Adorments & Bows?

[Balerius]

To the best of my knowledge, there are only two transmuted adornments that can be placed on bows:

Enchanted Sinew---Treasured---Woodworker--- +14 slashing damage

Strengthened Sinew---Treasured---Woodworker--- +14 piercing damage

(Note:  Adornments may be normalized to 3 secs...so an adorment on a bow may do +28 damage.  Need to verify.)

As for the tinkered adornments that were in Beta, either they're out of the live game or no one has found the recipes.  Which kind of sucks since there are a ton of nice high damage adornments for dual wield, one-hand, and 2-hand melee weapons; not to mention some really high damage adornments for throwing weapons.  It seems that ONLY bows are so limited both in number of adornments and in the amount of damage they can do.

Message Edited by Balerius on 11-20-2006 07:25 PM

[z3oslo]

hm, what about this one?

Fabled                           Judicious Easyloader                           Tailor                                     increases thrown/ranged dps by 10.0

This will be my pick if it works.

[Zholain]

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z3oslo wrote:

hm, what about this one?

Fabled                           Judicious Easyloader                           Tailor                                     increases thrown/ranged dps by 10.0

This will be my pick if it works.

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You may want to verify the description.  I think that's the same one I was looking at last night, and it specifically said "thrown weapon".

[z3oslo]

I used the info from this thread.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tansmuting&message.id=627

 

 

[Zholain]

Well, I only recommend to verify it before you expend the resources.  I was about "this close" (holding thumb and index finger very close together) to getting this adornment last night...until I read the description more closely.  I hope it does work on a bow....but I sure wasn't going to spend the coin without having it verified.

[Mronin]

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Zholain wrote:Well, I only recommend to verify it before you expend the resources.  I was about "this close" (holding thumb and index finger very close together) to getting this adornment last night...until I read the description more closely.  I hope it does work on a bow....but I sure wasn't going to spend the coin without having it verified.

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I was in the same boat the other night and after reading the description I decided to pass on it. These things are extremely expensive right now and to buy one and not have it work is potentially disastrous for my toons ever thinning wallet. Given how it reads though I'm about 98% sure that it would only work on bandoleer or something that is used with thrown weapons. Now if someone want's to be generous and give me 10pp that this thing costs I'll be more than happy to give it a try .

[TerriBlades]

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Balerius wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, there are only two transmuted adornments that can be placed on bows:

Enchanted Sinew---Treasured---Woodworker--- +14 slashing damage

Strengthened Sinew---Treasured---Woodworker--- +14 piercing damage

(Note:  Adornments may be normalized to 3 secs...so an adorment on a bow may do +28 damage.  Need to verify.)

As for the tinkered adornments that were in Beta, either they're out of the live game or no one has found the recipes.  Which kind of sucks since there are a ton of nice high damage adornments for dual wield, one-hand, and 2-hand melee weapons; not to mention some really high damage adornments for throwing weapons.  It seems that ONLY bows are so limited both in number of adornments and in the amount of damage they can do.

Message Edited by Balerius on 11-20-2006 07:25 PM

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I havent adorned my bow in Live yet, but I cat tell you that when I had my adornment on my bow in beta, +14 was just that. An extra 14 points of damage. Trying hard to remember now if this worked in conjunction with CAs or just off AutoAttacks.

[Wil81115]

its only +12 as of last night on live.. so i got the +12 piercing adornment on my Heartstinger. I think it only raised my base damage, if thats the case it will effect auto attack.

