Raiding Troubadors and player skill

[Sanju]

This is my (probably final) plea to bring some modicum of player skill to the raiding bards (specifically, Troubadors). This is somewhat applicable to groupers, too, but mostly raiders. Soloing bards currently require far more player skill than raiding bards.For every other archetype, player skill is a big part of what makes a player good at their job. Certainly skill upgrades and gear help out, but player skill is more important. If you have a tank that doesn't know how to pull and position mobs, or doesn't like to taunt too much, well no amount of gear or spell upgrades will really help him. The same can be said of healers (knowing when and which heals/wards/cures to cast) and dps classes (avoiding AEs, managing agro, maximizing damage).  The raiding troubador is much more dependant on spell quality, rather than player skill.Do you have the 40% Alins? (Any one will do, Master T6, Adept I T7 ... it really doesn't matter.)Do you have Adept 3+ Bria's? (I'd say Master, but since it was just recenly introduced it's still rare.)Do you have Masters of 95% of the rest of your buffs/skills?Do you have 50 AAs?If you said yes to the above, then congrats! You're basically just as good as any other raiding Troubador. As long as you know how to stay alive, anyway (which isn't difficult). Sure, your dps might be a couple hundered higher or lower than the other bard(s) in the raid, but if your raid is dependant on bard dps you've got problems. Casting Jester's Cap (and Bladedance if you have that) doesn't require much skill, and is just a bonus, anyway. When spell quality is the primary factor in what makes a player good, you've got severe problems.

[Jaimster]

I never played any other MMO, RPG, or any combination of the two, but I've seen references to twisting, instruments, and other things that we don't currently have in this game.

 

Did you have in mind a certain "skill" that would make our roles a bit more complicated, yet a bit more challenging in order to differentiate between good troubs and really really good troubs?

 

You're right. I pretty much only have to pay attention (and therefore make any decisions) in the following situations:

 

1) Welcome to your raid group - who is in it? What buffs do they need for greatest benefit?

 

2) On any specific mob, are the melee types getting wailed on by elemental or arcane damage?

 

3) Who to cast Jester's on?  No one is pulling aggro... not the MT.  MT is not dying really fast.... not a healer.  Okay, which dps class has the most power?... okay them.... A whole group just got whacked by an AoE, does their healer have power?... okay, them.  etc etc etc. A couple of people died?  Okay, who's the rezzer, let's cast it on them....

 

Whether the fact that I pay attention to the above actually benefits the raid in a big way or makes me a good troub, I have no idea, but at least I feel like I'm doing something =) 

 

I definitely would LOVE to have something to do that takes skill and attention to detail rather than mostly spell level!!  I just really have no idea what that could be...

[Sanju]

As much as some people hate it, twisting would certainly differentiate skilled troubs from the rest. The devs have made it abundantly clear that this mechanic will never be a part of EQ2, however. I'm not really sure how instruments worked in EQ1, as I've never played that game. If instruments could be introduced that would simulate twisting, that would be pretty cool.I really don't know how they can make what's essentially a buffing class more skill-based without some form of twisting, though.All I know is that I have a lot more fun on my baby Conjuror than I do on my Troub.

[vinterskugge]

More buffs like Jesters, Bladedance, etc would be the best way to fix this.  If we had a lot of useful abilities we had to time right to get the most out of them I'd be happy.

[vinterskugge]

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Sanju wrote:

Do you have the 40% Alins? (Any one will do, Master T6, Adept I T7 ... it really doesn't matter.)
Do you have Adept 3+ Bria's? (I'd say Master, but since it was just recenly introduced it's still rare.)
Do you have Masters of 95% of the rest of your buffs/skills?
Do you have 50 AAs?

If you said yes to the above, then congrats! You're basically just as good as any other raiding Troubador.

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I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!

[Jeger_Wulf]

> I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!

Woohoo! Grats Scafloc.

[Dizank]

Well I dont want to have to twist cause for anyone who played a bard in EQ the wrist pain would deter me from that over a long raid.

 

I would like more situational buffs that would be useful to the group/raid along with fixing up some of our lack luster buffs.

[vinterskugge]

I think a larger amount of short duration single target buffs would help tremendously.  Imagine a lot of Jesters style buffs we could be casting on different people at different times.

