Raiding in the melee group - Strategy / Tricks?

[Tarta]

I want to get some feedback from other raiding inquisitors about their strategy and/or tips about keeping the melee DPS group alive. I am finding that while we buff the melee classes wonderfully, I'm feeling sluggish to respond to their spike damage from AoE. I'm seeing a couple of issues to deal with here:1. They seem to take the most damage in the raid, sometimes in aggregate out-classing the damage taken by the MT.2. Line of sight issues are sometimes a real problem with some group members on one side of a pillar and others on the other side. (I've especially noticed this versus the corsolander in Labs)3. For all this damage, we really only have our direct heals to rely on to heal them up. Our reactives seem quite useless to me, here. I'd kill for some group HoTs or even another variant of a group heal to fire up while I'm waiting for my direct heals to recycle.I'm not asking for it to be easy, but we really only have 3 heals that we can use effectively.. In this way, I feel we are kinda gimped compared to other healers for this particular (and popular for inquisitors) role.Your thoughts? Suggestions?note: I'd like to keep this thread away from discussing the MT group healing - I find that to be quite easily handled with the various tools we have for that job, especially reactives.Thanks,Tarta - 70 inqui - Guk

[Israphil]

I would like to start by saying that while yes, we are a bit behind other (read: druid) classes in terms of ae healing, we possess the tools necessary to compensate. When I am going into an AE fight, I take conscious effort to keep group reactive up at all times. This takes the edge off of the aes that hit. If you are part of a serious raid, you should have the intel to know what AEs you're coming up against, and your melee classes should be equipped to accordingly deal with said AEs. Thus, your group should not be taking insanely high amounts of damage, and your group reactive will play a big part in keeping the ae damage manageable.Additionally, most AEs are on a 30-45 second timer, and if you have one or more brigands in the raid you can lengthen this time considerably. Regardless, however, 30-45 seconds is a long time to get your group back to 100% before the next ae hits. I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that because they don't get the group back to full as quickly as druids do, we therefore do it worse. As long as your group is back to full before it is being pounded by another AE, you are doing your job. We are given incredible debuffs, high dps capability, and godlike power regen. The trade-off is that we are not as well equipped to use solely healing spells alone to deal with many situations. When an ae goes off, after group reactive heals back a bit of it, I immediately group cure (if the spell is a damage + dot, and/or provides a debuff that needs curing), then I immediately fire off our group heal. While the group heal is coming back up, I make sure that the rest of the groups are coping sufficiently with recovering from the ae, and fire off my small quick heal at anyone in my group or another who seems to have taken an inordinate amount of damage. I then recast the group heal once it is refreshed after 6 seconds, if the group still needs healing. At this point I've spent at most 15 seconds of a 30-45 second time, and the group is back to full. Recast group reactive again, and you're good to go for the next ae hit. This is not the most power efficient group-healing method, especially when comparing us with druids, but I honestly have never really had an issue keeping my group alive unless the raid was wiping, or an individual in the group was doing something wrong.Also, specifically against the Corsolander, I would suggest picking up a high damage, high delay weapon, and just going in along with your melees and fighting. This serves several purposes:1. You can contribute a bit of extra dps to the raid. You may laugh, but properly equipped and AAed, an inquisitor can provide a formidable amount of dps through autoattack alone, and two of our biggest debuffs are dot based, so we really can put out decent numbers.2. The line of sight issue is mitigated, since you are right there with them.3. You'll probably be using group heals to keep your melees alive, and since you'll be swinging a lot less frequently than them, your own group heals should be more than sufficient to keep yourself out of any real danger.4. A high delay weapon will also let you fit in direct heals while its delay is cycling, to keep your faster-weapon wielding melees out of any danger.Hope this helps, and good luck!

Message Edited by rckmer on 09-27-2006 02:13 PM

[Illaren]

i'm regularly the only healer in the dps group ([expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] scouts love the 30% dps boost from consecrated aura ;p).  i haven't had any problems keeping them alive on our raids.

 

first i make sure i have up the group mit buff (M1 732 mit helps alot on the crushing AE's)

then my other 4 con spots go to the 4 scouts with the lowest hp in my group - generally assassin/brigand/swashy/ranger (900+ hp and 30% dps makes them drool every time i show up to raid :p)

 

after that i make sure i have convert up, i know it drains alot of power when casting a group heal but the benifits out weigh the costs for me.  with a group reactive up to absorb some of the initial brunt from an ae (example Slaughter from the x4 drakes in labs - pretty common ae goes off all the time) i imideatly follow up with group heal (with convert up heals most of them back to full) and re-apply the group reactive (agian procs the heal from convert on all of them) if everyone still low on hp by this time u can cast group heal agian and be golden.  if your mana battery is doing his/her job and you have decent FT + manastone/heart/shard u can keep convert up all the time and never worry.

