Troubadours, A New Hope. Ep IV

[Quelionis]

This was posted by Naginaka, or Nagitana, anyway the guy who invented the horse. Good info, but clearly lacking in inputting what direction they are going with Troubadours, after all we have 2 weeks until release of the changes, plenty of time to make overhauls of any class.

 

Since the NDA is down and this was posted on the beta boards that many people cannot see, here is the comment from EJDev.

Hello troubadors. As you may have noticed, we're moving on to evaluating the subjective gameplay concerns of the revamp. Here is a list of concerns I've compiled from this thread (and other sources):

Short duration (10s or less) Buffs - Examine duration versus usability. Goal: These spells should feel powerful but not annoying. (Requiem of Reflection, etc.)

DPS concerns (All Melee) - We've had a few under-the-hood issues that have caused melee damage (including Combat Arts) to be extremely reduced. This should be resolved shortly, if not already.

Swan Song line - Evaluating overall impact and strategy in making the Troubador the "caster"-oriented bard. Will be looking at adding some benefit for non-casters (possibly defensive as suggested on the forums)

Aria of Exaltation - Evaluating overall effectiveness and desirability of this song

Selos Song of Travel clarification - This won't be returning for the revamp/Expansion. If it does return in the future, it will be an upgrade to the Selo's line or similar line shared by all bards.

!!General Charms - Evaluating ways to make this a viable dungeon spell.
--Charm is not intended to be a long duration spell (Troubador version will likely be 3 minutes to 5 minutes)
--Charm will begin to affect Single up-arrow and Double up-arrow opponents. However, charming these powerful opponents will cause them to be much less effective. They will fight in similar effectiveness to their no up-arrow counterparts.

!!General Control Spells - The revamp has greatly impacted the various control spells (Mez, Stun, Stifle, Root). As part of an overall re-evaluation, we will be taking a look at cast/re-use/duration times for all Control spells, and specifically Enchanter control spells since this is a significant role for these professions. (Obviously, this is a major concern for Troubadors as well.)

Functionality
Breathtaking Bellow - Evaluating rank upgrade stats
Zander's Choral Rebuff - Adding working effects to this spell.

 

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

 

 

OK now what? Does fixing (yes it is broken) Swan Song make a Troubadour a playable class in any situation? How about the rest of the BS that is part of Troub revamp? Single con slot self only buff? Give me a break, why in the ____ would I want to use a self only buff when I could/should have something better for the whole group, at 1 con slot cost!

 

Troubs can reduce mental mitigation to SOE and back, for who? Troubadours and Illusionists? What other classes primary DD is mental? "Hey guys Im Bobby the Troubadour and this is my friend Pinnocle, hes an illusionist, with me around hes our DPS" How about adding some other debuffs that others can benefit from?

 

Troubadours are not ready to be released as is for the expansion, they went on a strange tangent with the class and it really does not work with this game.

 

 

 

 

 

[Calthine]

OMG, ty so much for the cross post from the Beta Boards!!!  

[Swift_M]

---

Quelionis wrote:

 

OK now what? Does fixing (yes it is broken) Swan Song make a Troubadour a playable class in any situation? How about the rest of the BS that is part of Troub revamp? Single con slot self only buff? Give me a break, why in the ____ would I want to use a self only buff when I could/should have something better for the whole group, at 1 con slot cost!

 

Troubs can reduce mental mitigation to SOE and back, for who? Troubadours and Illusionists? What other classes primary DD is mental? "Hey guys Im Bobby the Troubadour and this is my friend Pinnocle, hes an illusionist, with me around hes our DPS" How about adding some other debuffs that others can benefit from?

 

Troubadours are not ready to be released as is for the expansion, they went on a strange tangent with the class and it really does not work with this game.

 

---

Sigh.  Some poeple have absolutely NO clue about what playing a troubadour is like now.  People on these boards are seriously starting to [Removed for Content] me off and I'm ready to just forget these boards all together.  First off, the devs are LISTENING to us, so don't [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  Swan song does need some work and guess what!  They are looking into it.  What more do you want from that?!  As for the single conc self buff, they are meant for soloing or when we want to up our dps with the int (ya as of yesterday int is almost pointless again but things are still getting tweaked).  This spell is still more than worth it for 1 conc now.  Remember EVERYTHING else is 1 conc now too.  So if you are playing haste, you are only using 1 conc now rahter than 2 in the live version. Now for the mental debuff.  I cannot understand how ANYONE would complain about this.  My god!  This debuff is meant for raising OUR dps.  Not others.  It's meant as something we can keep up to help us out!  And you ask how about some other debuffs that help other classes?  Ok, let me count.  There is the entire Kian's DOT line which reduces wis of the encounter encounter, thus decreasing all resists.  There is Trick of the Hunter, which is now a magic debuff to single target as well.  Oppressive Discante to reduce str and agi so the tank and melee can hit more often and take less damage. That dev post just shows that the devs are listening.  After all the complaining on the live and beta boards it's amazing they still take the time on this.  Kudos to SOE for looking into our class still. Despite what anyone else says, troubadour's are more than ready to be released.  I cannot wait until they are.  Right now, I hate live troubs.  I feel so constricted in the buffs I need.  I always have to have 2 conc Swan Song up.  Always need X song for X encounter.  Combat changes give us the versitility that our class so desperatly needs.  Yes, there are some things that need work, but the devs are listening and taking steps to fix the few problems we have. Many people are going to hate me cause of the way I feel, but honestly, the troub community needs to lighten up and stop all the doomsday talk.  It's sickening. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[Seth]

If they give us  some ability to buff MT i will be very very happy.Don't care about my dps or debuff i can do. I'm here for buffing:smileyhappy:

[ForgottenFoundling]

---

Sethis wrote:

If they give us  some ability to buff MT i will be very very happy.Don't care about my dps or debuff i can do. I'm here for buffing:smileyhappy:

---

Please clarify your statement so that it reflects your true desires for buffing.  As of right now you look rather ignorant because we DO have ability to buff the MT (str/sta, elemental, arcane, divine, magic resists).  If you're hoping for buffing defense, well we do not have that.