/sigh another nice screwing.. (compared to the +10 dps mod for a THROWN weapon only)

thx SoE, your the Best! :smileytongue:

[Zholain]

I wound up getting one of the 'el cheapo' adornments that adds +12 slashing damage just to try it out.  It appears to be a flat 12 damage added to all attacks...meaning auto-attack and CA's.  The log entry reads like 'Your Triple Volley hits x for 1135 piercing damage and 12 slashing damage.' or 'You hit x for 1342 piercing damage and 12 slashing damage.' in the case of auto-attack.  So it's basically an extra 12 damage added to everything that uses your bow.  Yeah, it's extra damage, but honestly I'd like to see it bumped up a bit.  +12 just isn't enough to have a significant impact on dps.  Granted, it's the treasured version, but still....Also I looked at the easyloader items again last night.  The description reads 'This item may be used to adorn a thrown ranged weapon.'  No slash, 'or', or anything else.  This indicates to me that it is for thrown weapons only.  I sure wish that SOE had been more clear in some of their descriptions, but then again I guess we all know that historically they have not done a good job on some of their item descriptions.

[TerriBlades]

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Wil81115 wrote:

its only +12 as of last night on live.. so i got the +12 piercing adornment on my Heartstinger. I think it only raised my base damage, if thats the case it will effect auto attack.

/sigh another nice screwing.. (compared to the +10 dps mod for a THROWN weapon only)

thx SoE, your the Best! :smileytongue:

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I'd hardly say we received another "nice screwing". There are (or at least were in beta) other haste/dps mods that I recall seeing that worked on other pieces of gear as well as the waist adornment that adds a ranged crit chance by 1-2%? Only a week into EoF, its quite possible we havent seen everything yet :smileytongue:

[Balerius]

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TerriBlades wrote:

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Wil81115 wrote:

its only +12 as of last night on live.. so i got the +12 piercing adornment on my Heartstinger. I think it only raised my base damage, if thats the case it will effect auto attack.

/sigh another nice screwing.. (compared to the +10 dps mod for a THROWN weapon only)

thx SoE, your the Best! :smileytongue:

---

I'd hardly say we received another "nice screwing". There are (or at least were in beta) other haste/dps mods that I recall seeing that worked on other pieces of gear as well as the waist adornment that adds a ranged crit chance by 1-2%? Only a week into EoF, its quite possible we havent seen everything yet :smileytongue:

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No, we have seen everything in EoF.  At least everything that is commonly available.

And what's available for bows is two adornments...that do a whopping +12 damage per hit.  That's compared to 20+ adornments for melee weapons, some of which do the same +12 damage per hit....but the weapons hit 2-4 times as often, and some of which have various procs that do 300+ damage per proc.  Not to mention the dps mods available on thrown weapons.

It's only bows that have such mediocre weapon adornments.  It's only rangers who rely heavily on bows for their dps.  It's mainly rangers who are impacted by this lack of adornments.  I'd call that a screwing.

Now it may be that there are some very rare "master level" bow adornment recipes somewhere that drop from epic raid mobs.  I doubt it since none have been seen thus far, but I suppose it's possible.  But then, you have to ask yourself, why should decent adornments for bows (if they actually exist) only come from recipes off of such epic mobs....when every other weapon and class gets decent adornments from the commonly dropped enigma books?

[TerriBlades]

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Balerius wrote:

No, we have seen everything in EoF.  At least everything that is commonly available.

And what's available for bows is two adornments...that do a whopping +12 damage per hit.  That's compared to 20+ adornments for melee weapons, some of which do the same +12 damage per hit....but the weapons hit 2-4 times as often, and some of which have various procs that do 300+ damage per proc.  Not to mention the dps mods available on thrown weapons.

It's only bows that have such mediocre weapon adornments.  It's only rangers who rely heavily on bows for their dps.  It's mainly rangers who are impacted by this lack of adornments.  I'd call that a screwing.

Now it may be that there are some very rare "master level" bow adornment recipes somewhere that drop from epic raid mobs.  I doubt it since none have been seen thus far, but I suppose it's possible.  But then, you have to ask yourself, why should decent adornments for bows (if they actually exist) only come from recipes off of such epic mobs....when every other weapon and class gets decent adornments from the commonly dropped enigma books?

