Another bug with Enhance: Fanaticism

[Avirodar]

+++Enhance: Fanaticism (Rank 1)Removes the self-Stifle component of Zealotry and its higher level upgrades. As an alternative penalty while it is active, the Inquisitor's spell section of their knowledge book all require twice as much power and heal for much less.Passive SpellEffects: Removes stifle+++The effect specifies that Inquistor's spell section of their knowledge book require twice as much power and heal for much less. It is dirty enough that while the Enhanced Fanaticism is in place, the mana restoration of chilling inquest is halved. Chilling Inquest is a proc'd power drain, not a heal, so I do not agree with fanaticism affecting it...What is even more dirty, is that all power proc and power boosting items and accessories are penalised by half.Thats right. Necro hearts, Conjurer shards, Manastone, Princes hammer, MO breastplate, DT Stein, Halo of the Scaleborn, Honor of Pantrila, Signet of Replenishment, Power Root, all those and more, recieve an unjust penalty, halving their effectiveness. Not only that, despite all the "clicky" (activatable) items not being components of our spell knowledge book, they also recieve a penalty to activation time, and very unjustly at that.Also, on another note, I have noticed the undeclared cast time penalty to Enhance: Fanaticism fails to show regard to other cast time modifiers, including AA lines such as Facile Grace (improves cast speed by 14.4%) and Divine Recovery (improves cast speed by 50%).I know that SoE have briefly looked into the issue of our AAs, but please, the tip of the iceberg has been poked at. Inquisitors need some fixing up, please...- Avirodar- 70 Inquisitor, Nektulos Server.

Message Edited by Trinral on 12-06-2006 11:34 PM

[deanoh]

Good lord.  Finally got this tonight, and learned how screwed up it is.  Good idea, bad implementation.  How hard is it to bloody do something right the first fracking time??  Course, Im still amazed I play the game.  Some of the stuff SoE has done,  if I tried that in my line of work I would be out of a job in a day.  This is a perfect example.  Completely [Removed for Content]'d and utterly useless in a raid environment. 

Message Edited by deanoh on 12-07-2006 12:35 AM

[Chanah]

ok this sux indeed...

I think the idea of this is ok as we should use the spell when the mob is "stabled" so all we basicly do is debuff and buff our group with more dps, but if we have to be oop as the first in the raid its totally rubbish, now what am i gonna do with my aa, go for battle cleric or something?

the only usefull aa is our act of convict upgrade besides our debuffs, while maladroit doesnt even lower stats (yes I have tested it again) I dont know where to go in my aa line, I guess i play my monk instead. or are monks aa's even more crappier....

 

Message Edited by Ghyro on 12-07-2006 03:42 AM

[Grizb]

Hi there.

Ive been looking forwards to using this AA, and can accept the longer casts, increased power costs etc (albeit that I agree that the descriptions should have been more clear).

To begin with i thought the ability was working ok and it would just be me needing to change the way i play slightly, but i also began to notice the problems as have been posted in the previous posts.

My question now is...  (not wanting to repeat anything that has previously been pointed out as not working properly)

"Has anyone else noticed that the AA also halves the healing effectivness of reactive-heals cast prior to casting the new fanatacism AA? " 

I noticed the other night (and re-tested) that when pre-healing with my group reactive that the heals would begin to go off for the normal 400-500ish, although when i toggle the new version of fanatacism on, these pre-heals then  drop by the 50% effectiveness. There is no extra power cost here obviously as the spell has already been cast.  This was really hurting in Castle MM where you really need dps & hps effectiveness.

I can understand that there should be a penalty for casting 'whilst' fanatacism is up, but should it really decrease the effectiveness of spells that have already been cast?.

It makes the ability (to me) now seem very much less worthwhile -  why would you spend 5 points to decrease your overall heal effectiveness like this just to use CA's?  (the Ca's i like very much btw , as they suit my playstyle). 

Would it not be better to just use the CA's prior to casting fanatacism ( using it as it was in its original state) ,melee,  and then toggle off again to debuff/ patch heal/ group reactive / CA again as the CA's are very fast. This way everything stays fully effective, and i would imagine that you would be able to maintain higher average hps/dps? 

I am hoping that this will just be another part of the fanatacism bug, and that it is not intended, and will evenctually get fixed.

Has anyone else noticed this ? - any thoughts appreciated..

*now i think about it,  tonight i will test out whether this also applies to our DOT debuff spell lines once they have been cast and start to tick.   I havent tested these as yet as i have adopted their CA replacements and now use them mainly.

