Anyone Else Tired of Tank Classes Outdamaging Assassins/Casters

[Kimira]

   I'm a lvl 50 Assassin and all the tanks I group with can all outdamage me by 50-100 dps.  Excluding guardians.  So they get to tank, heavy armor, and palis get heals.  On top of that they have the best DPS in the game.  Now there's just something wrong with that.

  There's an easy fix for this, and that is to give our 3 main DD attacks a faster reuse. Talking about condemning blade, assassinate and Bloodthirster.  I don't want a nerf to tanks, but I want a buff to assassins, anyone else seeing this flaw in the game? 

(This problem only starts being obvious after lvl 42+)

 

 

Message Edited by Kimirahi on 02-11-2005 10:30 AM

[BoneM]

 

well reues timer increase for sure on the 5 min recast.. thats to much time to wait.. also when you are 50 you have to wait 3600 seconds to use a big damage spell which is more like a fluff spell because u have to wait an hour to use it again..

 

Who cares if you can outdamage everone once an hour.. our whole points of being a scout class is to do it every fight.. not once an hour.. recast timeer on assassination should be 3 to 4 min .. not 1 hour.. and our condeming blade line lowerd to 1 minute.. considering it does low damage also.. .

 

 

Bigest thing that i see wrong is this

 

My Adept3 bloodthirster and adept 3 punch blade do the same or less damage as murderous blade which was only app3... So what gives.. These are obiviously broken

 

other spells lingerblow... infected wound.. and garrote all look like they are underdamage from where they should be..

 

Major problems like the previous poster said..... Zerkers and monks and even Shadowknights can outdamage us.. conistantly doing upwards of 300 dps .. vs our mesly 110 to 140..

 

I feel like quiting every day becuase this game is catered to crafters

 

I cant even barly get over a few plat then im back down to 30 gold after buying spells..

 

At 50 there is no way to earn money short of spending countles hours hopeing i get a rare which i cant sell anyway becuase my guild will need it.. So where does that leave me? Broke ..

 

Take up crafting.. hell no.. so dam boring..

 

Adventures need sources of income.. better loot or sellable items to venders upwards of 20 to 30 gold.. or how the hell can we fund ourselves..

 

 

Sony you need to rethink this game or many will leave ...... Stop centering your upgrades on Spells .. No one can see if you have a better spell so theres no AWE FACTOR... in eq one we coudl see the improved armor adn weapons beacuse everything was more unique... EVery class had specific armor that was made for them.. VS the way it is now that everyoen can wear pretty much any amor that is .. heavy medium etc.. this is the easy way out.. the most boring way .. and thats why sony chose it... so they coudl save time.... Assassins need better weapons to keep up with tanks using the CRook.. .. WE dont have items that can compair to this dps.. which is unfair.. where are our items.. and spells that do good damage.. atm we have none

 

All items are exactly the same with a few minor plus and minus stats here and there.. how boring.. make stats meaning full and not go overboard on each stat and just increase the numbers......every tier..

 

 

 

No one wants to use the same spell line for all 50 levels.. they are the most boring thing you coudl have thought of... Where is the originality like EQ1.. This game needs some help and i dont mind sharing my ideas but they seem never to be read or responded to.. I have so many more but no one seems to care.

[Valkh]

Both of these posts just blow my mind. Hold on, let me get some cheese for your whine.

[Kimira]

---

Valkhar wrote:

Both of these posts just blow my mind. Hold on, let me get some cheese for your whine.

---

 

Are you an Assassin?  If not and you're a tank I'm not clalling for a tank nerf at all.  Just a big increase in Assassin/Wizard/Warlock DPS.  It's badly needed if you actually played the game, and ran combat stats all the time.

[sorav]

You must suck at playing your assassin, I have none of these problems. Please don't post stupid things and waste the legitimate part of the assassin comunities time.

[BiggilusE]

hes probably using apprentice 1's or something, i find it very hard to believe this post

[Warus]

stop running parsers and just play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class

[SoloranFirebay]

as an assassin i don't find this to be the issue at all

I have a problem not taking agro, so i know i do more damage

[BoneM]

BTW I have adept3s on almost all the good spells.. level 49 punch blade...Bloodthirster etc... and they do less or the same damage as the older spells i had when i was level 30s...  So I know what im talking bout..... Our spells are broke

[batter_then]

i see thr problem here you just should have made a brigand instead so much better with ruse and other brigandish things...

 

assassins suck

[Sarevh]

i can outdamage anyone if i try hard enough. its not that hard to do just need a good weapon.thats kinda what we are made for, annihalating(sp?) single mobs.

