an easy fix for ranger dps by devs

[slicewalker]

ok im a 70 ranger  in groups i cap out str to 720  using my grizz bow  and yet still wonder how my auto attack hits from any where between 300-1400 damage every 4 secs with haste maxed . ok so on raids in legendry gear i max out to 900 dps because of the slow cast times and stop starts in the auto attack sequence . Was wondering if the devs cant just change the offensive stance damage to a more appropriate lvl 400+ proc at 30% is a slap in the face to us all when most other classes get a free double/triple attack from aa lines.

 Rangers are never going to use the sta aa tree to take the pointless  aoe  attack on main weapon line cos it does work of out real main weapom our bow were as zerkers double attack does not fair i know but our aa lines all suck imo taking poise to *fix* SoA for 1 point

 Anyhow not asking for much but say double the amount atmo on the proc to say 800+  would be a sure fire way off handing our dps back from our auto attack because thats where our entire dps is based now

Message Edited by slicewalker on 07-10-2006 03:50 AM

[blurryfast]

in my current guild and the last, the ranger(s) have always been at or near tops in parsefor a class that claims to be so nerfed or so lacking they sure seem to do impressive #sfar as i know our current ranger (the one who makes nearly all raids) averages 1200+the class is not lacking, the proc is great, the assassin proc only has a 10% chance, I'd love to have your 30%you get haste, we get dps mod, not much difference in the long run I supposeI'd like to read more ranger comments on this, it always seems to be so you have/we wantfrom what I've seen rangers still kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] . . . and do it well

[slicewalker]

i am  a t7 raiding ranger 1 piece or relic rest legendry with 50 aas str/agi line and my max avg on raid is the 700-900 wall with it i know 1200+ is poss from all fabled mastered out rangers but when a normal joe  sorceror/summor can do 1200-1400 without trying tbh its a lil unfair i have also beaten other dps to the top slot on our parses just because of that dont mean were not broke class is great just for the amount we pay and lose for our supposed *great* dps we really should have the numbers to back it up if we paid 2 plat+ for say 1400 instead off no poison crap arrows we would only be 900 dps were we shopuld probably be without them not with them

[mik]

Message Edited by mikk1 on 07-09-2006 04:27 AM

[mik]

It is just ridiculous that warrior with pure ranged autoattack makes the the same or even more DPS than rangers with all their ranged CAs. Why guilds even need rangers? Zerker can wear plate armor and has much greater utility. Brigands are not affected by aoe, have huge debuffs and almost the same DPS as rangers. Just replace useless rangers (and maybe assassins) with brigands and zerkers and guilds will get much better raidforce.

Message Edited by mikk1 on 07-09-2006 04:29 AM

[Balerius]

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blurryfast wrote:
in my current guild and the last, the ranger(s) have always been at or near tops in parse
for a class that claims to be so nerfed or so lacking they sure seem to do impressive #s
far as i know our current ranger (the one who makes nearly all raids) averages 1200+

the class is not lacking, the proc is great, the assassin proc only has a 10% chance, I'd love to have your 30%
you get haste, we get dps mod, not much difference in the long run I suppose

I'd like to read more ranger comments on this, it always seems to be so you have/we want

from what I've seen rangers still kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] . . . and do it well

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1200 dps is about right for a ranger on epic encounters.

But while the ranger is doing 1200 dps, you on your assassin should be doing over 1500 dps and berzerkers, swashys, monks, and bruisers will also be doing 1200 dps or more.

Which is why there is a problem.  Why have a ranger who only brings dps to the table when you can have those other classes who exceed (greatly in the case of assassins) or equal the ranger in dps and also have utility?

[Nak]

I thought about it and posted an easy fix on the achievment forums....

[Jayad]

There's many ways to fix dps.  The problem is getting anybody to see there is a problem.

[Balerius]

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Naku9 wrote:
I thought about it and posted an easy fix on the achievment forums....

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Coah, in my mind the objective is to:

1) raise rangers' dps (approx 1200 dps) to an level equivalent to assassins (approx 1500 dps), and

2) raise rangers dps' relative to other melee classes who currently do as much or more dps plus bring utility

Your proposal might accomplish #2, but I'm not sure it would accomplish #1 because it would also be attactive to assassins and raise their dps as well...leaving rangers just as far behind assassins as before.

That's the problem with any fix being made by way of the AA system.  Any fix significant enough to make a difference will likely be adopted by assassins...even ranged-only AA changes.

I haven't made any specific proposals simply because I don't really care what form they take.  But rangers need about 300 dps with changes that are uniquely available to rangers.  That means, in my mind, no fix via AAs.  It also means no fix via increasing weapon damage ratings (i.e., raising bow damage...if we're already being out-dps'd by other classes with ranged autoattack, why do we want to make matters worse by increasing bow damage ratings???).  It can't be in the form of decreasing arrow costs (same problem as with bow damage).