Grimble Dolore - Elysian Dawn -  Lucan D'lere Server

( 70th Inquisitor / 70th Armourer)

 

Lucan D'lere

[ericshaitan]

Yea fanaticism AA is the sux.  I am going with the +5 spell range because this is the only thing I can see as being usefull on raids.  Then i will probebly just max out all the Triage crap and then go the battle priest line as it can be fun.

[Demoniac]

sorry Avirodar I just went back home. I was afk. ok yeah.. this is totally [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed up the new fanaticism.I did realized it could be this bad. but far as I know. I can't cast any reactive, group reactive. every single healing over time spells will be cut to half.this is totally worthless. i can't really say this is a good idea. I can't pre-heal. it cazs I used it, then cast fanaticism. all the pre-heals that I cast before fanaticism will be cut to half. which makes Ican't solo. I can't do raiding heals. we /bug /report /feedback this one since beta, the devs they just never listen. I know it's huge bug. it makes I can't even use this spell.Well, honestly the more I play lu29, the more I feel more disappointed. it's way worse than what I think. we almost lost everything. I've talked to Ryklis. my question is what's the point to bring an inquisitor into a raid??if I am not wrong he said.1. we got act, we got fanaticism, we got aura. these are great spells.this is my explaination. did you actually parse act? if you fight orange cons, you will see that act can improve the dps about 30-35 for each group members. for fanaticism, I would say in kos, increase attack speed it actually increase proc chance. now, all the proc chance are like 1.8 times per minute. so basically to increase attack speed, it just increase auto melee attack speed that's all.:smileysad: they ain't really that useful.2. Pyklis said we are the best scout group healer.I couldn't agree with this. I would have to say a warden is the best scout group healer. why? i talked to Ryklis and Ssinurn, I feel I can't really say this in public chat. some people will throw flames, caz we are supposed to be the best dps boost.  this statement is wrong. now.  I actually parse the difference between Primitive Instinct v.s Act of conviction. Act is very easy to tell it will boost the dps about 30-35 in all. Instinct is bugged I think. it increases crushing slashing, it supposed to be only effect on the auto attack. no it is no. it is not just melee attacks, it effects all the CAs. all the CAs will greatly improved you can tell the difference very well. I mean can you tell me what's difference between 350 crushing and 415 crushing to you? how's your combat act? this is it. to a scout, it makes huge difference . by huge i mean It does over 100 dps than act to every single group friend at least. which means you have to put 3 act buff up to be able to catch a warden and they all have to stack. I am not trying to put you down. this is just the begining. I am sure you all fighting in mistmorre innersanctum already. what you do with the damage shield? can anyone heal that damage shield thing? for a fact, both group reactive and reactive does not working on damage shield. so all our scout just can't do the full dps caz we don't heal enough. this does not effect to a warden, I've seen a warden heals 2300 hps in a raid parser. that means he can heal 2300/5 = 460 each seconds for each group member. so they can just ingore the damage damage. any agree or disagree?back to the question. what's point to bring an inquisitor to the raid? anyone has an idea?

[ericshaitan]

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Demoniac wrote:back to the question. what's point to bring an inquisitor to the raid? anyone has an idea?

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Need I say more?!?!?!?Unholy Symbol

[Avirodar]

Grizbul wrote: "Has anyone else noticed that the AA also halves the healing effectivness of reactive-heals cast prior to casting the new fanatacism AA? " 

You make a very valid point, and you are definitely correct.

Before I purchased the 5 point Enhance: Fanaticism, I used to frequently cast my group and direct reactives, then cast fanaticism. I would then watch the remaining reactive triggers, before toggling fanaticism off to recast reactives (or debuffs/spot heals). This is no longer an option I have, for as Grizbul has stated, the penalty is inflicted upon existing reactives already in effect. Halved healing on reactives makes them useless. No if's or but's there.

Your comments also add to my thoughts about the penalty applied to mana drains from Chilling Inquest, a buff that I assume most inquisitors would cast before an encounter, and not when Fanaticism is in effect (And IMO, is not really a heal). Casting Fanaticism should not penalise pre-existing buffs / heals (reactives)...

This AA needs a big reality check / revamp.

If any ability becomes severely penalised, it will be regarded as a penalty, not a utility. I would much rather see Enhance: Fanaticism be a cool/useful bonus that Inquisitors can get with the EoF expansion...  I wish it was. It is not.

Maybe change the Enhance: Fanaticism penalties to be 1) a cast time penalty for spells contained within the spell section of the knowledge book by 50% (not 100%)?   2) Double the power cost of spells contained within the spell section of the knowledge book (this hurts, but fair enough, there needs to be a downside).

