Bad day

[AJTalies]

Not really a rant, just wanted to get this off my chest, and was wondering if others had experiences like this.

 

I was playing my 30 Swash...had a group of 4.  tank, healer, me, and wizard.  Doing great I thought.  Tank always had agro of main mob (no matter what I did) he was only one level higher than me.  Anytime there was an add I felt like Johnny on the Spot with my mezz: add would wait patiently twiddling his thumbs till we got around to it, almost always got to it before mezz wore off and when we didnt it only got a couple of swings on the tank before original mob dropped. 

 

No deaths, no one even came close, my exp bar looked like someone poored miracle grow on it.

 

Tank left, his time ran up, so we replaced him with a tnak 4 levels higher than me, and added two more healers then went back to fighting the exact same mobs.  Exp still went well, we were more reckless though, often with multiple adds since we could easily handle it.

 

1 tank, 1 swash 3 healers and a wiz.  I just assumed agro control was partly my responsibility, if we got adds I would try to mezz, or off tank.  For this reason as before I was not using self preservation or swarthy distraction to adjust hate levels, since there would be times when I wanted agro, instead relying on evade and non agro attacks, even mezz to hold the mob while tank got ag from me in the times where I accidently got agro and didn't want it.

 

It happened a couple of times, almost always with adds I could get the add on me, but sometimes the main mob would turn to me.  Wasnt a big deal, we had healing power to spare, though it did seem odd that the higher level tank couldnt keep agro like the earlier lower level tank could.  No one was ever in danger and I toned down my dps.  I also held off on using in abilities at all (only regular melee attack) until a few seconds into the fight when tank had agro well in hand.  Even so I would occasionally get agro, but since it was no big deal and I could easily lose it again I said nothing.  Once I managed to lose agro and the mob beelined for the wizard (got him down to 20% health before I got agro back) but all lived and eventually tank got agro back himself.

 

All things considered, I feel I am doing well under the circumstances.

 

Then the healer says "We should let the Swash die for getting agro."

 

I get angry, but I say nothing.  Not one single word.  Instead I think it's better if I step back and calm down.  Perhaps he is joking.  Next fight I use no abilities at all, mob takes forever to die, and I get no agro at any point.

 

Same guy says "Are you using any hate reducing stuff?  I know I never have any problems on my 50 swash with not stealing agro from tank."

 

I left the group.  Perhaps I overreacted by simply calling out, but I didn't want to get into it.  In tells he then chastises me becuase he is asking which is how people improve.  I don't believe this claim though.  I still think he was being a jerk.

 

Others have this problem?

 

I feel like the class and it's abilities are too often misunderstood.  My impression thus far is that we are meant to be situational.  I've said in this forum many times that I would very much prefer we were more dps oriented, but I feel like as is, we are more utility and as such our style should be dictated by the needs.  I feel like people don't always realize that there are times when we are meant to help with crowd control, or getting agro.  I also can't shake the feeling that maybe the tank wasn't pulling his wieght, since the previous tank never lost agro to me once he was lower level AND I was dishing a full boat dpswise in that group.  Do others find it common that your efforts are misunderstood?  As to why you're on the add and not assisting in group without ench or backup tank, or why you might have agro occasionally when you've been functioning as backup tank (and thus aren't neccesarily using self preservation)?

 

As I approach 50 will this likely get better, or worse, in terms both of my group role and other classes understanding how best to mesh with the utility I have?

[ArivenGemini]

Agro management is a group effort.. those with high agro stuff need to be aware of that and pace themselves into the combat, starting low and working up to full bore as the tank establishes agro... Different tank classes have differing agro control... with my berserk it is like I have a magic "i win" button on agro (assuming no borked mobs)... in that it is almost impossible after about 5 seconds into the fight to get agro off me... even without much taunting... but with my monk I really have to work at it to keep control... I would wager though that the second tank you had was one that really didn't know his role in a full group and was relying strictly on minimal taunting and dps to keep agro.. which just doesn't cut it... When I am duo, yeah I will do lots of damage arts.. but if I am in a full group, I get about 2 taunts/buffs for every combat art I use until I have it rock solid under control... and even then I pour on the taunts and hate inducing... Also though, in some situations I would not want you handling all the adds.. only the ones I could not control... in that with my berserker I could not guarantee that I would not break your mez in short order due to the procs I have based on my skillset...  but the value of someone who can take a hit who can grab that add off the healer or the mage is immense...  so yeah I dont think you did anything wrong based on what you have told us...  