SoE can raise our CA damage significantly.

SoE can decrease cast times or recast times significantly.

SoE can modify our Offensive Stance by raising the proc damage from it.

SoE can change Focus Aim to give a longer duration double attack percentage instead of its current short crit chance increase.

Or it could do a mix of the above.  Whatever it takes to increase ranger dps by about 300 dps relative to all other classes.

 

[Katsugen]

There was another post (by Balerius i think) that seemed to sum it up pretty well. There are 3 possibilites why a ranger would be constantly topping parse:

1. bad group setup

2. raid members slacking

3. exceptional ranger

I hate to admit it but I am in this same case currently, and it drives me nuts. My guild thinks rangers are uber dps, but I know it has nothing to do w/ #3 and all to do w/ #1 and #2.

For the most part I'm fully mastered and fabled but it's not as if my guild mates arent the same. I think if your a ranger and constantly in the top3 then something is wrong (see #1 and #2). I think it worth while listening to some of these high end guilds that specialize in min/max'ing and when they see problems it should be noted.

While less hardcore raiding guilds might not see the problem as prolifically, it doesn't mean its not there.

As for a fix it does need to be ranger specific. Although I feel dmg rating on bows should still be fixed and AA's adjusted for more ranged atks, we need a boost to a couple of our craptastic CA's, like those couple that never make my rotation.

-Katsugen

Message Edited by Katsugen on 07-09-2006 02:18 PM

[Nak]

I'm not sure to the extent of it boosting Assassins, I thought about it for awhile, to the best of my knowledge double hits only go off the primary hand, so why would an assassin give up all of his crit chances in order to get a 20% chance to have their primary get the chance to swing (which would be far less of a chance becuase of the faster the weapon delay than a bow would, the only exception would be the one dw from lyceum with the 4 second delay) Eitherway, anyone who thinks 5% incombat movement speed is useful is ... well, just bleh

[110euph]

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slicewalker wrote:

sitting at 70 in group with 720 str and watching my aouto attack hitting from any where from 300-1400 damage every 4 secs self haste rocks btw was wondering if the devs cant just change the offensive stance damage to a more appropriate lvl 400+ proc at 30% is a slap in the face to us all when most other classes get a free double/triple attack from aa lines

 rangers are never going to fill the sta line for our [Removed for Content] take aoe on main weapon line cos its crap and dont even get me started on the waste of space aa we have any how

 anyhow not asking for much but say double the amount atmo to say 800+ a proc would be a sure fire way off handing our dps back to us

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I was terribly interested in your post, until I tried to read it.  I'm sorry, but I can't make it out.  Try some punctuation; that usually helps.  And make an effort to correct your spelling mistakes; I do it all the time.  People will take you seriously if you communicate well.  Communicating like this will only get you ignored.

Sorry to be harsh; it's a fact of life.  No matter how angry you get, the sun will always set in the west.

[slicewalker]

re edited  i posted it originally after a real costly raid  so sue me

[littleman17]

To that rogue who posted about us beig able to do super dmg.... there is a hitch... we Ranger's have to go full out inorder to come close to the dps you see.

 

All the other classes like sorcs and rogues can just stand in one place and unleash every single one of their attacks.

 

But for rangers, 3/4th of our CA are ranged. So we have to back up, get behind the mob then fire. Then after we have used about 25 arrows, we have to go back into melee range to use the rest of our ca (mainly for the dmg on rnager's blade).

 

And one more thing, DON'T NERF THE OTHER CLASSES, JUST FIX US!

[Ishbu]

Wouldnt the simplest fix/solution just to be jack up the dmg done by your combat arts? Seems easy to me

[Jay]

Gee, that just might work... Triple Volley anyone? (And to think it was once my favorite CA line. I feel so betrayed.)

The problem here isn't a lack of possible fixes, it's that SOE doesn't think there's a problem to fix in the first place.

[Riversideblues]

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Balerius wrote:

But while the ranger is doing 1200 dps, you on your assassin should be doing over 1500 dps and berzerkers, swashys, monks, and bruisers will also be doing 1200 dps or more.

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i know wisren quit, but is your other brigand that bad?

[Balerius]

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Riversideblues wrote:

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Balerius wrote:

But while the ranger is doing 1200 dps, you on your assassin should be doing over 1500 dps and berzerkers, swashys, monks, and bruisers will also be doing 1200 dps or more.

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i know wisren quit, but is your other brigand that bad?

