Agro and the Brigand

[kyth]

   Now that the Expansion has gone live and we have had some time to play with the combat changes.  I would like to bring something up that I would like the entire community to think about and discuss.  That being (as the tread name states) "agro and the brigand".  I ask that all brigands read this with an open mind.  I do not want to see a flame thread about raiding player vs. casual player.  I want to promote discussion between us all and see if we can come to some kind of agreement.   I feel that as it stands now we are at a disadvantage when it comes to agro.  We simply put generate way too much of it.  With the massive debuffs that our ca's do we can get agro from just about any MT in no time.  Our few tools of agro control are lacking.  Well our "unique" skill line is lacking and has been since beta.  Honestly we have to be hit to really lose agro.  That really does not make much sense to me.   For those brigands that loves the new ruse line you might be saying "hey it lets me get off and lose agro".  Well really the ruse line is not a steady supply of dps.  With all the stuns that exist in the game a lot of the time the counter can wind down before I even get hit.  With a brawler or coercer in the group mobs stay stunned for a long time.  With waiting for the mob to finally get a chance to hit me I lose generally 200 dps if the skill doesn’t get to fire and 100dps if it does.  Yes it is fun to see those 3k+ hits and be in awe of the dmg, but really is it worth it?  Is it worth it to lose that dps for a cool looking high hit? In my opinion it really isn't.  A few if not most of us will be raiding in the next month.  We will be 60 and grouping will not be much of a thing any more.  We will be logging on nightly (or a few times a week) to kill uber_mob_01 or what ever instance zone.  This is when agro management vs. max dps will be a BIG issue.  As it was in the last weeks of beta on raids with a very skilled guardian I could and often did pull agro in 3 ca's.  If I used agro dumps after that I could pull it back in 1-2 more.  I worked a lot on how to actually not get agro and it came down to 1debuff, Evade line,1 more debuff, wait 5 secs,1 more debuff, shadow slip...and then auto attack until I needed to debuff again.  Really that did not make me all too happy.  Now on raids you do not have the luxury to get hit.  Turning a mob could and will wipe an entire raid or in the very least kill all your melee dps.  If one did that often on raids, more then likely one would find themselves deguilded.   How can this be fixed? I believe that if our adversaries line was made to be similar if not the same to the swashbucklers avoid line we would be more equipped to not get agro.  In fact I would like to see both lines really be 20% proc buff to lose 1 threat level, but I doubt we will ever see that.  The massive proc of decreasing threat is a huge advantage swashbucklers get.  I wasn't happy about this in beta, and I am still not happy about this now.  The only way we can get it changed, granted that the community at large wants it changed, is to agree on it.  Then we can /bug /feedback chat with devs until we get it changed.   That really is my feelings with some facts on the subject.  Again I ask that we don’t get into a debate about play style.  Instead, I would like to see a discussion on agro, dps, and the brigand role regarding them. 

      

[DaLurk]

My answer is already in you question :

1debuff, Evade line,1 more debuff, wait 5 secs,1 more debuff, shadow slip...and then auto attack until I needed to debuff again

 

Maxing DPS is just not mashing buttons with the most CA a Brigand can have.

It's staying alive (just as said the Bee Gees)

 

An alive level 25 Brigand with crappy stuff will always outdamage a full-fabled level 60 dead Brigand.

 

Don't take offense that is definitely not a rant at your play style. I just mean, playing a Brigand is not just maxing DPS and debuff, it's knowing when to stop and take a short breath to stay alive. That's a part of the job too.

Message Edited by DaLurker on 10-03-2005 06:05 PM

[Xri]

In groups, I pull agro quite often, and on purpose...

 

But last night, my guild and I went to kill a few X2 raid mobs.  We got a pally, threw Amends on our Warlock, and I used Self Preservation.

 

I pulled agro a single ONE time the whole night by accident, and I was pretty much spamming my CA's the whole time.

 

I see no problem with agro if you know how to control it using the tools/skills available to the various classes.