[Erasm]

I think you were a little out of bounds. So was the healer.

Intelligent discourse in a group is important. Simply not saying anything and calling out was silly. Had you responded and then the arguement escalated, instead of helping the group, then you would have been justified. The way I see it, you just couldnt handle a little bit of constructive criticism on the 2nd claim from the healer ( the one with the 50 swashy). Even if you were doing everything perfectly, the healer doesnt know that.  Except for the death comment ( the one that was out of line), the rest sounds like he just wanted to make the group better.

[67thRig]

Hmm, I have encountered ppl like that myself so I can understand where you're coming from

but next time, just ignore the jerk, he doesnt deserve the attention (although it sounds to me that he was craving for it) nor the action you took.

Just have fun and wait for the arena to kick his lame healing [Removed for Content]. 

 

Oh and next time anyone says something like that just tell him that its better that you get the aggro and not him cause I've seen more healers catching aggro than scouts myself, and remind him that if you die the mob is going for him next :smileymad:

oh and I just wait for the lie low skill, works like a charm, although sometimes instead of going back for the tank the mob goes for the healer for trying to heal ya hehe

Message Edited by 67thRiggs on 05-23-2005 03:13 AM

[AJTalies]

Funny side story to this, doesnt have anything at all to do with the thread, but I thought I'd share it anyway since other Swashy's are sure to get a laugh out of it.

 

No one ever mentioned swashbucklers charm to me.  Never seen anyone actually use the spell.  I do read the boards and check other sites often for tips on how to be a better Swash and what I should be doing at what level to be more effective in different situations.  Even then I learn most stuff from experimentation: I get a new skill, I solo some greens and try it out, see what it does and what it will stack with, then see if I can think of any different situations, group or solo, where this skill will come in handy.  Combine that with what I see on the web, it rarely takes me long to find any number of vible uses for any given skill.

No one ever talks about Sweashbucklers charm though.  I knew it was listed on the site I check to see what skill's I will get next, but since I never got it, and have never seen any version on the broker, or drop from a mob (or any other Swash use it or talk about it ever) I assume it's an old skill that got taken out.  The description makes it sound like a mezz and since we got a mezz a few levels later, I let it go.  It could just as easily have been an upgrade to evade though.

I saw the thread in this forum about Charm right after posting this thread and I thought "Well...what if that's the skill I'm missing?  Maybe this charm is the key.  Maybe I was wrong the whole time and I could be 10 times the Swash that I am if I only had this skill.  Why don't I have this skill?"  I decided that I needed this skill and that it could potentially change the entire way I play my class.  If it's a different mezz, or an upgrade to evade, especially if they stack...the possibilities are endless.

So I went looking on the web and after a couple of sites found one that would tell me how to aquire this life saving ability.  I got the skill, then went and tried it out.

 

Those who are familiar with the skill will understand the chuckle I got when I got to see this potentially class changing skill in action.

