My take on Inquisitors after a day's combat

Atilla_The_Pun · 09-16-2005, 02:16 AM

So I logged on Wednesday morning, and played all day until about 8PM. I was in beta, so I had a bit of time there, but not near as much "group time" as yesterday. I think the changes are overall positive - combat should be a challenge, but it just plain wasn't before. I could keep a tank alive just by casting a reactive over and over. So after the updates, I notice that we've lost the sheer amount of debuffs we used to have, but our capability to solo is way up, due to increased DPS. I like being able to cast a reverse DS on a mob and watch its health tick down by chucks. Great. However, I have a couple beefs - And these are mostly nitpicking. Level 34 Inquisitor, fighting in Runnyeye with a 33 tank - down to the muddite pits and a bit further. (Where all the boars are, but not the area with the EEs.) Quick Heals - We don't have then anymore...most of our heals are slow but large heals. That's okay, but if a mage overnukes, if we don't catch it *right* as it happens, then the mage stands a very good chance of dying, simply because our quickest heal usually takes too long to cast. A small, quick heal would be useful for saving the frail ones. Reactives - So they're down in potency. That's fine. But, I view reactives as the most unique method of healing among all the classes. Certainly, they made clerics distinctive. Now that's no longer the case, and they're really a tertiary heal, used as a buffer until you can kick off your main arch healing. Don't really have a big effect on things. That's a shame, I think reactives were our strong point before, and made clerics unique - Druids got HoTs, Shamans got wards, we got reactives. Big heals - Okay, so now I'm more like an EQ1 cleric. That's okay, I guess. But in Runnyeye, I found myself just spamming the two big heals we got, and maybe being able to throw in some damage here and there. Reactives were great because they allowed you to protect someone for enough time for you to debuff and toss in some damage before having to get back to healing. Now, I feel like I'm constantly scurrying, trying to get two seconds here and there to drop in a debuff before our tank goes into yellow. I think making reactives a bit more useful would help in this regard. As I said, I like the fact we cause more damage now...Inqs now have a very distinct focus from that of Templars. But I can't cast that damage or debuff much if I'm constantly throwing off slow heals just to keep up. Other than that, I'm fine with the changes as they stand.

Krien the Wick · 09-16-2005, 03:42 AM

Hmm, minister wounds, and the splitpaw heal, are the same cast time as before for us, so we didn't lose our quick heals.

Atilla_The_Pun · 09-16-2005, 04:07 AM

I still found minister wounds to be slow, but maybe that's just my perception. Don't have the splitpaw heal, so that's a moot point to me. SMILEY

Maybe I should invest time in getting some groups going down there.

Erronn · 09-16-2005, 04:19 AM

Just note that the splitpaw heal has a 6 sec recast timer, whereas our normal line of 'fast' heals [2 sec cast] only have a 4 sec recast timer...

Erronn

49 Inquisitor

Atilla_The_Pun · 09-16-2005, 04:24 AM

What's the cast time on it, though?

Erronn · 09-16-2005, 04:28 AM

It is indeed a 2 sec cast time, like our other 'fast' heals, and shares a recast timer with them...

Krien the Wick · 09-16-2005, 06:02 AM

The splitpaw heals the minimum that minister wounds heals for, adept1 at least, but has a small chance to give power back. But yes, I didn't notice the longer recast on it! Thanks for pointing that out.

Our fast heals have always been 2 sec, and the big heals have always been 3 sec, so nothing changed there, just the amounts and power.

Ravaan · 09-16-2005, 12:12 PM

So wait im not supposed to be using my reactive heals anymore? or sparingly? i used to be able to basically chain cast them and do fairly well.

Vicenzo · 09-16-2005, 12:53 PM

I managed to give my Inquisitor (29) a good 6 hour test drive in RoV last night, teaming against golems.

Reactives are still our key heal, but need to be supplemented with debuffs and the occasional combat heal. Reactives on their own just dont cut it any more, but throw in the Iniquity (-28 Str & Int at Master 2) debuff and the Crushing/Piercing/Slashing debuff and incoming damage becomes much more manageable. Enough for your reactives to cope with, and you can toss on a Minister Wounds if needed.

Just spamming Favor of Repentant (or its higher/lower equivalent) doesn't work any more as our tank found out to his cost last night. Sorry mate. As soon as the debuffs kicked in though, things became much easier.

The changes get my vote. Like the other roles in a group, we actually have to do something more to heal. Instead of seeing 200 damage and healing 200, we now have to turn that damage into 150, then heal it.

And our DoTs look good too. Stacking Oppression, Cleansing Flames, and Retribution with the generic melee combat strip away health in steady amounts rather than one big Smited chunk.

