- All tradeskill classes can now refine their own materials and components! ????

Supafroi · 02-10-2005, 08:38 AM

All tradeskill classes can now refine their own materials and components!

Are you serious? I almost fainted....

ChunkyStyl · 02-10-2005, 11:34 AM

"- Four new crafting abilities have been discovered: apothecary, weaving, timbercraft, and geomancy. These skills allow all artisans to refine the materials and components needed to make final products. New recipe books can be found on merchants or scattered throughout Norrath which teach you how to use these skills. Artisans automatically gain 5 points per level in these skills."This implies that we will be able to make all the components for final combines, but we need to actually find all of the recipes before we can use them. I was a little upset when I heard this news, but I guess it's not as bad as I first thought, depending on how it is implemented.

Dimidri · 02-10-2005, 11:43 AM

So basically they want to flood the market faster?

Can someone please explain this clearly? I am btw on Test, I just haven't been able to log on... I'm actually doing homework =X sssshhh!

Aenae · 02-10-2005, 11:43 AM

Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's.

As an alchemist, where's my market?

- Aenae

Miral · 02-10-2005, 12:05 PM

I sense a removal of adept 1 drops in the near future.

wulfgarthegreat · 02-10-2005, 04:52 PM

What about the weaponsmith were there main source of income is making spikes becuase of the quested and loot drop weapons. we didn't make much to begin with now we will make nothing

Humudc · 02-10-2005, 04:56 PM

Althought this will make my life easier as a Level 21 Sage, being able to make my Own inks and stuff, this is clearly going to nerf the other artisan classes we currently depend on, to get our work done. For example a Level 22 Alchemist friend makes my inks that I can't and I make things he needs. By making everything available to the Sage or Woodworker, there goes any need for interdependency, hence nerfing the classes that supply other classes. Why Nerf the Tradeskillers again?

H · 02-10-2005, 05:35 PM

It would be wonderful to get the perspective of someone who's actually looked at this on the test server rather than just negative speculation.

The main factor here is the statement that anyone 'can' make sub-components. It doesn't suggest that everyone will have a desire to do so, based on certain factors, the primary of which is the rate of increase and efficiency of the new skills compared to existing trade skills.

If these are significantly lower than the increase within a tradeskill itself, it will still be more efficient for me to get my spikes or ink from someone who specialises in that skill, but if I need just the one, I have the possibility of making it myself if there's no-one around or the price on the market is just too high. Since if the skills are lower, crafting will be either slow or difficult to get pristine, or both, it may not be practical to, as an example, make your own ink if you are a sage. I don't like the idea75 pristine combines to make a stack of ink even with alchemist skills at full efficiency, let alone with new skills that may be less efficient.

Thinking about it, even rational speculation on this is relatively pointless - this new system is on test, so really one or all of us should look at exactly how it works there before praising or deriding SOE for their decision.

Hat.

*Edited* - "panic-merchants" was perhaps too strong a term.

Message Edited by Hat on 02-10-2005 04:48 AM

Baelzharon · 02-10-2005, 06:34 PM

I'll be blunt. T3 ink I sell for 3g a stack, T4 ink goes for roughly 9-15g a stack. Those prices are what helps set the spell prices the sages then place on the buyers. Everyone is happy, and App IVs are inline with Adept costs. If Sages can now make their own inks it will destroy that part of the economy. App IVs will flood the market and no one will make much profit specially the Alchemists. 50% of my income came from WROTs (bye bye!) and the other 50% came from supplying inks to Sages I had built up relationships with (bye bye!). Can Alchemists get the option to change their artisan classes? I don't want to make useless potions and poisons for my only way to make money in the game. Give fighter essances to Sages, Potions and Poisons to Provisioners and let us pick a new Artisan class.

Introduci · 02-10-2005, 06:54 PM

not that alchemists are good, but letting everyone make wort and ink IS bad...... very bad.

Akritar · 02-10-2005, 06:55 PM

Well,

I think it's fine and dandy and also way overdue that all crafters can now make their own interims.

I first made a woodworker (now lvl36), then had to go ahead and make alchemist(lvl35 wrots bot) to reduce my overall costs, then had to roll a weaponsmith(lvl29), due to the absence of one on Freeport at the time.

Although making interims is a major improvement to the awful state of the crafters, it still won't fix one of the major isuue we have: NEED.

My woodworker and my weaponsmith were and will remain useless for what they make.

Now, I can pretty much say my alchemist will retire (granted no gerat lost there).