[Kimira]

I see you guys posting that are calling me [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are still under 40.  Which I should have said In my orginal post, at higher lvls tanks are the kings of DPS*.  You'll notice around lvl 42+ you will lose to a zerker/sk/pali around your lvl.  If you don't it's when condemning blade is up. 

 

It's not that I suck at my class, I am considered a very "skilled" assassin and I burn the mobs HP as fast and efficient as I can.  I will enjoy reading your guys [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] post if changes have not been made, by the time you're around my level!

[batter_then]

i have never seen a assassin/ranger out damage me i am a brigand so there hahaha they do to suck..

[WhispersEdge]

Ive been saying this forever Kimir, and those are the same responses I get. We obviously don't know how to play our class /yawn.

 

Batter, yea I haven't been able to group with a 50 brig yet but 50 Swashes are usually around the same damage. It's easy to see how bruisers are outdamaging us when you just look at the max weapon damage. Look up a pristine t5 ebon mace versus a sabre or other poker of similar delay. The max damage is around 30-40 per hit less, considering how much normal melee dmg is a part of overall damage that adds up to a huge amount, especially in long fights when you are out of power.

[Sarevh]

---

WhispersEdge wrote:

The max damage is around 30-40 per hit less

---

isnt that what our poisons are supposed to cover? but ive heard that 40+ poisons are resisted alot so i guess thats a moot point.

[sorav]

Uhhh I'm level 44, I think I know what I'm talking about. I have none of the issues you're talking about so please... Stop whining and start playing.

[WhispersEdge]

---

Sarevhok wrote:

---

WhispersEdge wrote:

The max damage is around 30-40 per hit less

---

isnt that what our poisons are supposed to cover? but ive heard that 40+ poisons are resisted alot so i guess thats a moot point.

---

Well, first off, I havent had poison land on anything that was green or higher since about lvl 40. Secondly, weapon damage counts each hit, poison doesn't come close to comparing to how much weapon damage we lose every time we score a hit, but yes the resists are a big problem. I'm fine with bruisers doing the damage they do, I just think most scout classes should be doing a lot more than we are now comparatively. I think once the devs take a look at the damage between classes they will be pretty surprised at how far scouts are laggging behind, especially assassins and rangers, who are the most offensive (no pun intended) of the bunch.

 

[Oidan]

So this is level 40+ ? I cant comment on that just quite yet but in the 30's my data is not showing this. Do you use your bow skills? Just asking .

[Mol]

---

soravok wrote:
Uhhh I'm level 44, I think I know what I'm talking about. I have none of the issues you're talking about so please... Stop whining and start playing.

---

Im sorry but if someone brings an issue to the board they think is legit you dont [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing flame them for it [Removed for Content], just read it and make your own mind up, if it is an issue, lets hope the devs see it and do something about it, if not then nothing will be done. Personally i have heard many assassins 45+ complain about this and the fact that currently a good zerker will out tank and out dps all scouts at 50.

 

I can certainly see a divide already at 30 while killing crabs on EL beach, seeing as my frontal dps isnt that good and my tanking is nowhere near as good as bruisers i have alot more downtime then my lvl 29 bruiser friend who chews through them with ease.

[Mol]

In the above post forget to add that imo we are crap soloers due to us requireing position for max dps, surely we should make up for this with far greater dps then tanks. Big hits every 5 minutes does not make a DPS class imo, we need high sustained dps.

[BoneM]

Very True Molak..

 

when a tank outdamages us.. consistantly over 2 x much damage.. then there is a huge problem

 

our damage needs to be increasedd 3 x just to do better then a tank... Will this happen.. doubtful.

 

 

Reuse timers need to be lowerd.. and our overall damage needs to be increased..

 

either increase our weapon damage or have bigger hits via our abilities..

 

[-Steppenwolf-]

I think riposte on multiple mobs is what makes tank dps look so great. On a single mob, there is no way a tank will outdamage a scout. If the tank is not tanking (thus not riposting) it's even worse.So if you want to parse stuff, please parse correctly... and parse data obtained on one similar mob, in the same situation.

[Oidan]

Some classes will just flat out be better at soloing that other classes. Why anyone would want to solo is beyond me because the yield in experiece is just horrid. Get a grp, much more fun and the loot is 10 times better anyways.

[Mol]

While i agree with you on the xp rate Oidan, I often solo while im lfg, and lets not forget soloing is a big part of the game too, if it wasnt why bother putting solo mobs in, the game must deal with both forms of experience gain.

 

Hadn't thought about reposte damage adding to the tanks tally, but can it really account for that big a DPS increase?