[Seth]

you are ignorant of all other class so . Esoterisme (mental, magie, and divine) are easily maxed without troubador, near all priest subclass can buff it. Ok for Stam and Elemental but other do that better than us.

[Swift_M]

---

Sethis wrote:

you are ignorant of all other class so . Esoterisme (mental, magie, and divine) are easily maxed without troubador, near all priest subclass can buff it. Ok for Stam and Elemental but other do that better than us.

---

No, I'm sorry but you are ignorant.  We have the reflection song which against caster mobs owns.  Tested this out a bunch today before beta server went down and, wow it's amazing.  And remember epic mobs will be immune to stiffles and stuns now as they should have been.  So this will be even more important.  Resists are always going to be very important to anyone, whether it is MT or not.  If you are fighting a lvl 64 mob, you will need 6400 to a resist to soft cap it with the current system.  To reach that you will need multiple classes usually.  STA = more hp so thats a bonus.  And while other classes can do these better, guess what!  We can do that at the same time!  We also lower the overall hate that the group will gain (except fighters).  This is invaluable as heals and wards generate tons of aggro on the MT.  I'm assuming you are one of those troubs who hasn't tried any of these changes yet but you feel you need to cry nerf every chance you get.  Sit down, look at what we have.  TRY IT OUT!!! Then make your assumptions. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[ForgottenFoundling]

---

Sethis wrote:

you are ignorant of all other class so . Esoterisme (mental, magie, and divine) are easily maxed without troubador, near all priest subclass can buff it. Ok for Stam and Elemental but other do that better than us.

---

LOL, okay guy, whatever...  I merely pointed out that we have buffs that benefit the MT.  I didn't state in any way how useful it is or compare it to other classes.  I just stated we have buffs and asked you to clarify yourself.  If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.  It seems that you want some kind of miracle buff so that you can keep your place in the MT car.  /shrug

You'll most likely stay in that MT group for your regen purposes, you might have to share your group with a dirge, coercer or enchanter, though.  Power regen will be king and the MT group is where it is most vital.

Honestly, I like how the revamped troubie is shaping up.  We're a lot more interesting than we used to be.  It'll take a little more work to see how we fit in various situations, but it seems like we'll have something for every occasion.

[Andric_D]

prety much with Swift_M on this. While I am not happy with the changes to troubadors actually playing one its a lot closer to being good than reading teh skills/buffs and relating them to the live game. The whole combat game is rebalanced and dps is pretty much relative to what your fighting and beta mobs are scaled diferently than on live - basically trhey have elss hp etc and die faster than on live mostly. The devs are looking at our role/skills and have seem to have taken our views on board in the process and I have soem real hope that they will make teh changes needed to improve our role and re-align some skills. There is nothing wrong in buffing casters except when thats basically all we do- imo we should buff the whole group not just the MT or the caster or whatever subsection of it. from the dev post they understand the arguement and are looking seriously at it which is great news. on mental mitigation - we have like one skil now to reduce it? guess what its the resist we need and as its on teh snare skill its a bit of a pain to keep on teh mob but it makes a large diference to dps. along with kians destructive line which does good dmage to a single over tiem and great to minions/groups  it is mental based but also reduces wisdom  which reduces all resist. these two skills in tandem make near all out CA's work better and also kians does a lot of damage just by itself - its a great grey mob/afk killer too.

Message Edited by Andric_D on 09-01-2005 05:46 AM

[Cuz]

---

Swift_M wrote:

---

Quelionis wrote:

 

OK now what? Does fixing (yes it is broken) Swan Song make a Troubadour a playable class in any situation? How about the rest of the BS that is part of Troub revamp? Single con slot self only buff? Give me a break, why in the ____ would I want to use a self only buff when I could/should have something better for the whole group, at 1 con slot cost!

 

Troubs can reduce mental mitigation to SOE and back, for who? Troubadours and Illusionists? What other classes primary DD is mental? "Hey guys Im Bobby the Troubadour and this is my friend Pinnocle, hes an illusionist, with me around hes our DPS" How about adding some other debuffs that others can benefit from?

 

Troubadours are not ready to be released as is for the expansion, they went on a strange tangent with the class and it really does not work with this game.

 

---

Sigh.  Some poeple have absolutely NO clue about what playing a troubadour is like now.  People on these boards are seriously starting to [Removed for Content] me off and I'm ready to just forget these boards all together.  First off, the devs are LISTENING to us, so don't [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  Swan song does need some work and guess what!  They are looking into it.  What more do you want from that?!  As for the single conc self buff, they are meant for soloing or when we want to up our dps with the int (ya as of yesterday int is almost pointless again but things are still getting tweaked).  This spell is still more than worth it for 1 conc now.  Remember EVERYTHING else is 1 conc now too.  So if you are playing haste, you are only using 1 conc now rahter than 2 in the live version.

Now for the mental debuff.  I cannot understand how ANYONE would complain about this.  My god!  This debuff is meant for raising OUR dps.  Not others.  It's meant as something we can keep up to help us out!  And you ask how about some other debuffs that help other classes?  Ok, let me count.  There is the entire Kian's DOT line which reduces wis of the encounter encounter, thus decreasing all resists.  There is Trick of the Hunter, which is now a magic debuff to single target as well.  Oppressive Discante to reduce str and agi so the tank and melee can hit more often and take less damage.

That dev post just shows that the devs are listening.  After all the complaining on the live and beta boards it's amazing they still take the time on this.  Kudos to SOE for looking into our class still.