But even so, I will not return to the forge or the woodbench for a good long while. The need just isn't there by players for my items. Making more than 2k arrows, 100+ totems, 70 shields and 50 bows to gain a level, not to mention the instruments that are of no use, or my weaponsmith, being a spike bot for jewelers, I can't do it anymore. And simply being mindless and crafting for hours on end.... Bah, rather go out and kill, move around, spam the /ooc channel for a class that I NEED to team with, for a quest that I NEED to complete, for an item that I NEED to have, for uber status points my guild has a NEED of. These I now want, and also other players want. But nothing my crafters make is sought for, or asked for.

Being useful is what makes people go on, and crafters are still not useful.

Message Edited by Akritar on 02-10-2005 09:02 AM

Introduci · 02-10-2005, 07:04 PM

Akritar,

Let me understand - you are saying that you have 3 crafters. 2 of which have been needed up to this point and the patch will retire 1 (alchemist) character and make 1 (weaponsmith) of your characters longer needed?

Does that not bother you that you spent time on something that SoE is taking away with the patch?

slyfer · 02-10-2005, 07:06 PM

Well it looks like almost every chemist is going to make an alt now with this new patch coming and do something different. I personally am very upset about this. I also like to supply people with wrots and inks. I only make spells and poisons for the extra bonuses.

Well I guess I will get to start my provisioner that I wanted, and my fishing skills are so low.

That would be a good idea to let us change our Tradeskill profession, but I highly doubt that it is going to happen.

StueyMonst · 02-10-2005, 07:10 PM

T3 inks 3gold per stack?.....I can look at any time of the day and am luck to find it 50 silver per ink for pristine. If you have a friend with an Alchemist then I'm sure they'd make it for 3gold, but most are willing to have it sell on the broker over night.

Anyway, this is the same as a lot of things, people complain when they have had it good too long. I decided to make an Alchemist Alt when a reputable one on my server wanted 3 gold per T3 rare ink if I supplied the rares, that's just plain silly.

Quote "Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops" - How you think we fealt with our scrolls?

Alchs are in the same boat as Sages now....they can make their own components for end product Scrolls/Skills and then struggle to sell those on the broker with the Adpet 1 drops in compertition, which is what denotes price.

Evadne · 02-10-2005, 07:13 PM

Independance is a good thing.Some artisan classes were far more independant than others. This change has been begged for. For people who have been on the winning end of the cash game in the tradeskill market of course this seems aweful. But it is a balance. But all of this is still ONLY on Test. Nothing is set in stone yet. The interdependance of the trade classes didn't work out the way they intended. That is the nature of these kinds of games. Balancing over time occurs.

Bookbunny · 02-10-2005, 07:21 PM

Interesting how the Alchemists are upset that they no longer corner the market on components, and Sages are pleased that they can actually craft something other than the final spell combine. Clearly SOE understood the frustration that Sages had a harder time leveling up and had to sink much more coin into the process, and Alchemist are still capable of making money with Scout poisons and Figher upgrades. Make some final products to sell to adventurers, don't depend on cash flow from other artisans buying your components. Something had to change, now we test it. Unfortunately the test won't be long enough to see the longterm effects on the economy.

wulfgarthegreat · 02-10-2005, 07:24 PM

And what about the weaponsmiths? Weapons don't sell becuase of quested stuff is better so they make spikes for jewlers for a profit now jewlers will be able to make them weres that leave the weaponsmith?

Amadalia · 02-10-2005, 07:33 PM

Has anyone confirmed that sages can make their own ink now??? Please please tell me if its been confirmed.

I'm a lvl 28 sage, and I actually asked a friend to go alchy for me jsut so I had a source of inks that wasn't 5g a stack minimum. I pay for inks, I pay for paper, I pay for quills.... I make nothing but the final combine. In no way, in any universe, could ANYONE think this fair on the sage population. Every other tradeskill can make at least ONE component of their combines, and its always the primary component. This is their tradeskill, the primary component SHOULD be made by them so its is strictly 100% their skill at the primary component that determines the quality of the final product as well.

I understand you will have a harder time as an alchy (provided this is true) because you can no longer sell the inks, but I dont think we will all be able to make the WROTs, that will still need to be purchased.

Until I hear from someone exactly what is going on, I wouldn't complain, please understand they are really trying to fix a broken tradeskill. I would hope you could see how broken sages really are.

Baelzharon · 02-10-2005, 07:45 PM

StueyMonster wrote:
T3 inks 3gold per stack?.....I can look at any time of the day and am luck to find it 50 silver per ink for pristine. If you have a friend with an Alchemist then I'm sure they'd make it for 3gold, but most are willing to have it sell on the broker over night.

