Mystic slow vs. Defiler slow - I'm surprised

[Mystiq]

Well now that today's patch has laid out all of our spell effects in detail for all to see, I was most surprised by one thing.

Here are the effects of our best single target slows:

 

Howling Haze - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 20% (adept 3).

Decreases Subjugation and Disruption (skills) of the target by 35.

Decreases crushing, slashing, piercing and ranged (skills) of the target by 26.

 

Mourning Soul - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 35% (adept 1)

Roots the caster.

 

And here are the effects of the Defiler's best single target slow (as told to me...grammar might be off but numbers are correct):

 

Atrophy - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 10% (adept 3).

Decreases the strength and stamina of the target by 68.

 

It was my understanding that Defilers had more of a debuffing prowess than Mystics did. I also figured that their slow would also be more effective than ours, at the very least equal in strength. I guess I was wrong. Defiler's slow element is half as effective as ours is. Sure the decrease to str/sta is pretty sizeable, but I think we all agree that the most important part of a slow spell is.....well, the slow. In fact, I stopped slowing and debuffing epic mobs completely, and let my guild's Defilers do it, as that is what they felt they were best and most efficient at. As it stands now, I think I'll be taking over the slowing responsibility for raids again.

 

The fact that we get two single target slows, and Defilers get just one, seems odd doesn't it? I don't know if the slows elements of ours stack, which would be a 55% reduction in attack speed in addition to a decrease in the mobs damage potential with specials. Even still, we have two different spells at our disposal, in the event one is resisted or what have you. The fact that Defilers also do not get a group slow, but rather a proc buff cast on the group with a chance to slow the encounter, seems odd to me as well. Why is this?

 

Anyways, I wanted to know how you guys felt about this kind of thing. I guess we're not the only shamen in need of some balancing and tweaking. The Defiler community is probably already aware of their own class disparities, I just wasn't sure if you guys were aware of the power of your slows, and the superior lineup of slows and debuffs (meaning quantity and variety, not necessaryily effectiveness) we have versus the Defiler.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Ender]

We're pushing for a change ASAP.

[Aaldaaf]

The question that came to my mind today is if you stack both slows do you get the best of each?  Being rooted in most encounters isn't bad since you are going to be standing in the same spot for half hour.  Things like that statue thing in Frreeott where you spend half the fight running instead of healing are an exception of course.

 

I'd have to double check but I think the slow on mine is lower since it's not adpet3 so quality does affect the percentage slowed.

[Deo Non Fortu]

It's true.  My Howling Haze is at Adept I, and its stats are:

 

• Decrease Attack Speed of target by 15%
• Decrease Disruption and Subjugation of target by 33
• Decrease Crushing, Slashing, Piercing and Ranged of target by 26

 

So I guess upgrades do matter.

[Putka]

No we do not only have Atrophy, we have another single target slow (Fuliginous Sphere line) which also only slows by 10%.

 

Sigh.

[Banditman]

Actually, spell quality matters once it EXCEEDS Adept 1 level.  All spell quality up to and including Adept 1 has the same value for Slow - 15%.

 

I'm also not ready to accept the "description" values without some parsing.  The description for Grim Lethargy for instance shows a Slow of 11% at Adept 1.  I am 100% sure this is wrong.  I've tested App 4 recently and it was a 27% Slow.

[Lani]

yeah, its being talked about on defiler boards.  you wont hear us screaming "nerf Mystics" but I was under the understanding we would be slightly better at the slows and you would be clightly better at the healing.  Or at a bare minimum we were identical classes good and evil. 

 

One strange thing I think too is that 49.6 spell of yours seems to group slow also.  It slows the main target and his allies (for less?).  We dont get group debuffs that I have seen (48 defiler here). 

 

Class balance needs to be looked at.  Just make us even, buff up defiler to mystic level slows and while you at that make sure the other spells are comparable.

 

Zaps

[Kalam]

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Banditman wrote:

Actually, spell quality matters once it EXCEEDS Adept 1 level.  All spell quality up to and including Adept 1 has the same value for Slow - 15%.

 

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Actually this is not correct.  I still had Howling Haze at App I last night and it listed the slow % at 10%.  Then I bought an Adept I scroll and scribed it.  The slow % then showed 15%.  Of course I don't know what spell level it changes for 10% to 15%, but I'd bet it does at App 3 or 4.  I guess I should've bought an App 2 scroll before I upgraded just to check.

 

 

[Kalam]

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Deo Non Fortuna wrote:

It's true.  My Howling Haze is at Adept I, and its stats are:

 

• Decrease Attack Speed of target by 15%
• Decrease Disruption and Subjugation of target by 33
• Decrease Crushing, Slashing, Piercing and Ranged of target by 26

 

So I guess upgrades do matter.