Despite what anyone else says, troubadour's are more than ready to be released.  I cannot wait until they are.  Right now, I hate live troubs.  I feel so constricted in the buffs I need.  I always have to have 2 conc Swan Song up.  Always need X song for X encounter.  Combat changes give us the versitility that our class so desperatly needs.  Yes, there are some things that need work, but the devs are listening and taking steps to fix the few problems we have.

Many people are going to hate me cause of the way I feel, but honestly, the troub community needs to lighten up and stop all the doomsday talk.  It's sickening.

Ridian McNight
50 Troubadour
Enmity
Najena

---

Best. Post. Ever. The revamp looks like it will bring decisions to the class. I love short duration (slightly) stronger buffs. I want to be active, not a buff bot that humours himself a player.

 

On a more cheerfull note:

 

"!!General Charms - Evaluating ways to make this a viable dungeon spell.
--Charm is not intended to be a long duration spell (Troubador version will likely be 3 minutes to 5 minutes)
--Charm will begin to affect Single up-arrow and Double up-arrow opponents. However, charming these powerful opponents will cause them to be much less effective. They will fight in similar effectiveness to their no up-arrow counterparts."

 

If I remember correctly the screenshots showed that our charms lasted a few seconds, so having them at a few minutes is awsome news. Also that last part almost sounds like we can actually control them! That's sexy. Can anyone tell me if any of this is in beta / test? Or just tell me where my reading comprehention went wrong if we can't / wont control them. :p

 

[Bubba12]

Interesting Quote:  ...Sigh.  Some poeple have absolutely NO clue about what playing a troubadour is like now. 

 

I guess my point would be this, our class should not be changed so radically that we no longer have a clue of how to play. Additionally, most of us aren't being given the opportunity to learn how to play this new class.

 

 That being said, most of us are capable of critical thinking and we able to read how the class is being changed. At the very least, we should be able to theorize the effect on the class. My analogy would be that if I see a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk; I don't have to taste, touch, or smell it in order to know what it is.  I would, however,  hazard a guess that most us don't like the changes in the focus of the class and are less troubled by the perceived loss of power.

 

As for the changes in the buffs, most troubadors will likely play the same buffs 90% of time regardless of the situation. I envision that like live is now that most Troubadors will only swap out one buff, maybe two. In that regard, your situation from live isn't very different except your buffs are weaker and more focused than on live. What we can't tell is that if the weaker buff is as useful because the mobs are weaker.

 

Which buffs we play are moot to how the class is played, you put them up and go about your business. It is very rare that you change them during the course of an evening.

 

Two of the things I don't care for is the loss of power drain on the arrow shot (sorry, I forget the name) and the one concentration on the self buff. I was always darting in and out of combat to fire my bow, now i will simply stand in one place and mash buttons. In a way, this also reducing our DPS by putting our power drain on a non-damage spell as opposed to a damaging spell. I also feel that one concentration for a self buff is a little excessive.

 

That the developers are listening may not matter for it seems that they still care little for the opinions of their players. With the majority of troubadors saying "I don't want to buff casters as my main focus" and they are simply going to " Evaluate the impact and strategy of making a troubador a caster buff class." Any other business in the world would be running like hell from those changes because it is antagonizing their customer base. It is a good thing they have a captive audience.

 

Just some random thoughts from someone on the outside looking in. You can bet your bottom dollar that when this goes live and I finally get to kiss this pig; I will be back to coment on it.

 

Colin

Message Edited by Bubba1234 on 08-31-2005 10:18 PM

[Swift_M]

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

Interesting Quote:  ...Sigh.  Some poeple have absolutely NO clue about what playing a troubadour is like now. 

 

I guess my point would be this, our class should not be changed so radically that we no longer have a clue of how to play. Additionally, most of us aren't being given the opportunity to learn how to play this new class. That is EXACTLY what my point is.  You haven't been given that opportunity yet.  Once you have tried this out for yourself you will realize its all changed for the better.

 

 That being said, most of us are capable of critical thinking and we able to read how the class is being changed. At the very least, we should be able to theorize the effect on the class. My analogy would be that if I see a pile of dog crap on the sidewalk; I don't have to taste, touch, or smell it in order to know what it is.  I would, however,  hazard a guess that most us don't like the changes in the focus of the class and are less troubled by the perceived loss of power. When it comes to a class that is meant to be as diverse as we are, you simply cannot stand back and look at it and assume its all going to suck.  MY analogy would be if you have hear bad things about a restaurant, then automatically assume it must be crap and never go, you would have no clue what you are talking about.  Once you goto said restaurant and realize the people complaining about it were idiots, then you can comment on what said restaurant was like.

 

As for the changes in the buffs, most troubadors will likely play the same buffs 90% of time regardless of the situation. I envision that like live is now that most Troubadors will only swap out one buff, maybe two. In that regard, your situation from live isn't very different except your buffs are weaker and more focused than on live. What we can't tell is that if the weaker buff is as useful because the mobs are weaker. Which buffs we play are moot to how the class is played, you put them up and go about your business. It is very rare that you change them during the course of an evening. Most troubs I talk to change their song line up consitantly now.  We have so many options.  We can take on whatever role is needed.  Yes I have a certain song line up I use when soloing.  And there are group situations where it works well and I might only swamp 1 or 2 songs.  But when the group changes, I change.  My songs change when fighting a mob that is a caster vs melee even now.  You see something isnt working for your situation, you can change it.  Granted there are a lot of lazy bards out there who won't, but they are losing a lot of the "power" we have.

