mob can be killed with 17 instead of 4 full grps?Tatic play a bigger role in encounter design than this master formula you think SoE createdThe problem with many of these posts in any forum is you have someone that posts what he percieves as a problem and wants it addressed...it may be a valid complaint or not.then you have ppl that sit around and posts 500 posts a day and have never encountered a problem with what is mentioned and they want to add their two cents in it..the post would be much better off if the only ones replying were ppl who knew what they were talking abuot..I don't go on the rogue forums and read that some skill they have is broke and tell them not to cry about it cause SoE never makes mistakes and encounters were based on that working the way it is currently and if anyone can defeat that encounter it only proves that there is no need to "fix" that skill as it would unbalance the entire world

[Kwoung]

Do I think all classes are balanced against each other.. no I don't. But then again, this isn't a PVP game, so classes are not balanced against each other, they are balanced against mobs and encounters. Like I said, if your class is not performing up to snuff in some particular area(s), then take it to your class board and post about it. But since most of the classes that would be affected by your proposed change are actually fairly well balanced and working as intended, to up their power is un-needed and would throw them out of balance.

 

I play a wizard, I do not read the wizard forums, I do not compare my class against a guardian or a defiler or anything else, I just play the game and test and for the most part, I am able to do everything SOE says I am supposed to be able to. I can solo even con mobs effectively, I can sometimes solo higher con mobs and I am a good addition to a group. My wife plays a defiler and has pretty much the same results. A friend of ours plays a scout class and she solos extremely well also.. but of course to read the boards here you would think that she is good for nothing and should be getting killed by greys constantly... funny how our in game experiences differ so vastly from so many of the posters here.

 

Bottom line, I do not need any extra items to be effective and function in game in a balanced manner... maybe your class does.. but giving me more power / hitpoints / resists / stats to fix your class doesn't balance the game, it has the exact opposite effect.

 

And for the record, I have both a Sage and Provisioner working through their 30's.

Message Edited by Kwoung on 02-28-2005 11:23 PM

[Melamp]

For starts players should be balanced against the other classes in their archtypes.Priest should have equal healing abilitiesfighters should all tank equally effective.This has been stated by SOEI handle myself very well other ppl that play my class saw we're broken..I agree that some of our stuff is in need of fixing.But do you ever think that maybe something in your class is broke but you've learn to adapt around it?btw what do you test?if it's not for a change that may go on the live server then you are playing the same game as everyone else with advance preview of what others May/may not see.But in order to test these things you have to do themIf there's a change on test to the fuel costs of tradeskilling..and you're not a crafter..you are not testing anything and hence have no valid input on what is going on.You are in a position to ONLY test the wizard class...only WHEN changes occur..so right now the only thing you are testing as for as Wizard is: - El'Arad's Custodial Warding can now be canceled via the spell window. - Concurrence can now be canceled via the spell window. - Fiery Pulse has a new description and icon to reflect that it is a heat-based spell.Which to me are all cosmetic in nature and have no value as far as a game changing effect.Every other wizard in the game has at this point done everything you have as a tester...and possibly more because of lvls...so I'd take their knowledge over a tester in this caseYou're get the TEST the game play changes...stuff like "more xp" "faster boat re-try timers" "rare quest mobs spawning more fequently" "lower grp xp debt".Maybe you should feedback some of these changes...tell Sony that there's ppl like me that...won't be affected by faster xp.....don't need to get back on the boat...have already completed the greenhood quest and don't need gurk to spawn faster...and xp debt doesn't bother me.This way it lets them know that the game balance they had designed in the first place at game launch doesn't need to be changed because obviously characters can advance to new zones..and level and complete quest without the changes.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

2 copper from a just-became-Templar:

 

So I can wear plate armor which is why I took this class, makes both soloing and being main-healer easier - and I LOVE the EQ2 plate design.

 

When it comes to shields I can still use nothing better than bucklers which I allready could at lvl 1(!) and  I dont understand why. Leave Tower and Kite to the fighters but at least a round shield would have been logical as part of the combat training that enables my class to wear plate.  BUT I can live with that and tell myself "Gesture-casting even with a smallest of shields shield is unrealistic enough so shut up and be thankfull to wield a buckler which gives 80 AC at your lvl allready!"

 

But I am not allowed to throw hammers either which would be/look/feel really cool AND the classic cleric ranged weapon of all time - the sling - is still not invented.

 

I dont care about a stat-adder in my ranged slot, but I do care about using SOME kind of ranged weapon AND having an inventory slot that will NEVER be put to any use.

 

sorry for the rant but I feel quite silly when the vendors tell me despite my mixture of leather, chain and plate armor: "Sorry young Templar, but you are either to dumb or to clumsy for throwing hammers like all of your class are. I have to admit although that our outfitters are also to dumb and clumsy to craft a simple sling..."

 

 

[CerraWhisperwind]

Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.

[Melamp]

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CerraWhisperwind wrote:Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.

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What do you mean alternate forms that add AC so it all balances out?

[Wasc]

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Melampus wrote:

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CerraWhisperwind wrote:Unfortuneatly they can't give you round shields because that is what scout classes are limited to and it would be too much of an advantage over other priests. You get plate but the other priests get alternate forms that add to AC so it all balances. Shields would be another matter.

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What do you mean alternate forms that add AC so it all balances out?

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I believe the poster was referring to the AC bonus added by a Shaman's alternate form, or by the Druid/Fury's alternate forms. These are a self-only spell requiring 1 concentration that they must either use ALL the time or not enjoy the added AC that your heavy armor provides. It's also not listed as "mitigation" the way your armor is, it's just listed as "AC". I don't know if that means it's harder to hit a Shaman in their alternate form, but if you hit it all goes through to their armor, or what. I know that your heavy armor, Templar, provides you with considerably more damage mitigation compared to that of the light armor wearable by a Fury, regardless of their Lion form.

[dparker7]

You're making the wrong argument.  You want a change.  You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy.  Its not Why dont I have this?  Its Why do I need this?  Its also not Why does he have this and I don't?  Classes are different.

 

Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items. 

 

 

[Melamp]

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dparker713 wrote:

You're making the wrong argument. You want a change. You need to cite a reason for the change other than jealousy. Its not Why dont I have this? Its Why do I need this? Its also not Why does he have this and I don't? Classes are different.

Unless you prove the status quo is not fine, then there is no reason to change other than you're vanity and a desire to spend more coin on items.

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FACTS:All classes need hpall classes need powerall classes need stam (stam = hp)by some classes gaining access to another slot which has stats in the item then 2 heavy class ppl with the exact same armor/jewelry/weapons on but one being a cleric and one being a guardian the gaurdian is going to have more stats