Anyway, this is the same as a lot of things, people complain when they have had it good too long. I decided to make an Alchemist Alt when a reputable one on my server wanted 3 gold per T3 rare ink if I supplied the rares, that's just plain silly.

Quote "Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops" - How you think we fealt with our scrolls?

Alchs are in the same boat as Sages now....they can make their own components for end product Scrolls/Skills and then struggle to sell those on the broker with the Adpet 1 drops in compertition, which is what denotes price.

I wholesale my ink to a good group of sage clients I gathered. I sell 3-4 stacks at a time to them, and also make all their rare inks for them as well. I have a great time working with them, and supplying them with customers. We had a great thing going, but SoE sees it fit to screw that up. I helped them level up and we all hit T4 together and I have enough components to make 20 stacks of Carmine ink for them... I think once this patch goes live I'll just hand them the stuff and wish them well. I'll miss working with them, and the fun times we had.Thank you SoE for ruining my fun.

Goofinon · 02-10-2005, 07:53 PM

Ooofah. I hope we can't make inks. I'm a sage and inks are a huge pita to make. I gladly buy them thinking of all the time and effort I save just buying them. And I really don't want to make everything for a final combine. I'd like one of the three (ink,paper,quill) but certainly not all three subcomponents.

Any more specifics on how this is actually working on test?

Syn · 02-10-2005, 07:54 PM

I think you all missed an important part of the patch message. The fact that fuels are also going up in price per lvl of what is being crafted. I think that what is happening is that the reliance upon other classes to be able to make your item is going away. (reliance being that you NEED another class to make something so you can produce your final product). With this need removed, players can try to make their own sub-combines so they can craft that final item. The balance here I believe will be that: 1) It will be quite difficult to be able to make the subcombines to a quality that is wanted (pristine etc). This will result in more time spent trying to get the quality you want and the quantity. 2) Increased costs of fuels for higher tier combines coupled with difficulty in crafting subcomponents will encourage players to continue to use the present methods of obtaining the subcombines... that being from fellow players.

This will require tuning over time (which I expect to see on Test). The "new" tradeskills can't be impossibly difficult so that success is too rare (thus driving up costs and time required significantly to make the item and discouraging players from trying to create it on their own). They can't be too easy either, resulting in minimal cost differences to make the same item and removing the desire to purchase from players skilled in a particular craft.

This change, if implemented and balanced correctly will add to the enjoyment factor of the game while not sending current skilled tradeskill players into retirement. There will still be a need for all of you and I am certain that your wares will still be in high demand. This should also bring the prices being charged to these combines into line as well (the prices could go up since fuels cost more now or prices could come down since a player can craft the components at a particular cost assuming average failures). Remember, there is also value in the time saved by purchasing combines instead of going through the motions. This is easily seen already in game. Players would rather spend money purchasing raw harvests than spending time running around collecting them. The time difference will not be as extreme but it will still be there..

Give the new system a try and as always, feedback with your thoughts. I tend to think that the difficulty will be too high to craft in these new trades and we'll see more failures than successes, requiring a lowering of the difficulty. (it's easier to reduce difficulty than to increase it (often thought of as nerfing)).

Baelzharon · 02-10-2005, 08:01 PM

Goofinon wrote:
Ooofah. I hope we can't make inks. I'm a sage and inks are a huge pita to make. I gladly buy them thinking of all the time and effort I save just buying them. And I really don't want to make everything for a final combine. I'd like one of the three (ink,paper,quill) but certainly not all three subcomponents.

Any more specifics on how this is actually working on test?

There are 20 new books on the wholesaler vendor. 4 groups of books, one for each of the new skills. Each group has one book per tier. Thus, when you hit tier 3, you may buy and scribe the four Tier 3 books, which would give you ALL refining and subcomponent recipes. Geomancy covers metals and gemstones. Apothecary covers inks and WORT. Weaving covers basic cloth, thread, padding. I forget the last name, but it covers the basic wood and paper making. So basically every Artisan can make all the sub components. Makes for a lot of fun discovery XP, but also destroys the economy.

Goofinon · 02-10-2005, 08:08 PM

This bites. And after weeks of suffering my pet woodworker was going to hit 30 this week so I could start leveling the sage again. This makes me not even want to bother. I do NOT want to make inks. no no no no. And with this, no one will sell them ever again.

Crap all that work. Could have been adventuring. Bah.