[schwantz007]

     Aye, single target spells that last a short duration but are highly NOTICEABLE improvements to your group members are the way to make this role more fun. Heh, at this point, the most gratification I get is from a group member saying, "wow that jesters cap is awesome." More spells like this or even like PotM are the way to go in my opinion. Jester's cap and PotM are kinda the only moments of glory I have. So needless to say I try to have them going as much as possible. 

     I agree fully that a class that is defined solely by spell quality is sad, which is why I have parked the Troubador for the near future. I have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]load of fun playing my other 3 characters - a Warden, Brigand, and Necromancer, even if I only play them currently on a group or solo level to kill time. However, I have raided with the Warden back in the day (excuse the cliche, heh) and it was much more intense of an experience - ie. curing at the right time, getting off the right kind of critical heals when needed, or even the ever heart stopping fizzle that comes along  less than opportune times (its still exciting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it !). So yes the raiding Bard is a mundane role but, as scafloc suggested, could be remedied with relative ease. In sum, all any Troubador wants is the ability to be active during raids and  to be noticeably contributing, one way or another.  Until then.....

 

Aredisil, 70 Troubador (on Vacation) on AB and....

numerous other personalities.

Message Edited by schwantz007 on 07-10-2006 05:40 PM

[Terayon]

Im not sure bout yall but I wana Beat up a dragon with a lute.. lol.

[Sabatini]

I just want to beat up a dragon for rare Lute drops. :smileywink:

[Godzmodi]

/join /afk /follow ah the life of the raiding troub o ya in between playing PS2 hit maestro every once in awhile

[Dystopya]

WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.

Message Edited by Dystopya on 07-12-2006 01:31 PM

[Crombie]

I have to agree with Angua's OP ~

The skill required for the Troub class on raids is very minimal, and overall disappointing.  Just in comparison with our close neighbors, the dirges. Their debuffs are very effective and the ability to rez keeps them on the move when needed.  I wish we had something that was innovative and required attention if we wished to add something to a raid that wasn't passive. (besides jesters cap omg lol) 

edited: blasted typos

Message Edited by Crombie on 07-12-2006 04:09 PM

[schwantz007]

[Removed for Content]. As a final post here as Troubador I would like to state: if you find ranged auto-attack at all innovative or invigorating then I would hate to see you plan a party. I am not trying to sound condescending or insulting but.../shrug Troubadors are looking for a bit more than that in my very humble opinion. However, indirectly you have raised a good point; do the majority of Troubador CAs REALLY suck that bad? yes...yes they do... (debuffs included).

 

 

 

 

 

[vinterskugge]

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Dystopya wrote:
WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....

This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.

F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.

Message Edited by Dystopya on 07-12-2006 01:31 PM

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I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.

Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?

[Sanju]

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Dystopya wrote:

Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid.

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Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol).  I never said that we can't occasionally put up good dps (or even consistently put up "good" dps), or that doing so doesn't require skill. In the right group/situation I can and have done very well on many parses.That's not my point, though. While I do think that we need a base dps increase, it still won't change the fact that our buffs (except for two of them) are unspectacular, our debuffs are also a joke, and there simply is no skill whatsoever in performing our primary role as a buffing class. The only "skill" regarding our buffs is knowing which would be optimal to run for any given situation/group -- and even a monkey can be told which buttons to press to "set and forget" the right buffs.If I wanted to rule the parses, I'd roll a dps class -- oh, wait, I did that already with my 55 and climbing Conjuror (which is a hell of a lot more fun to play, by the way, in any situation (solo/group/raid)).

[DarkMirrax]

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mbolme wrote:

> I have Bria's master, which makes me the best Troubador WW!

Woohoo! Grats Scafloc.

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Me too , cant use it yet though for another 20 levels though lol

[Kraks_Aforty]

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vinterskugge wrote:

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Dystopya wrote:

WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.

Message Edited by Dystopya on 07-12-2006 01:31 PM

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I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.

Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?