[kyth]

    Self pres is great, that is why i would prefer to have the upgraded versions that swashbucklers get.  the lvl 59 version at adept 1 is -840 threat. Which is why i would love to have that instead of the adversaries line.

[Prieston]

I don't have a problem pulling aggro. I can pull it when I want, and I can keep from pulling it if I want to. I find our evades and shadowslip work fine and if the tank is worth a lick I can continuously spam combat arts without havin the mob turn on me. I think every class needs to strategize with their CA's and not just think they can continuously spam them all. That ruins the strategy of the game. It's great to maximize DPS, but maximizing dps is not just how fast you can spam your CA's, it's how fast you can spam them without getting killed in the process.

[Twist_nd]

I really haven't had a lot of problems with agro on my Brigand.  It all depends on the tank.  Most of the guild tanks I adventure with have no real problems keeping hate up.  I usually have to button mash without using evade/shadow slip AND it still takes me staying over 400dps (what I see on combat stats) to pull agro for 1 hit.  After the 1 hit, the mob switches back thanks to the our adversaries line.  I generally take a couple hits in normal level grinding and don't really worry about it, but when I start hitting raid mobs, I'll be using the evade/slip to get rid of some of the agro as those mobs will just kill me in 1 hit.

[Xri]

---

kythik wrote:
    Self pres is great, that is why i would prefer to have the upgraded versions that swashbucklers get.  the lvl 59 version at adept 1 is -840 threat. Which is why i would love to have that instead of the adversaries line.

---

Actually, what I would personally love, is our detaunt ability to alternate between the two methods. 

T2 - Self Preservation - Detaunt when hitting.

T4 - Baffle Adversaries - Detaunt when being hit.

T5 - Distract Adversaries - Detaunt when hitting.

T6 - Befuddle Adversaries - Detaunt when being hit.

More flexability in situational usage without having to revert back to the T2 Self Preservation.

[Goonch]

This is not a flame, but I think you are way off. I am not experiencing any of these issues. I only take aggro when I'm trying to [Removed for Content] off my guildie tank or when the mobs are going down so fast it doesn't matter. Our adversaries line is great. If i'm not with a decent tank I throw in the occassional evasion if necessary. I spam CAs like no ones business and keep up with wizzies, warlocks, and assassins no problem, unless its a large AE fight then obviously we are at a slight disadvantage. The only time I occassionally draw aggro now is with dispatch and usually I will just get hit once. But if I were a mob I'd be ticked to if every stat i had got debuffed for 3k . In groups getting hit once won't matter but in raids and important fights i will be more careful for sure. We have no agro issues, IMO.

[Zade_]

It depends on the tank.  I can spam my power dry and never turn a mob with certain tanks and with others I can turn it with autoattack.  The old convention of Guardians being the main tank has changed much tot he dismay of many a guild.  Check other options and you'll see that aggro isn't much of a problem.

[ag]

I can pull aggro from any tank I've grouped with, without exception.I can avoid gaining aggro if I'm cautious, without exception.Despite the above, I think hate generation for our debuffs is a little bit high. I'd like to see it lowered slightly, but as has been mentioned above, when a Brigand rips off all your armor and you're taking EXTRA damage on top of that from all the mitigation/spell debuffs, you tend to get a little cranky. But this is a minor point for me. I'd rather see the Deceit line fixed first, for example.

[xarion_silentha]

I tend to agree w/ kythik on this one.  We need something else for raid mobs.  I really love our current evade but since I've hit 60, the more things I raid the more I see our need for something else.  With the con changes, raid mobs (particularly 67s) are very very resistant to just about everything.  This seems to translate to resisting taunts as well, which is definitely not a good thing for me.  In order to get things rolling smoothly, I need to hit dispatch debilitate and murderous rake as close to the beginning of the fight as possible.   This allows other classes to land necessary spells, such as stuns, stifles, etc.  The problem is that dispatch alone is almost enough to rip agro from even the best tanks.  However, it is worth noting that revoke debuffs enough parry that riposte deaths when you turn it arent usually an issue.  Nevertheless, I still get one shotted when I am hit, so befuddle adversaries doesnt do me much good.  Even if I dont rip agro at the beginning, I'm sure to get agro right away when the tank gets mana tapped to 0.  Really I see two possible solutions: either lower the hate generated from our debuffs or give us some other evade similar to what swashies have.