 

as far as postioning goes, i allways run in with my melee breathren and beat on the mobs while healing (not spec'd for melee dps either) this does 2 things for me, keeps me close to the people i'm supposed to be healing and makes me look cool (which in all honesty is all that really matters right?!)

 

i've found that our resist buff, while adding a nice 280 or so hp to everyone really isn't as helpfull as the 900+ hp i can give to one person (or 4 :p) unless of course its a named fight that requires +mental or magic resists, then i steal a con point by dropping the buff off the ranger, poor guy never knows why his dps keeps changing :p and throw up fantaics faith for the resists.  anyway, hope this helps, its pretty standard i hear to just have 1 inq in the melee dps group (now if only i could bring myself to respec my AA's....)

[Israphil]

Kiara :smileytongue:, if you :smileytongue: keep using emoticons :smileytongue: like that, I will be forced :smileytongue: to donkey punch you. :smileysurprised: :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink: :smileytongue: :smileywink: :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by rckmer on 09-27-2006 02:36 PM

[Illaren]

whats up isra! still rolling round unrest inq'ing it up? haven't seen u around recently bud (and stop messin with my emotes, i likes them!)

[Gobbwin]

Totally agree w/ the above posters.  I like to rush in w/ the melee and pound away right beside them.  If we're jousting the AE, I just follow them back out.  It mitigates the problem of not being able to see them (unless it was a knockback AE and they're in another room now) and it adds your DPS to the raid.  As previously mentioned, if you have a diecent weapon and the right AAs, you can add quite a bit of DPS.  I use one of the prismatics while raiding, while it doesn't have much DPS, it has sexy mana regen and allows me to Skull Crack the mob, which is a significant help.

If an AE hits, I'll:

1) Cure if I can/if it is necessary.

2) Cast the group heal, unless only one or two were hit by it.

3) Single target heal.

4) Group heal again.

5) Drop more single target heals (usually I dont' have to do this after the second group heal, but...).

6) Debuff the mob again.

7) Get Fanaticism running again.

 

Personally, I don't like to use the group reactive during a fight because group heals alone can drain your power quite quickly.  Also, unless the mob has two AEs that it uses in tandem, it is likely to only be good for one AE, depending on the mob.

Edit: I forgot to mention, Group Heals/Cures ignore the line of site issue, they are treated like AEs. 

Message Edited by Gobbwin on 09-28-2006 04:03 AM

[Riex]

I don't think reproachful alleviation has much of a line of sight issue.  The dps just have to be in range.  It sucks to use this heal when only 1 person is hurt, but most times power isn't a issue so i'll use it anyways.  I agree with the OP when he says our reactives are useless in the dps group.  The reactives are really only useful for the MT.  Druids have the advantage with their group reactive, their group reactive heals 4 or 5 times more than ours.  It definitely would be nice to have an HoT.

 

The best thing to do when hit by an AoE is to use reproachful alleviation until everyone is healed.  It isn't the quickest way, but it is the easiest and most efficient way.  Single target direct heals may be required.

[yibiumien]

Lol, I will admit I don't typically melee I mainly debuff, buff, and heal.  My normal raid opperations are situational.  Depends alot on the mob.  On Cor I also have had the LOS problem,  but typically the dps know to get within heal range and los if they don't want to die.  I use convert so that I heal and cure at the same time, for most mobs that's plenty to take the edge of the AE.  I don't have mana problems, since I'm in a DPS group and have a constant supply of mana.  There is only one person that can out heal me in raids. 

[Jordinn]

On healing melee groups:

What others have posted is about what I do.   Know the fight as best you can, time AEs and get group reactive up before it goes off.  Once it hits, cure if needed, group heal, spot heal, group heal.  Wait if needed, then group reactive for next cycle.

Group Heals:

LoS doesn't impact group heals, you can heal through walls and door with group heals if the targets are in range.  I've used this to heal people who got stuck behind doors in Poet's Palace many times.