Joos · 09-16-2005, 06:11 PM

I had a great time in PoF last night, the mobs kept removing the debuffs, so basically it went like this:

Reactive, debuff, heal ... crap de-buffs removed, re-debuff ... crap mob dispells debuffs, without debuffs mob is much stronger, heal heal heal ... re-debuff, talk about using a lot of power :smileysurprised:

So now mobs can not only resist they can also dispell debuffs, I guess thats ok because we can do it also.

Shailen · 09-16-2005, 06:53 PM

Two things. To the OP: There's nothing wrong with a tank being in the Yellow. I've been learning that as long as your tank is above 60% and you're cycling heals, you'll generally be pretty good. Its nice to have him green, but with heal rates and damage rates, he's not going to stay there all the time. I think this is a GOOD thing though. If a tank is staying green for entire fights thats just stupid, it means either you're not taking hard enough mobs, or there is no challenge or risk in any fight.

Second:

Joosul wrote:

I had a great time in PoF last night, the mobs kept removing the debuffs, so basically it went like this:

Reactive, debuff, heal ... crap de-buffs removed, re-debuff ... crap mob dispells debuffs, without debuffs mob is much stronger, heal heal heal ... re-debuff, talk about using a lot of power :smileysurprised:

So now mobs can not only resist they can also dispell debuffs, I guess thats ok because we can do it also.

I haven't seen much of this debuffing in Pillars. Most of the mobs I've been killing have been cyclops and giants (57+ generally). I see the occassional debuff that surprises me and ends early, but my Coerced Repentance, Vigilance and repentance are staying up for their entire duration about 90%-95% of the time.

And to someone elses post, yes I think reactives are still our main heals, but I see them as a buffer. Our skill as clerics is to slow the overall HP loss of the mob with reactives and then use our instants to do the real "healing" and get the tanks overall HP back up. With a reactive I will basically have the tank at a constant health (not losing, but also not gaining) when it takes hits. Then while waiting on my reactives to be ready for recast, I cast 1 or 2 instants and bam, tanks HP are back up again. If the reactive has now ticked off, rinse, repeat. I find that I generally have plenty of time though for debuffs. Especially early in the fight if you're getting your reactives up first.

I was worried this wouldn't be a viable strategy because of aggro now, but I'm finding it works fine as long as the tank knows how to pull. Put reactives on prior to the pull and the tank should be pulling with taunts and taunting all the time, and this overrides any instant aggro from reactives.

Robbpilot · 09-16-2005, 07:51 PM

Reactives are weaker and generate a lot more hate. I really used them a lot, and they are indeed not going to be the mainstay now.

I've been having a huge problem with implied targeting not working correctly, especially with smites and debuffs. With the shift away from reactive heals to direct heals... It's not really feasible to be shifting targets during a fight to debuff or smite.

I'm still getting all jammed up with the shared timer changes too, and the changes to what will and won't stack.

It's going to take a while.

It is also more painful to try to cast when you do have aggro now... more interrupts it seems.

On the flip side, I seem to be finishing solo fights with a lot more mana left in the tank now.

harlock_j · 09-17-2005, 06:04 PM

So wait im not supposed to be using my reactive heals anymore? or sparingly? i used to be able to basically chain cast them and do fairly well.

that's the biggest change we have. Reactives are good for soloing (they give you time to debuff what you are fighting at the start of a fight and to get those dmg procs on what you are fighting) and have their used in grouping but are no longer the end all of what you do while healing. They are a band-aid/supplement to your 'real' heals

Kyo · 09-17-2005, 06:18 PM

Hmm, i'm still finding reactives VERY useful in group combat. I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance. Then it's the small heal, large heal, single reactive, group reactive and repeat. If things get hectic I throw out our group heal which has a much shorter cast time. But i've seen that single + group reactives still bump the MT from red/orange health to green, and this is vs lvl 61 ^^^

I have stinging penance master 1 and contrite grace at master 2 though, so i'm sure that has something to do with it. Next /respec i'm more than likely changing that master 2 though, perhaps to our small heal.

harlock_j · 09-18-2005, 04:59 AM

I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance.

that was my old tactic but i thought with the change in agro from reactives it would cause me to get agro before the tank could get a hold of it. I might have to try that and see if it still works.

Kyo · 09-18-2005, 06:33 PM

There have only been a few instances where i've pulled a few mobs from an encounter onto myself and usually it's not that big of an issue. Inprision and fearful conversion both work great now. I love these two spells now, especially while duo'ing with a ranged class.