 

Perhaps they could rework deceit to have a longer duration and have an evade proc attached to it =).  Then it might actually be worth buying.

[ag]

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xarion_silenthand wrote: Perhaps they could rework deceit to have a longer duration and have an evade proc attached to it =). Then it might actually be worth buying.

---

oo. Now THAT is a good idea. And on Ruthless Cunning, too. Good one!

[dayma]

Nothing has really changed for drawing aggro, I could draw it before and I can draw it now.

 

If my tank is at least one level higher than me, I can open up more on the mobs. If not then I have to debuff and wait. 

 

In a raid, I just melee and debuff till about 1/2 xp then go for a round of CA's, then use my lower hate spells. Then I melee and debuff until it hits 25% ,then another  round of CA's and my lower hate spells. When the mob turns red I open up till it's dead. 

 

One final suggestion, in raids, I only use regular poisons. No legendary. These cause more damage and draw more aggro. It seems to have helped me.

 

None of this has changed for me since the update. I haven't raided a ton, but have died enough and seen others die enough to know that all DPS classes on raids are held back.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

 

[TempestStre]

Kyth and I are on the samer server, and bump into eachother every no and again.  So, naturally, as two raiding brigands, we chat about such topics.  Yesterday he and I spent a bit of time talking about this very issue and compared our expereinces, so this topic is rather fresh in my brain.  In regard to different fighter types, I've raided a bit, and at equal level, guardians are still the clear cut answer for tanking anything gx4.  Brawlers are very nice on heroics and two group mobs, but a four group mob will let them avoid, then crush their face with a nice bit of burst damage.  At which point it's tougher for priests to play catch up due to some of the restrictions on their heals at this time.  Regardless, this is about aggro and the brigand. It's very realistic for me to say that I will slide down to 6 CAs for a raid, and play the debuff/stun role.  I can do this and not steal too much aggro.  However, as noted earlier in this thread, mobs that are orange to 60 are highly resistant.  When part of this resist string includes hate generation from whoever is playing the role of MT, debuffing resists and mitigations for 3k, etc etc get's magnified on the hate list.  When this happens, for a brief moment, the brigand finds themselves at the top of the hate list.  This is a very bad thing.  Part of the concept of raiding is putting all of your apples in one basket, and trusting the MT can keep aggro and simplify the encounter by allowing multiple priests to heal one player, and multiple buffs sets be placed on one character.  But I'm sure we all understand that.  So, when for a brief moment, the brigand steals aggro, and the orange con mobs spins on it's axis, smacks the debuffer for 8k, shakes all those debuffs that were crippling it so, ripostes some unfortunate batch of melee's in the raid for 11k, and god forbid barages whatever is in it's line of sight... well, then you have a non-crippled mob returning to your tank, a few dead dps, and bard/paladin trying to get those dps back up to win the day.  Now, while this is ok in exp groups where mobs aren't hitting hard enough to one shot you, in a raid setting this is disaterous.  In fact, even if you're raiding yellow content this isn't the end of the world.  But this scenario against an orange mob will casue more wipes than it prevents.  And all of this is from stunning/debuffing, as a scout, kings of melee dps...  we haven't even used a backstab at this point.  So, what's the solution? There are clearly two schools of thought here.  You can throttle all the way back and play the role of debuffer, pocket your other damage CAs, and rest easy knowing you did something positive in the raid for the day.  Or you can take the viewpoint that there is a bit of adjusting that needs to be done, and that we are a dps class, and that we should be able to use our dps CA's as well as our debuffs in a tough fight.  Now, I'm not implying that we need to be able to spam our skills through the fight and rack up 480~500 dps on a raid mob.  But I should be able to tone it down a little, and use my debuffs to increase my dps, as well as those other damage do'ers in the raid.  The latter is best achieved by preventing the initial aggro in the first place.  The concept of shedding aggro once it's gained is near suicidal in a raid setting.  Just change the skill set to allow for prevention, as opposed to resolution.  I think that's all Kyth is asking for, and it seems both fair and logical.  Until then, however, I am a debufer... with a real nasty ATK rating.