Positioning is a team event, so your tank must pull to a good spot, the melee must know where to fight to be in range and still do their CAs, and healers must move to reposition if needed during the fight when things change.  Bottom line is plan  a spot where you have LoS get the pull to that spot, and ensure the melee knows where to fight from before the fight ever starts.  Then if they get out of range it's their issue to correct.   If the mob moves or agro shifts it is your job to adjust and keep healing too

[Grrrrrrrrltwo]

yeah I have recently switched from full time necro to full time inquisiter in our raid force. I get to be in the " scout " group which im totally digging.. I keep up the mit/sta group buff then do 4 single target for the scouts in group if i have 5 scouts tho sadly I tend to not place it on the bard since they rarely make parse in the first place (     ) but yeah depending on the mob I tend to not " max range" the mobs like the softer healers do but I will move in  in order to make sure my group has the heals they need.. thankfully most are aa spec-ed for ae avoidances so i only really need to single target heal here and there I'm blessed with some kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] scouts in my guild I might add. But that also means with all the agro reduction in the world they might draw agro hehe so our nice big instant heals are rather nice for such occasions ( regen doesnt replenish 2k hp in an instant /flex )

[Zarkad]

Another advantage of going in to melee, you will have line of sight to your MT if it's needed, normally if there is a 2nd inqui on the raid and a defiler the MT inqui can do his group react and single react without help but you'll be ready if your help is needed quick.

I keep the group react up while i fanaticism just for insurance, if a DoT lands, i toggle off, start casting my group cure and fizzle fizzle fizzle ( this will change with expansion ) it will heal the group a bit before the cure lands and i can group heal back to full health. If it goes wrong you have divine recovery to fill your group even faster.

As melee dps group inq, we keep the debuffs up and spot heal dirges/healer/necros/MT/2nd tank as priority if needed. You have mit and resists to survive most AEs, the avoidance is crap but it's not needed at all on a raid, have fun don't be scared to rush in if it's allowed you'll have fun.

[juz]

Drakes don't AOE, it's a frontal attack, tell your scouts not to be in front. They should be backstabing anyway

Also, Corsolander has a sweet spot where you don't get hit with the damage shield, tell your scouts to go behind and to the side of him.

[bellstar]

Don't forget the items that help increase your heal output:

 

Mystical orb of the Healer

 

Righteous Scepter of the Godking

 

Arm of Erollisi

 

There are some others out there but I only have the first two atm.  I didn't have the Mystical Orb for a while, but once I finished that collection and wore it on raids, I really saw the difference.   It procs a lot.

[bellstar]

*double post*

Message Edited by bellstar on 10-05-2006 01:32 PM

[Catseyes]

how do u get scepter and arm ? :p Ymrir 69 inqui befallen

[Israphil]

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Catseyes wrote:how do u get scepter and arm ? :p Ymrir 69 inqui befallen

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pris 2.0 and claymore quest.

[jago quicksilver]

only real strategy i see is throwing up a group reactive before the start of a fight, making sure all the best melee classes have a DPS mod. NEVER run act of conviction, since it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing sucks. Put up fanaticism right  the after hitting convict (dont usually hit debase or forced obedience because any non named is weak sauce) toggle it off to hit Reproachful alleviation when the AE hits, then turn it back on immediately after

[Israphil]

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jago quicksilver wrote:only real strategy i see is throwing up a group reactive before the start of a fight, making sure all the best melee classes have a DPS mod. NEVER run act of conviction, since it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing sucks. Put up fanaticism right  the after hitting convict (dont usually hit debase or forced obedience because any non named is weak sauce) toggle it off to hit Reproachful alleviation when the AE hits, then turn it back on immediately after

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Act of Conviction definately does NOT suck, especially if you're in a group with a conj. Act can proc off any attack, be it spell or melee, so conj/necro double up on it. Also, 5% chance for your entire group to proc that much damage is FAR from useless. I almost never have this spell down, unless it's a fight where everyone needs hp/mit due to aes.

[jago quicksilver]

ok, say you have 4 melee classes in the group... do you rn 4 DPS buffs, or 3 and that song? i can GUARANTEE you that the 30% DPS buff will do more damage than the entire group proccing that, because ive parsed it.on average, a monk with 100% haste procced this over the course of a DT raid for roughly 9k... that is weak...now, this same said monk did roughly 25times that with his base autoattack, which DPS affects... so ill say that everyone in the group procs this for 10k, being optimmistic, and even saying that the healer(s) in the group proc it that much.so thats 60 thousand damage over the course of a RAID.now lets say that the monk autoattacks for about 250k over the course of the whole raid....3 (the 30% DPS buff) multiplied by that figure equals roughly 75k, doing more damage than said proc.our assassin says that this proc doesnt even come close to doing 1/10% of his total damage, where as autoattack is VASTLY greater than that, so making it hit 30% harder will own the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of that proc.

