Huge problem with tradeskill society task rewards

[Tarindel]

The new fuel prices cause a huge problem with the tradeskill society task rewards.First, let's review a couple of statements by Moorgard (to make sure we're all on the same page), then we'll do a little math to support this conclusion.From Test Server Update: February 10, 2005:- Tradeskill society tasks will now reward a 20% profit margin based on the fuel costs necessary to create the items.From Test Server Update Notes: February 15, 2005 Part Two:- Prices for the new fuel types have been adjusted: - Base level 0 - 4c (was 6c) - Base level 10 - 14c (was 24c) - Base level 20 - 58c (was 96c) - Base level 30 - 2s 30c (was 3s 84c) - Base level 40 - 9s 22c (was 15s 36c)- Culinary recipes use different types of fuel that are less expensive: - Base level 0 - 1c (Walnut Kindling) - Base level 10 - 4c (Mulberry Kindling) - Base level 20 - 14c (Cherry Kindling) - Base level 30 - 55c (Hickory Kindling) - Base level 40 - 2s 21c (Mesquite Kindling)---For reference, here are the current (live server) rewards for tradeskill society tasks:Base level 0 (tier 1): 9sBase level 1 (tier 2): 36sBase level 2 (tier 3): 1g 44sBase level 3 (tier 4): 5g 76sBase level 4 (tier 5): 23g 4sNow let's consider what happens under the new fuel costs (non-consumable), with the 20% profit margin based on fuel costs.Tier (New Fuel Cost) Profit/Fuel (20%) -- Profit/Fuel of Base Item per Task (for 10 items)Tier 1 (4c) .8c -- 8cTier 2 (14c) 2.8c -- 28cTier 3 (58c) 11.6c -- 1s 16cTier 4 (2s 30c) 46c -- 4s 60cTier 5 (9s 22c) 1s 84c -- 18s 40cTo find your total profit per task, simply multiply the profit/fuel per task by the number of fuels to create your item. For example, a 10 fuel tier 4 item will yield 4s 60c * 10 = 46s.Assuming 10 fuel/item, here are your final profit margins:Tier (Profit/fuel per Task) Final ProfitTier 1 (8c) 80cTier 2 (28c) 2s 80cTier 3 (1s 16c) 11s 60cTier 4 (4s 60c) 46sTier 5 (18s 40c) 1g 84sThat's right, for a tier 3 task with 10 combines (per item), your reward will be a profit of 11s and change.I agree that the old rewards need to be adjusted, but just for kicks, lets compare the old rewards to the new ones (assuming 10 combines):Tier (Old Reward) New Reward (Percentage)Tier 1 (9s) 80c (8.88%)Tier 2 (36s) 2s 80c (7.77%)Tier 3 (1g 44s) 11s 60c (8.05%)Tier 4 (5g 76s) 46s (7.98%)Tier 5 (23g 4s) 1g 84s (7.98%)So as you can see, the current rewards are about 8% of the old ones (assuming 10 combines -- with 5 combines they would only be about 4% of the current rewards).I don't know about you, but if I'm only receiving 11s 60c as a reward for a Tier 3 task with 100 total combines, I'm not going to bother.Side note: You'd be better off doing harvesting tasks than turning your harvests into final goods. At tier 3, a harvesting task yields 48s, whereas the new rewards for finished goods is only about 25% of that! In fact, tier 3 harvesting tasks yield MORE than tier 4 society tasks!---For makers of consumables, the issue is so much worse, it's comical.Tier (New Fuel Cost) Profit/Fuel (20%) -- Profit/Fuel of Base Item per Task (for 10 items)Tier 1 (1c) .2c -- 2cTier 2 (4c) .8c -- 8cTier 3 (14c) 2.8c -- 28cTier 4 (55c) 11c -- 1s 10cTier 5 (2s 21c) 44c -- 4s 40cNow let's take a standard case for provisioners, where a final item will require 3 fuels:Tier (Profit/fuel per Task) Final ProfitTier 1 (2c) 6cTier 2 (8c) 24cTier 3 (28c) 84cTier 4 (1s 10c) 3s 30cTier 5 (4s 40c) 13s 20cThat's right, for a tier 3 task (and approximately 30 minutes of work), you provisioners will make a profit of 84c! How will you ever resist the temptation? (yes, this is sarcasm)Tier (Old Reward) New Reward (Percentage)Tier 1 (9s) 6c (0.66%)Tier 2 (36s) 24c (0.66%)Tier 3 (1g 44s) 84c (0.58%)Tier 4 (5g 76s) 3s 30c (0.55%)Tier 5 (23g 4s) 13s 20c (0.57%)As you can see, current rewards for consumable items will be reduced to about 0.6% of their current levels post-patch (a reduction of about 166 times).---Also keep in mind that the rewards don't consider the costs of raws at all. So provisioners, that 84c you made from slaving for a half hour will not even cover the cost of 1 raw for your tier 3 task (especially if it's a fayberry).If there are any problems with my math/logic here, please let me know. Because as far as I can tell, the system we're changing to is _completely ridiculous_. It's obvious the 20% profit margin number is no longer sufficient. In fact, given the separate fuel costs for producers of durable and consumable goods, a single profit margin number based on the price of fuel will not work at all. ---Now let's talk about reasonable solutions.I think any solution SOE comes up with is going to have to take into account the following facts:1) Consumable and Durable goods fuels do not cost the same amount2) Goods take different amounts of combines3) Some combines takes longer than others (eg. I've heard provisioners goods take longer to make)If you set the profit margins so both durable and consumable good producers get the same reward per amount of time (as a fixed reward not based on fuel costs), durable goods producers will end up making less because their fuel costs are more expensive (they have to use more of their profits to buy fuel).If you set the profit margin to a single number proportional to individual fuel costs (accounting for the fact that consumable's fuels are cheaper than durable's fuels), consumable goods producers will make only 25% of what durable goods producers make for the same amount of time because their fuel only costs 25%.If you set the profit margin to two numbers, one for durable good producers and one 4 times as large for consumable goods producers, durable goods producers and consumables good producers will make the same amount per task, but consumable goods producers can typically do more tasks per unit of time, so they will end up making more.I think the ideal solution is this:SOE needs to figure out how much they want players to be making in profit per tier per hour. The reward for a single task should be this FIXED reward amount, divided by the time it takes to actually create the good (based on how many combines it takes and how much time it takes per combine), PLUS reimbursement for the fuels.For example, let's say SOE decides that Tier 3 tasks should yeild 48s/hour of work (just pulling a number out of thin air).Let's say a durable goods producer can do 1 10-combine task per hour. Fuel costs will be: 58c/fuel * 10 fuels/item * 10 items/task = 58s. The final reward for this task should be: 48s/1 tasks per hour + 58s = 106s, which yields a profit of 48s, for a profit margin of 48s/hour.Let's say a consumable goods producer can do 3 3-combine tasks per hour. Fuel costs will be: 14c/fuel * 3 fuels/item * 10 items/task = 4s 20c. The final reward for this task should be: 48s/3 tasks per hour + 4s 20c = 20s 20c, which yeilds a profit of 16s, for a profit margin of 48s/hour (since you can do 3 of these tasks/hour).---In short, the system as it stands is _horribly_ broken, and here is one way to fix it that I think is equitable to everyone involved.Edit: fixed spelling errors.