[Gyilok]

you got 2 choices to keep agro from you:

1. pally tanking and having amends on you (~40% hate transfer at adept 3), you can go all out, do anything you want, the damage you do is practically taunting for him, he can go afk with auto attack on

2. guard tanking having assuage on you (~28% hate gain decrease) and you use self preservation and hope for lucky procs, also spam evade and shadow slip whenever up, but this is nowhere near as effective as amends

both of these buffs work best on brigands, noone is generating as much agro as we do and we got no transfer skills like other damage scouts to get rid of it

with pally you dont even have to use deagro stuff, shadow slip only for run through

 

in the case of other tanks, if I have distract up, the mob usually pingpongs between me and tank every 2-3 hits, but this is not an option for raids, so keeping 3-5 sec auto attack sessions and using evade and shadow slip can keep agro off you but its not worth bothering in xp groups, and is really reducing our capabilities

the 2 skills are nowhere effective enough, but reducing their timer would only make us waste more power on them, the distract line working as self preservation would be much much better

 

[Nydysean]

Before I get into my reply let me preface it with this.  My main is a 46 troubador and I have not done any raiding,ever.  I am reading these boards as I am considering making a brigand alt if I ever cap my troub.  Anyway, I know my troub has a skill at 46 that lowers hate gain of all non figter glasses by 29% at adept1.  I am sure this skill gets upgraded as you lvl and is more effective.  Have any of you tried having a troubador in your group while raiding, or are they still in MT group, or are they put into casting dps groups (duo to our spell proc line)?

[Gyilok]

that could help but our usual single troub is  part of mt group most of the time, though if we also get a dirge on they might be the better choice now, and ofcourse brigand is not part of mt group and never will be, it all needs some testing, but the 29% decrease alone is not enough, guard assuage does the same and it is just not enough

[kyth]

    Ok so most of the brigand community is "ok" with the fact that we are the only class that needs to get hit to really avoid agro?  I mean on a raid i could just be a melee shaman, debuff and afk autoattack.  We are left with the evade line and the slip line.  IF slip had a quicker refresh that would be ok.  We lost the mercy line to be a fairly crap ca IMO.  Now lets look at some of the other scout classes.  As i said swash's are extremely lucky to have a 20% proc rate of -900hate or so.  That is just insane free evade its nuts.  Assassins get a hate buff that xfers 1/3rd of their hate to whom they put it on.  Again we have to be hit" to use our "special" agro management.     The deciet idea of adding an agro reducer on that is an awsome idea.  that would add more utility to that spell line.  As it stands i can take agro from any tank.  Some are better then others but when raiding hits its gonna be hard.  As it was stated your tanks are going to be at 0-power after the first few mins of any fight.  yes they have stances to give them agro and what not but is that going to be enough?  I really do see brigands as one of the highest agro classes due to our attacks having such massive debuffs, again making us the melee shaman.  I love the debuffs, dont get me wrong, but i would also like to do some melee dmg on raids.  But even the debuffs alone are enough to make any mob turn on us.     I guess it will just take us some time to get back on raiding before people start see'ing this to be the issue it is.  I will say that at lvl 60 with full masters for everyone on the raid when i did beta raids my first 3 debuffs took agro on every mob.  so be ready to use 2 debuffs / slip / 1 debuff / evade / debuff / afk autoattack.  I do see more yelling about this in the next month or so when people start raiding again.  I just wanted to bring it up before it became the issue it will be.

