isnt it sad

[Rinio]

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

 

why does there double attack work on ranged attacked and ours dosent? oh thats right we dont get one.... =o

 

on a more serious note. i like pie. thanks

[Jowita]

I like pie too. I also liked double-attack when I was an EQ1 warrior.

But EQ2 is so much more fun, even without double-attack. I just don't worry about DPS much, seems it just makes so many folks unhappy. My advice is to just enjoy EQ2 for what it offers, remember with fondness the rockin' groups you've had, and cherish the online friends you've made (especially if they're furry and cute), and look forward to the friends you'll make as you get stronger.

 

Jowita

[Star]

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

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Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

[Jay]

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jwmaynar wrote:

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

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Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

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What does being a tank or wearing armor have to do with firing a bow and doing ranged damage?

Hit points should make absolutely no difference in the RANGED AUTOATTACK damage that someone does. Platemail, on the other hand, should inhibit movement, slow your bow shots, and generally make firing a longbow more difficult.

Message Edited by Jay42 on 06-16-2006 12:15 PM

[Ranja]

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jwmaynar wrote:

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

---

Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

---

I hope this is a sarcastic post. And I think it is. Or you are just really bitter towards Rangers right now and want to put htem down. Each point you mention is a argument against Berzerkers. As Jay said, platemail would make you clumsier. Also, a Berzerker is a tank. There is no way in hell, in the EQ2 world, that a tank should beat a Ranger in ranged combat.

I dont understand this comment. It baffles me coming from a veteran ranger that should understanda the mechanics of EQ2. Stararrow, I hope you come back and post in here and shed some light on the motivation of that comment because that is way off base for you. I know you understand EQ2 mechanics and the game more than that to know that a Berzerker is a tank and should not beat out Rangers in ranged DPS.

[leafnin]

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bentgate wrote:

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jwmaynar wrote:

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

---

Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

---

I hope this is a sarcastic post. And I think it is. Or you are just really bitter towards Rangers right now and want to put htem down. Each point you mention is a argument against Berzerkers. As Jay said, platemail would make you clumsier. Also, a Berzerker is a tank. There is no way in hell, in the EQ2 world, that a tank should beat a Ranger in ranged combat.

I dont understand this comment. It baffles me coming from a veteran ranger that should understanda the mechanics of EQ2. Stararrow, I hope you come back and post in here and shed some light on the motivation of that comment because that is way off base for you. I know you understand EQ2 mechanics and the game more than that to know that a Berzerker is a tank and should not beat out Rangers in ranged DPS.

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I'm not sure if the OP means the Ranger is FIGHTING the Berserker with only ranged autoattack or not.  It sounds awfully close to that.  This might be were the comments came from (i.e.  Remember the game tell him a phrase and pass it on?  It never ends up the same).  If it's how Bent and Jay mean I agree a Ranger should own with Ranged autoattack (We have Focus as well as increased ranged crits).  If it's the other way (PvP) then the berserker would most likely win with an equal bow.  Higher HP, Plate, more +piercing/+ slashing gear, double attack, etc.  It's sad but true he'd take less damage then we would.  My thoughts on the issue

 

Falcon 

[Ranja]

ah yes never  thought of it that way :smileyvery-happy:

[Jayad]

No, what's truly sad is, "working as intended" !

[leafnin]

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Xney wrote:

No, what's truly sad is, "working as intended" !

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Well I can always feed the 'zerker to my awesome Bear fluff spell!  That'll teach him.

 

Falcon

[Saihung23]

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leafnin wrote:

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Xney wrote:

No, what's truly sad is, "working as intended" !

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Well I can always feed the 'zerker to my awesome Bear fluff spell!  That'll teach him.

 

Falcon

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I hate pie.

[BSbon]

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

 

why does there double attack work on ranged attacked and ours dosent? oh thats right we dont get one.... =o

 

on a more serious note. i like pie. thanks

---

i think the main problem here is that the OP doesn't provide any details about anything at all. what levels were the 2 players? how many HP did each player have? what is the mitigation of each player? what strength and agi does each player have? was it just auto attack or could the ranger use CAs? were they using the same bow? i'm probablly forgetting something but you see how a generic statement like this is almost useless for comparison or evaluation.

my ranger just got killed by a cleric wearing no armor.

ok lets examine how this is possible. the cleric has no armor on so how in the world could the cleric defeat a ranger. oh i forgot to mention that the ranger was level 3 and the cleric was level 70 with 50 AAs and all master nukes.

[Saihung23]

The real question is bongo...do you also like pie?  What if that pie could double attack?  THEN how would you feel?

 

 

yeah...thought so...