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I hate Jester's with a passion.  It's a band-aid that is only useful in very limited situations:  IE Sanctuary, Properly timed with some Guard/Zerker Temp Buffs, and Dispatch.  Basically, if you are worth a grain of salt, you're casting on your MT Cleric, MT, and Brigand, and perhaps 1 other person to complete the cycle.  What is the skill in that?I don't know how you fix the issues with troubs, honestly.  I've thought of a billion dfiferent things.  Whatever they are, I think they should have to do with group and/or raid-wide abilities, NOT single target stuff.  SONGS, BEATS, ETC aren't heard by 1 person at a time, ya know what I mean?  It's just idiocy and completely blows away any sense of lore in the character.  I'd love to see 10 second, 2 minute recast raid-wide buffs that, for instance, increase DPS by 20%.  What?!?  We can't have that?!?  Why not?  Brigands get dispatch, which is 13 seconds of about 50% DPS increase for the entire raid.  How about 10 second, 2 minute recast spell haste?  Heal crit %?  Spell Crit %?  Group Cures (this was in EQ1 and rocked)?Please please please, stop talking about single target crap.  We're group buffers, and always have been until this mishap of an expansion.

[Zapdafi]

lol, yup, jesters is crap. i have 3 situations where  use it. on a conjuror before they coh someone, maybe just before a pull on  a healer or the tank, and right before i cast call of queynos on me.

[Kreat]

I often find myself casting JC on tanks in encounters where mobs memwipe often or agro can be an issue ... other then that ... well, my necro loves it when he has to pass hearts out

[Snublefot]

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Godzmodiar wrote:
/join
/afk
/follow



ah the life of the raiding troub


o ya in between playing PS2 hit maestro every once in awhile

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Its pure bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and you know it. Your one of 24 people. Players that want to be stars aint got nothing to do in a raiding guild in the first place. I've found my niche in raiding, I can lag without ruining the raid, but those 700 dps do matter. And yeah I'm perfectly aware that I'm in the raid for 1 reason, my nice little 40% hate reduction.

So while the OP want to think its spell quality only, bards do come in flavours. And the flavour presented above is the bottom line. A raid using a boxed troub for hate reduction will perform less then a raid with a player using the bard to its fullest capacity. Its that simple.

Threads like this breed some nasty players too. A troub in a 6-man group thinking he can afk for example. Its not how to play a troub, end of discussion.

[Dystopya]

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vinterskugge wrote:

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Dystopya wrote:

WTB a rope to strangle everyone who suggests more 30 second buffs....This is how we were in the beginning, buffs that lasted like a minute, it sucked. It wasnt fun. Explore your character, theres ways to raid and keep it real. Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid. I found out how due to expiramentation. If thinking outside of the box to achieve more dps than most of the 'dps' classes on the raid isnt skill, i dont know what is.F having to cast some jesters crap wannabe every 10 seconds. My hands cry just thinking about that.

Message Edited by Dystopya on 07-12-2006 01:31 PM

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I don't mean reduce the duration on our existing buffs, just give us more Jester's style buffs to use, that we have to use at the right time on the right person to get maximum effect.

Anyway. how does casting buffs make you hands hurt but spells/ca's not?

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Because casting 5 buffs at the getgo and changing one or two every 30 minutes is not casting a 30 second duration buff every 35 seconds on various raid members. I dont know, id rather be focused on the mob my raid is fighting, like every other class in the game.

[Dystopya]

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Sanju wrote:

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Dystopya wrote:

Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid.

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Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol).  I never said that we can't occasionally put up good dps (or even consistently put up "good" dps), or that doing so doesn't require skill. In the right group/situation I can and have done very well on many parses.That's not my point, though. While I do think that we need a base dps increase, it still won't change the fact that our buffs (except for two of them) are unspectacular, our debuffs are also a joke, and there simply is no skill whatsoever in performing our primary role as a buffing class. The only "skill" regarding our buffs is knowing which would be optimal to run for any given situation/group -- and even a monkey can be told which buttons to press to "set and forget" the right buffs.If I wanted to rule the parses, I'd roll a dps class -- oh, wait, I did that already with my 55 and climbing Conjuror (which is a hell of a lot more fun to play, by the way, in any situation (solo/group/raid)).