 

 Two of the things I don't care for is the loss of power drain on the arrow shot (sorry, I forget the name) and the one concentration on the self buff. I was always darting in and out of combat to fire my bow, now i will simply stand in one place and mash buttons. In a way, this also reducing our DPS by putting our power drain on a non-damage spell as opposed to a damaging spell. I also feel that one concentration for a self buff is a little excessive. You still can dart in and out of combat to use the bow attack.  I do it all the time.  You aren't losing dps as it is all relative to the mobs now.  I do agree with the power replenshment on it however since that was moved to the actual line used for power draining there isn't much of a problem.  Combat has change so you have plenty of time to fire off the power drain IF you need the power.  Remember we have some of the best power regen available now.  As for the since conc on the self buff, no comment because you obviously didn't read anything I said further up.

 

That the developers are listening may not matter for it seems that they still care little for the opinions of their players. With the majority of troubadors saying "I don't want to buff casters as my main focus" and they are simply going to " Evaluate the impact and strategy of making a troubador a caster buff class." Any other business in the world would be running like hell from those changes because it is antagonizing their customer base. It is a good thing they have a captive audience. This is what [Removed for Content] me off the most.  My whole point was that troubs are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing like crazy.  This is why troubs have no clue what-so-ever about how this class will be played.  WE DO NOT BUFF CASTERS AND ONLY CASTERS!!  People llook through the song list and assume they know everything when in fact they know nothing.  We buff melee very well, yet we can now buff casters.  Amazing isn't it.  Again, wait to try it before you go around making assumptions.  I'm sick of seeing that.

---

Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[Pickup]

I've been posting messages supporting the troubador changes since I first read about them.  Far too many troubs seem to think that we must be in the MT group for some reason and unfortunately this is true atm.  What happens if 2 troubs turn up for the same raid?  Yes atm that is rare, but in my guild there are 2 level 50 and 1 mid 40s troubs (and about 4 40+ Dirges too) so it will be more common.  With the current combat system if I was in charge of a raid and already had a dirge or troub for the MT group I would take a true dps class over another troub or dirge anytime.  Luckily that isn't how most guilds select people for raids, but it doesn't stop me feeling a little guilty because I know that atm if I'm not in the MT group a lot of other classes would be a better replacement for me (luckily my class isn't the only one to be in this situation atm there are a lot of them). When the new combat system goes live this will no longer be the case.  Yes in certain situations you might find yourself not in the MT group in a raid, but you can be truly confident that whatever group you find yourself in you are now really making a difference to that group and what it can do.

[Seth]

Troubador in beta test atm are MAINLY buffbot caster. No only but mainly.

After the release and for 10 month troubador have a job. swift M maybe you are happy with the new job of troubador but it is not the case of the majority. Maybe 9/10 of troubador ATM are angry about the change. It will break a roaster of lot of raiding guild (yeah guild who focus on melee, why take a trouba over a dirge? reroll for the troubador)

[Seth]

Pickup What troubador bring for a group melee DPS? Regen mana and hast? Look at the spell of illu you will be impressive. Groupe Mage DPS a nuke at 300 every 3  or 4 nuke? another wizard will be far more usefull.

Message Edited by Sethis on 09-01-2005 01:50 AM

[Swift_M]

---

Sethis wrote:

Troubador in beta test atm are MAINLY buffbot caster. No only but mainly.

After the release and for 10 month troubador have a job. swift M maybe you are happy with the new job of troubador but it is not the case of the majority. Maybe 9/10 of troubador ATM are angry about the change. It will break a roaster of lot of raiding guild (yeah guild who focus on melee, why take a trouba over a dirge? reroll for the troubador)

---

Tell me, are you even in beta?  Have you tried the changes for yourself? Give me your reasons with first hand experience (grouped with melee, casters, a mix of both, MT group set up, raids, solo, and any other situation -- all of which I have tried and that is where I am pulling my facts from) and I might think a little higher of your posts.  Until you can tell me exactly how we are so broken, every comment you make about us "mainly" being buffbots are complete BS.  Thanks you and goodbye. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[Andric_D]

hmm How are we not caster buff bots when its been said by devs that we are currently the caster orientated bard? Additionally several of our group buffing abilities are aimed primarily at buffing casters. Its  a pretty easy conclusion to reach that.. we are currently designed to mainly buff casters. Throw in teh very short ranges on group buffs meaning tht teh group must be witin 10m of you  &  you have a situation where if we are assigned to buff casters in  a raid situation we canot do much else but buff teh casters as our nukes/dot are moslty very short range. Thata pretty much a definition of a buff bot. With the fact that we add less dps in a caster group than another caster we have a problem. It looks liek SOE have seen the problem and are looking at it. I am confident they can fix the situation but to say things are all right now is very much a matter of opinion and one I disagree with. Swit_M said "That is EXACTLY what my point is.  You haven't been given that opportunity yet.  Once you have tried this out for yourself you will realize its all changed for the better." - sorry but that is not corect at all from my or many others view from beta. You may feel everythign is all good but it is not for a large number of others. IMO and borne out by the overwhelming majority of troubadors  whom expressed an opinion on beta either posted or in tells - fixes and adjustments will have to be made to the class and its design before the changes go live for your statement to remotly true for the majority of troubadors. While we can buff melee we certainly are not optimal for it and our buffing of casters does not measure up in desirability or effect as our sister calss can buff mellee. Haste is capped, our mellee buff song from level 15 or whatever at master 2 isnt all that, our regen is handy but not awesome and we buff str and sta. This does not add up to awesome mellee buffs at all. tehy are usefull yes but not great atall especially as haste is capped and it seems enchanters can now single buff folks outside their group with it. Quite honestly SOE are looking at changing how we are on beta for a reason - we do not measure up well and that lots of troubadors do not like or enjoy the class as it is on beta right now. While it is not so bad now that we need a total rewrite to be good we do need changes.