Message Edited by Tarindel on 02-16-2005 03:25 PM

[Xran]

Nice calculations and summary. Hope devs see this.

[Fireci]

Nice post, with nicely used examples to prove your point.

 

However, you're whole argument basically just proved a statement made by SoE:  That we are meant to break even doing Tasks.  Tasks are meant as a way to make tradeskilling xp, not to make a profit.  Only way for an artisan to make a profit is to sell to other players.  That has been Sony's stance all along.  All your numbers did to me was prove that we will not LOSE money doing Tasks, we'll just break even.

 

I've always seen the Harvesting Tasks as a small side bonus to getting my Harvesting skills up.  Same goes with the Crafting Tasks.  I'm being subsidised to get my tradeskills up.  As this is the point of Tasks, I am ok with the current system of rewards.

 

Heck, if you look at the adventuring side of things, I did a quest at lvl 29 and I got a measly 10sp for my troubles.  But the xp from doing the quest is better then just mindlessly grinding away xping.  Same logic applies to Tradeskills.

 

 

 

Fireci - Najena

[Kar]

nm

Message Edited by Karom on 02-16-2005 10:12 AM

[Tarindel]

---

Fireci wrote:

Nice post, with nicely used examples to prove your point.

However, you're whole argument basically just proved a statement made by SoE: That we are meant to break even doing Tasks. Tasks are meant as a way to make tradeskilling xp, not to make a profit.