[Kimira]

---

-Steppenwolf- wrote:
I think riposte on multiple mobs is what makes tank dps look so great. On a single mob, there is no way a tank will outdamage a scout. If the tank is not tanking (thus not riposting) it's even worse.
So if you want to parse stuff, please parse correctly... and parse data obtained on one similar mob, in the same situation.

---

Nah, they still outdamage you.  The only way to outdamage a good Zerk/Sk/Pali/bruiser around your lvl is if condemning blade is up, and then it's just barely beating them.

[Trei]

Relax hehe..All will evened up when the PvP part of the game gets into play.But one thing I disagree on so far in this thread is of lowering re-use timer on our big-hitter arts. Their damage should be increased instead.By a lot.Otherwise there wouldn't be much difference in class characteristics between the two DD classes (assn/ranger , brig/bucky) Right now I feel that not only are our attacks dependent on stealth, we are just as positional-dependent as the brigs and buckys.Yet the DPS difference is marginal at best.edit: oh yeah another reason why sometimes tanks get higher dps is cuz while they just tab to their next target and start to wack immediately, alotta times they end up turning a full 180deg if that next tabbed target was behind them etc.We then need to reposition ourselves again, and again, and again, and that can often screw up the accuracy of dps parsing also.

Message Edited by Trei49 on 01-24-2005 06:47 AM

[Darqz]

Guys,

   I don't to add fuel to a fire or have anyone thing that I'm flaming them but I'll say this.  I've played both an SK and now an Assassin.  I also run parsers every time I play.  Most times I let my group know, sometimes I don't.  The reason for not letting them know is just to see how people play without knowing they are being parsed.  I can honestly say that some people just can't play thier classes.  There have been times that I've been in a group with equal level Assassing/Brigands/Rogues and out damaged them even though they bragged that they already had thier skills upgraded and such.  I've also been in groups where I was constantly outdamaged.  I've played with similar tank classes and experienced the same thing. 

  With this being said it is true parsers don't do justice to the game.  They give a "rough" idea of what the game is doing.  There are many factors that need to be considered.  Stats, Equipment, and Skills are important.   Alot of other classes think that our poisons do a huge damage to our DPS and at times they do.  Having something proc 130pts dd and 50dot is Very helpful but not consistant.  You could proc the poison 5xs in a fight or none at all.  Bruisers and Zerkers are doing constant damage through out the fight with Spikes of high damage similar to ours.  For example a Bruiser's hundred hands slap is 8x at around 60pts damage (480 points of damage) that is on a fast reuse timer.  They have other things such as sucker punch that allows them to hit for 250 ever few shots in a fight.  This is all constant without a constant repositioning.  Also all scout classes that I've grouped with (if I'm wrong please correct me) needs to be in position and requires some skills to be in hiding for it to work.  While this is what allows us to do HEAVY and Devastating damage it also takes some time to set up, which makes sense from the development of the game even though we have longer reuse timers than say a bruiser or zerker.  I can easily pull off two Heavy shots and pull back a few feet to knock out a few arrows and do a ton of damage from the beginning of a fight.  Do I do this right off the bat?  No.  Mainly because I don't want to get agro till the tank has agro, so with this being said I can consider the first few seconds of the fight lost to positioning and agro gain.

  Yet with my poisons and my skills I still usually climb up to the top of my group or near the top on single fights.  On multiple fights I'm still near the top if not the top if I'm in a good group that doesn't ping pong the mob.  Now from a tank side (my SK) I can honestly say there are very few times that I've ever outdamaged a scout that knew how to play his/her class.  The times that I did and the scout new how to play thier class is because I used Harm Touch with adept upgrades.  I am usually good about keeping my weapons on both my classes up there but I still feel the SK class is a shell of what it use to be in EQ1.  (Thats a personal view not anything other than that).  I've seen at higher levels though Zerkers and Bruisers do MASSIVE damage.  On a whole this is how they gain agro and keep it.  Zerkers will do a constant high damage on groups of 3 or more than an assassin.  This is not because we are weak, but that the fact they are doing 350-600 point shots to 3 or 4 mobs at a time.  Cycle through these skills and by the end of the fight they have done like 48,000 pts of damage.  Ok my numbers may be off and exagerated but you get my point. 