Message Edited by Andric_D on 09-01-2005 11:40 AM

[Catl]

Unfortunately the Bard class was crippled on arrival.  No bard run speed buffs, no instruments, limited utility.  Pre-nerfed I would call it.  Now we get some changes that bring the class closer to what it should have been to start with.  Not there yet, but closer. It's no surprise that people are disappointed.  This is true for many classes.  Perhaps tanks make out better.  I think the devs are way into heavy metal armor dudes.  All other classes though seem less than happy with the expansion.  I suspect that the devs want to save something for 2 or 3 years from now so they are showing an overabundance of stinginess for the time being.  They also seem to have no plan of where we are going in this game.  They seem to have a day to day strategy on the beta servers.  Major content is not just tweaked, but appears and dissappears in a day or two.  This is kind of late in the development stage for that sort of nonsense.  As far as the Bard class goes, give us what we should have gotten to begin with.  Seriously, we should not have to beg for it or have it taken under advisement.   After that, we can discuss what we get to make us smile.  Some people think that the class will be more interesting to play after the expansion.  In my opinion, that was a mighty low hurdle.

[WorldsAway_Nybor]

Thanks for posting this, nice to know they are listening and looking to make positive changes (love the charm idea!).  

 

Message Edited by WorldsAway_Nybor on 09-01-2005 05:38 AM

[Bubba12]

Swifty said;........."This is what [Removed for Content] me off the most.  My whole point was that troubs are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing like crazy.  This is why troubs have no clue what-so-ever about how this class will be played.  WE DO NOT BUFF CASTERS AND ONLY CASTERS!!  People llook through the song list and assume they know everything when in fact they know nothing.  We buff melee very well, yet we can now buff casters.  Amazing isn't it.  Again, wait to try it before you go around making assumptions.  I'm sick of seeing that."

Correct, we don't buff only casters but our main focus is buffing casters as opposed to melees. I also resent the fact that you assume that we know nothing. I can read the buff list and see four or five caster specific buffs as opposed to no melee specific buffs and easily reach the conclusion that we are meant to buff casters. As it stands on live now, we buff every class, we are welcome in every situation, and the concern is that when these changes go live, we will find ourselves in situations we don't help the group as much as we have been.

The other point we are making is that most of us like how our class is being played now and don't want the focus of it to change to something that we didn't sign up for. 

I am happy for you if you like this class. I, however, do not relish the thought of buffing casters or actually, buffing mages as my main focus. The thought of going from being incredibly useful to all classes to being useful to three is disconcerting to say the least.

Colin

 

[Cuz]

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

The other point we are making is that most of us like how our class is being played now and don't want the focus of it to change to something that we didn't sign up for. 

---

Well of course a lot of people like how troubs are now: over powered and breaking the game. Remove all your buff stacking, cuz that's a bug, and would you still want to play troub? (Not really asking you directly Bubba   )

 

When I picked troub I didn't say: : "Oh hey look a melee buffer, that's my class!" Nope, it was: "Hey a buffer, I love being utility!". As long as I can make others better, that's the class I picked. Period.

 

Saying that we're a mage buff bot is foolish. Do we buff mages? Yeah that's evident. If you slap your buffs and then hit /follow on a mage and you feel you're doing ok, well there's nothing sony can do that will make you any good.

[Bubba12]

I suspect it isn't Troubadors that are breaking the game, otherwise they would just change the one class. As for buff stacking, I rarely do it because the hit points added by the second and third buffs are minimal compared to what I have to take down to put the buff up.

I picked this class to make everyone better, not because I wanted to help mages nuke better. Granted, we will still buff fighters and mages, but our archtypes specific buffs largely help only one archtype. This isn't what I signed up for. Looking at the direction they are moving the bard classes, I would have choosen differently.

Colin

[Swift_M]

The troubadour now can buff casters quite well.  If this the only thing we do?  Not by a long shot.  You seem to think the troubadour should be the best melee buffer there is.  Sure, we aren't the best you can get but it doesn't mean that we have no ability to do so.  It's the same way with the dirge, they can buff melee just as well as we can buff casters, however they are very limited in their caster buffing (more so than we are in our melee buffing mind you).  I asked for some examples of how you think we are so broken.  All I read was your mad that we now buff casters!  Well troubs have been asking for something here for a long time.  Granted SOE made a lot of our moves caster oriented. As for the effect radius being "too small" that we'd have to stay back with the casters.. HA!  The radius on every song is exactly the same as on live.  I have tested my song range in many zones (live and beta) and the range is plenty far enough that we will have NO issues providing buffs to casters while meleeing X mob ourselves.  Another misconception, there is NO haste cap.  Our haste songs are very powered and with the changes to cast times on CAs it does deliver what it promises, 15% haste will increase dps approx 15%.  I have parsed this multiple times after each stage of tested to see if this still remains true, it does.  Please don't spout off misinformation. Now, the big one.  Because we have been geared towards casters more you all assume we cannot but melee at all.  Lets look at this.  Will start with the only ones anyone every quotes and go from there. Haste line:  X% haste = X% dps increase, the perfect melee song.  Not possitive on this but chanter haste is now single target conc buffs meaning they cannot very many and is group only.  This would make ours even better as it affects the whole group for 1 conc.  Equal to the dirge dps increase song in total group dps increase percent. Raxxyl's line:  Str means higher dmg, Sta means more hp (for tank in exp group, MT in raids, anyone else do the random ripost/ae/accidental aggro).  Equal to dirge for the Str, dirge gives more power with the agi rather than hp with our sta.  Even trade off. Bria's Power line:  Power regen has always been a rather rare commodity.  Even more so after changes.  Only power regen buffs you can get are group based conc buffs.  IE for those melee to not run out of power on a raid, we will do wonders here. You can use power a lot faster in beta if you try because of shorter reuse timers and lower power pools.  Do not underestimate this song.  Same song for both troub and dirge.  Equal here. Resists (on raid):  Higher the resist the less likely your melee will need to dodge a magic based AE, meaning more dps from melee on X mob.  Overall better than the dirge as we can buff 5 different resists (magic, mental, divine, heat, cold), they can only buff 2 (poison and disease). Alin's Detaunt line:  Aggro is a lot easy to steal with the changes (again why I asked you for examples).  This song will mean your melee can go full out with less worry of pulling aggro, thereby indirectly increasing oveall dps a ton.  Since fighters are not affected by this, even in a group situation this song can be a complete life saver.  Dirges have a targetted taunt.  On a raid we kill dirges in aggro management for the group hands down. Discante line (str/agi debuff):  Whether it is a raid or exp group, lower the agi of the mob lowers the avoidance.  Thus making your melee's accuracy go up which means overall dps increase yet again.  Not to mention the str debuff so less dmg taken from the tank too.  Oh and remember this will also help the ENTIRE raid since it's a debuff.  Dirges and troubs get this so again, equal here. Lore's line:  Decreases tthe defense of the target mob thereby lowering mobs avoidance again.  Which will increase the overall dps even more of any melee as well as help out the entire raid in a raiding situation.  One up for us as dirges do not get this. Not to mention we still have others we can use to up our own dps if you want as well (Daelis for 1 conc, kian's DOT, regen to decrease overall downtime in exp by releaving healing from healers, etc).  We have a lot we can offer directly and indirectly.  Yes dirges get a few other songs that are made for melee (their proc songs for instance) but that doesn't break us.  And I will be the first one to admit that we still have problems with our class that needs to be addressed asap.  But not being able to buff melee is NOT one of them. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[ForgottenFoundling]