---

The devs said hereSelling back items to vendors has been addressed due to the fuel cost increase. You will be able to sell your items at a portion of the cost of production. The more steps that went into the production of the item will determine the percent that you will receive for the item. Please keep in mind also, that certain vendors are greedier than others which will alter the final selling price.So it looks like merchants are supposed to buy stuff at a portion of the cost of fuel. However, I don't believe that tasks were meant ONLY as a way to make tradeskilling exp -- otherwise people would just do writs and never tasks (since writs are supposed to cover your fuel costs). The tasks should yield _some_ profit to differentiate them -- how much is a question left up to SOE. But as it stands now, things are way broken no matter which way you look at it.

Message Edited by Tarindel on 02-16-2005 10:20 AM

[Lordlars]

I would ok with tradeskill tasks as a breakeven deal, IF selling items to other palyers was truly a realistic option.   Problem being i havent really been able to sell my spell upgrades because Adept 1 drops are plentiful,  armor makers are competing against better than comparable drops,  broker market is broken in that you can't search for food based on its level for you,  potions/poisons are not able to be searched for on the broker at all--don't even think about level based,  SOE's lack of understanding that harvesting itself is a semi-profession in that many true artisans do not want to take the time involved to Harvest (or in fact adventure with that character enough just to be able to harvest) so therefore raw materials are a Very Real money making use of a characters time and a Very Real cost to the artisan class.....   should i go on.

 

I understand that SOE is attempting to "fix" things in the economy, but fixing the broken parts of the game will at least help some of th economy problems.   Do i exploit the current system to make money by selling directly to vendors...dang right i do...and its partially because parts of th egame are broken which prevent buyers from finding my products.

[Largef]

The new changes wouldn't be a huge deal for me if the workshop tasks and tradeskill writs would accept pristine versions instead of just shaped versions.  Also, if the workshop tasks are going to take such a major hit to the reward, maybe they could add a TS EXP bonus as well as the pocket change profit.

[Sunlei]

My BOOKs just started costing 3 GOLD!

 

I spend almost a gold on ONE stack of raws.

 

Why does it say in the manual that the society tasks are for suppiy costs if you are going to nurf my society task to 54 coppers!?

 

darnit ! I wish I could level faster for just a few of the gold rewards everyone else got before this doomsday patch 

[Fireci]

---

Largefry wrote:

The new changes wouldn't be a huge deal for me if the workshop tasks and tradeskill writs would accept pristine versions instead of just shaped versions.  Also, if the workshop tasks are going to take such a major hit to the reward, maybe they could add a TS EXP bonus as well as the pocket change profit.

---

I totally agree with your Largefry.  The Shaped requirements for these tasks is a real pain.  UNLESS there really is no tradeskill xp bonus between Shaped and Pristine.  If this were the case, then just doing everything Shaped would be a heck of a lot faster.

Has anyone ever proven that we do indeed get more xp for Pristine over Shaped?  I'm at work so I can't just in and try it out. 

 

Fireci - Najena

[Nakato]

---

Fireci wrote:

Nice post, with nicely used examples to prove your point.

 

However, you're whole argument basically just proved a statement made by SoE:  That we are meant to break even doing Tasks.  Tasks are meant as a way to make tradeskilling xp, not to make a profit.  Only way for an artisan to make a profit is to sell to other players.  That has been Sony's stance all along.  All your numbers did to me was prove that we will not LOSE money doing Tasks, we'll just break even.

 

I've always seen the Harvesting Tasks as a small side bonus to getting my Harvesting skills up.  Same goes with the Crafting Tasks.  I'm being subsidised to get my tradeskills up.  As this is the point of Tasks, I am ok with the current system of rewards.

 

Heck, if you look at the adventuring side of things, I did a quest at lvl 29 and I got a measly 10sp for my troubles.  But the xp from doing the quest is better then just mindlessly grinding away xping.  Same logic applies to Tradeskills.

 

 

Fireci - Najena

---

Because the amount of time needed to gather the resources is not factored into the calculations these payouts look like a huge loss to me. On live servers either time or money must be spent to gather raw materials. Time spent harvesting neither adds crafting xp nor profit with these payouts. I do not see adventures being essentially forced to undertake a time sink activities before they are allowed to go xp.

In the example you listed, you gained a measly 10sp profit and xp without perhaps having to do some sort of time sink and received the bonus xp for completing a quest [something crafters do not gain for tasks/writs]. It should also be noted that your 10sp profit is vastly superior to the 84 copper pay out of a t3 task listed above. If you where required to spend time harvesting or paying to gain materials before even engaging in the quest, perhaps it would be more reasonable. 