  The biggest problem I see with this game and the classes is that everyone has preconceptions.  I can't blame you.  I do too.  I honestly believe that each Class should have its own subsets of priorities.  Each class whether it be fighter,scout,healer,mage should have a particular subset that does high damage, a particular subset that does utility, a particular subset thats defensive, etc.  I consider myself to be a decent player who knows his classes that he plays fairly well.  I took an SK to be a utility tank.  I didn't expect SKs to do the damage of Bruisers/Monks or even be able to hold agro the way of Gaurians/Zerkers.  I took the Assassin class to be an extreme damage dealer.  I didn't expect to be the highest DPS because thats what the Mage classes are for.  Yes I expect to be outdamaged by any class at some point because I may not have been at the top of my game.  Yes I expect to be one of the highest DPS of the game.  Honestly the way DPS should go is : Mage, Scout, Fighter, Healer.  For those lurkers that claim assassin's can off tank in higher levels.  Yes you are kind of right with that.  If we have really nice Fey armor or such we can do an off tank for a Short while, but scouts were never designed to be tanks and we will never be tanks.  The same way a Mage can avoid some hits and take a few but it couldn't tank.

  So how do we fix it without saying "Play your class better" or "un-nerf" my class?  Well, and this is just my proposal, is that we Raise the Damage of Mage classes.  That being said lower the damage mitigation of fighter classes.  Yes Fighters are suppose to be the big tanks that do heavy damage.  I don't want to see them not do that heavy damage, but at the same time I don't want to be in a group just to disarm traps and cause escape from a group.  If I wanted to be a support class I would have taken a troubador.  Again, I can do some major damage and like the fact that I can, but if at higher levels (40+) fighters are constantly keeping up with damage of scouts, that sounds disheartening for sombody like me who is just starting to get into the higher levels of the game. 

 

 

Message Edited by Darqzen on 01-24-2005 09:42 AM

Message Edited by Darqzen on 01-24-2005 09:42 AM

[Gilgam]

Look, if you aren't 40+ you have no clue what you're talking about. There is a serious problem with how damage is scaling up now. As an assassin I can say I peaked at around level 30. At that point I was probably the highest dps class(where we should be as a purely offensive scout). As an assassin your job is to do damage. You don't get group buffs, you don't get any of the other utility a rogue or bard class scout does. You are purely damage. The initial surprise was how rogues were outdamaging me around level 40. That was annoying, but I could deal with it, just a small adjustment and things would be how they should be. The real problem arises when you see that as we level up through the 40s our(scouts) comparitive dps does not scale up like the fighters. This is a serious problem. If tanks get a higher hitpoint level, more and better tanking abilities, and do more damage, what exactly is the role of a scout 45+? This problem spreads to mages as well. There has to be a collossal increase in the power of mages and scouts(unlikely) or a major nerf to fighters. The problem seems to be twofold from what I can gather. Scout skills 40+ do not scale up like fighters skills, and the statistics of a weapon in the hands of a fighter are much better than the same weapon in the hand of a scout. Why is this the case? This is not baseless whining, it is a serious issue that is a major problem when half your playerbase is effectively working at half what their abilities should be.

 

Gilg

[Darqz]

Gil,

  What your is saying has alot of validity.  After all who would want to play a class that is basically a paperweight when you can go for a class that has it all?  What alot of people don't realize or don't want to admit to is that this game is about balance.  Yes we all want to have a great and super uber class that makes us bad as can be and desired by all.  After all who ever wanted to be considered the weakest link or benched when we were playing football?  But at the same time we can not expect to be the best of all worlds.  As far as melee goes we were designed to be the best of the melee classes as far as DPS and overall damage.  We were no way ever designed to be a tank or even outdamage mages.  This being said, the gap between Scouts and Fighter should only get larger as the levels increase not being reversed.  What I would like to know though is how many other 40+ scouts are experiencing this same problem?  Also how many of your abilities do you have that are Adept or Master?  I'm not trying to point the finger at you my fellow assassin but I just want to know what the playing field is that I have to look forward to. 

 

Please let us know

[Reol]

---

Kimirahi wrote:

   I'm a lvl 46 Assassin and all the tanks I group with can all outdamage me by 50-100 dps.  Excluding guardians.  So they get to tank, heavy armor, and palis get heals.  On top of that they have the best DPS in the game.  Now there's just something wrong with that.

  There's an easy fix for this, and that is to give our 3 main DD attacks a faster reuse. Talking about condemning blade, assassinate and Bloodthirster.  I don't want a nerf to tanks, but I want a buff to assassins, anyone else seeing this flaw in the game? 

Message Edited by Kimirahi on 01-22-2005 06:59 PM

---

If there wasn't a problem with DPS then SOE wouldn't be re evaluating all dps for ALL classes now would they.......there is a problem and unfortunately soe seems to be leaning towards complete and utter change to dps , which IMO compiled with other changes will make alot of classes obsolete, IMO.

However there IS a DPS problem and YES SOE is looking into it, Moorgard has posted it already..