As has been pointed out,  for those of you that want to be in the MT group still, buffing melee will not help keep the MT alive.  They need, str, sta, defense, mitigation, regen, resists and healing.  That's pretty much it.  Most strong MTs in the raiding game don't even try to attack contesteds for fear of heavy ripostes. 

 

By us being in the MT group:

-we provide HP from STA

-we provide an increase in the power pool through STR

-we provide mana regen

-we strengthen the healers

-we have a deaggro line for the non fighters (let the reactives roll)

-we have a magic reflect shield (situational, but effective)

-we buff needed resists

 

Also, with the amount of ranged attacks/spells we do not need to be in the MTs back pocket to do good DPS.  This will allow us to be back (possibly out of AE/WoF range) for contesteds and still be a contribution to DPS. 

 

It seems to me we're pretty decent atm and if they tweak swan song to be more effective, we will be in even better shape.  Put us in a caster damage group and the DPS to aggro management will be off the charts!!!

[Bubba12]

An question on the haste line - do we keep attacking when we use CA's now? If so, then it is a direct increase; if not, then it is a partial increase. I know that on live I don't spend much time on auto-attack unless I am oom or killing green/grey mobs. Actually, in most fights I could be buffed with 200% haste and not receive much benefit from it. If the new combat system has us spending a lot of time in auto-attack, then I am leary of the changes at best.

The developers themselves called us "caster-oriented". The buffs you mentioned for the most part affect both casters and tanks equally. My comment was that our archtype specific buffs affect only mages to any extent.

Haste line-see above question/comment

Raxxly's, Bria's,  benefit most archtypes equally

Detaunt and to some extent resists (fewer hp ergo less of an ability to survive an AE) help mages more.

Discante and lore help the melees classes more.

Swan song, aria of exaltation, and precision of the maestro primarily help mages more.

Just a brief perusal shows that we will become better at buffing mage than melees. Again, and i can only say this so many different ways then I run completely out of way to say it. This is a change in the focus of the class, I never would have played a class who primary focus is to buff mages and secondary focus is to buff melees.

I saw a comparison where Precision of the maestro pales in comparison to the dirge version. These are groups that would never be set up in game but it goes a long way to compare the power of the two arts. A similar comparison could be done with one guy of each type in a group. One other note on the spell, people are always auto-attacking but not always casting.

there is a big probleme here. look plz .

A full groupe of 5 caster +1 troub . All caster chain nuke with their faster recast nuke (2sec). the troubador is stun. it will be 6 proc for each caster so 30 proc .

30x119= 3570 damage

A full groupe of fighter/scout with dual . Dual =1,5 delay, so 0,75 swing/sec but with fbss+ this song there will be an hast of 39%. 0,40swing/sec in fact . each melee (dirge no stun with this spell) does 37,5 swing during the song

37,5X6=225 swing for the team for the duration of the spell

225X53= 11925 damage .....

I forgot the troub's song take 2X more mana

How accurate is this? Are we stunned? The dirge version doesn't stun. Can we cast spells when this is up? Does an AE spell proc this on every mob in the encounter?

Does requiem of reflection require spell damage to activate or any damage? The reason I ask is that mobs are always swinging but not always casting. It would, on the surface, seem difficult to ever get this to activate on a consistant basis.

I am curious as to what problems you think we have? You seem real rosy on the changes.

Colin

Message Edited by Bubba1234 on 09-01-2005 12:57 PM

[WooTast]

I agree with whoever said "I signed up to be a troub. because I enjoy the support role. I didnt sign up to be exclusively a MT buffer." A group-wise aggro reducer could be a very good utility for us.  Keeping the high dps classes from pulling aggro could be very useful for raids. I think that a lot of troub. players enjoy the fact that the raid leaders always put them in the MT group.  It makes them feel "special."  I'd trade being "special" in that way for wider utility, hands-down.

[Swift_M]

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

An question on the haste line - do we keep attacking when we use CA's now? If so, then it is a direct increase; if not, then it is a partial increase. I know that on live I don't spend much time on auto-attack unless I am oom or killing green/grey mobs. Actually, in most fights I could be buffed with 200% haste and not receive much benefit from it. If the new combat system has us spending a lot of time in auto-attack, then I am leary of the changes at best.