[Triccer]

Hehe ) Well coming back to the original message... First off please don't take anything personally it's just my experiences I've made and really well meant advice. The best thing to do in a group that tends to miss your value is taking the leader role, Swashies are great for that since they have a very dominating influence on what and how the group is doing. If you tell others that you will mezz adds and they aren't to touch adds, suggest strategies etc you're not likely to get comments like the ones the healer gave. In your case it would have been best not to remain silent and stop attacking, it only labels you as a weirdo or hypersensitive in the groups eyes. If you are offended by a comment you may point at the tank and explain you'd like him to taunt more and that you will reduce your dps a bit. Try not to sound arrogant or hurt, just state it in a friendly manner. If you start a fight slow and tune your dps up bit by bit and you still get aggro and you say so, noone will blame you, but they will blame the tank. As for aggromanagement, it certainly does become easier later on since you get two abilities to increase your hate level by one and one ability to decrease your hatelevel by 2. With those abilities you can shift aggro nicely. At lvl 30 (later on too) your best bet is Swarthy Distraction, and I recommand using it in almost any group unless you can afford the haste line since the tank has rock solid aggro. What it does is making your target get solid aggro on all the mobs that hit it. You might want to take aggro off a healer but never off a tank, so theres no reason to ever let SD drop on any tank, not even when you want to get aggro from healers. You will be able to do that just as well when you have SD up on the tank. You will never ever want to drag any mob off a tank no matter how many there are. If the tanks hps drop fast, your hps will drop even faster. The tank has higher mitigation, so if he takes 100dps from mobs when he tanks them alone, you and the tank together will take 125dps when you play off tank and snatch mobs from him. So if the healer(s) cant keep up healing the tank they wont be able to heal the damage inflicted to you and the tank together. The only case you may want to have aggro is when the tank is low and about to die and you have full hps. In that case you might want to get aggro for 3 seconds until a heal lands on the tank and switch it back after. But you won't be able to do that so don't worry about it. Once a tank got SD, you can throw pretty much anything at his target without gaining aggro as long as the tank does basic taunting. (The only case in which it fails is when the tank doesn't get hit cause of level difference to the mob, in this case the fight should be trivial anyway.) My thoughts on the topic...

[Zolg]

The guy was being a jerk (He probably also complains when is DPS isn't equal to everyone elses). I was in a group recently where the tank couldn't keep agro and I kepted getting the mobs wailing on me. We also had healing power; so I wasn't really upset or anything. But finally the healer asked him why he was having problems keeping agro and he said he only used his shout skill 1 time per fight and it was at the beginning of the fight. So, we yelled at him a bit and he said he would start using it more.  So, it could possible be that the tank was not using his shout skills enough.

Message Edited by Zolg on 05-23-2005 04:28 PM

[AJTalies]

I am inclined to believe he was not using his skills.  Considering he was higher level than me.  Today I grouped with a guild member, same class, lower level.  I never had any problems at all (that was with only 3 in group, healer, tank, and me, me being the highest level).

As for the opinions that I should've stayed, I suppose I can repect that, and will take it to heart.  It can be hard for me though, when someone is insulting you, it's often hard to get insulting back.

[Turb]

Your mistake was staying silent after the 'die' jibe.If you think the tank isn't taunting enough, say so... as politely as possible Silence will only worsen the teamwork. You gotta talk!

[FamilyManFir]

I largely agree with TurbOT, start by trying to talk it out as politely as possible. If/when the healer shows s/he's incorrigible, Call out.I don't play a Swashie yet but I do play a Berserker. When I'm offtanking it's easy for me to pull aggro by mistake. I always, in character, comment: "Oops! Gotta time that buff better!" or "Oops! I didn't *mean* to pull aggro!" Of course it's less of an issue for me since I'm a tank anyway but I still feel it's good form.Another way to help clear up confusion, although it's tough in combat with text chat, is to make clear, one way or another, what you're doing. Mezz the add and add a chat, "Ha! Thought you'd jump my friend, did you!" If you're really concerned about maintaining DPS then macro it.I confess that it bugs me a little when someone opts out without giving a reason. I suspect that in your case I would have understood the reason (and had a few words for the healer in /tell) but I feel it's best to give talking it out at least a try first.

[AJTalies]

Thats actually a way of looking at it that I hadn't thought of.  I was thinking it can be confusuing for others not used to swash being only other melee besides MA, I didn't take into account how much I'm not used to thinking of myself as only other melee or crowd control besides MA.  Macros and such would be a good idea.  Next time I hope I will handle this better.