Saeldar · 02-10-2005, 08:22 PM

I stopped doing at level 23 as an armorer because there was too interdependancy...the fact that I had little return business...someone buys a set of armor, I don't see them for 10 levels till they need the final and the competition with dropped armor just killed it for me.But the primary reason I stopped was because of interdepancy by far, and I still think that this change is a mistake. While I wanted reduced dependancy...I for one never asked or wished for total removal of it.I think that each class requiring maybe 1 item from another class to completed their final combine would be enough...and each class making 1 item for another class.So each sub-class has to supply only 1 other class...and be supplied by only 1 other classes...this would have been good...and then only for the final combine...not refine or interim.This change is way overboard in my opinion.

Bookbunny · 02-10-2005, 08:27 PM

Goofinon I think you proved the problem before this patch. The artisan community was intended for crafters to buy supplies from other crafters. Instead, it just created alts. Alts and alts and alts from players who had the time to do it, therefore became self-sufficient and the casual crafter was left out in the cold. And you are exactly right, that time creating an alt to further your main artisan could have been time much better spent adventuring. The "community" system was a fantastic idea, but in implementation it did not work as intended, it only divided the player base.

Then you got into the unbalance issues of artisan classes have differing levels of dependency on other crafters, i.e. Alchemist vs. Sage

I am pleased to see any change, and as a Sage I am particularly pleased to see this one.

Lig · 02-10-2005, 08:34 PM

I agree that the interdependency issue is a tough one to tackle. I think that as long as the subcomponents are more difficult to make for people not specializing in that field it should be fine. Most people will still buy the pristine because it is harder for them to make but if the prices go too high they can after all make their own.

My problem is with the fuel cost. 15sp for 1 T5 combine. Are you people at SOE out of your minds? Can you imagine what a T5 drink will cost now? Who in the world will buy them when you can get much cheaper drinks from vendors? I understand that vendor drinks are MUCH worse than player made but hell just buy T4 player made instead of that T5 store bought. No one will buy the T5 anymore.

Silly silly change IMO. I agree with increasing fuel prices but 15sp per combine is too high.

Myth1184 · 02-10-2005, 08:36 PM

BaruMonkey wrote:

Aenae wrote:

Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's.

As an alchemist, where's my market?

- Aenae

And SWING goes the Nerf Pendulum!

Alchies were making MAJOR cash before this patch, and therefore, obviously, they need to make no money at all for a while. It makes sense to SOE, why does it have to make sense to you, the player?

You obviously dont play an Alchemist

Lig · 02-10-2005, 08:40 PM

Myth1184 wrote:

BaruMonkey wrote:

Aenae wrote:

Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's.

As an alchemist, where's my market?

- Aenae

And SWING goes the Nerf Pendulum!

Alchies were making MAJOR cash before this patch, and therefore, obviously, they need to make no money at all for a while. It makes sense to SOE, why does it have to make sense to you, the player?

You obviously dont play an Alchemist

Oh come on you know you were making boat loads of cash. Play it or not everyone knows you could make tons of money buy selling back to vendors not even selling to players.

Blutzo · 02-10-2005, 08:42 PM

Valderen wrote:I still think that this change is a mistake. While I wanted reduced dependancy...I for one never asked or wished for total removal of it.This change is way overboard in my opinion.

as an armorer i totally agree.the interdependancies are not well balanced.they should be reduced/equalized between the single classes but NOT removed.removing interdependancy completely would hurt the economy and the nice relationships between craftersand would make each of the crafter classes worth less...so SOE should not pull out the big hammer but show us that they also know the word FINE tuning

Baelzharon · 02-10-2005, 08:44 PM

Ligur1 wrote:
Oh come on you know you were making boat loads of cash. Play it or not everyone knows you could make tons of money buy selling back to vendors not even selling to players.

That was nerfed last week, or did you forget? We could "kinda" make money by selling regeants and loam to vendor but that still took 1 oil per combine to do so it was a multiple step combine. Oh well all you other crafters get to have fun making regeants/loam and selling them to vendor now SMILEY

02-10-2005, 08:38 AM	#1
Supafroi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 108	All tradeskill classes can now refine their own materials and components! Are you serious? I almost fainted.... __________________ Fatewalkers Guild Leader Unrest Server

02-10-2005, 11:43 AM	#4
Aenae Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's. As an alchemist, where's my market? - Aenae __________________ - Aenae / Influential

02-10-2005, 12:05 PM	#5
Miral Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 652	I sense a removal of adept 1 drops in the near future. __________________ yes I'm back, on the 7 day return to eq2 trial. to check out what the combat changes finally ended up being.