 

13sp 20 cp "profit" isn't even enough profit to cover a mistake with one raw harvest in t5 off current broker costs on my live server. These payouts are a joke.

 

Bonus xp would have to be implemented for the tasks and the quest giver would have to provide no trade raw material components for the crafting questers to utilize for your example to be more equalivent  to these tasks. Even then they payout is inferior to your 10sp.

[Sorentio]

You're a REALLY NICE PERSON OMG - Faar.  You're taking the absolute reward as it is now, and comparing it to the "profit" you'll make post-patch.  If you actually compared profit to profit, then you'd find that most classes that currently need to purchase sub-components from other classes end up losing money for workshop tasks, whereas after the patch they'll at least be making 20% profit.

 

Tier5 task reward now:  23g 4s.  Profit varies from very high for provs and alchs to very low or negative for armorers and sages.

Tier5 task reward post-patch:  11g 6s, assuming 10 fuels in recipe.  Profit is an equal 1g84s for everyone except provs, who have a quarter the fuel costs and thus a quarter the reward and profit both.  Plus you get to level up your workshop society! whoo.

 

Anyway, that's a far less drastic change. :>

 

The idea is supposed to be that you make your money by selling to other players anyway.

Message Edited by Sorentio on 02-16-2005 02:51 PM

Message Edited by Faarwolf on 02-16-2005 03:31 PM

[Tarindel]

---

Sorentio wrote:

You're an idiot. You're taking the absolute reward as it is now, and comparing it to the "profit" you'll make post-patch. If you actually compared profit to profit, then you'd find that most classes that currently need to purchase sub-components from other classes end up losing money for workshop tasks, whereas after the patch they'll at least be making 20% profit.

Tier5 task reward now: 23g 4s. Profit varies from very high for provs and alchs to very low or negative for armorers and sages.

Tier5 task reward post-patch: 11g 6s, assuming 10 fuels in recipe. Profit is an equal 1g84s for everyone except provs, who have a quarter the fuel costs and thus a quarter the reward and profit both. Plus you get to level up your workshop society! whoo.

Anyway, that's a far less drastic change. :>

The idea is supposed to be that you make your money by selling to other players anyway.

---

I think you've missed my point entirely. First, I specifically state that the current task rewards were included only "for reference". Second, armorers and weaponsmiths and other producers of durable goods are not going to be much better off under the new system than the old one, and they're not going to see much of that 20% profit at all. Here's why.Under the old system, a durable goods producer had three costs: fuel, raws, and subcomponents. Fuel costs for producing 10 items with 10 combines each was 6s. As you tier up, that cost becomes increasingly negligible. Largely, the high cost of producing these items comes from buying raws and subcomponents.Now let's consider what happens under the new system. Fuel costs for combines go to 0. They're completely recompensated. Raws presumably still have the same cost. Subcomponents are going to be cheaper two reasons: 1) if you buy subcomponents, you're still going to eat the markup, but that'll probably be less than the price gouging we see today, and 2) If you produce them yourself, you're eating the cost of the double fuel requirment.So the question becomes: having purchased the raws and paid for the subcomponents, are the rewards I calculate above adequate? For a T3 armorer, is 11s 60c enough to pay for all the raws they need, plus subcomponents? I doubt it. Thus, they're still going to see a net loss.Producers of consumable goods have it even worse, as their 20% margin is so small it will not even cover the cost of 1 raw needed, given prices for raws as we see them today.Basically, what I am getting at is this: You can already have your fuel costs recompensated by doing the writ tasks. So in order to compel people to do society tasks, there has to be some tangible reward. That reward was supposed to be the 20% monetary reward. But with the recent reduction in fuel prices, this reward becomes insignificantly small, and needs to be adjusted. Furthermore, the separate fuel prices creates an inequity between durable and consumable goods producers that can be addressed in a reasonable manner, as I show above.

Message Edited by Tarindel on 02-16-2005 04:03 PM

[Line]

1, Tradeskill task gives you less exp than making a pristine item. Its no point to do a task that gain less exp and loss money at the same time.

 

2, Making money only  by sell to other players? Did you ever tested it by yourself? For example ,How many spell scolls you can sell per day ? 5? 10?  For the 10 scolls how many exp will you gain? 

 

3, If only sell to other players will make profit, PLZ let adventures do the same way. Sell loots to NPC will always got 10 copper whatever the items are. 

 

4, Dont talk about the side effect of the workshop level. I dont care about it. No one really care about it. Its not your guild, nor your family.