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Heaven forbid. Its easy to sit back and say that +12 v/s a 300+ proc (Im not sure which proc your talking about here, but we'll work with it) isnt balanced. And Im sure it isnt, but not to the great uproar that you make it out to be. On a rounded up average off autoattack alone (i havent tested this yet to see if it procs with CAs or not) using an 8s delay bow, with self buffed haste + DT amulet  (68 haste) I'll autoattack once every 4.8 seconds.. so well just call it 5s. So every min I'll get an extra 144 damage. This also scaled up depending on how much haste you have. How often does that 300+ proc go off? An average of 1 per min?  Should it be doubled? Prolly, is it really going to make that huge an impact? Not likely.

As long as we are dealing with numbers.. lets take it 1 step further. that 144 extra damage is going to net rangers a whole 2.4 dps. Exciting I know. Now even if this 300+ proc was 350 and procs every min like its supposed to thats a net increase of... hold on.. wait for it...  5.8 dps. Id hardly call those number game breaking. You'd be better off with the DPS mod on your neck, and every avail str or int mod you could get.

As for putting a DPS mod on thrown weapons?!?! And? You can just as easily adorn your neckpiece with a DPS adornment and get the same effect so thats really a non issue.

And lets not forget theres that whole 1% increase to ranged crit on the buckle!!

If you ask me, the adornments were thrown in as a way to make your toon slightly different then the next toon, not to add uber dps through mods.

[Lev]

most procs are standarized to 1.7 per minute or 1.8 per minute. And I agree the difference is not that HUGE, and we do have all the other slots as every other class. Nesse you do however debate yourself a bit. saying that adornments are there to make you a bit different from the next player (I agree), however you wont look far for a ranger with the same adornment as you, seeing as there exist 2??? can't be right thats the same as saying no customizeability at all. And as long as we are talking the sum of 10-20 extra dmg per shot (not affecting CAs?) I doubt I will ever get one, seems pointless. So in the end the fact that the effect is not uber is not as bad as some come here saying (none of the effects, except maybe the power and mind effects for armor are very giving), it is however sad that we as of now see no difference in bow adornments, no choice.. it's either 12ekstra dmg or it's not.. seriously pierce or slash will do minimal effect. The elemental/magic/mental ones were cooler, or give us stats.. anything just give us a [Removed for Content] choice

Message Edited by RabbitFly on 11-23-2006 08:16 AM

[Balerius]

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TerriBlades wrote:

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Balerius wrote:

No, we have seen everything in EoF.  At least everything that is commonly available.

And what's available for bows is two adornments...that do a whopping +12 damage per hit.  That's compared to 20+ adornments for melee weapons, some of which do the same +12 damage per hit....but the weapons hit 2-4 times as often, and some of which have various procs that do 300+ damage per proc.  Not to mention the dps mods available on thrown weapons.

It's only bows that have such mediocre weapon adornments.  It's only rangers who rely heavily on bows for their dps.  It's mainly rangers who are impacted by this lack of adornments.  I'd call that a screwing.

Now it may be that there are some very rare "master level" bow adornment recipes somewhere that drop from epic raid mobs.  I doubt it since none have been seen thus far, but I suppose it's possible.  But then, you have to ask yourself, why should decent adornments for bows (if they actually exist) only come from recipes off of such epic mobs....when every other weapon and class gets decent adornments from the commonly dropped enigma books?

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Heaven forbid. Its easy to sit back and say that +12 v/s a 300+ proc (Im not sure which proc your talking about here, but we'll work with it) [As some examples since you seem to be unaware:  For slashing weapons: there are adornment procs for doing : 312 DD cold damage, a DoT for 275 heat instant plus 30 dmg/5 sec, one for 312 divine damage plus heals caster for 42; for piercing weapons:  a 366 magic DD, a poison DoT that ticks for 100 poison/5 secs, a disease DD for 312 damage] isnt balanced. And Im sure it isnt, but not to the great uproar that you make it out to be. On a rounded up average off autoattack alone (i havent tested this yet to see if it procs with CAs or not) using an 8s delay bow, with self buffed haste + DT amulet  (68 haste) I'll autoattack once every 4.8 seconds.. so well just call it 5s. So every min I'll get an extra 144 damage. This also scaled up depending on how much haste you have. How often does that 300+ proc go off? An average of 1 per min?  [IIRC the stated frequency is every 1.8 secs] Should it be doubled? Prolly, is it really going to make that huge an impact? Not likely.