[menelaus109]

Last time i checked my parses Act added around35 DPS to a Zerker15 DPS to a Troub30 DPS to a Assasain40 DPs to a Bruiser10 DPS to a CoercerThis was zonewide on a run through HoS a while agoI used to find myself in a group with 4 scouts/offensive tank a mage and me so i used 4 Aura and Act for max DPS

There might have been some slacking on trash and so its not that accurate but i keep it on whenever possible, if another scout or tank was in the group instead of the mage id drop it for another Aura though

Message Edited by menelaus109 on 10-11-2006 03:22 PM

Message Edited by menelaus109 on 10-11-2006 03:25 PM

[Israphil]

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jago quicksilver wrote:ok, say you have 4 melee classes in the group... do you rn 4 DPS buffs, or 3 and that song? i can GUARANTEE you that the 30% DPS buff will do more damage than the entire group proccing that, because ive parsed it.on average, a monk with 100% haste procced this over the course of a DT raid for roughly 9k... that is weak...now, this same said monk did roughly 25times that with his base autoattack, which DPS affects... so ill say that everyone in the group procs this for 10k, being optimmistic, and even saying that the healer(s) in the group proc it that much.so thats 60 thousand damage over the course of a RAID.now lets say that the monk autoattacks for about 250k over the course of the whole raid....3 (the 30% DPS buff) multiplied by that figure equals roughly 75k, doing more damage than said proc.our assassin says that this proc doesnt even come close to doing 1/10% of his total damage, where as autoattack is VASTLY greater than that, so making it hit 30% harder will own the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of that proc.

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I like how you completely arbritrarily generate numbers. That's pretty clutch. I also like how you cherry-picked the one class with the highest attack rate game-wide, not that it matters. If I had a monk in group, he would never go without dps buff.I usually run 4 dps buffs and Act, unless it's an ae heavy fight, in which case I will usually drop the dirge's or sk's (depending on group makeup i almost always have one or the other) dps buff in exchange for pious. Much of their damage is from spells anyway. The point of Act is not that it'll do more damage for aclass than the dps buff will; it's that everyone benefits from it, everyone procs it, and it thus can contribute a very significant number to dps. I've found that Act raises my group's dps by about 150, and that therefore is 150 more dps that my group is contributing to the raid, instead of eating a dps loss in exchange for .3% higher mit and some sta that is almost always capped anyway.

Message Edited by rckmer on 10-13-2006 10:39 AM

[jago quicksilver]

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rckmer wrote:

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jago quicksilver wrote:ok, say you have 4 melee classes in the group... do you rn 4 DPS buffs, or 3 and that song? i can GUARANTEE you that the 30% DPS buff will do more damage than the entire group proccing that, because ive parsed it.on average, a monk with 100% haste procced this over the course of a DT raid for roughly 9k... that is weak...now, this same said monk did roughly 25times that with his base autoattack, which DPS affects... so ill say that everyone in the group procs this for 10k, being optimmistic, and even saying that the healer(s) in the group proc it that much.so thats 60 thousand damage over the course of a RAID.now lets say that the monk autoattacks for about 250k over the course of the whole raid....3 (the 30% DPS buff) multiplied by that figure equals roughly 75k, doing more damage than said proc.our assassin says that this proc doesnt even come close to doing 1/10% of his total damage, where as autoattack is VASTLY greater than that, so making it hit 30% harder will own the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of that proc.

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I like how you completely arbritrarily generate numbers. That's pretty clutch. I also like how you cherry-picked the one class with the highest attack rate game-wide, not that it matters. If I had a monk in group, he would never go without dps buff.I usually run 4 dps buffs and Act, unless it's an ae heavy fight, in which case I will usually drop the dirge's or sk's (depending on group makeup i almost always have one or the other) dps buff in exchange for pious. Much of their damage is from spells anyway. The point of Act is not that it'll do more damage for aclass than the dps buff will; it's that everyone benefits from it, everyone procs it, and it thus can contribute a very significant number to dps. I've found that Act raises my group's dps by about 150, and that therefore is 150 more dps that my group is contributing to the raid, instead of eating a dps loss in exchange for .3% higher mit and some sta that is almost always capped anyway.