02-10-2005, 04:56 PM	#7
Humudc Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	Althought this will make my life easier as a Level 21 Sage, being able to make my Own inks and stuff, this is clearly going to nerf the other artisan classes we currently depend on, to get our work done. For example a Level 22 Alchemist friend makes my inks that I can't and I make things he needs. By making everything available to the Sage or Woodworker, there goes any need for interdependency, hence nerfing the classes that supply other classes. Why Nerf the Tradeskillers again? __________________

02-10-2005, 06:55 PM	#11
Akritar Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Well, I think it's fine and dandy and also way overdue that all crafters can now make their own interims. I first made a woodworker (now lvl36), then had to go ahead and make alchemist(lvl35 wrots bot) to reduce my overall costs, then had to roll a weaponsmith(lvl29), due to the absence of one on Freeport at the time. Although making interims is a major improvement to the awful state of the crafters, it still won't fix one of the major isuue we have: NEED. My woodworker and my weaponsmith were and will remain useless for what they make. Now, I can pretty much say my alchemist will retire (granted no gerat lost there). But even so, I will not return to the forge or the woodbench for a good long while. The need just isn't there by players for my items. Making more than 2k arrows, 100+ totems, 70 shields and 50 bows to gain a level, not to mention the instruments that are of no use, or my weaponsmith, being a spike bot for jewelers, I can't do it anymore. And simply being mindless and crafting for hours on end.... Bah, rather go out and kill, move around, spam the /ooc channel for a class that I NEED to team with, for a quest that I NEED to complete, for an item that I NEED to have, for uber status points my guild has a NEED of. These I now want, and also other players want. But nothing my crafters make is sought for, or asked for. Being useful is what makes people go on, and crafters are still not useful. Message Edited by Akritar on 02-10-2005 09:02 AM __________________ Thingies - Level 70 Brigand / 38 Weapons

02-10-2005, 11:34 AM	#2
ChunkyStyl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	"- Four new crafting abilities have been discovered: apothecary, weaving, timbercraft, and geomancy. These skills allow all artisans to refine the materials and components needed to make final products. New recipe books can be found on merchants or scattered throughout Norrath which teach you how to use these skills. Artisans automatically gain 5 points per level in these skills."This implies that we will be able to make all the components for final combines, but we need to actually find all of the recipes before we can use them. I was a little upset when I heard this news, but I guess it's not as bad as I first thought, depending on how it is implemented.

02-10-2005, 11:43 AM	#3
Dimidri General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 89	So basically they want to flood the market faster? Can someone please explain this clearly? I am btw on Test, I just haven't been able to log on... I'm actually doing homework =X sssshhh!

02-10-2005, 04:52 PM	#6
wulfgarthegreat Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	What about the weaponsmith were there main source of income is making spikes becuase of the quested and loot drop weapons. we didn't make much to begin with now we will make nothing

02-10-2005, 05:35 PM	#8
H Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	It would be wonderful to get the perspective of someone who's actually looked at this on the test server rather than just negative speculation. The main factor here is the statement that anyone 'can' make sub-components. It doesn't suggest that everyone will have a desire to do so, based on certain factors, the primary of which is the rate of increase and efficiency of the new skills compared to existing trade skills. If these are significantly lower than the increase within a tradeskill itself, it will still be more efficient for me to get my spikes or ink from someone who specialises in that skill, but if I need just the one, I have the possibility of making it myself if there's no-one around or the price on the market is just too high. Since if the skills are lower, crafting will be either slow or difficult to get pristine, or both, it may not be practical to, as an example, make your own ink if you are a sage. I don't like the idea75 pristine combines to make a stack of ink even with alchemist skills at full efficiency, let alone with new skills that may be less efficient. Thinking about it, even rational speculation on this is relatively pointless - this new system is on test, so really one or all of us should look at exactly how it works there before praising or deriding SOE for their decision. Hat. Edited - "panic-merchants" was perhaps too strong a term. Message Edited by Hat on 02-10-2005 04:48 AM

02-10-2005, 06:34 PM	#9
Baelzharon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 231	I'll be blunt. T3 ink I sell for 3g a stack, T4 ink goes for roughly 9-15g a stack. Those prices are what helps set the spell prices the sages then place on the buyers. Everyone is happy, and App IVs are inline with Adept costs. If Sages can now make their own inks it will destroy that part of the economy. App IVs will flood the market and no one will make much profit specially the Alchemists. 50% of my income came from WROTs (bye bye!) and the other 50% came from supplying inks to Sages I had built up relationships with (bye bye!). Can Alchemists get the option to change their artisan classes? I don't want to make useless potions and poisons for my only way to make money in the game. Give fighter essances to Sages, Potions and Poisons to Provisioners and let us pick a new Artisan class.