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Deo what level are you?  I'm curious because my Adept I Howling Haze only debuffs Disruption and Subjugation by 28 at lvl 39.  Since your's shows higher, I'm betting you're higher level than I am, and this would indicate that the offensive debuff portion of the Haze line also gets better as one levels up.

 

[disru]

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EnderMX wrote:We're pushing for a change ASAP.

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Good luck, we've been pushing for a change since early-mid Dec.

[Wolfherz]

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Eloora wrote:

Well now that today's patch has laid out all of our spell effects in detail for all to see, I was most surprised by one thing.

Here are the effects of our best single target slows:

 

Howling Haze - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 20% (adept 3).

Decreases Subjugation and Disruption (skills) of the target by 35.

Decreases crushing, slashing, piercing and ranged (skills) of the target by 26.

 

Mourning Soul - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 35% (adept 1)

Roots the caster.

 

And here are the effects of the Defiler's best single target slow (as told to me...grammar might be off but numbers are correct):

 

Atrophy - Decreases the attack speed of the target by 10% (adept 3).

Decreases the strength and stamina of the target by 68.

 

It was my understanding that Defilers had more of a debuffing prowess than Mystics did. I also figured that their slow would also be more effective than ours, at the very least equal in strength. I guess I was wrong. Defiler's slow element is half as effective as ours is. Sure the decrease to str/sta is pretty sizeable, but I think we all agree that the most important part of a slow spell is.....well, the slow. In fact, I stopped slowing and debuffing epic mobs completely, and let my guild's Defilers do it, as that is what they felt they were best and most efficient at. As it stands now, I think I'll be taking over the slowing responsibility for raids again.

 

The fact that we get two single target slows, and Defilers get just one, seems odd doesn't it? I don't know if the slows elements of ours stack, which would be a 55% reduction in attack speed in addition to a decrease in the mobs damage potential with specials. Even still, we have two different spells at our disposal, in the event one is resisted or what have you. The fact that Defilers also do not get a group slow, but rather a proc buff cast on the group with a chance to slow the encounter, seems odd to me as well. Why is this?

 

Anyways, I wanted to know how you guys felt about this kind of thing. I guess we're not the only shamen in need of some balancing and tweaking. The Defiler community is probably already aware of their own class disparities, I just wasn't sure if you guys were aware of the power of your slows, and the superior lineup of slows and debuffs (meaning quantity and variety, not necessaryily effectiveness) we have versus the Defiler.

 

Regards,

---

I would not underestimate the power of Strength reduction. Assuming that NPCs on the same level have comparable Strength to PCs, that would reduce Strength by 1/3 ... and subsequentially reduce melee damage by 1/3. That would be on top of the effect of slow. So that the net effect of the debuffs would be similar. On top of that you get the benefit that Defilers and Mystics are very complementing on raids or group situations. I cannot really imagine that Slow portions or the spells stack, otherwise 1 shaman + 1 defiler could slow a NPC to near 0.

Message Edited by Wolfherz on 02-18-2005 10:01 AM

[Kalam]

To follow up on what Wolfherz said, how much do you wanna bet that the cumulative effects of Defiler and Mystic slow spells stack.  So if both classes were to cast their slow spells on a target, the cumulative effect assuming Adept 3 would be ...

 

20% Slow

Decreases Subjugation and Disruption (skills) of the target by 35.

Decreases crushing, slashing, piercing and ranged (skills) of the target by 26.

Decreases the strength and stamina of the target by 68.

 

That sounds pretty debilitating to me.

 

 

[EgilRon]

As a Defiler, we have a line of Str-Wis-Int debuffs, as well as the slow line.  We don't need another Str debuff on a spell, we already have it.  Also, the STA debuff appears to be bugged.

[Harvyst]

Not to throw flames on the fire, but I have Keening and Howling haze both at Adept 3, and I get 20% slow on both. Howling is still orange to me so it's a spell level thing, not my level thing.I have Mourning soul at Adept 3, and I ONLY get 35%. Eloora gets 35% with her Adept 1 of Mourning soul. So upgrading Mourning soul to adept 3 appears to be a waste.Interesting things to know!I plan on upgrading my Dreadful Lethargy now when I hit 47, based on this information. Before I was debating whether to bother upgrading it as I had not seen a real difference between Adept 1 vs Adept 3.

[ChristopherK]

I chose Mystic originaly over Defiler (the choice of most shaman during beta and release was defiler) because it was the more defensive shaman class. Knowing this, as is how it was advertised, I can see why our slows ... slow more. Always thought Defilers were given more DPS and group DPS add to balance this.

 

Either way, it seems balanced.. kill it faster (more dps) or kill it slower (less dps and slower mob). To me, it's working as intended.

 

/edited because I sounded like an [FAAR-NERFED!]

Message Edited by ChristopherKee on 02-18-2005 05:08 PM

[EgilRon]

But how are Defilers getting improved DPS?  We have the same +str buffs.  We have similar dots.  I just don't get it.