As long as we are dealing with numbers.. lets take it 1 step further. that 144 extra damage is going to net rangers a whole 2.4 dps. Exciting I know. Now even if this 300+ proc was 350 and procs every min like its supposed to thats a net increase of... hold on.. wait for it...  5.8 dps. Id hardly call those number game breaking.

Lets use some better numbers:

Bow (your numbers): 144 damage per min for 2.4 dps

Melee Proc adornments (lets use the 366 Magic DD one): 366dmg x 1.8 proc/min = 659 dmg/min  x 2 (you have two melee weapons) = 1318 dmg/min = 22 dps  Now also you need to realize that this 22 dps is a minimum.  The procs will be higher based on your INT

Melee damage adornments:  +12 damage each (just like for bow).  Assume a conservative haste that makes your 1.6 sec delay weapons swing every second.  That's 12 damage per sec x 2 weapons so 24 dps.  And I'm not even counting double attack that some classes get.

So there you go:  Bows will get 2.4 dps; melee weapons will get at least 22 dps- 24 dps.  Melee classes get adornments that provide 10 times the dps that rangers with bows will receive.  Does that seem balanced? 

You'd be better off with the DPS mod on your neck, and every avail str or int mod you could get.  [Perhaps those adornments will each provide more for your dps.  So what?  Who said I won't get those anyway?  Why is getting those adornments relavent to the adornments on weapons?]

As for putting a DPS mod on thrown weapons?!?! And? You can just as easily adorn your neckpiece with a DPS adornment and get the same effect so thats really a non issue. [Perhaps I don't want to adorn my neck with a dps adornment...Perhaps I want to use that slot for something else.  The lack of decent adornments on bows removes that option from me...a limitation that some other classes don't have]

And lets not forget theres that whole 1% increase to ranged crit on the buckle!!  [So?  What does that have to do with my unbalanced limitations on bow adornments?]

If you ask me, the adornments were thrown in as a way to make your toon slightly different then the next toon, not to add uber dps through mods.

I don't think anyone is expecting "uber dps".  On the other hand, adornments are not trivial either.  More than one Dev post has remarked that some of the epic mobs/zones in EoF are very hard and are tuned expecting that the players are fully adorned.  I don't think SoE would make such remarks if they didn't believe that adornments provide more than just trivial "flavor".

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In the end, this isn't about "uber dps".  This is about the imbalance in adornments for bows.  It's about how melee weapons get adornments that add a minimum of 10 times as much dps as those for bows. It's about how rangers continue to be disadvantaged by SoE itemization imbalance and/or not well thought out combat mechanics.

Is it game breaking?  By itself, probably not.  But you can hardly say that these adornment imbalances will do anything to close the gap in dps between rangers and other melee classes such as assassins or rogues.  On the contrary.

[Gerdos]

Haven't been around for a week, but .. i know there's a (mana/ultra rare) DPS adornement for bows.   Comes from the Tinkerer.  I'd assume it amounts to the same increase as the thrown weapon adornement ~10% DPS.

 

Also a (infusion/rare) life tap proc, also from the Tinkerer.

 

 

[Balerius]

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Gerdos wrote:

Haven't been around for a week, but .. i know there's a (mana/ultra rare) DPS adornement for bows.   Comes from the Tinkerer.  I'd assume it amounts to the same increase as the thrown weapon adornement ~10% DPS.

 

Also a (infusion/rare) life tap proc, also from the Tinkerer.

 

 

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Nope.  The tinkered gears that were adornments for bows (with decent procs) were in Beta but removed when the expansion went live.  Tinkerers no longer make any adornments (for bows or anything else).

Caveat:  At least no tinkerer adornment recipes have been found to date.  If the gear recipes for bows are somewhere in game, then they must be rare drops from raid-level epic mobs.  Then we get back to:  Why should bows require such rare drops to be able to have halfway decent adornments?