Halving of Inquisitor heals should be removed. Inquisitors are the weakest of all healers in terms of raw healing capacity. Halving the weakest is a tragedy, not a balancing act. Not to mention, it is an easy fix to the current problem, that a lot of things are being halved, which should not be. Such a fix would make a lot of Inquisitors happy.

Keep in mind, paying close to 700 mana for a group reactive (344*2) would -hurt-. It would be even worse if convert is up, it would add another 360 power to the cast of the reactive (30 * 6 * 2). Paying approx 1050 power for one cast of a group reactive is pretty much absurd, and non-maintainable for any serious or long fight. The exact same figures apply for group heals, something a lot of EoF raid content can require frequently.

Basically, the numbers prove that even without our heals being halved, very obvious and notable penalties would still apply, making the AA ability a matter of picking the time and place.

- Avirodar, 70 Inquisitor, Nektulos Server

[Ssinu]

Don't forget Unholy Aura and heh heh Fire Fire. Seriously though, Jina post your parses - I was actually curious to how well some of the other priest's DPS/offensive buffs worked in comparison to Act of Conviction and Consecrated Aura.I had started compiling parses of raids with no offensive buffs from me on the same mobs vs with to see the difference.Oh and good work on researching this - I hadn't planned on playing with it again for a long time. I hope it gets fixed - it does seem sort of blanketly applied.

Message Edited by Ssinurn on 12-07-2006 10:08 AM

[Demoniac]

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Ssinurn wrote:

Don't forget Unholy Aura and heh heh Fire Fire. Seriously though, Jina post your parses - I was actually curious to how well some of the other priest's DPS/offensive buffs worked in comparison to Act of Conviction and Consecrated Aura.I had started compiling parses of raids with no offensive buffs from me on the same mobs vs with to see the difference.Oh and good work on researching this - I hadn't planned on playing with it again for a long time. I hope it gets fixed - it does seem sort of blanketly applied.

Message Edited by Ssinurn on 12-07-2006 10:08 AM

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you can do it yourself, Miss. it's very easy to tell just take a look at the scout non-melee damage. they are all CA damage. and take look at the CA hit chance it will tell you the difference.I did it this way. not sure if i am right. i parsed a zone raid. used ACT, find someone ( I pick an assassin here ) see how many times Act fired during the whole fight. take a notes find some value, automelee attack hit chance, totaly melee attack damage, all CA hit chance, all CA damage,Act fired number and total act damage number. find another assassin in a warden group,compare the same number and value. i bet you will see huge difference. I don't really wanna list any parsers it becauses it's so huge that i can't even believe myself that this is right. 350-415 slashing what's the difference? how many act you will need to be able to cover the damage? 400-465 slashing what's the difference? how many act I will need to be able cover the damage? I just can't believe this. I dunno but it happens

[Ssinu]

Our  Warden is always in MT group - so this is why I'm curious.

[quasigenx]

Why not change the ability to still stiffle everything but the new battle line CAs, and remove the casting time and heal penalties?Is that just way too simple?

[ericshaitan]

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quasigenx wrote:Why not change the ability to still stiffle everything but the new battle line CAs, and remove the casting time and heal penalties?Is that just way too simple?

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That is what i think they should have done for this.  Allow you to use your CAs and not allow anything else, and have no penatilies for it.  It would actually make it worth while.

[Deneir_Allaston]

I agree they should change Enhance: Fanaticism to simply not stifle you while fighting with the new Battle Cleric combat arts and give you a reuse/recast bonus on Fanaticism so you can toggle it on and off faster if needed for casting spells. That would make it alot more useful, and seems like a simple fix.

 

I had to use a respec after messing around with it in its old form, its completely buggy. It halves precast reactives regauardless of if you turn it on AFTER you have had reactives applied, which kinda makes it... very very worthless. What made me laugh out loud tho, is the fact that the alternate penalty also INCREASES the power cost over time on Fanaticism. Explain how is that an enhancement heh? So you get slower casting timers, higher power costs, and much smaller heals and even higher power consumption on Fanaticism itself with this AA!

 

Imho, just stay away from this AA until/if it gets changed if you havent got it already. The extra points are much better spent in the Detriments or Punishment lines.

 

-Araekus Vallse, 70th Inquisitor of Venekor

[Avirodar]

To go a little off topic for one moment...

Comparatively speaking, you would have to compare the warden crush/pierce/slash buff to our Consecrated Aura (single target buffs), and not Act of Conviction.  The crush/slash/pierce buff that wardens get is a single target buff, not group wide, thus the comparative grounds.

The warden buff increases the chances that a melee attack or combat art will land successfuly. Against orange con mobs or some defensively orientated mobs, the warden buff makes a big difference. It does not make an individual attack hit harder (that I am aware of), simply means the player with the buff hits more than they miss.