[Geohi]

We dont get more DPS. I think 99% of everyone agrees that you should get better heals and we should get better debuffs. End of story. EDIT: Kind of made it unclear, but i am indeed a Defiler. (Level 45)-Geo

Message Edited by Geohin1 on 02-18-2005 03:03 PM

[disru]

The following is a complete spell comparison of mystics vs defilers including a very brief description of the spell's function:|Level | Mystic Spell | Defiler Spell |20 Ursine Elder - Bearform, self buff | Baleful Countenance - Wraithform, self buff21 Delusion - Debuff (-str, -sta) | Revulsion - Debuff (-str, -wis, -int)22 Path of the Grey - Combat Rez | Degeneration - Debuff (-atk speed, -str, -sta)23 Water Spirit - Water Breathing + minor AC | Contamination - DoT/Debuff (poision DoT, -sta)24 Cold Fire - DoT (Cold DoT) | Fuliginous Sphere - DoT/Debuff (disease DoT, -atk speed)24 Keening Haze - Debuff (-atk speed, -physical skills) | Reanimate - Combat Rez25 Spiritist's Salve - Group Heal | Abominus - Water Breathing26 Cry of the Ancients - Encounter Debuff (-sta, -noxious, -elemental) | Curse of Shielding - Reverse dmg shield26 Ancestral Ward - Ward | Spectral Guard - Ward + dmg on break27 Quelling Spirits - Hate dump + minor heal self | Devigorating Chant - Hate Dump + power drain28 Arcane Lavation - Cure Arcane + minor heal | Tainted Orison - Cure Arcane + Power over time28 Miasma - DoT (disease DoT) | Profane Accretion - Heal28 Wards of Shadow - Group Ward | Vile Imprecation - DD (disease DD, -arcane, -noxious)29 Prophetic Guard - Group Buff (+power, +sv poison) | Distill Soul - Debuff (grants soul essense upon death)29 Spiritual Replenishment - Heal + cure noxious | Putrified Balm - Heal + disease DoT proc30 Umbral Fortitude - Group Buff (+hp, +sv devine, +sv noxious) | Dire Effluence - Group Buff (+hps)30 Omen - Single Target Buff (+hps, +power, +hp regen) | Foreboding - Single Target Buff (+hps, +power, +AC)31 Runic Shield - Group Buff (+str, +AC) | Seeping Eschar - Group Ward + disease DD on break32 Anger of the Ancients - Encounter disease AE | Aphotic Touch - DoT (disease Dot, -sv noxious)32 Spiritual Healing - Heal | Dire Shroud - Group Buff (+str, +AC)32 Spirit of the Rhino - Group Buff (+str, +sta) | Sacrificial Aid - Heal at cost of defiler hps 33 Touch of the Grey - Cold DD | Vehemence - Group Buff (+str, +sta) 34 Ursine Oracle - Bearform, self buff | Sinister Countenance - Wraithform, self buff35 Grim Lethargy - Debuff (encounter AE -atk speed) | Tendrils of Fear - Group Buff (dmg shield type, -atk speed, -agi)35 Fallacy - Debuff (-str, -sta) | Loathing - Debuff (-str, -wis, -int)36 Fields of the Grey - Group Rez (bugged) | Senescence - Group Rez (bugged)37 Aqueous Spirit - Water Breathing + small AC | Suppuration - DoT/Debuff (poison DoT, -sta)38 Howling Haze - Debuff (-atk speed, -physical skills) | Atrophy - Debuff (-atk speed, -str, -sta)38 Icy Flames - Cold DoT | Fuliginous Coil - DoT/Debuff (disease DoT, -atk speed)39 Mourning Soul - Debuff (-atk speed, roots mystic) | Primordial Terror - Crowd Control (fear + root on fade)39 Pox - Disease DoT | Watery Horror - Water Breathing + diease DoT dmg shiled40 Eidolic Savior - Buff (death intervention + ward + heal) | Malefic Shroud - Ward + disease dd on break40 Howl of the Ancients - Debuff (encounter AE -sta, -elemental, -noxious) | Bane of Shielding - Debuff(reverse dmg shield)41 Ancestral Aegis - Ward | Eerie Avenger - Buff (death intervention + spawns pet to attack)41 Rejuvenating Chant - Heal + cure noxious | Devitalizing Chant - Hate dump + power drain42 Fading Spirit - Ward + hate dump per each attack on ward | Mail of Souls - Hate dump + disease DD to attacker + heal42 Transcendent Blessing - Group Heal | Venal Accretion - Group heal42 Umbral Ritual - Group Ward | Carrion Shield - Ward + disease dd on break43 Accordant Spirits - Hate dump + heal | Fetid Balm - heal + disease dmg proc43 Prophetic Shield - Group Buff (+power, +sv noxious) | Crystalize Soul - Debuff (enemy produces soul essence when killed)44 Eidolic Mettle - Group Buff (+hps, +sv divine, +sv noxious) | Ruinous Imprecation - disease DD, -arcane, -noxious44 Prophecy - Buff (+hps, +power, +regen) | Harbinger - Buff (+hps, +power, +AC)45 Shadowy Attendant - spawns pet that casts beneficial spells on group | Dread Invective - Buff (dmg shield)45 Ire of the Grey - cold DD + snare | Baleful Efflux - Group Buff (+hps)46 Enlightened Healing - Heal | Sacrificial Alleviation - Heal, -hps from defiler46 Spirit of the Elephant - Group Buff (+str, +sta, ward vs elm/nox) | Voracity - Group Buff (+str, +sta)46 Fury of the Ancients - AE (encounter disease AE) | Aphotic Corruption - AE DoT (encounter disease DoT, -sv noxious)47 Avatar - Buff (+str, +agi, +sta, +atk speed) | Loathsome Seal - Debuff (-str, -sta, -agi, -AC)47 Runic Talisman - Group Buff (+AC, +str, +ward vs nox) | Ghastly Shroud - Group Buff (+AC, +str)48 Wards of the Eidolon - Group Ward + Bearform | Purulence - Group Ward + spawns pets to attack on ward break48 Ursine Prophet - Self Buff (bearform, +hps, +power, +ac, +proc) | Malefic Countenance - same as mystic w/ wraithform49 Chimerik - Debuff (-str, -sta) | Abhorrence - Debuff (-str, -int, -wis)49 Dreadful Lethargy - Group Debuff (-atk speed) | Tendrils of Terror - Group Buff(dmg shield that decreases atk speed+agi)50 Oberon - Regenerating Ward + puts mystic in statis | Maelstrom of Dismay - Disease DoT + hps regen + power regen50 Recall of the Grey - Combat Rez + power regen | Vivication - Combat RezEdit: List finished, left out the fluff spells. "sv" stands for "save versus" for those that don't know.