[BSbon]

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Saihung23 wrote:

The real question is bongo...do you also like pie?  What if that pie could double attack?  THEN how would you feel?

 

 

yeah...thought so...

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it all depends on what kind of pie. if it's mincemeat pie NO. Ick get it away.

[Ranja]

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Saihung23 wrote:

The real question is bongo...do you also like pie?  What if that pie could double attack?  THEN how would you feel?

 

 

yeah...thought so...

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Hey Sai, you are on a role today! I love it. I have read some of your other posts today and they are all classic. Keep em coming :smileyvery-happy:

[Star]

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leafnin wrote:

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bentgate wrote:

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jwmaynar wrote:

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

---

Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

---

I hope this is a sarcastic post. And I think it is. Or you are just really bitter towards Rangers right now and want to put htem down. Each point you mention is a argument against Berzerkers. As Jay said, platemail would make you clumsier. Also, a Berzerker is a tank. There is no way in hell, in the EQ2 world, that a tank should beat a Ranger in ranged combat.

I dont understand this comment. It baffles me coming from a veteran ranger that should understanda the mechanics of EQ2. Stararrow, I hope you come back and post in here and shed some light on the motivation of that comment because that is way off base for you. I know you understand EQ2 mechanics and the game more than that to know that a Berzerker is a tank and should not beat out Rangers in ranged DPS.

---

I'm not sure if the OP means the Ranger is FIGHTING the Berserker with only ranged autoattack or not.  It sounds awfully close to that.  This might be were the comments came from (i.e.  Remember the game tell him a phrase and pass it on?  It never ends up the same).  If it's how Bent and Jay mean I agree a Ranger should own with Ranged autoattack (We have Focus as well as increased ranged crits).  If it's the other way (PvP) then the berserker would most likely win with an equal bow.  Higher HP, Plate, more +piercing/+ slashing gear, double attack, etc.  It's sad but true he'd take less damage then we would.  My thoughts on the issue

 

Falcon 

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This is what I took the OP to mean in his post in which case yes, armor matters, and yes hit point matter. Geez. Why do I bother around here anymore.

[Saihung23]

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bentgate wrote:

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Saihung23 wrote:

The real question is bongo...do you also like pie?  What if that pie could double attack?  THEN how would you feel?

 

 

yeah...thought so...

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Hey Sai, you are on a role today! I love it. I have read some of your other posts today and they are all classic. Keep em coming :smileyvery-happy:

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I am on the high of a sugar high...just wait till I crash...then I am going to go on killing spree...

Then again, I might be perma sugar high'd up....never come down...oh gods I could be like this forever!!

[Dirtgirl]

Unfortunately, I'm 99.99% sure the OP was not fighting AGAINST the Zerker, but comparing himself to the Zerker in the SAME fight.    =/

[Crychtonn]

I'm sure he was also.  It's not like it's hard to see why it would happen either.

Ranger can have 22% crit bonus

Zerker can have 16% double shot bonus

Crit bonus adds on average 30% additional damage.

Double attack adds 100% additional damage.

 

Even with a lower percentage chance which one do you think will add up to higher numbers ?

 

[Lexan]

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Crychtonn wrote:

I'm sure he was also.  It's not like it's hard to see why it would happen either.

Ranger can have 22% crit bonus

Zerker can have 16% double shot bonus

Crit bonus adds on average 30% additional damage.

Double attack adds 100% additional damage.

 

Even with a lower percentage chance which one do you think will add up to higher numbers ?

 

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warriors get a aa that gives them 76% double attack chance with a buckler equiped..... this also works for ranged.

[Crychtonn]

I stand corrected.  I just went off the 2% chance per AA point predators get for their AE double attack.  I don't have any fighter toons.

 

76% eh ??  Damm that's a scary thought.

 

[pseudocide]

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bentgate wrote:

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jwmaynar wrote:

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RinionX wrote:

Its sad when a beserker owns a ranger in a straight up ranged auto attack fight =o

---

Not really. He's covered in big metal plates and you are not. He prolly has at least 2K more HP than you. Quite simply, he's a tank you are not. That outcome is not suprising at all and I'm certain even w/o double attack he would have beaten you.

---

I hope this is a sarcastic post. And I think it is. Or you are just really bitter towards Rangers right now and want to put htem down. Each point you mention is a argument against Berzerkers. As Jay said, platemail would make you clumsier. Also, a Berzerker is a tank. There is no way in hell, in the EQ2 world, that a tank should beat a Ranger in ranged combat.

I dont understand this comment. It baffles me coming from a veteran ranger that should understanda the mechanics of EQ2. Stararrow, I hope you come back and post in here and shed some light on the motivation of that comment because that is way off base for you. I know you understand EQ2 mechanics and the game more than that to know that a Berzerker is a tank and should not beat out Rangers in ranged DPS.