Our Consecrated Aura makes melee / combat art attacks do more damage, when they land successfuly.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I would love to hear some feedback from one of the SoE staff, on the matter of Enhance: Fanaticism being significantly overpenalised...

Avirodar, 70 Inquisitor, Nektulos Server

[Israphil]

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Trinral wrote:

To go a little off topic for one moment...

Comparatively speaking, you would have to compare the warden crush/pierce/slash buff to our Consecrated Aura (single target buffs), and not Act of Conviction.  The crush/slash/pierce buff that wardens get is a single target buff, not group wide, thus the comparative grounds.

The warden buff increases the chances that a melee attack or combat art will land successfuly. Against orange con mobs or some defensively orientated mobs, the warden buff makes a big difference. It does not make an individual attack hit harder (that I am aware of), simply means the player with the buff hits more than they miss.

Our Consecrated Aura makes melee / combat art attacks do more damage, when they land successfuly.

Anyway, back on topic, I would love to hear some feedback from one of the SoE staff, on the matter of Enhance: Fanaticism being significantly overpenalised...

Avirodar, 70 Inquisitor, Nektulos Server

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Ａｃｔｕａｌｌｙ， ｉｆ Ｉ＇ｍ ｎｏｔ ｍｉｓｔａｋｅｎ ｔｈｅ ｗａｒｄｅｎ ｂｕｆｆ ｉｓ ｔｈｅ ｒｏｕｇｈ ｅｑｕｉｖａｌｅｎｔ ｏｆ ＂ａｇｉｔａｔｅ＂ or whatever the fury buff is that gives a chance for the player to go berserk. It's more like our Chilling Inquest in that it doesn't take a concentration slot, but can only be maintained on one ally.

Message Edited by rckmer on 12-10-2006 10:54 AM

[LaeliaJS]

Another thing I noticed with Enhance: Fanaticism... the spell actually penalizes ITSELF - The power cost per tick goes up by about 50%. Granted, the power increase cost is nominal (12 points), but .... it's still penalizing itself. Which is kind of silly. Frankly, I'd like to see the upgrade's current penalties *only* apply to our three instant and two non-emergency reactive heals, or be lessened by a lot. After all, this is a very expensive upgrade to get. It requires spending 12 points to even get to it and then 5 more to buy it. Right now it's far more of a penalty than a buff. No wonder I've been running out of power so much lately.

[Spider]

obviously it is a bug and needs to be submitted but dang bugs happen all the time dont everyone get here panties in a bunch

[juz]

I think it should only penalize the direct heals and the reactives.

That way, it would be worth it for an inquisitor that doesn't want to melee and keep his master damage spells functioning.

[Ssinu]

On test the text now says:Removes self-Stifle component...the Inquisitor's spell section of their knowledge book all require twice as much power, additional casting time and heal for much less.

[Israphil]

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Ssinurn wrote:On test the text now says:Removes self-Stifle component...the Inquisitor's spell section of their knowledge book all require twice as much power, additional casting time and heal for much less.

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At least they've got it being honest now...but I doubt they realize the side effect to our power drain/proc items. This needs to be made 100% clear, because it's bogus.EDIT: I proposed this question in the IRC chat just now...it was skipped, but I received a personal message from Gallenite that the bug concerning our power drain etc has been forwarded to QA.

Message Edited by rckmer on 12-12-2006 05:20 PM

[Ssinu]

Did he say the bug with this Achievement and power drains or just the power drain (Chilling Inquest) fixed on test for GU30?

[Israphil]

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Ssinurn wrote:Did he say the bug with this Achievement and power drains or just the power drain (Chilling Inquest) fixed on test for GU30?

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The bug on this achievement and power drains, reactive heals, and inquest alike. I was very specific.

[graxnip]

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Ssinurn wrote:On test the text now says:Removes self-Stifle component...the Inquisitor's spell section of their knowledge book all require twice as much power, additional casting time and heal for much less.

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imo the only bug with this spell was that it effected spells cast prior to toggling fanaticism, has this been fixed? it is fine if it effects spells cast while fanaticism is up, however this effects the whole way many use this spell :: drop fanaticism- reactive tank - toggle it back on if from what I have been reading if we get this enhanced version - that reactive that we cast while fanaticism was off - will now heal for alot less, as well as apparently it effects other inqusitors in the group that do not have the ability.if this is working as intended and they do not consider the above to be a bug, then it is totally useless and ruins the whole ability. It is just better to keep the non enhanced version and carry on as we always have been.

Message Edited by graxnip on 12-13-2006 10:29 AM