02-10-2005, 06:54 PM	#10
Introduci Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5	not that alchemists are good, but letting everyone make wort and ink IS bad...... very bad.

02-10-2005, 07:04 PM	#12
Introduci Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5	Akritar, Let me understand - you are saying that you have 3 crafters. 2 of which have been needed up to this point and the patch will retire 1 (alchemist) character and make 1 (weaponsmith) of your characters longer needed? Does that not bother you that you spent time on something that SoE is taking away with the patch?

02-10-2005, 07:06 PM	#13
slyfer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	Well it looks like almost every chemist is going to make an alt now with this new patch coming and do something different. I personally am very upset about this. I also like to supply people with wrots and inks. I only make spells and poisons for the extra bonuses. Well I guess I will get to start my provisioner that I wanted, and my fishing skills are so low. That would be a good idea to let us change our Tradeskill profession, but I highly doubt that it is going to happen.

02-10-2005, 07:10 PM	#14
StueyMonst Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	T3 inks 3gold per stack?.....I can look at any time of the day and am luck to find it 50 silver per ink for pristine. If you have a friend with an Alchemist then I'm sure they'd make it for 3gold, but most are willing to have it sell on the broker over night. Anyway, this is the same as a lot of things, people complain when they have had it good too long. I decided to make an Alchemist Alt when a reputable one on my server wanted 3 gold per T3 rare ink if I supplied the rares, that's just plain silly. Quote "Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops" - How you think we fealt with our scrolls? Alchs are in the same boat as Sages now....they can make their own components for end product Scrolls/Skills and then struggle to sell those on the broker with the Adpet 1 drops in compertition, which is what denotes price.

02-10-2005, 07:13 PM	#15
Evadne Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 367	Independance is a good thing.Some artisan classes were far more independant than others. This change has been begged for. For people who have been on the winning end of the cash game in the tradeskill market of course this seems aweful. But it is a balance. But all of this is still ONLY on Test. Nothing is set in stone yet. The interdependance of the trade classes didn't work out the way they intended. That is the nature of these kinds of games. Balancing over time occurs. __________________ ~Eva Xeven The Dancing Queen Test Server

02-10-2005, 07:21 PM	#16
Bookbunny Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	Interesting how the Alchemists are upset that they no longer corner the market on components, and Sages are pleased that they can actually craft something other than the final spell combine. Clearly SOE understood the frustration that Sages had a harder time leveling up and had to sink much more coin into the process, and Alchemist are still capable of making money with Scout poisons and Figher upgrades. Make some final products to sell to adventurers, don't depend on cash flow from other artisans buying your components. Something had to change, now we test it. Unfortunately the test won't be long enough to see the longterm effects on the economy. __________________

02-10-2005, 07:24 PM	#17
wulfgarthegreat Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 35	And what about the weaponsmiths? Weapons don't sell becuase of quested stuff is better so they make spikes for jewlers for a profit now jewlers will be able to make them weres that leave the weaponsmith?

02-10-2005, 07:33 PM	#18
Amadalia Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	Has anyone confirmed that sages can make their own ink now??? Please please tell me if its been confirmed. I'm a lvl 28 sage, and I actually asked a friend to go alchy for me jsut so I had a source of inks that wasn't 5g a stack minimum. I pay for inks, I pay for paper, I pay for quills.... I make nothing but the final combine. In no way, in any universe, could ANYONE think this fair on the sage population. Every other tradeskill can make at least ONE component of their combines, and its always the primary component. This is their tradeskill, the primary component SHOULD be made by them so its is strictly 100% their skill at the primary component that determines the quality of the final product as well. I understand you will have a harder time as an alchy (provided this is true) because you can no longer sell the inks, but I dont think we will all be able to make the WROTs, that will still need to be purchased. Until I hear from someone exactly what is going on, I wouldn't complain, please understand they are really trying to fix a broken tradeskill. I would hope you could see how broken sages really are. __________________ http://eq2.onlinewelten.com/siggenv2/signature.php?Id=457>