Message Edited by disrupt on 02-22-2005 02:18 PM

[Putka]

I demand that our debuffs are put in line with mystic ones! :smileyvery-happy: Bloody hell! I don't even use our heals, I use the lv20 training of Healing Ritual for god's sake.. cause ours are so lame. On top of that Qeynos is pretty and FP is a ruined drab ghetto! I want to be a qeynosian -.- And you mystics outperform us in all areas! /rant /rant /whine /moan!!!

 

~

[Ender]

No, Mystic slows are not "slightly" higher. They are AT LEAST 10% higher. Simply by listing all of our spells (which we Defilers already know) doesn't say anything about Defilers being "balanced". Furthermore, you have no idea what the REAL effect of Defiler spells are (most of which are broken) and thus could not draw a logical conclusion based on such a list.

[Xalibur]

sorry endermx, i cant say im laughing but i find it funny finally your trolling gets an appropriate reward

[Ender]

Sorry xalibur but I find it funny you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Renn]

I have yet to see an actual Defile Speak up and say their Adept1 or Adept3 has only 10% slow.

[BALTO]

defilers DPS when i was in a group with one, was in no comparison to mine, all spells of mine are adept 1, no clue on his. i don't really feel much sympathy pains, as i have a 27th defiler, have pleny of debuffs, slow's may not be up to par (percentage diffrence isnt as much as ya say) but my dps an utility spells with the defiler seem more useful than the mystics.still no matter what, shaman linage is by far one of the most neglected of class'an for mystics, even less htought an work into them than defilers.come on...form of a shaved beaver? heh... form of a garden hose...sigh, form of a larg a@@ bear...with a big gapen @ in the middle of his thighs....form of a flightless dove....so once moredo some of your own tracker on the dps defiler vs mystic an see if it sums up to my find'ns

[Putka]

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Rennyn wrote:
I have yet to see an actual Defile Speak up and say their Adept1 or Adept3 has only 10% slow.

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http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=2269

 

master1, 10%

adept3, 10%

Message Edited by Putka on 02-19-2005 06:16 PM

[disru]

spell list comparision finished in an above post.

[Itachi53]

Defiler's slow element is half as effective as ours is. Sure the decrease to str/sta is pretty sizeable, but I think we all agree that the most important part of a slow spell is.....well, the slow.

I disagree. Personally, I think lowering all of their combat skills by 5 levels is far more effective at lowering overall DPS (including styles?) than slowing down only thier regular attacks by 20%. Although, I'm more than happy to take both. In regards to our Defiler cousins disadvantage, I believe that coming forward in a unified movement towards fixing wards for BOTH shaman classes serves us both much more than to bicker over slow percentages.

Message Edited by Itachi53 on 02-28-2005 11:01 PM