Robbpilot · 09-18-2005, 08:01 PM

Most heals are not as strong as before
Single target reactives no longer stack and share a timer
Reactive heals pre-applied can easily pull aggro off the main tank now
Fizzles seem about the same, but interrupts are more common if the priest is being attacked
Mana costs have generally been lowered
Cast times on big heals don't seem to have been reduced

Point #6 is where I see the problem right now. There are times that I can begin casting the big heal (the only heal that will save someone in major trouble) and it won't be able to land until they are already dead if they are not a tank. If they are a tank, they may still be dead if I get interrupted.

I think all things considered, you have to view the changes as a nerf to healing, which I'm not complaining about... but I think some more balancing needs to be done here. That's because I don't think the intent here is to have people dying before heals can even land in a number of scenarios.

So, I'm respectfully (but urgently) requesting a closer look at this and perhaps some tuning to make things more reasonable. There should be at least a decent chance of saving a non-tank who gets aggro in a group fighting white or yellow con opponents... shouldn't there be?

Krien the Wick · 09-19-2005, 06:19 AM

Robb, are you debuffing? I can honestly say that I haven't had trouble keeping anyone at all up, in a group, against high yellow ^^^s. The only time I have a problem is if the mob is orange to the person, or red.

Shailen · 09-19-2005, 06:57 PM

harlock_jds wrote:

I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance.

that was my old tactic but i thought with the change in agro from reactives it would cause me to get agro before the tank could get a hold of it. I might have to try that and see if it still works.

Make sure your tank is taunting like a fiend. They should be pulling with taunts, then taunting, after that taunt they throw in a quick taunt, and follow it up with a nice taunt. The only times I'm finding I get aggro by putting reactives up before the fight is on a pull of a large group, like 5+ mobs. Don't forget that aggro only builds on you when the reactive fires. Smaller numbers of mobs won't fire all those ticks right away, and a tank has time to build aggro. If you are putting the reactives up early, or your debuffs have a good chance of pulling aggro. In my experience, the only sure way for me to pull aggro, is to have 2 reactives up on the tank before the fight, and right as he pulls, cast submission/aquiesance/etc. I will get at least 1 out of a group of mobs, sometimes all of them.

Robbpilot · 09-19-2005, 10:58 PM

Krien the Wicked wrote:

Robb, are you debuffing? I can honestly say that I haven't had trouble keeping anyone at all up, in a group, against high yellow ^^^s. The only time I have a problem is if the mob is orange to the person, or red.

Yes, I'm debuffing. If a mage gets aggro, or picks up an add... they can die before my big heal lands. I'm level 36 now... if level might have some impact. My big single target heal is master II, and all of my heals are at least adept I.

I'd also point out that most adds are not debuffed, but again, I really think the point is that damage against non-tanks is so rapid that it can kill before a big heal can land. I guess I may be alone in that view though.

Shailen · 09-19-2005, 11:59 PM

I agree this can be a problem, but I also find that its pretty rare. Usually either a combination quick heal-big heal or something like quick heal-reactive heal-big heal will save them, or sometimes drop my instant.

Worst case you have to combat rez, but unlike before our combat rez is actually useful, returning the mage to life with at least SOME power and health.

Krien the Wick · 09-20-2005, 01:41 AM

Shailen wrote:

Make sure your tank is taunting like a fiend. They should be pulling with taunts, then taunting, after that taunt they throw in a quick taunt, and follow it up with a nice taunt.

So so true. :smileyvery-happy:

I want to make that a sig!

Message Edited by Krien the Wicked on 09-19-2005 04:42 PM

Koramor · 09-21-2005, 12:32 AM

I must say the game for the Inq's has become more interesting.. We no longer can sit back read a book and cast a reactive every 20 seconds. Healing for us hasn't become "harder" per say, but in more need of attention. Our heals are slower and bigger (except for reactives) yes, but our overall utility with roots, soothe, and debuffs has risen from non-existant.

I have found that our reactives are still sufficient to maintain heals if you mix them with the debuffs. Coerced Repentance has become my bread-n-butter spell for groups. I keep it on the main mob as much as possible..

I've found that with a full group we can fight yellow and some flat orange con mobs with great success. (Edit: Just fyi, my main tank has been a 50th lev Assassin this last week!! My normal Guardian is on Hiatus!!)

My strategy I use is to cast both group and single target reactives BEFORE the pull (after the pull has a high chance of pulling aggro!).

Just as the MT begins the pull I cast Coerced Repentance (CR). This usually lands before the mob is in melee range and is doing dmg.

Once the mob engages, my reactives take effect along with the stun from CR. I now have plenty enough time to throw in Forced Compliance and sometimes 1 or 2 more debuffs (Making sure CR is still up!).

By this time I usually need to refresh my single reactive, which after being debuffed is almost sufficient enough to maintain heals on it's own. I sometimes need to throw in a big direct, but that is usually towards the end of the fight.

But Coerced Repentance is my main key.. Get it on as soon as you can and keep it on.

Hope this helps!

Koram Venomblade

50th Inquisitor

Message Edited by Koramor on 09-20-2005 01:35 PM

Kataleps · 09-21-2005, 07:49 PM

Atilla_The_Pun wrote:
So I logged on Wednesday morning, and played all day until about 8PM. I was in beta, so I had a bit of time there, but not near as much "group time" as yesterday. I think the changes are overall positive - combat should be a challenge, but it just plain wasn't before. I could keep a tank alive just by casting a reactive over and over.

So after the updates, I notice that we've lost the sheer amount of debuffs we used to have, but our capability to solo is way up, due to increased DPS. I like being able to cast a reverse DS on a mob and watch its health tick down by chucks. Great.

However, I have a couple beefs - And these are mostly nitpicking.

Level 34 Inquisitor, fighting in Runnyeye with a 33 tank - down to the muddite pits and a bit further. (Where all the boars are, but not the area with the EEs.)

Quick Heals - We don't have then anymore...most of our heals are slow but large heals. That's okay, but if a mage overnukes, if we don't catch it *right* as it happens, then the mage stands a very good chance of dying, simply because our quickest heal usually takes too long to cast. A small, quick heal would be useful for saving the frail ones.

Reactives - So they're down in potency. That's fine. But, I view reactives as the most unique method of healing among all the classes. Certainly, they made clerics distinctive. Now that's no longer the case, and they're really a tertiary heal, used as a buffer until you can kick off your main arch healing. Don't really have a big effect on things. That's a shame, I think reactives were our strong point before, and made clerics unique - Druids got HoTs, Shamans got wards, we got reactives.

Big heals - Okay, so now I'm more like an EQ1 cleric. That's okay, I guess. But in Runnyeye, I found myself just spamming the two big heals we got, and maybe being able to throw in some damage here and there. Reactives were great because they allowed you to protect someone for enough time for you to debuff and toss in some damage before having to get back to healing. Now, I feel like I'm constantly scurrying, trying to get two seconds here and there to drop in a debuff before our tank goes into yellow. I think making reactives a bit more useful would help in this regard.

As I said, I like the fact we cause more damage now...Inqs now have a very distinct focus from that of Templars. But I can't cast that damage or debuff much if I'm constantly throwing off slow heals just to keep up. Other than that, I'm fine with the changes as they stand.

I love this post, even with timers being linked (one of my only beefs until I read this) I would accept that in lieu of making these changes above. I also want to add that I don't like how those hidden little timed buffs were removed from Combat/Wound Healing and most of all, Dogmatic Healing (the offense/DPS increases) especially with all professions being somewhat nerfed/gimped on the combat/damage end, these 10-12 second buffs could have stayed around and been a nice compliment to the nerfs (that nice middle ground everyone is so found now of seeking out between the old way pre-expansion and the new way post-DoF).

Krien the Wick · 09-22-2005, 06:37 AM

Katalepsis wrote:
I love this post, even with timers being linked (one of my only beefs until I read this) I would accept that in lieu of making these changes above. I also want to add that I don't like how those hidden little timed buffs were removed from Combat/Wound Healing and most of all, Dogmatic Healing (the offense/DPS increases) especially with all professions being somewhat nerfed/gimped on the combat/damage end, these 10-12 second buffs could have stayed around and been a nice compliment to the nerfs (that nice middle ground everyone is so found now of seeking out between the old way pre-expansion and the new way post-DoF).

I think what we lost from the mini buffs on the heals, we gained on other buffs. With the dramatic dps increase on the abject belssing line, and the Act of Faith line being always on now, we can increase the dps of a group more than before (not counting Zealotry)

09-16-2005, 02:16 AM	#1
Atilla_The_Pun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	So I logged on Wednesday morning, and played all day until about 8PM. I was in beta, so I had a bit of time there, but not near as much "group time" as yesterday. I think the changes are overall positive - combat should be a challenge, but it just plain wasn't before. I could keep a tank alive just by casting a reactive over and over. So after the updates, I notice that we've lost the sheer amount of debuffs we used to have, but our capability to solo is way up, due to increased DPS. I like being able to cast a reverse DS on a mob and watch its health tick down by chucks. Great. However, I have a couple beefs - And these are mostly nitpicking. Level 34 Inquisitor, fighting in Runnyeye with a 33 tank - down to the muddite pits and a bit further. (Where all the boars are, but not the area with the EEs.) Quick Heals - We don't have then anymore...most of our heals are slow but large heals. That's okay, but if a mage overnukes, if we don't catch it right as it happens, then the mage stands a very good chance of dying, simply because our quickest heal usually takes too long to cast. A small, quick heal would be useful for saving the frail ones. Reactives - So they're down in potency. That's fine. But, I view reactives as the most unique method of healing among all the classes. Certainly, they made clerics distinctive. Now that's no longer the case, and they're really a tertiary heal, used as a buffer until you can kick off your main arch healing. Don't really have a big effect on things. That's a shame, I think reactives were our strong point before, and made clerics unique - Druids got HoTs, Shamans got wards, we got reactives. Big heals - Okay, so now I'm more like an EQ1 cleric. That's okay, I guess. But in Runnyeye, I found myself just spamming the two big heals we got, and maybe being able to throw in some damage here and there. Reactives were great because they allowed you to protect someone for enough time for you to debuff and toss in some damage before having to get back to healing. Now, I feel like I'm constantly scurrying, trying to get two seconds here and there to drop in a debuff before our tank goes into yellow. I think making reactives a bit more useful would help in this regard. As I said, I like the fact we cause more damage now...Inqs now have a very distinct focus from that of Templars. But I can't cast that damage or debuff much if I'm constantly throwing off slow heals just to keep up. Other than that, I'm fine with the changes as they stand. __________________ -- Adanna - 90 Ratonga Inquisitor of Unrest Chess - 90 Ratonga Brigand of Unrest Udda - 90 Conjuror of Unrest Dialli - 90 Paladin of Unrest

09-16-2005, 04:07 AM	#3
Atilla_The_Pun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	I still found minister wounds to be slow, but maybe that's just my perception. Don't have the splitpaw heal, so that's a moot point to me. Maybe I should invest time in getting some groups going down there. __________________ -- Adanna - 90 Ratonga Inquisitor of Unrest Chess - 90 Ratonga Brigand of Unrest Udda - 90 Conjuror of Unrest Dialli - 90 Paladin of Unrest

09-16-2005, 04:19 AM	#4
Erronn Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Just note that the splitpaw heal has a 6 sec recast timer, whereas our normal line of 'fast' heals [2 sec cast] only have a 4 sec recast timer... Erronn 49 Inquisitor __________________

09-16-2005, 04:24 AM	#5
Atilla_The_Pun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	What's the cast time on it, though? __________________ -- Adanna - 90 Ratonga Inquisitor of Unrest Chess - 90 Ratonga Brigand of Unrest Udda - 90 Conjuror of Unrest Dialli - 90 Paladin of Unrest

09-16-2005, 12:53 PM	#9
Vicenzo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 88	I managed to give my Inquisitor (29) a good 6 hour test drive in RoV last night, teaming against golems. Reactives are still our key heal, but need to be supplemented with debuffs and the occasional combat heal. Reactives on their own just dont cut it any more, but throw in the Iniquity (-28 Str & Int at Master 2) debuff and the Crushing/Piercing/Slashing debuff and incoming damage becomes much more manageable. Enough for your reactives to cope with, and you can toss on a Minister Wounds if needed. Just spamming Favor of Repentant (or its higher/lower equivalent) doesn't work any more as our tank found out to his cost last night. Sorry mate. As soon as the debuffs kicked in though, things became much easier. The changes get my vote. Like the other roles in a group, we actually have to do something more to heal. Instead of seeing 200 damage and healing 200, we now have to turn that damage into 150, then heal it. And our DoTs look good too. Stacking Oppression, Cleansing Flames, and Retribution with the generic melee combat strip away health in steady amounts rather than one big Smited chunk. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In nothing do men more nearly approach the gods than in giving health to others. ~Cicero

09-16-2005, 03:42 AM	#2
Krien the Wick Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 168	Hmm, minister wounds, and the splitpaw heal, are the same cast time as before for us, so we didn't lose our quick heals.

09-16-2005, 04:28 AM	#6
Erronn Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	It is indeed a 2 sec cast time, like our other 'fast' heals, and shares a recast timer with them... __________________

09-16-2005, 06:02 AM	#7
Krien the Wick Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 168	The splitpaw heals the minimum that minister wounds heals for, adept1 at least, but has a small chance to give power back. But yes, I didn't notice the longer recast on it! Thanks for pointing that out. Our fast heals have always been 2 sec, and the big heals have always been 3 sec, so nothing changed there, just the amounts and power.

09-16-2005, 12:12 PM	#8
Ravaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 554	So wait im not supposed to be using my reactive heals anymore? or sparingly? i used to be able to basically chain cast them and do fairly well.

09-16-2005, 06:11 PM	#10
Joos Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	I had a great time in PoF last night, the mobs kept removing the debuffs, so basically it went like this: Reactive, debuff, heal ... crap de-buffs removed, re-debuff ... crap mob dispells debuffs, without debuffs mob is much stronger, heal heal heal ... re-debuff, talk about using a lot of power :smileysurprised: So now mobs can not only resist they can also dispell debuffs, I guess thats ok because we can do it also.

09-16-2005, 06:53 PM	#11
Shailen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 391	Two things. To the OP: There's nothing wrong with a tank being in the Yellow. I've been learning that as long as your tank is above 60% and you're cycling heals, you'll generally be pretty good. Its nice to have him green, but with heal rates and damage rates, he's not going to stay there all the time. I think this is a GOOD thing though. If a tank is staying green for entire fights thats just stupid, it means either you're not taking hard enough mobs, or there is no challenge or risk in any fight. Second: Joosul wrote: I had a great time in PoF last night, the mobs kept removing the debuffs, so basically it went like this: Reactive, debuff, heal ... crap de-buffs removed, re-debuff ... crap mob dispells debuffs, without debuffs mob is much stronger, heal heal heal ... re-debuff, talk about using a lot of power :smileysurprised: So now mobs can not only resist they can also dispell debuffs, I guess thats ok because we can do it also. I haven't seen much of this debuffing in Pillars. Most of the mobs I've been killing have been cyclops and giants (57+ generally). I see the occassional debuff that surprises me and ends early, but my Coerced Repentance, Vigilance and repentance are staying up for their entire duration about 90%-95% of the time. And to someone elses post, yes I think reactives are still our main heals, but I see them as a buffer. Our skill as clerics is to slow the overall HP loss of the mob with reactives and then use our instants to do the real "healing" and get the tanks overall HP back up. With a reactive I will basically have the tank at a constant health (not losing, but also not gaining) when it takes hits. Then while waiting on my reactives to be ready for recast, I cast 1 or 2 instants and bam, tanks HP are back up again. If the reactive has now ticked off, rinse, repeat. I find that I generally have plenty of time though for debuffs. Especially early in the fight if you're getting your reactives up first. I was worried this wouldn't be a viable strategy because of aggro now, but I'm finding it works fine as long as the tank knows how to pull. Put reactives on prior to the pull and the tank should be pulling with taunts and taunting all the time, and this overrides any instant aggro from reactives. __________________ _____________________________ Shailon - 70 - Inquisitor - Venekor

09-16-2005, 07:51 PM	#12
Robbpilot Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Reactives are weaker and generate a lot more hate. I really used them a lot, and they are indeed not going to be the mainstay now. I've been having a huge problem with implied targeting not working correctly, especially with smites and debuffs. With the shift away from reactive heals to direct heals... It's not really feasible to be shifting targets during a fight to debuff or smite. I'm still getting all jammed up with the shared timer changes too, and the changes to what will and won't stack. It's going to take a while. It is also more painful to try to cast when you do have aggro now... more interrupts it seems. On the flip side, I seem to be finishing solo fights with a lot more mana left in the tank now.

09-17-2005, 06:04 PM	#13
harlock_j Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	So wait im not supposed to be using my reactive heals anymore? or sparingly? i used to be able to basically chain cast them and do fairly well. that's the biggest change we have. Reactives are good for soloing (they give you time to debuff what you are fighting at the start of a fight and to get those dmg procs on what you are fighting) and have their used in grouping but are no longer the end all of what you do while healing. They are a band-aid/supplement to your 'real' heals __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MAIN: XiuXiu lvl 35/25 (or so i'm slow to update my sig) Rat Inquisitor/cook freeport Server:Unrest Guild: Dragon Seekers

09-17-2005, 06:18 PM	#14
Kyo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 100	Hmm, i'm still finding reactives VERY useful in group combat. I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance. Then it's the small heal, large heal, single reactive, group reactive and repeat. If things get hectic I throw out our group heal which has a much shorter cast time. But i've seen that single + group reactives still bump the MT from red/orange health to green, and this is vs lvl 61 ^^^ I have stinging penance master 1 and contrite grace at master 2 though, so i'm sure that has something to do with it. Next /respec i'm more than likely changing that master 2 though, perhaps to our small heal. __________________

09-18-2005, 04:59 AM	#15
harlock_j Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance. that was my old tactic but i thought with the change in agro from reactives it would cause me to get agro before the tank could get a hold of it. I might have to try that and see if it still works. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MAIN: XiuXiu lvl 35/25 (or so i'm slow to update my sig) Rat Inquisitor/cook freeport Server:Unrest Guild: Dragon Seekers

09-18-2005, 06:33 PM	#16
Kyo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 100	There have only been a few instances where i've pulled a few mobs from an encounter onto myself and usually it's not that big of an issue. Inprision and fearful conversion both work great now. I love these two spells now, especially while duo'ing with a ranged class. __________________

09-18-2005, 08:01 PM	#17
Robbpilot Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Most heals are not as strong as before Single target reactives no longer stack and share a timer Reactive heals pre-applied can easily pull aggro off the main tank now Fizzles seem about the same, but interrupts are more common if the priest is being attacked Mana costs have generally been lowered Cast times on big heals don't seem to have been reduced Point #6 is where I see the problem right now. There are times that I can begin casting the big heal (the only heal that will save someone in major trouble) and it won't be able to land until they are already dead if they are not a tank. If they are a tank, they may still be dead if I get interrupted. I think all things considered, you have to view the changes as a nerf to healing, which I'm not complaining about... but I think some more balancing needs to be done here. That's because I don't think the intent here is to have people dying before heals can even land in a number of scenarios. So, I'm respectfully (but urgently) requesting a closer look at this and perhaps some tuning to make things more reasonable. There should be at least a decent chance of saving a non-tank who gets aggro in a group fighting white or yellow con opponents... shouldn't there be?

09-19-2005, 06:19 AM	#18
Krien the Wick Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 168	Robb, are you debuffing? I can honestly say that I haven't had trouble keeping anyone at all up, in a group, against high yellow ^^^s. The only time I have a problem is if the mob is orange to the person, or red.

09-19-2005, 06:57 PM	#19
Shailen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 391	harlock_jds wrote: I typically put my group and single reactive up right before the pull and use that time to put on coerced repentence and vengeance. that was my old tactic but i thought with the change in agro from reactives it would cause me to get agro before the tank could get a hold of it. I might have to try that and see if it still works. Make sure your tank is taunting like a fiend. They should be pulling with taunts, then taunting, after that taunt they throw in a quick taunt, and follow it up with a nice taunt. The only times I'm finding I get aggro by putting reactives up before the fight is on a pull of a large group, like 5+ mobs. Don't forget that aggro only builds on you when the reactive fires. Smaller numbers of mobs won't fire all those ticks right away, and a tank has time to build aggro. If you are putting the reactives up early, or your debuffs have a good chance of pulling aggro. In my experience, the only sure way for me to pull aggro, is to have 2 reactives up on the tank before the fight, and right as he pulls, cast submission/aquiesance/etc. I will get at least 1 out of a group of mobs, sometimes all of them. __________________ _____________________________ Shailon - 70 - Inquisitor - Venekor

09-19-2005, 10:58 PM	#20
Robbpilot Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Krien the Wicked wrote: Robb, are you debuffing? I can honestly say that I haven't had trouble keeping anyone at all up, in a group, against high yellow ^^^s. The only time I have a problem is if the mob is orange to the person, or red. Yes, I'm debuffing. If a mage gets aggro, or picks up an add... they can die before my big heal lands. I'm level 36 now... if level might have some impact. My big single target heal is master II, and all of my heals are at least adept I. I'd also point out that most adds are not debuffed, but again, I really think the point is that damage against non-tanks is so rapid that it can kill before a big heal can land. I guess I may be alone in that view though.

09-19-2005, 11:59 PM	#21
Shailen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 391	I agree this can be a problem, but I also find that its pretty rare. Usually either a combination quick heal-big heal or something like quick heal-reactive heal-big heal will save them, or sometimes drop my instant. Worst case you have to combat rez, but unlike before our combat rez is actually useful, returning the mage to life with at least SOME power and health. __________________ _____________________________ Shailon - 70 - Inquisitor - Venekor

09-20-2005, 01:41 AM	#22
Krien the Wick Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 168	Shailen wrote: Make sure your tank is taunting like a fiend. They should be pulling with taunts, then taunting, after that taunt they throw in a quick taunt, and follow it up with a nice taunt. So so true. :smileyvery-happy: I want to make that a sig! Message Edited by Krien the Wicked on 09-19-2005 04:42 PM

09-21-2005, 12:32 AM	#23
Koramor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	I must say the game for the Inq's has become more interesting.. We no longer can sit back read a book and cast a reactive every 20 seconds. Healing for us hasn't become "harder" per say, but in more need of attention. Our heals are slower and bigger (except for reactives) yes, but our overall utility with roots, soothe, and debuffs has risen from non-existant. I have found that our reactives are still sufficient to maintain heals if you mix them with the debuffs. Coerced Repentance has become my bread-n-butter spell for groups. I keep it on the main mob as much as possible.. I've found that with a full group we can fight yellow and some flat orange con mobs with great success. (Edit: Just fyi, my main tank has been a 50th lev Assassin this last week!! My normal Guardian is on Hiatus!!) My strategy I use is to cast both group and single target reactives BEFORE the pull (after the pull has a high chance of pulling aggro!). Just as the MT begins the pull I cast Coerced Repentance (CR). This usually lands before the mob is in melee range and is doing dmg. Once the mob engages, my reactives take effect along with the stun from CR. I now have plenty enough time to throw in Forced Compliance and sometimes 1 or 2 more debuffs (Making sure CR is still up!). By this time I usually need to refresh my single reactive, which after being debuffed is almost sufficient enough to maintain heals on it's own. I sometimes need to throw in a big direct, but that is usually towards the end of the fight. But Coerced Repentance is my main key.. Get it on as soon as you can and keep it on. Hope this helps! Koram Venomblade 50th Inquisitor Message Edited by Koramor on 09-20-2005 01:35 PM

09-21-2005, 07:49 PM	#24
Kataleps General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 20	Atilla_The_Pun wrote: So I logged on Wednesday morning, and played all day until about 8PM. I was in beta, so I had a bit of time there, but not near as much "group time" as yesterday. I think the changes are overall positive - combat should be a challenge, but it just plain wasn't before. I could keep a tank alive just by casting a reactive over and over. So after the updates, I notice that we've lost the sheer amount of debuffs we used to have, but our capability to solo is way up, due to increased DPS. I like being able to cast a reverse DS on a mob and watch its health tick down by chucks. Great. However, I have a couple beefs - And these are mostly nitpicking. Level 34 Inquisitor, fighting in Runnyeye with a 33 tank - down to the muddite pits and a bit further. (Where all the boars are, but not the area with the EEs.) Quick Heals - We don't have then anymore...most of our heals are slow but large heals. That's okay, but if a mage overnukes, if we don't catch it right as it happens, then the mage stands a very good chance of dying, simply because our quickest heal usually takes too long to cast. A small, quick heal would be useful for saving the frail ones. Reactives - So they're down in potency. That's fine. But, I view reactives as the most unique method of healing among all the classes. Certainly, they made clerics distinctive. Now that's no longer the case, and they're really a tertiary heal, used as a buffer until you can kick off your main arch healing. Don't really have a big effect on things. That's a shame, I think reactives were our strong point before, and made clerics unique - Druids got HoTs, Shamans got wards, we got reactives. Big heals - Okay, so now I'm more like an EQ1 cleric. That's okay, I guess. But in Runnyeye, I found myself just spamming the two big heals we got, and maybe being able to throw in some damage here and there. Reactives were great because they allowed you to protect someone for enough time for you to debuff and toss in some damage before having to get back to healing. Now, I feel like I'm constantly scurrying, trying to get two seconds here and there to drop in a debuff before our tank goes into yellow. I think making reactives a bit more useful would help in this regard. As I said, I like the fact we cause more damage now...Inqs now have a very distinct focus from that of Templars. But I can't cast that damage or debuff much if I'm constantly throwing off slow heals just to keep up. Other than that, I'm fine with the changes as they stand. I love this post, even with timers being linked (one of my only beefs until I read this) I would accept that in lieu of making these changes above. I also want to add that I don't like how those hidden little timed buffs were removed from Combat/Wound Healing and most of all, Dogmatic Healing (the offense/DPS increases) especially with all professions being somewhat nerfed/gimped on the combat/damage end, these 10-12 second buffs could have stayed around and been a nice compliment to the nerfs (that nice middle ground everyone is so found now of seeking out between the old way pre-expansion and the new way post-DoF). __________________

09-22-2005, 06:37 AM	#25
Krien the Wick Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 168	Katalepsis wrote: I love this post, even with timers being linked (one of my only beefs until I read this) I would accept that in lieu of making these changes above. I also want to add that I don't like how those hidden little timed buffs were removed from Combat/Wound Healing and most of all, Dogmatic Healing (the offense/DPS increases) especially with all professions being somewhat nerfed/gimped on the combat/damage end, these 10-12 second buffs could have stayed around and been a nice compliment to the nerfs (that nice middle ground everyone is so found now of seeking out between the old way pre-expansion and the new way post-DoF). I think what we lost from the mini buffs on the heals, we gained on other buffs. With the dramatic dps increase on the abject belssing line, and the Act of Faith line being always on now, we can increase the dps of a group more than before (not counting Zealotry)