02-10-2005, 07:45 PM	#19
Baelzharon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 231	StueyMonster wrote: T3 inks 3gold per stack?.....I can look at any time of the day and am luck to find it 50 silver per ink for pristine. If you have a friend with an Alchemist then I'm sure they'd make it for 3gold, but most are willing to have it sell on the broker over night. Anyway, this is the same as a lot of things, people complain when they have had it good too long. I decided to make an Alchemist Alt when a reputable one on my server wanted 3 gold per T3 rare ink if I supplied the rares, that's just plain silly. Quote "Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops" - How you think we fealt with our scrolls? Alchs are in the same boat as Sages now....they can make their own components for end product Scrolls/Skills and then struggle to sell those on the broker with the Adpet 1 drops in compertition, which is what denotes price. I wholesale my ink to a good group of sage clients I gathered. I sell 3-4 stacks at a time to them, and also make all their rare inks for them as well. I have a great time working with them, and supplying them with customers. We had a great thing going, but SoE sees it fit to screw that up. I helped them level up and we all hit T4 together and I have enough components to make 20 stacks of Carmine ink for them... I think once this patch goes live I'll just hand them the stuff and wish them well. I'll miss working with them, and the fun times we had.Thank you SoE for ruining my fun.

02-10-2005, 07:53 PM	#20
Goofinon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 13	Ooofah. I hope we can't make inks. I'm a sage and inks are a huge pita to make. I gladly buy them thinking of all the time and effort I save just buying them. And I really don't want to make everything for a final combine. I'd like one of the three (ink,paper,quill) but certainly not all three subcomponents. Any more specifics on how this is actually working on test?

02-10-2005, 07:54 PM	#21
Syn General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2	I think you all missed an important part of the patch message. The fact that fuels are also going up in price per lvl of what is being crafted. I think that what is happening is that the reliance upon other classes to be able to make your item is going away. (reliance being that you NEED another class to make something so you can produce your final product). With this need removed, players can try to make their own sub-combines so they can craft that final item. The balance here I believe will be that: 1) It will be quite difficult to be able to make the subcombines to a quality that is wanted (pristine etc). This will result in more time spent trying to get the quality you want and the quantity. 2) Increased costs of fuels for higher tier combines coupled with difficulty in crafting subcomponents will encourage players to continue to use the present methods of obtaining the subcombines... that being from fellow players. This will require tuning over time (which I expect to see on Test). The "new" tradeskills can't be impossibly difficult so that success is too rare (thus driving up costs and time required significantly to make the item and discouraging players from trying to create it on their own). They can't be too easy either, resulting in minimal cost differences to make the same item and removing the desire to purchase from players skilled in a particular craft. This change, if implemented and balanced correctly will add to the enjoyment factor of the game while not sending current skilled tradeskill players into retirement. There will still be a need for all of you and I am certain that your wares will still be in high demand. This should also bring the prices being charged to these combines into line as well (the prices could go up since fuels cost more now or prices could come down since a player can craft the components at a particular cost assuming average failures). Remember, there is also value in the time saved by purchasing combines instead of going through the motions. This is easily seen already in game. Players would rather spend money purchasing raw harvests than spending time running around collecting them. The time difference will not be as extreme but it will still be there.. Give the new system a try and as always, feedback with your thoughts. I tend to think that the difficulty will be too high to craft in these new trades and we'll see more failures than successes, requiring a lowering of the difficulty. (it's easier to reduce difficulty than to increase it (often thought of as nerfing)).

02-10-2005, 08:01 PM	#22
Baelzharon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 231	Goofinon wrote: Ooofah. I hope we can't make inks. I'm a sage and inks are a huge pita to make. I gladly buy them thinking of all the time and effort I save just buying them. And I really don't want to make everything for a final combine. I'd like one of the three (ink,paper,quill) but certainly not all three subcomponents. Any more specifics on how this is actually working on test? There are 20 new books on the wholesaler vendor. 4 groups of books, one for each of the new skills. Each group has one book per tier. Thus, when you hit tier 3, you may buy and scribe the four Tier 3 books, which would give you ALL refining and subcomponent recipes. Geomancy covers metals and gemstones. Apothecary covers inks and WORT. Weaving covers basic cloth, thread, padding. I forget the last name, but it covers the basic wood and paper making. So basically every Artisan can make all the sub components. Makes for a lot of fun discovery XP, but also destroys the economy.

02-10-2005, 08:08 PM	#23
Goofinon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 13	This bites. And after weeks of suffering my pet woodworker was going to hit 30 this week so I could start leveling the sage again. This makes me not even want to bother. I do NOT want to make inks. no no no no. And with this, no one will sell them ever again. Crap all that work. Could have been adventuring. Bah.