[xandez]

well who else thinks that these bow adornment STINkS!they are very very lame, come on! +12 DMG!!! ROFL waht a joke. Hmm for comparison, lets say i hit for 1k autoattack and with the UBER adornment i now hit 1012 points... thats a WHOPPING 1.2% increase in DMG! WOOOOOT!maybe 12% increase and that could be somewhat useful (of was it 14, not 12... whatever)and also, like said earlier in this post already... WHERE is our bow proc adornments??!!!!!!!!Theres one for sister, mum, aunt Helen, uncle John and stuff, but not for mr Ranja here GAH!++Xan

Message Edited by xandez on 11-24-2006 12:02 PM

[Zholain]

Don't misunderstand me, because I think that the bow adornments are junk just as much as you all do.  But the +12 damage DOES apply to CA's as well as auto-attack.  It's still [Removed for Content], but not as [Removed for Content] as some are indicating.Sorry, but I saw a couple posts where folks seemed to think that it didn't apply to CA's.

[Gerdos]

Another way to look at it is doing some (rough) basic comparisons.

The elemental proc adornments available to MELEE weapons (+12 dmg also available) are: 

Pierce: 313 disease, 367 magic, 4 @ ~400 poison  

Slash:  276 heat, 313 cold, 407 divine.

Under current combat system (as of today), this only goes off ONCE per minute.   Also take into account the crit bonus from these elemental proc's can add another ~30% dmg ( IF they crit).

Compare that with the +12 dmg adornements.   +12 dmg for every arrow that lands from CAs and auto-attacks.   In effect, you need to RANGE hit at least 30 times in 1 minute just to meet the low end dmg range from the MELEE elemental procs.  If you take into account crits, your looking at a figure in the range of ~40 RANGE hits in the opening minute to match the elemental adornements.

Compare that with the 10% DPS buff adornement available to Bows (i'm hoping they still exist for bows, just not found atm - or to be introduced (again) soon).   Only a few variables to consider,  but each has a large range in itself.. Bow used (particularly their dmg ranges ... and whether they are a short or long bow), Haste buff, arrow Tier.   In a standard 1 minute fight, IF you range for most of the encounter your looking at 8-10 autto attacks (from longbows) firing.   But each auto attack is another 10% of the bow's dmg range,  which in most cases amounts to ~40 dmg  ... or ~70 dmg from Sarnak or Corruption bows.  

Which amounts to 8-10 @ ~40-70 extra dmg in the opening minute .... which amounts to ~30 RANGED hits from the +12 dmg adornements on the low end of this scale just to equalize the dmg output, which is about right.   However, you'll need about 50-60 RANGED hits to equalize the upper range which isn't possible.  Thus, the better the bow, the greater the benefit you'll receive from any DPS adornement ... which the +12 dmg adornements cant hope to match on the best bows.

Basically, the the elemental dmg proc and DPS adornements  are better then the +12 dmg adornements for range attacks.   When comparing which is better b/w the DPS adornement of elemental proc adornmants, you'll need to consider the bow you use, and your AA lines and playstyle to figure out which is better.

However, the +12 dmg adornements are really better suited to pure melee classes, as melee hits amount to ~50-70% more hits then going range only .. so the +12 dmg really stack up for melee classes, and under the current adornement and combat systems, favours other classes over rangers (again).

 

Message Edited by Gerdos on 11-25-2006 10:32 AM

[TerriBlades]

I never said it was perfect, nor did I say it was properly balanced, I merely said it wasnt as bad as everyone was making it out to be.

Ive talked to our servers highest level tinkerer, and it seems that all the gear adornments that tinks made in beta were removed. I seriously doubt they are in game at this point. Which is a shame cause it gave us more options, and options are always good.

[Falconia_EQ]

You are wrong Demlar.. I just was able to put one of the +45 to all poison damage on my wyrmslayer bow.. at monday I will have some lab farming.. then I will see if it works