[Gyilok]

I don't think most of the brigand community is fine with it, but as you pointed out, most do not raid yet and are comfortable with taking a hit and losing agro in xp groups

we did darathar last night and I was going very easy on him, used shadow slip after first 3 ca-s but he goes down so fast with current damage output of players (100% of his hp was down in about 30 sec) that there is no issue, however darathar is a gimped old world raid so no surprise he went down so fast to our high level raid

and not only brigands have problems with agro management atm, the lvl 60 mt had his 3 first taunts (adept 3-s) resisted on a green conned darathar and taunt resist rate is terrible everywhere, so if that gets a fix, we might be better off too

but even then I fear brigand agro generation and the lack of abilities to get rid of it will make us auto attack and hit a few debuffs here and there (still very dangerous) and hope for a lukcy proc rate on self preservation

I believe assa, ranger and shwash all have some kind of agro transfer+  shwash have the upgraded self preservation, making us the only class to take a hit for the tank

btw our best choice atm is to have a pally mt, and brig in mt group with amends on (which will unlikely happen), there is no class that will steal agro from pally in single target fights, he can go afk we do the agro for him

another idea is to have a non mt guardian in group, with assuage on brigand, and a bard that decreases all non fighter hate gain, these 2 could result in roughly 60% less hate gain which actually might work

 

[Damari]

---

Gyilok wrote:

Ibtw our best choice atm is to have a pally mt, and brig in mt group with amends on (which will unlikely happen), there is no class that will steal agro from pally in single target fights, he can go afk we do the agro for him

---

In the raids ive run over the last two weeks, I've been fortunate to have 3 paly's with us so I put one in each of the dps groups specifically for ammends  to save my butt.  When going up against spell casters, I have our paly tank with the guardian MA, works fine so far.

But I agree with the OP that were going to have trouble with agro during raids, using more than 3 CA's in a row is an invitation for a dirt nap.

[Gyilok]

heh I was so desperate yesterday night that I wasted a rare on elude adept 3, but I'm optimistic and hope it will pay off

my best tactic sofar was to estimate and time subdue as the hit that will take us agro (not hard to time when used with double up hehe) and use shadow slip after, so we lose agro while the mob didnt even have time to turn on us, but with the stun nerf on epics, it wont be an option in raids either

 

[heke]

---

Gyilok wrote:

you got 2 choices to keep agro from you:

1. pally tanking and having amends on you (~40% hate transfer at adept 3), you can go all out, do anything you want, the damage you do is practically taunting for him, he can go afk with auto attack on

---

I was in a pickup group with a pally and always got aggro, although he had amends on me. Seems 20% of my hate generation is more than he can do on his own. I don't know if he had all taunts up on ad3/master like i got all of my skills, but still, i don't think this should be so easy. Makes me fear for aggro on raids (although i wouldn't go all out in a raid as i did in that pickup group). I did not have aggro problems on raids yet, but i did not raid much yet and our tanks are still much higher than i am. It's also sad that there seems to be a high demand for lvl17 self-preservation masters (got one for like 30g), shows how badly designed the "upgrades" are. Although i have to state, overall i am very happy with the combat changes for the brigand.

Message Edited by heketon on 10-12-2005 03:59 PM

[xarion_silentha]

In my experience, ammends absolutely sucks if you are exping with a paladin tanking.  When I was grinding to 60, I noticed that w/ ammends up, my evades would not work properly (particularly befuddle adversaries line).  If ammends was up, I was tanking, period.  However, in a raid situation i think this may work differently.  With the paladin's lower DPS they are unlikely to grab agro from the MT w/ 35% of your hate.  That 35% should also be enough to keep you from pulling agro from your MT, assuming its not a crusader.

[Gyilok]

well those pallies must have sucked bigtime

and with amends up, forget about using evad or self preservation

the 20% of your hate must have been app1 btw, so dont count on app1 skills doing the job (sad excuse), its 42% at ad3, and when I saw how well the pally was doing with app4 (roughly 30%) the 2nd or 3rd day afetr dof release, I isntantly sent him to get adept 3 made

the trick is to stun the mob at start, and then go all out, the pally will never lose agro unless he has attack turned off and is running from mob

[heke]

The 20% was referring to the remaining hate gain. If 40% of my hate go to the paladin they should cancel out 40% of my own generated hate. So only 100% - 40% - 40% = 20% of the hate i generate should effectively go to me when amends is on. These 20% of my hate seem to have been more than 100% of the hate the paladin generated. BTW: I have no app1, the new t6 stuff is at least ad1 and the t5 skills are mostly master1 and some ad3. So my point was: i know we CAN take aggro. We can also avoid taking aggro (i did not get aggro on a raid yet, also i was close number 2 :smileywink. But i don't think we should generate more than five times as much hate as a tank class, ie paladin, that is actively trying to get/keep aggro. Well, i will try the "stun first" thingie, i am still in the phase of experimenting and seeing how things work now. Normally i try to debuff as early as possible, but putting a stun in earlier should be no problem either.