02-10-2005, 08:22 PM	#24
Saeldar Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	I stopped doing at level 23 as an armorer because there was too interdependancy...the fact that I had little return business...someone buys a set of armor, I don't see them for 10 levels till they need the final and the competition with dropped armor just killed it for me.But the primary reason I stopped was because of interdepancy by far, and I still think that this change is a mistake. While I wanted reduced dependancy...I for one never asked or wished for total removal of it.I think that each class requiring maybe 1 item from another class to completed their final combine would be enough...and each class making 1 item for another class.So each sub-class has to supply only 1 other class...and be supplied by only 1 other classes...this would have been good...and then only for the final combine...not refine or interim.This change is way overboard in my opinion.

02-10-2005, 08:27 PM	#25
Bookbunny Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	Goofinon I think you proved the problem before this patch. The artisan community was intended for crafters to buy supplies from other crafters. Instead, it just created alts. Alts and alts and alts from players who had the time to do it, therefore became self-sufficient and the casual crafter was left out in the cold. And you are exactly right, that time creating an alt to further your main artisan could have been time much better spent adventuring. The "community" system was a fantastic idea, but in implementation it did not work as intended, it only divided the player base. Then you got into the unbalance issues of artisan classes have differing levels of dependency on other crafters, i.e. Alchemist vs. Sage I am pleased to see any change, and as a Sage I am particularly pleased to see this one. __________________

02-10-2005, 08:34 PM	#26
Lig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	I agree that the interdependency issue is a tough one to tackle. I think that as long as the subcomponents are more difficult to make for people not specializing in that field it should be fine. Most people will still buy the pristine because it is harder for them to make but if the prices go too high they can after all make their own. My problem is with the fuel cost. 15sp for 1 T5 combine. Are you people at SOE out of your minds? Can you imagine what a T5 drink will cost now? Who in the world will buy them when you can get much cheaper drinks from vendors? I understand that vendor drinks are MUCH worse than player made but hell just buy T4 player made instead of that T5 store bought. No one will buy the T5 anymore. Silly silly change IMO. I agree with increasing fuel prices but 15sp per combine is too high.

02-10-2005, 08:36 PM	#27
Myth1184 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	BaruMonkey wrote: Aenae wrote: Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's. As an alchemist, where's my market? - Aenae And SWING goes the Nerf Pendulum! Alchies were making MAJOR cash before this patch, and therefore, obviously, they need to make no money at all for a while. It makes sense to SOE, why does it have to make sense to you, the player? You obviously dont play an Alchemist

02-10-2005, 08:40 PM	#28
Lig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	Myth1184 wrote: BaruMonkey wrote: Aenae wrote: Does this mean that everyone can make their own chems? If so, my market as an alchemist just totally crashed and burned. My only products are chems, ink, poisons / potions, and fighter skills. If people make their own chems and ink, then what have I got left? Poisons and potions are extremely expensive to make, even more so now, in fact they are so expensive that they don't sell except for very special occasions. Fighter skills don't sell hardly at all because there are a jillion adept drops, or people decide to wait for Adept-3's. As an alchemist, where's my market? - Aenae And SWING goes the Nerf Pendulum! Alchies were making MAJOR cash before this patch, and therefore, obviously, they need to make no money at all for a while. It makes sense to SOE, why does it have to make sense to you, the player? You obviously dont play an Alchemist Oh come on you know you were making boat loads of cash. Play it or not everyone knows you could make tons of money buy selling back to vendors not even selling to players.

02-10-2005, 08:42 PM	#29
Blutzo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 63	Valderen wrote:I still think that this change is a mistake. While I wanted reduced dependancy...I for one never asked or wished for total removal of it.This change is way overboard in my opinion. as an armorer i totally agree.the interdependancies are not well balanced.they should be reduced/equalized between the single classes but NOT removed.removing interdependancy completely would hurt the economy and the nice relationships between craftersand would make each of the crafter classes worth less...so SOE should not pull out the big hammer but show us that they also know the word FINE tuning __________________ Berserker 59 - Armorer 60 Warden 40 - Woodworker 60 Dirge 40 - Carpenter 60 Bruiser 30 - Alchemist 60 Ranger 28

02-10-2005, 08:44 PM	#30
Baelzharon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 231	Ligur1 wrote: Oh come on you know you were making boat loads of cash. Play it or not everyone knows you could make tons of money buy selling back to vendors not even selling to players. That was nerfed last week, or did you forget? We could "kinda" make money by selling regeants and loam to vendor but that still took 1 oil per combine to do so it was a multiple step combine. Oh well all you other crafters get to have fun making regeants/loam and selling them to vendor now