Message Edited by rckmer on 10-13-2006 10:39 AM

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well, first off, i didnt randomly generate any numbers, these are averages i pulled out of parses, but gg on that. secondly i picked a class that would most efficently proc this, so that people could se the optimum amount this could proc. gg tho with your jumping to conclusions.

[jago quicksilver]

how about just looking at all the damage breakdowns, and then tell me that 30% more damage on the autoattack of a melee class is less overall damage than the entire group proccing this very underpowered spell. 5% is weak, and i will stand by my claims, and i wont run this buff until it gets a little love.

[Israphil]

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jago quicksilver wrote:how about just looking at all the damage breakdowns, and then tell me that 30% more damage on the autoattack of a melee class is less overall damage than the entire group proccing this very underpowered spell. 5% is weak, and i will stand by my claims, and i wont run this buff until it gets a little love.

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You should reread my post before you make blind assertions. I drop no dps buff on a primary melee for this spell to be up; I simply don't maintain a worthless mit buff at the cost of sacrificing this one.

[jago quicksilver]

well, i agree on that, i was merely trying to state that if there had to be a choice between a DPS buff and Act, then i would pick Aura, because it would do more damage overall.either way, i think that Act is underpowered with a 5% proc chance, even pallies have better procs than that...

[orthanc]

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jago quicksilver wrote:either way, i think that Act is underpowered with a 5% proc chance, even pallies have better procs than that...

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they have to be good for something..right? :smileytongue:

[Catseyes]

i want a LoH or a complete heal at least , and i want a 100 % rezz w/o sickness like them too ... well wait it's cleric stuff usually no ?Ymrir, 70 inqui befallen

[LokiHellsson]

Act vs. Mit Buff vs. DPS Buff, how to use that single concentration slot...if we have a good parse runner, we can answer the question.  It's down to the numbers.  Melenus (sp), how much DPS did Act add to you?  How much DPS does Consecrated add to the 4th (or 5th, if we drop the mit buff) DPS'er?  Which number is greater?  It's simple math if the parses are available.

How much less damage did the mob do to your group when the Mit buff is up?  Again, it's a knowable number, no need to for speculation. 

In software development, where there's a lot of heat in a discussion, there's usually very little light...and vice versa.

I've got to get a parser and get it up and running so I can figure this stuff out.  What do you guys recommend?  I had a guardian friend who ran a parser, we were duo-ing in Silent City (both in our mid-50's at the time) and we were fighting the mid-50's ^^^ solo spectres.  When we checked the parses, we found the spectres were doing roughly the same damage each encounter (+/- 5%) and taking roughly the same damage from us (again +/-5%).  When I would keep my str/int debuff and forced acquiesence (sp) debuff up, the mob damage output fell to 50% of the undebuffed damage level. 

This was totally repeatable with the same two characters with the same equipment at the same level against the same mobs.  Change any of those factors and it might not be repeatable (your mileage may vary...YMMV).  Does this mean I'll always get 50% damage decrease with my debuffs?  No.  In a full group situation, where we take the mob down more quickly, the decrease could be a lot smaller.  Does it mean I'll keep the buff up whenever possible?  Yep.  It works.  The amount it works varies from situation to situation...but generally, it works.

[scivias]

Just don't build you're dps groups as separated melee/casting groups, and you'll be fine with Act of Conviction and Consecrated Aura, 2 melees, 1 inq/fury, 2 cast-dds (not nekro) and a bard, there, done.The rest depends entirely on the situation, no magic/mental/divine AE? There goes Fanatics Fatih .. no physical AE or any chance my group will end up tanking? Goodbyee Pious. Is the group lacking haste? Dump Act of Conviction for good.Act of conviction is rather a mascot than a real beneficial spell doesn't hurt to have it running most of the times.

[Drevva]

Just a quick comment from an earlier post.The drakes in the labs DO have an aoe.  Our scout group is always positioned behind (able to use all back attacks) and we still get hit.  I have found it is very short range, if I'm in auto attack range I can be hit, if I'm not I don't get hit.  At one point I thought there might be  a sweet spot still in auto attack range but not hit by aoe but this could have just been a avoidance I didn't see and the mob tends to move a bit so I could find myself out of auto attack range so stopped worrying about it and just took it .  You can position yourself to get CAs off though (no auto attack) and not get hit by the AOE.Drevva