---

We do not auto attack during CA casting and such however the cast times have been reduced.  0.2 seconds for melee based ones so in a melee group, this will not severly affect the dps gained from the haste.  Which is precisely why I said its approx X% haste = X% dps increase.  Some of our spells have  been lowered from 3 seconds to 2 seconds (shrill and eli's lines for instance) so it does affect us to a greater extent but those moves more than make up for it.

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

The developers themselves called us "caster-oriented". The buffs you mentioned for the most part affect both casters and tanks equally. My comment was that our archtype specific buffs affect only mages to any extent.

Haste line-see above question/comment

Raxxly's, Bria's,  benefit most archtypes equally

Detaunt and to some extent resists (fewer hp ergo less of an ability to survive an AE) help mages more.

Discante and lore help the melees classes more.

Swan song, aria of exaltation, and precision of the maestro primarily help mages more.

Just a brief perusal shows that we will become better at buffing mage than melees. Again, and i can only say this so many different ways then I run completely out of way to say it. This is a change in the focus of the class, I never would have played a class who primary focus is to buff mages and secondary focus is to buff melees.

---

We are better at buffing mages then melee.  I'm not disputing that.  Just the fact that we can still buff melee which so many beleive has been totally lost.  We do have songs that will only benefit mages.  We also have some that will only affect melee (ya ya dirges have more, big deal).

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

I saw a comparison where Precision of the maestro pales in comparison to the dirge version. These are groups that would never be set up in game but it goes a long way to compare the power of the two arts. A similar comparison could be done with one guy of each type in a group. One other note on the spell, people are always auto-attacking but not always casting.

there is a big probleme here. look plz .

A full groupe of 5 caster +1 troub . All caster chain nuke with their faster recast nuke (2sec). the troubador is stun. it will be 6 proc for each caster so 30 proc .

30x119= 3570 damage

A full groupe of fighter/scout with dual . Dual =1,5 delay, so 0,75 swing/sec but with fbss+ this song there will be an hast of 39%. 0,40swing/sec in fact . each melee (dirge no stun with this spell) does 37,5 swing during the song

37,5X6=225 swing for the team for the duration of the spell

225X53= 11925 damage .....

I forgot the troub's song take 2X more mana

---

Our version can be a lot more powerful than the dirge version is you are prepared for it.  Our version is effectively triggered off any non physical abilitiy that affects the mob.  This ability only turns off our auto attack and roots us.  We can still use any CA/spell.  What this means is moves such as cheap shot, our snare/mental debuff (2 seperate effects for 1 use means 2 procs), lore's will all proc it as well.  When I use this one a single mob, I have a certain line up I use.  I start with Guviena's (2 procs and all after will hit for more dmg).  Then cheap shot, lore's, bellow (insta cast interrupt), then I fire off mez (1 second cast and yes it even procs off mez).  Then start moving through my 2 second songs (shill and eli's).  So thats around 8 procs just myself in the 12 second period.  Using this move with Aria of Exaltation up as well, gives you a 16% chance to proc like 200 to 350 dmg or so (at master) on all those as well.  And if this procs off anything, it again triggers it's own proc from the 12 second buff.  You can see how our dps can jump using this.  Factor in a ae group and you can imagine the carnage (kians, alins ae dd, bellow, discante line are all encounter based). Now add in other classes.  A paladin has 2 AE magic based moves still that will proc precision.  Hell even poisons from predators and rogues can proc this atm.  In some situations, this move is simply overpowering, but very balanced in others.

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

Does requiem of reflection require spell damage to activate or any damage? The reason I ask is that mobs are always swinging but not always casting. It would, on the surface, seem difficult to ever get this to activate on a consistant basis.

---

The 6% chance buff can be triggered off anything cast that is non physical in nature, the same way things would trigger the precision proc above.  And trust me, against mobs that like to cast, this move triggers a lot.  As a test on beta, we killed an epic x2 that had a nice poison based ae.  The mob liked to cast a few smaller spells right before his big ae stun.  First time we fought it we lost because of this ae, harm touch, and a number of other chain casting this guy was doing.  Round 2 I threw up this song.  We slaughtered him.  We reflected enough spells that it made a huge difference in how hard/easy the fight was.  I even reflected the harm touch (ya i stole aggro at one point =P).

---

Bubba1234 wrote:

I am curious as to what problems you think we have? You seem real rosy on the changes.

---

Swan song is a big one for me.  I never use it what so ever because its not worth it.  The focus barely helps as well.  This is luckily one of the things getting looked at now so hopefully this will become more effective.  Charm, another one being delt with.  Some of the recent changes to INT and STR I don't like because it can make stats seem pointless again (hardly affecting CA or spell damage to any notable degree) but again things are still changing so nothing is final.  A few missing upgrades  to abilities (new selos), missing third new song since song of travel was removed, etc.  There are a few more issures but most are being looked at by the devs so I'm waiting to see what becomes of them. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

[Andric_D]