---

i dont think he's being sarcastic, what [i infer that] he means is that a berzerker has much better mitigation and probably avoidance, as well as HP.  for all we know the ranger could have outdps'd the zerk and still lost because of hp difference.  gear wasnt mentioned by op and we dont know the CA level, ranged skill, haste, dps buffs, and strength for the zerk or ranger.  autoattack dmg is meaningless to me when rangers get more than enough ranged CAs for any fight, usually too many...

[Dirtgirl]

I still dont think we are talking about a duel. I think he's talkin about Zerker auto-ranged dps vs. Ranger auto-ranged dps  AGAINST THE SAME MOB.
A Zerker with the AA line will have considerably higher auto-bow attack DPS than a Ranger will....
Even if the Zerker is naked.... ( ok maybe a slight exaggeration since str would be down )

[leafnin]

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Dirtgirl wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm 99.99% sure the OP was not fighting AGAINST the Zerker, but comparing himself to the Zerker in the SAME fight.    =/

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Well the reason it can get confusing is what mob would a Ranger ONLY use ranged autoattack and no CA's.  I can't think of a one.  I can however see the OP testing out ranged autoattack against each other (nekkid or otherwise). 

 

 All I can say is that if it's a raid there's alot we don't know and going off just personal buffs with no knowledge of those qualities leaves for alot of speculation.  Comparisions in raids leave alot to be desired usually. My two cp.

 

Falcon

 

[Balerius]

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leafnin wrote:

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Dirtgirl wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm 99.99% sure the OP was not fighting AGAINST the Zerker, but comparing himself to the Zerker in the SAME fight.    =/

---

Well the reason it can get confusing is what mob would a Ranger ONLY use ranged autoattack and no CA's.  I can't think of a one.  I can however see the OP testing out ranged autoattack against each other (nekkid or otherwise). 

 

 All I can say is that if it's a raid there's alot we don't know and going off just personal buffs with no knowledge of those qualities leaves for alot of speculation.  Comparisions in raids leave alot to be desired usually. My two cp.

 

Falcon

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You don't need to do a lot of speculation concerning buffs or anything else.

When the berzerker has a 76% chance to do a double attack and the ranger has a 24% chance to do a crit on a single attack, it isn't rocket science to figure out the berzerker will far exceed that ranger's dps while using ranged autoattack.  The fundamental mechanics of double attack will always make that form of attack higher dps than single attacks with increased chances to critical attack.

Face it, when it comes to AAs, rangers are screwed.  We are one of the only melee classes that do not get double attack.  Unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix this since giving us some form of double attack as an AA would likewise make that AA available to assassins...putting us even further behind assassin dps.

I can think of two ways:

1) Change our rank 4 agility AA to give up to a 75% chance to do a double attack with ranged combat only.  While assassins could also get this AA, it might be less likely that they would max it out.

2) Change our Focus Aim line of CAs to be a 90% increase to double attack versus critical attack plus increase the duration of the buff and lower the recast time.  This would address ranger dps shortcomings directly without also increasing assassin dps.

[Lexan]

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Balerius wrote:

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leafnin wrote:

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Dirtgirl wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm 99.99% sure the OP was not fighting AGAINST the Zerker, but comparing himself to the Zerker in the SAME fight.    =/

---

Well the reason it can get confusing is what mob would a Ranger ONLY use ranged autoattack and no CA's.  I can't think of a one.  I can however see the OP testing out ranged autoattack against each other (nekkid or otherwise). 

 

 All I can say is that if it's a raid there's alot we don't know and going off just personal buffs with no knowledge of those qualities leaves for alot of speculation.  Comparisions in raids leave alot to be desired usually. My two cp.

 

Falcon

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You don't need to do a lot of speculation concerning buffs or anything else.

When the berzerker has a 76% chance to do a double attack and the ranger has a 24% chance to do a crit on a single attack, it isn't rocket science to figure out the berzerker will far exceed that ranger's dps while using ranged autoattack.  The fundamental mechanics of double attack will always make that form of attack higher dps than single attacks with increased chances to critical attack.

Face it, when it comes to AAs, rangers are screwed.  We are one of the only melee classes that do not get double attack.  Unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix this since giving us some form of double attack as an AA would likewise make that AA available to assassins...putting us even further behind assassin dps.

I can think of two ways:

1) Change our rank 4 agility AA to give up to a 75% chance to do a double attack with ranged combat only.  While assassins could also get this AA, it might be less likely that they would max it out.