 

5. You dont care about 10 sp, but I CARE! If I am a pure artisan and I can only earn money from selling items to other players, How can  I dont care about 10 sp???

[Flachett]

something just doesnt seem right that when im a t5 crafter ( im very close) but yet im a upper t3 adventurer Ill make more money from drops hunting than I will doing writs investing the same amount of time doing them. Why craft? Ill get better xp hunting than making app 2 stuff not only that I can get adv writs and get status at the same time. Im sorry but whats in testing is a sham and I am soooooooo not looking forward to it hitting live because it will probably be the end of my crafting days.

Message Edited by Flachette1 on 02-16-2005 11:49 PM

Message Edited by Flachette1 on 02-16-2005 11:56 PM

[IceMy]

/start rantwell good looks like we will break even with fuel use... but when im paying 5s for a fayberry... thats right 1 fay berry and it takes 10 of those for a total of 50s, thats JUST the fayberry not to mention the 3s for the water, and the fuel to make it into juice. I then need to get some oolong tea if I want to short cut it it'll cost me 15-25s PER normal/pristine oolong tea, or I can buy the raws and make the stuff.... Depending on the time of day it will cost 1-5s for a tea leaf, so thats (at the low end) 10s JUST for the tea leafs now you have to add in the fuel and water cost... Thats right I am loseing 60s.... but on the bright side I will now break even with fuel use... when this goes live I'm quitting, a game is ment to be fun, I play this to have fun, to create something that people need (and no im no one of those provs that charges 1g for a t3 drink) I dont have a lot of money, right now as is I can barely afford the price of the raws so that I can get the big payout.... and I am not a full time prov I have a 35 guardian, so I have a lot of costs in both armor and adapt costs.... if im lucky I get the "hand-me-down armor from the 1 guard higher then I am... ok so I may not quit out right but I sure as hell am not going to keep lvling my prov, and I dont like having to charge my guildmates some stupid price for something they need, when they give me armor or whatever for free/end rantNow how to fix it (from a provisioners stand point because thats all I have done)...1) Increase the ammount of the rarer drops from shrubs - Shrubs right now have 8 drops 2-4 of those drops are for drinks (and all the tasks I have been givin have been for drinks) and those are the most expensive items2) Allow us to make multipul items per combine - As it stands we make 1 item per 1 combine even on our refines other tradeskillers make (again I dont know first hand) but I have heard they get 2 for a savory, 3 for normal and 4 items for a delectiable. Even if we only made 1 for a final product prices would drop DRAMATICLY if we could make multipul subs (like WORTs)3) Drop the time it takes us to make a combine - Ok this one is you may laugh at but hear me out it took me almost as long to make a 5hr duration sandwich as it took a friend of mine (at the same lvl) to make a sword, now now that sword cost more in materials then my sandwich but will sell for around 2g (so he says) where I am lucky if I can give away food (thats food not drink) but thats a different thread =DThose are 3 ways that I could see how to A) bring down the price of food B) lower the cost for us to make the food and C) stop people from complaining all over the boards about how we (provisioners) are trying to rip you off... I also realize that SOE will probably never read this let alone take away anything I have said... I again realize that 1 would be a great thing but 2 and 3 if were even thought about probably wouldnt be put together... if they were provs could pump out a lot of food/drink in a short amount of time and would deffinatly drop the price of everything... /tosses in his 2cpIcemyst - Najena35 Guardian/27 ProvisionerPround member of High Guard

[Laeno]

The developers really need to play an artisan for a while before they make changes like this.  It's obvious that their knowledge of crafting is entirely based on what they've read on the boards and number-crunching theoretical ideas about it on paper.  Being a provisioner, all I can say is that these changes make absolutely no sense to me.  For example, if any of them had ever tried collecting resources for food and drink they would have either made it more feasible to gather your own resources, or left us a provision for paying for resources, as it was.  Instead they make it cost more and pay less.

 

/boggle

 

 

[Tarindel]

I address the continued inequity in profits between durable and consumable goods producers here, since the patch has now gone live.

Message Edited by Tarindel on 02-17-2005 08:40 AM

[IceMy]

Well guys, it went live, they changed everything.... and I just want to say it was a pleasure to play with all of you but this patch was the straw that broke my back, the game is no longer fun, as a provisioner I can no longer make money effectively and as an adventureer it costs me WAY too much to buy armor and weapons almost every lvl and not have any sell back chance to players... So farewell all and those of you who like the patch I know all my freinds are quitting so if we are any indication it looks like you will have very little compititionThanks you SOE