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If I had a parse to post, I would. I can assure you that my scouts and casters are not slacking and im consistanly bringing 700-900 dps ranged to the table.I strongly disagree with your opinions. Our buffs do not suck and our debuffs do not suck. ''Debuffs - 2k mental resist debuff? 654 to all magical resist debuff? So far thats 2600 to mental which benefits us, chanters, and i dont know who else. Throw in Zanders adept three and youve debuffs mental [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near 3k and everything else [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near 1k. Everyone who plays a troub is constantly saying how Demoralizing and Discante suck.... I dont see how. I can see a difference in the MT's hp drops when their up and when their not, when we dont have certain classes available on the raid. Discante also drops agi of the target by 153. It doesnt take a genius to tell you that this effects the raids melee dps rates on mobs. Add to the fact that these are encounter and not single target and cast fairly quickly. People not using these spells because they 'suck' quite frankly are missing a good chunk of our utility and raid effectiveness. Buffs - Not good? Are you people high? I dont know what you guys want? 1k to all stats? I can be put in a melee or MT group and while its not the best use of my class, I can still bring things to the table that will benefit either group. Now put me in a caster group and its time to wreck house. We are probably one of the most versatile of any class out there.

[Godzmodi]

just saying if  went afk during a raid no one would notice, for we dont really make taht much of an impact... now if a healer or an illusionist or assassin or brigand went afk, we would konw about it cause we could tell. we are there for mana regen/dehate, thats all they care about, im lucky to get procs sometimes.

[Sanju]

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Dystopya wrote:

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Sanju wrote:

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Dystopya wrote:

Im to the point where im doing more ranged damage than most of the other scouts and some of the casters on my raid.

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Post a parse. I'd be willing to bet that the scouts/casters that you're beating are slacking or just suck (or by "scouts" and "casters" you really mean Dirges and Coercers, lol). 

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If I had a parse to post, I would. I can assure you that my scouts and casters are not slacking and im consistanly bringing 700-900 dps ranged to the table.

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If you're beating ANY scouts other than Bards, or any casters other than Enchanters with 700-900 dps, then, yes, I'm sorry to tell you they either suck or they're slacking. Sorry, but it's the truth.Our buffs: simply don't make a difference. Stat buffs are worthless when the stats you're buffing are already capped. Haste is ok, but less useful than dps buff. Aria is nice, but like Haste it'll typically only benefit part of the dps group. I stand by my statement that the only 2 buffs that really matter (i.e. that anyone would noticed if they weren't up) are Bria's and Alin's.Our debuffs: are minimally effective. Demoralizing is probably the best of them, but our raids typically try to run with 4 bards (2 Troubs 2 Dirges) and I don't think the debuffs stack (at least no one's ever noticed a difference when one discante is on the mob verses 4). I still use them, but they're not effective enough that I've ever heard the MT call for any Bard debuffs (unlike rogues' or some healer debuffs).

[vinterskugge]

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Sanju wrote:

If you're beating ANY scouts other than Bards, or any casters other than Enchanters with 700-900 dps, then, yes, I'm sorry to tell you they either suck or they're slacking. Sorry, but it's the truth.

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Yeah - All your rogues, predators, sorcerers and summoners should be well over 1k dps, and your illusiuonists probably should as well if they're not doing enchanter stuff.  In the Halls of Seeing the other day I played around with my group and set it up to maximise my person DPS (before you say anything Angua, this isn't how we do every raid, I was just bored ).  With pretty much every proc I could get, I was pulling out 1100 dps on single target named encounters (Pain, Suffering, etc).  And I was nowhere near the top of the parse with that, even the ranger and warlock beat me.

[Dystopya]

I guess all my players suck then, /cheers for pointing that out.I dont know what to say, weve beaten everything aside from Venekor, and were as geared out to the teeth as we can be from the encounters we have beaten.Our casters get over 1k every now and then, but as of the recent conjy changes and aggro problems with wizards theyre sitting at around 600. We debuff to the hilt, scouts sit at around 700-800ish. The only classes we dont have represented are Monk, Illusionist, Swashbuckler, and Assassin. Perhaps not having one of those four classes is why we suck so bad.

Message Edited by Dystopya on 07-16-2006 10:46 AM

[Godzmodi]

our assassins are always #1 followed by brigand and/or swash *usuaully and* and then pet classes followed by wiz/warlock, all being over 1k dps, im usually right below this with the enchanter and monk is right after that. add a fury dps somwhere.

[Sanju]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], this turned into a dps discussion.  Forget our dps! I'd rather have a skill based system for raid buffing and/or utility, instead of the current passive system. Whether that comes in the form of twisting, instruments, or sonething completely different matters not to me. I don't want the only skill a Troubador needs in raids to be maximizing dps, because that's dumb. If I wanted to concentrate on maxing my dps I'd make an assassin.