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Nah,  I just left brigands out of the list.  I get too depressed when I type out all of the classes that can out-dps rangers so I just typed out four.  :smileysad:

[Skratttt]

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I tend to Agree with rangers here......AGAIN like i stated MANY a time...you guys are geting gimped on the "free" dps unless u run in and use your DW combo (auto atack dps is what i say is lacking)Why i say that???AVG bow in end game 100  rating (topping out at `107, not only that but most bows are not comparable to a same level 2h like suposed to be)AVG end game dual wield combo in game 120+ rating...(wurmy and Claymore reward for example)Now boosting bows to have same rating would be counterproductive being that other classes would also bennefit from this....Changing something in the agi AA line to give a 18-20% (maybe get rid of Bounty lol, or put it down the agi line) chance to double atack from bow = Balance for auto atack dmg from bow And DW setupNow this would not be unbalanced from what i hear classes with AA that give them double atack chances (brawlers/warriors/rogues) are double atacking also from ranged, with pouch or bow(not sure if this is true...can someone plz confirm or deny this)....why should they have this possibility and not rangers the masters of the bow??

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[jrisley69]

As far as dps goes, this is something that i do on raids on every fight, and i manage to parse within top 5 no matter what group setup.  When fight starts, i'm in stealth, when mob is pulled, and taunted i start off with Veiled fire.  this shoots off followed by our Auto attack.  Then i hit Focus Fire/aim and hit culling, debilitating, and triple fire, all with slight pauses inbetween for ranged auto attacks.  i then proceed to cycle through the rest of my ranged CA's doing the same with pauses for auto attack.  I start with veiled fire cuz by the time mob dies, it's ready to go on the next pull usually.  by this time, the tank should have gotten the mob in a position where he's not going anywhere.  this is where i enter the "sweet spot".  I call it the sweet spot cuz there is a point that is near the mob where both your ranged and melee CA's will light up and be usuable.  this prevents back and forth running and lost time.  when i get in the sweet spot, i hit off 2 Melee CA's, any melee CA is fine such as longblade and then ranger's blade, followed by hitting the ranged auto attack.  then i proceed to do the same with all my melee CA's, 2 at a time then ranged auto attack.  by the time i've cycled through them, i notice that my ranged CA's are refreshing again.  Well, since i'm in the sweet spot, i dont have to move anywhere, now i hit my ranged CA's, followed again by melee CA's until mob is done.  with practice, i've been able to time it to where throughout the duration of the fight, i am always hitting a CA and ranged Auto attack button without pause and am able to parse anywhere from 1200-1600.  Take advantage of your focus fire CA as well.  It may be only 10sec,  but the DPS increase and critical chance is great burst dps.   when you fire that off, before your big hits like culling debilitating and triple, they will all refresh up at about the same time and you can use it usually twice a fight, sometimes 3-4 depending on the length of the fight.  If the pull is a linked encounter pull, i'll start off a little different.  When group is pulled, and tank has them, i'm in stealth and i start off with focus fire (this can be cast in stealth without breaking), and then i hit Selection which is an AE, then i send out the bird, this will help when i fire off Rain of Arrows in case the tank hasnt fully gotten hate.  in a raid setting, on a normal group of 4-5 mobs, usually the selection + procs will do about 1-2k per hit on just the CA itself, not counting any individual procs on all mobs in encounter, so that CA would do a total of about 6-10k damage on a group of 4-5,  followed rain of arrows which is a big hitter, your lookin at about 2-3k per mob not counting procs or criticals.    this could equate out to 12-18k depending on your luck.  So in the span of 5-10sec, you've just done some burst dps of about 20-30k damage.  hope you guys can follow what i'm saying.  There may be other ways to do this but for me, this has been the way to go after lots of trial and error.

[Jeffmaster]

good analyse....

 

but just a question...isn't it normal to do less dps if you are ranged (safer position?)

I've never played a rnager but wanted to start up on one

[Gareorn]

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Jeffmaster wrote:

good analyse....

 

but just a question...isn't it normal to do less dps if you are ranged (safer position?)

I've never played a rnager but wanted to start up on one

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It really depends on the situation.  If it's going to be a long fight where everyone is going to run out of power, then no.  Staying at range will increase your DPS for that encounter because the ranged CA's are more power efficient and because we can only shoot one ranged CA while moving.  This means, that you are doing very little damage, if any, while running in or running out.

But, if you are going to have power to spare, heck yes, joust in get your melee shots off and joust back out while your ranged abilities are refreshing.  Just remember to re-engage your auto ranged while moving back out.  Jousting is necessary to maximize DPS in most situations.

If the mobs don't AE, the best thing to do is to sit in the sweet spot where you can do both ranged and melee.  I love this situation, although it is rare one.