2) Change our Focus Aim line of CAs to be a 90% increase to double attack versus critical attack plus increase the duration of the buff and lower the recast time.  This would address ranger dps shortcomings directly without also increasing assassin dps.

---

Only bad thing about that is double attack only works from auto attack.  So changeing focus aim to work off of autoattack wouldnt be all that helpfull.

Totally agree with your AA idea.  Also I think changeing stream to a double auto attack with a chance to proc would be awesome tho   Honestly they could do something with any of our scroll abilities and i dont think anyone would be heart broken.

[Dirtgirl]

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Lexani- wrote:

Totally agree with your AA idea.  Also I think changeing stream to a double auto attack with a chance to proc would be awesome tho   Honestly they could do something with any of our scroll abilities and i dont think anyone would be heart broken.

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Nobody but the whining non-Rangers who will immediately be all over these boards the minute we get a little DPS lovin....
Probably bring even Btil back outta the closet.

[Balerius]

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Lexani- wrote:

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You don't need to do a lot of speculation concerning buffs or anything else.

When the berzerker has a 76% chance to do a double attack and the ranger has a 24% chance to do a crit on a single attack, it isn't rocket science to figure out the berzerker will far exceed that ranger's dps while using ranged autoattack.  The fundamental mechanics of double attack will always make that form of attack higher dps than single attacks with increased chances to critical attack.

Face it, when it comes to AAs, rangers are screwed.  We are one of the only melee classes that do not get double attack.  Unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix this since giving us some form of double attack as an AA would likewise make that AA available to assassins...putting us even further behind assassin dps.

I can think of two ways:

1) Change our rank 4 agility AA to give up to a 75% chance to do a double attack with ranged combat only.  While assassins could also get this AA, it might be less likely that they would max it out.

2) Change our Focus Aim line of CAs to be a 90% increase to double attack versus critical attack plus increase the duration of the buff and lower the recast time.  This would address ranger dps shortcomings directly without also increasing assassin dps.

---

Only bad thing about that is double attack only works from auto attack.  So changeing focus aim to work off of autoattack wouldnt be all that helpfull.

Totally agree with your AA idea.  Also I think changeing stream to a double auto attack with a chance to proc would be awesome tho   Honestly they could do something with any of our scroll abilities and i dont think anyone would be heart broken.

---

Yeah, I know DA only works with autoattack.  What I was thinking was that Focus Aim would give us a temporary (buffed) opportunity to double attack while using autoattack.  This as an alternative to the 1st option I gave in case SoE wouldn't want us to have an AA that gave us a permanent opportunity to Double Attack. We'd give up the chance to crit on our ranged CAs that Focus now gives us, but the trade off would be a periodic opportunity to Double Attack.  IF this was implemented, rangers would change their attack order..instead of hitting Focus then our ranged CAs, you would do your range CAs without focus...hit focus...then autoattack.

If done right, (which is where the part I mentioned about increased duration and lowered recast comes in) then I think we could get a substantial boost in overall dps.

BTW, the other good thing about both of my notions is that they would have a negligible impact on the solo game or pvp game.  The problem with a lot of ideas about improving ranger dps, especially in the high-end raid environment, is that those ideas would upset the balance of classes in other styles of play.  Giving us an opportunity to double attack would not greatly affect rangers while solo or in pvp.

[LoreLady]

Raid wise - our ranged CA's hit around 600-800ish depending on the person. And for treasured gear, 200 melee dps. When you start to get high end, you bridge that gap. When you add haste into the equation, it bridges that gap more. I have seen averages of 500-600 melee dps starting to unfold on several of our monks/assassins/crusaders. Now I am going to take this number, due to the fact that our rouges dont have upgraded weapons yet.Now I am not calling out for a nerf by any means, just pointing out where gear outdoes CA's. I am going to assume the rouge does 400 CA damage as our typical brigands do. And I am going to use the average DPS I have seen on other classes with 1h weapons is 500 with haste and dps buffed out.500 x 0.77 = 385 +500 = 885 melee DPS with double attack.   885+400 = 1285 average dpsNow, I am going to assume, that this DPS is going to hold true with a ranged bow with the same double attack on a 800 CA DPS. 885+ 800 = 1685.Now - there are alot of assumptions being thrown up in the air. I wont deny that, I am not using raw data that is comming from our rouges. And offballancing rangers will further offballance assassins/wizards/warloks. While assassin dps does seem higher than our own, assassins would be facing the same problems we are having with rouges if we simply put double attack to the bow.As it stands, rangers are on par with wizards on DPS. Any change done to our class means a change done to another. Remember this.

Message Edited by LoreLady on 06-17-2006 03:39 PM