[Goonch]

I agree with Stiz, that palladin must not know what the heck he/she is doing.  My guild has 2 hardcore grinding pallys both 1st, 2nd on server to 60.  So needless to say they've been around to MT in groups a lot.  And not once, once have I ever had to tank any mob or pulled aggro for more than 1 hit.  I get the ammends unless a swash or wizard is in the group.  I never have to use evasion either.

 

 

[Gyilok]

shwash and wizard should not get amends over brigand, I can keep agro from nuking wizards with tanking from front only, I'm sure I generate atleast double their hate from behind, and shwash is not a better choice either, since they have the upgraded self preservation and a hate transfer (the lucky sob-s) on their own, both making amends much less efficient

if the pally puts amends on me, not even a chain taunting zerker can get agro off him, and the mob is back on pally right after zerker uses his 3 position in hate list taunt

however, all this doesnt get us further, since in raids

-if pally mt, brigand is in another group for sure

-if pally is not mt, noone wants him to pull agro, so he better puts amends on us and goes afk in a corner hehe

we might be safe with a troub in our group and extra hate buffs stacked on mt, but we still have to spam elude and shadow slip to be sure, a lucky double up combo still can get you agro anytime hehe

edit: can take this discussion to the world channel aswell

Message Edited by Gyilok on 10-13-2005 05:59 AM

[Goonch]

I guess I just have had a different experience.  The swash i group with has master1 in every ca except some of his new t6.  i mostly have adept3s with a couple masters.  he out dps everyone in our guild atm except those soon to be nerfed conjurorers.  I know swashes have a better anti hate line and he still gets uber hate.

also for some reason.. though we're out dpsing wizards, the ones i group with are still generating more hate than I at times... since we have the self preserve line and i never get hate anyway why not put it on the wizard ?

Message Edited by Goonch on 10-13-2005 12:49 PM

[xarion_silentha]

Honestly, I've never seen a wizard draw nearly the hate a brigand does.  The way sorcerer classes typically get agro in my experience is when they go too hard too fast w/ AEs in a situation where the tank does not have sufficient ae taunts.  As far as dps is concerned, since our wizard has hit 60, I've noticed he can outdps me if he tries.  However, I've never seen anyone even come close to competing with a good ranger.  On raid mobs, our ranger regularly does 1200+ dps and thats single target.  However, even with the hate increase associated w/ the ranger's stream of arrows CA, he almost never gets agro.  Yet, somehow I draw agro all the time doing half his dps.  This basically proves to me that the issue must be related to the level of hate produced by our debuffs and our inability to reduce our hate quickly enough.

[Gyilok]

rangers got a 48% hate gain lowering buff (honed reflexes) and that pretty much makes the extra 32% hate gain on stream of arrows pretty much disappear, also they have elude and surveil (pretty much our shadow slip I believe) so agro is np for them

if the shwash does not use his hate lessening abilities, he might be more useful for amends then a brigand since they get more extra hate abilities, but why the hell would he not use them? they are permanent buffs which most of them have on anyways, (one on themselves, one on tank)

atm the stifle of stream of arrows of rangers can be cancelled by templar anti stun buff, which allows them to dish out more then intended, not that they need a boost, imo it is an oversight me that with that ca they are "abusing" the way proc rates work on 7 sec delay weapons with shooting every 1,5 secs (poison procing almost 100%, imbued bow+fabled proc wep or prismatic+gear proc+group proc buffs) its basically like with sorcerors, high damage with no effort

Message Edited by Gyilok on 10-14-2005 03:47 AM