---

Swift_M wrote:The troubadour now can buff casters quite well.  If this the only thing we do?  Not by a long shot.  You seem to think the troubadour should be the best melee buffer there is.  Sure, we aren't the best you can get but it doesn't mean that we have no ability to do so.  It's the same way with the dirge, they can buff melee just as well as we can buff casters, however they are very limited in their caster buffing (more so than we are in our melee buffing mind you).  I asked for some examples of how you think we are so broken.  All I read was your mad that we now buff casters!  Well troubs have been asking for something here for a long time.  Granted SOE made a lot of our moves caster oriented. I for one do not think we should be the best mellee buffer there is - we should be a good general group buffer - leave specialisation to the specialist classes. i like swaping buffs to suit the group - I just think our selection as it is on beta is weak. As for the effect radius being "too small" that we'd have to stay back with the casters.. HA!  The radius on every song is exactly the same as on live.  I have tested my song range in many zones (live and beta) and the range is plenty far enough that we will have NO issues providing buffs to casters while meleeing X mob ourselves.  The reason this is now too low is that we are now not primarily buffing those in arms reach - those whom are melleeing the mob. The Devs have also said they are going to expand group ranges (on dirges beta thread) for all classes to reduce the problem. Another misconception, there is NO haste cap.  Our haste songs are very powered and with the changes to cast times on CAs it does deliver what it promises, 15% haste will increase dps approx 15%.  I have parsed this multiple times after each stage of tested to see if this still remains true, it does.  Please don't spout off misinformation. I haven't tested it but I was assured there was one and others + enchanters are also convinced there is. Maybe its bugged? Now, the big one.  Because we have been geared towards casters more you all assume we cannot but melee at all.  Lets look at this.  Will start with the only ones anyone every quotes and go from there. Haste line:  X% haste = X% dps increase, the perfect melee song.  Not possitive on this but chanter haste is now single target conc buffs meaning they cannot very many and is group only.  This would make ours even better as it affects the whole group for 1 conc.  Equal to the dirge dps increase song in total group dps increase percent. The damage adds such as dirges get is superior as it affects base weapon damage based on quality and scales with worn or cast haste very well, haste is allegedly capped and reportedly not measurable over 30% - less than our haste + fbss. We will need to try and make a real test of this or get a dev answer to clarify. Also many mellee get group and/or personal haste skills. this makes mellee damage adds far more desirable as they imediatly and expotentially incease with the haste. a bit more haste is not so appealing as its relatively easy to come by while pure damage add is not. spell haste does not exist afaik. Raxxyl's line:  Str means higher dmg, Sta means more hp (for tank in exp group, MT in raids, anyone else do the random ripost/ae/accidental aggro).  Equal to dirge for the Str, dirge gives more power with the agi rather than hp with our sta.  Even trade off. true enough Bria's Power line:  Power regen has always been a rather rare commodity.  Even more so after changes.  Only power regen buffs you can get are group based conc buffs.  IE for those melee to not run out of power on a raid, we will do wonders here. You can use power a lot faster in beta if you try because of shorter reuse timers and lower power pools.  Do not underestimate this song.  Same song for both troub and dirge.  Equal here.Not into competing with dirges but ya equal Resists (on raid):  Higher the resist the less likely your melee will need to dodge a magic based AE, meaning more dps from melee on X mob.  Overall better than the dirge as we can buff 5 different resists (magic, mental, divine, heat, cold), they can only buff 2 (poison and disease).I would like to find a way to test better but it seems to me that WIS adds far more to resists than just the figures. Running our parry/wis defense buff makes for more diference to real battle resists than the resist songs so far in my solo encounters with casting mobs. Infact I suspect cast resists maybe broke and have /bugged this several times. Alin's Detaunt line:  Aggro is a lot easy to steal with the changes (again why I asked you for examples).  This song will mean your melee can go full out with less worry of pulling aggro, thereby indirectly increasing oveall dps a ton.  Since fighters are not affected by this, even in a group situation this song can be a complete life saver.  Dirges have a targetted taunt.  On a raid we kill dirges in aggro management for the group hands down. While it depends some on group make up/raid leaders decision and tactics I feel they are more even than that. We have an edge but again not particularly interesed in competing with dirges. Discante line (str/agi debuff):  Whether it is a raid or exp group, lower the agi of the mob lowers the avoidance.  Thus making your melee's accuracy go up which means overall dps increase yet again.  Not to mention the str debuff so less dmg taken from the tank too.  Oh and remember this will also help the ENTIRE raid since it's a debuff.  Dirges and troubs get this so again, equal here.I think this should be beefed up. And sould debuff wis as well(ok I can dream) Lore's line:  Decreases tthe defense of the target mob thereby lowering mobs avoidance again.  Which will increase the overall dps even more of any melee as well as help out the entire raid in a raiding situation.  One up for us as dirges do not get this.They get better mellee mitigation bebuffs by a ton. again though I do not like the competition aspect between bards - we complement each other or should do not compete for the same spot. the second ability though for us is very good if it works. It did work at start of beta but seems to be broken now - every ability a mob uses cost 40% more power. This can seriously deplete its power and stop it casting its big nukes early. it does seem broken now or else the mobs power pool/useage has near nulified the effect. /bugged - potentially this is a very powerfull ability Not to mention we still have others we can use to up our own dps if you want as well (Daelis for 1 conc, kian's DOT, regen to decrease overall downtime in exp by releaving healing from healers, etc).  We have a lot we can offer directly and indirectly.  Yes dirges get a few other songs that are made for melee (their proc songs for instance) but that doesn't break us.  And I will be the first one to admit that we still have problems with our class that needs to be addressed asap.  But not being able to buff melee is NOT one of them. Kians is increadibly strong - wis debuf is a major resist debuff and coupled with the dot damage is really good on larger groups or long fights. this is imo our current best ability. daelis' since the int nerf is marginal if its worth a concentration. On the dirge point - I couldnt care to much what they do. i want to offer similar level of benefits but through defence and surviability rather than through adding pure damage - thats the class I bought into and the one I want to keep playng if it still exists after the revamp. i think and hope it will but I will no lay quiet awaiting my fate and so i will ty and make my points. I think the focus on our swansong line should help melee resist knockbacks/stuns as well as help casters fizzle less. i think our spell damage adds should affect weapon procs and mellee 'shout'/bezerk type abilities as well as nukes. i think we should buff base defence or preferably enhance melee defence stances while dirges enhance their offensive stances. its not that much change from whats on beta but significant, desirable to groups and screws no other classes over. It also goes a long way to restoring our origial role of defensive bard which is the bard i and others chose to play. Ridian McNight 50 Troubadour Enmity Najena

---

Message Edited by Andric_D on 09-02-2005 02:17 AM

[Calthine]

Can we please get a few more colors in there? 

[Seth]

5 stars for Andric :smileyvery-happy: