Whats Up With The Tank Pet Nerf? Is HE Considered DPS? [Removed for Content]

raven0 · 05-11-2006, 10:35 PM

I dont really care about the rogue pet nerf, as that will hit groups harder than it will me when i solo... but why are they nerfing our PET TANK? There was no reason given for that. The Devs only wanted to nerf our group/raid DPS (which means basically our rogue pet). Nobody was complaining about our tank pet. So why are the devs nerfing our tank pets DPS too? The devs justify dps nerf with that we are doing too much damage in groups/raids, but they never mention a reason for the pet tank nerf. This means the solo necro is actually nerfed too SMILEY

Have the devs gone overboard? When they first start nerfing, it will usually break the class, and then they rebalance every other class and break more classes and fix the ones that broke something else then break even more classes etc. This never ends... I guess its good business being a "game designer" SMILEY

Za · 05-12-2006, 02:36 AM

As long as this doesn't affect the pets ability to cover agro, its a good change. A Necro in full defensive with tank pet is supposed to be "safe", not a killing machine. IMHO, the tank pet shouldn't be doing any more damage than it needs to hold solid agro. This balances out with the fact that necros do decent damage themselves. If we have to use the tank pet its becasue we're specifically forsaking damage to a great degree for the security of a tank. Doing this should put our tank in the T4 category.

cfteagu · 05-12-2006, 02:56 AM

Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks?

You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank.

I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is.

Za · 05-12-2006, 06:22 AM

cfteague2 wrote:
Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks?
You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank.
I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is.

Look, put the BS away. I'm not some newb wiz that doesn't know the necro class.Necro personal DPS is good enough to solo much exp trash with. Even without a pet, I solo faster and better than half the classes in the game.For pure solo exp grinding necros are awesome, we mow down blue - white mobs with our mage or scout pets + our added personal DPS and never drop below 90% power. So please oh please spare me the BS.Having our warrior pets hold mobs off just long enough that we can solo ^^ or even ^^^ mobs really doesn't take much. And if we're using our warrior mob, thats what he's there for... to hold agro, not DPS. And if towards the end of a white ^^^ fight the pet looses agro, or dies. Well a white ^^^ mob is supposed to be a huge challenge. At current, I know I can do a lot better than white ^^^.

RandomCarnage · 05-12-2006, 07:00 AM

Uh-huh... and you can easily do white ^^^ with what, exactly? Master pet and buffs? What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts? I have a 70 Necro adept 3'd out with about 60 odd masters to boot. I am well over the Int cap (had approx 570 self buffed then swapped some out for other stat gear but still running 540 ish) and have some 440 odd stamina plus generally high attributes. My gear is a mixture of fabled and legendary, and is not top end raid gear, but is better than most from having been in a raid guild since lvl 50 ish. Our tank pet, as you say is not meant to be dps. It is a meat shield to hold agro and buy us time to kill the mob. An adept 3 tank pet with master buffs (defensive) gets ripped a new one far faster than I can burn down even a low blue ^^^. My healing (inc master transfer and pet heal AND 40% staff) cannot keep the pet up. I end up having to root the mob and back my pet off. This is NOT the role of a pet class. Generally, pet holds agro well enough if you don't go silly with dps. Fair enough. Consistency in gaining agro is another issue. Necro's have some nice utility, but this being used to justify a 15k difference in hp between conj and necro tanks is wrong. Necros are a pet class, and our tank pet is just not up to the task. Before the predictable responses begin, I know how to play my class, and many people in the raid community that know me can attest to that, so that is not an issue here. I do well enough, generally, but only because I compensate for my pet. A blue ^^^ (abominations in stain) was never meant to be soloed, granted, but many classes can anyway. The distinction is that necro pets get eaten and can't finish a fight while equivolent conj pets can. My point is this. All pets (esp. the solo tank pet) should be comprable between necro and conj... let the distinction between classes be in their respective utility, not their core class definition ie their pets.

Deila · 05-12-2006, 08:06 AM

For what it's worth -

My experience with pet-tanking ^^^ heroics is very similar to Random's above. All adept IIIs though - no key masters - and yeah, even low blue ^^^s generally just rip through my pet far too quickly for him to tank them. The pet's incoming damage is the limiting factor there. Get it into the green range, even higher greens, and KIndataunts (my tank) can hold his own well enough to get the job done if I play it right. And I'm okay with that - that feels to me like the right sort of range I'd expect for skilled and reasonably well-equipped and upgraded Necromancers to be doing.

Other tactics that can be employed to try to take down blue or higher ^^^ heroics certainly exist. Just not my thing - I fell in love with the direct pet use aspects of the class. It's what I'm into. I push myself to see what I can do when I solo, with my tank pet tanking, and have had some pretty fun rides along the way. For times I want to root, then do horrible things to mobs, I jump on my Wizard alt. They're fun too, just in a different way, and I think better suited to that style of play. /shrug.

Still though - white con ^^^s, with pet tanking, seems pretty fanciful to me. Not saying it couldn't possibly be done - just that I'd have to see it to believe it. Tank pets just take way too much damage in typical fights. There may be atypical fights with some white con heroics (one dealing all magical damage would give tank pets some advantage - they can mitigate some magical damage, unlike physical), but it seems like that would be the gross exception rather than the norm. My poor Kindataunts - just gets his butt kicked too hard.

Getting back to the topic a bit, our tank pets do need some damage output. That's how they're designed to work, it seems. Persona window shows them as Berserkers, and that implies hate generation through a combination of taunts and damage output - in practice, that's how I see my tank pet behaving. Taunting attack use is sketchy and random, and that's made up for by other sketchy and random pure-damage CAs, and auto attack. By no stretch would you consider the tank pet to be a tool for DPS, in the sense used here in EQ2 - for burning down mobs' health. They hold mobs' attention (on a good day :smileywink: ), so the mob isn't trying to eat us, then soak that damage while we juggle trying to kill the mob off, and buying just a bit more time for our pets with life transfers - direct, or over time.

Okay. Everyone back to their regularly scheduled tension. SMILEY

RandomCarnage · 05-12-2006, 08:31 AM

Short and sweet. Reduce our dps by all means, but give our tank pet some MEANINGFUL mitigation. Our tank falls over way too fast, and we need big dps to survive the encounter. If our damage is reduced and our tank still gets killed as fast as it does now, then all that changes is that we have to start playing Wizard root/nuke style with the mob on 80% hp instead of the mob on 50% hp. Wonderful, we have root. Where is our 6k nuke to go with it? We are NOT root/nukers. We are a pet class. Give us a pet that can do the job.

Nemesis · 05-12-2006, 10:13 AM

All i can say is this, I'm sick and tired of devs nerfing everything around them, because of some cry-babies that doesn't know how to play their characters right. It's all about hotbar setup and learning to use it right. Devs seem to make changes everytime a cry-baby start complaining. Heard that a lot of wizzies had been crying that we do more dps than them during raid... well... SO WHAT!!?? who made the rules that it's not allowed? all I can say.. is this... learn to play your char right... learn your role in raids, and stop all the crying! man! I'm I the only one who feels this way??

Korb · 05-12-2006, 03:20 PM

Deila wrote:

For what it's worth -

My experience with pet-tanking ^^^ heroics is very similar to Random's above. All adept IIIs though - no key masters - and yeah, even low blue ^^^s generally just rip through my pet far too quickly for him to tank them. The pet's incoming damage is the limiting factor there. Get it into the green range, even higher greens, and KIndataunts (my tank) can hold his own well enough to get the job done if I play it right. And I'm okay with that - that feels to me like the right sort of range I'd expect for skilled and reasonably well-equipped and upgraded Necromancers to be doing.

Other tactics that can be employed to try to take down blue or higher ^^^ heroics certainly exist. Just not my thing - I fell in love with the direct pet use aspects of the class. It's what I'm into. I push myself to see what I can do when I solo, with my tank pet tanking, and have had some pretty fun rides along the way. For times I want to root, then do horrible things to mobs, I jump on my Wizard alt. They're fun too, just in a different way, and I think better suited to that style of play. /shrug.

Still though - white con ^^^s, with pet tanking, seems pretty fanciful to me. Not saying it couldn't possibly be done - just that I'd have to see it to believe it. Tank pets just take way too much damage in typical fights. There may be atypical fights with some white con heroics (one dealing all magical damage would give tank pets some advantage - they can mitigate some magical damage, unlike physical), but it seems like that would be the gross exception rather than the norm. My poor Kindataunts - just gets his butt kicked too hard.

Getting back to the topic a bit, our tank pets do need some damage output. That's how they're designed to work, it seems. Persona window shows them as Berserkers, and that implies hate generation through a combination of taunts and damage output - in practice, that's how I see my tank pet behaving. Taunting attack use is sketchy and random, and that's made up for by other sketchy and random pure-damage CAs, and auto attack. By no stretch would you consider the tank pet to be a tool for DPS, in the sense used here in EQ2 - for burning down mobs' health. They hold mobs' attention (on a good day :smileywink: ), so the mob isn't trying to eat us, then soak that damage while we juggle trying to kill the mob off, and buying just a bit more time for our pets with life transfers - direct, or over time.

Okay. Everyone back to their regularly scheduled tension.

I have to agree, I am gitty when I can solo a white ^... lol! :smileysurprised:

Eriol · 05-12-2006, 08:11 PM

As others have said, when you drop the tank pet's DPS, the agro generated drops as well, and it was MARGINAL at best previously after they nerfed it (though they keep claiming that they "fixed" it, they never really did bring it back to where it should be).We're taking it again. Bend over brothers and sisters...

Gargamel · 05-12-2006, 08:47 PM

Ignore Zald... he's is so the stereotypical message board dweeb.

He is so great, and the way he tells people is by explaining that it is unfair that he can be so awesome!

He is always for every nerf because he is just too good, and it can't possibly be fair for him to be so good. And if you disagree, then it must be because you are a wannabe necro far below his skill and its your own fault. If you were nearly as good as him, you would see that necros are just way too good on every level.

The double stroke of the e-schlong all in one swipe... great work Zald!

Message Edited by Gargamel on 05-12-2006 12:49 PM

raven0 · 05-12-2006, 09:17 PM

So if we true Necros understand the devs.. we can compare wizard dps and necros on solo content. If they parse more DPS than us on solo content, then we must submit feedback that their parsings are [Removed for Content] and our pet tank nerf was unjustified and nothing but amatuer reaction to a problem presented?

You know, it seems like the devs dont want a real balance. It seems they will always yield more nerfs than perks just because they know they will need to fix the error next month. Neverending story scenario? You guessed it.

Message Edited by raven098 on 05-12-2006 10:32 AM

Truwen · 05-12-2006, 09:35 PM

RandomCarnage wrote:Uh-huh... and you can easily do white ^^^ with what, exactly? Master pet and buffs? What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts? I have a 70 Necro adept 3'd out with about 60 odd masters to boot. I am well over the Int cap (had approx 570 self buffed then swapped some out for other stat gear but still running 540 ish) and have some 440 odd stamina plus generally high attributes. My gear is a mixture of fabled and legendary, and is not top end raid gear, but is better than most from having been in a raid guild since lvl 50 ish. Our tank pet, as you say is not meant to be dps. It is a meat shield to hold agro and buy us time to kill the mob. An adept 3 tank pet with master buffs (defensive) gets ripped a new one far faster than I can burn down even a low blue ^^^. My healing (inc master transfer and pet heal AND 40% staff) cannot keep the pet up. I end up having to root the mob and back my pet off. This is NOT the role of a pet class. Generally, pet holds agro well enough if you don't go silly with dps. Fair enough. Consistency in gaining agro is another issue. Necro's have some nice utility, but this being used to justify a 15k difference in hp between conj and necro tanks is wrong. Necros are a pet class, and our tank pet is just not up to the task. Before the predictable responses begin, I know how to play my class, and many people in the raid community that know me can attest to that, so that is not an issue here. I do well enough, generally, but only because I compensate for my pet. A blue ^^^ (abominations in stain) was never meant to be soloed, granted, but many classes can anyway. The distinction is that necro pets get eaten and can't finish a fight while equivolent conj pets can. My point is this. All pets (esp. the solo tank pet) should be comprable between necro and conj... let the distinction between classes be in their respective utility, not their core class definition ie their pets.

Mind you I am not level 70 yet and i don't have 60 masters, I have maybe 3 masters (and two are the free master 2's) my tank is the master 1...At any rate the only successful way I have done a 3 up...mind you a blue 3 up is the highest I can do successfully. Was with a mage pet using our grasping bone line of spells and the chains of torment. I would root throw down a bunch of dots, if root breaks land it on again, stun, have pet nuke..call pet off...throw down root/dots that have expired, back off and let pet nuke again...currently my root is only ad1 so it resists a lot. I won't say for any necro it is easy to solo a 3 up of any level the challenge is that a 3 up tends to resist more often than not on the root...but again I am not a twinked out alt with a billion master spells I am the average character with mostly ad1-3 spells with the exception of a rare few. At any rate that is how it seems to be for me and my soloing of 3 up's it is by far the most inefficient killing for me and I would rather solo a bunch of yellow no arrow or 1 ups and still have pet life/mana to keep going consistantly and quickly as opposed to just trying to kill the hardest thing possible. Consistancy and speed of kills is by far easier and faster than killings omething super hard that makes you have to wait a couple minutes to regen full mana. I dont like waiting and thus will kill small stuff fast. I agree with you in that 3 up's were never meant to be soloed. I believe it is to ineficient however it may be faster with a lot of masters as you say you have...though I don't have experience with that. The only thing I know is that it is just to slow to solo 3 up's as opposed to higher level 1 or no arrow mobs that seems to be far better xp. Or heck why not join a group killing stuff in a dungeon with everything being 2-3 up mobs...that is far better than soloing every couple of minutes 1 3 up mob when I can kill 3 no arrow mobs in that time. (isn't that approximately the same experience?) At any rate I don't think the tank pet should be nerfed in damage without fixing how often he uses his taunts...use taunts more often then i will be fine with the nerf in tank DPS...although his dps was never that high to begin with. But if he can keep agro while I am landing my dots down without the mob turning on me to soon that would be fine. There should be some degree however on when a mob decides that you are a threat. But if my soloability is effected by a lot then there is something wrong. I play this class for it's ability to solo and function well with a group. Not for it's high DPS, it wasn't until recently that I found my necro hitting top DPS in a group, so that was never my driving force of WHY i want to play the class. My schedual is crazy and as such I am not on when my friends are to group with or don't have a lot of time sometimes to group so solo has to be an option for me.-Truwen

KBern · 05-12-2006, 09:41 PM

cfteague2 wrote:

Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks?

You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank.

I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is.

Our pets are not even remotely close to a player tank.

Shipwreck_GPA · 05-12-2006, 09:42 PM

RandomCarnage wrote:

What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts?

I think that this game is balanced around Adept III's. Always have, except at very low level. Master is superior, of course. Adept I is sub-par, and except for incidental spells, anything less is inadequate.

Druzgotek · 05-12-2006, 11:38 PM

Solo white and higher three arrow mobs with my tank pet on it? Hahahaha, please stop, im going to have a heart attack from laughing.

Maybe I could solo some white con three arrow mob root and snare and dot kiting, never tried, but I did try a low blue and it was painful, but I won after several tries and deaths.

I will nto dismiss however that somewhere there might be badly designed three arrow mob, with low health, or low autoattack and nukes that my pet will resist. Who knows. But a standard three arrow mob 65+, no way in hell. My necro was full master 1 in tier 6 minus nightshade, and it was not possible then, now my necro is only full adept 3 with master tank pet, and it is not possible now. There is also no way in hell I could do it now if I upgraded rest of my spells to master 1, I saw them and know how much more they would improve my character, and its is not enough.

I have crappy gear, only 512 int, only adept spells minus some masters from t6 that have no upgrade in t7, and I pull hate from my master 1 tank pet very easily, often its on first dot, always its on the third, if i chain cast.

The nerf on tank pets ca will definitely give it less hate.

Oh well, I suppose I am wasting my time here anyway, it is clear the necro that soloes white and yellow con three arrow mobs in this thread is not a necro at all, but a wizard or scout.

Haavo · 05-12-2006, 11:53 PM

Makes you wonder if they play this game at all. Just another way for force playes who want to solo into groups.

Message Edited by Haavokk on 05-12-2006 05:01 PM

Za · 05-13-2006, 12:26 AM

Loog Garga-whatever, learn to play the game, its not difficult. More importantly, learn what to expect playing the game.I never said soloing ^^^ was trivial. But its also not rocket science, and its not impossible. I see way too many posts that dissed our old stuns, roots, and fear. Then I see people whining and saying they can't solo... Wonder why...If you used all the tools available to you ( and yes, I know a L20 necro doesn't have all the tools a L70 necro does), A L50+ Necro can solo blue ^^^ with a warrior pet if all his skills are at Adept I or better. Stun mobs to keep their DPS down, heal you pet, debuff mobs, when you can, root the mobs and pull pet back to heal, etc... you gotta use all the tools to get the best results and it seems like most people don't.Then you have the expectations... From the original EQ2 spec, I don't see where we're supposed to be able to solo ^^^ mobs. So why is this the standard? I will say its trivial soloing a single non arrow or down arrow mobs even with app 1 spells, so how is it that anyone can question Necro soloability now or after these changes?Necro tank pets all have to be balanced with the necro class itself. We're a sum of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts type class. Meaning that a necro and his pet should not be even remotely as good as a wizard and a tank duoing, but if you don't balance the mage aspect of necros and the tank aspect of his pet right, we can approach the same effectiveness as that duo combination, esp concidering that necros also have a little cleric thrown into the mix. Balancing a Jack-of-all trades class isn't as easy as balaning a 1 dimensional class.

Druzgotek · 05-13-2006, 01:04 AM

You should apply for a job with SOE as a developer, zald. You would fit right in.

cfteagu · 05-13-2006, 02:27 AM

White ^^^ ?

please. Either you aren't playing a necro, or you are lvl 5, or you are far better than I am. Or I suppose you could be exaggerating (ie: lying)

Honestly, since the LU13 revamp, the highest ^^^ mob I have ever soloed was 7 lvls below me. And I killed with my final spell, right before it would have killed me (pet was already dead).

Lvl -9 and Lvl-10 are normally what I stick too when I need to kill a heroic for quest -- which means i wait almost 10 levels before doing any heroic quest solo.

I CAN kill blue heroic groups, sometimes, by rooting and keeping some of them out of the fight long enough to kill some of the others. But its not a good exp choice cause theres a chance I will either have to FD or die if I wait too long when things are not going well.

Necros DO solo *solo* mobs well, I won't argue that. But I don't bother use the tank pet for that. The scout kills em faster, and ends up taking about the same percent of damage.

And I can solo one up or 2 up mobs pretty well. Necro soloing doesnt suck. But the fact is, we aren't the best soloers either.

And its long been understood that summoners are inteded to be a good solo class, so I dont see how our solo ability was overpowered. In groups, with some else holding aggro, so we can unleesh the scout pet, we do much more damage than solo with the tank pet. I guess I don't agree that the tank pets dps needed nerfing.

yes, I made an extreme point -- but the fact is lowering our solo pet's dps does not change anything about our group/raid dps, and it DOES change the solo game.

If the devs intend to keep our solo ability about where it is (I have no clue about this but haven't heard them say otherwise) then the lower they push our solo dps, the longer the solo pet has to tank.

I am not arguing the scout pet nerfs. But I dont like the tank pet nerf, and I really dont see how anyone can say "this is a good change" about it.

Anyways I'm tired of nerfs, and I'm tired of idiots posting how they like nerfs

KBern · 05-13-2006, 02:46 AM

Zald wrote:
We're a sum of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts type class. Meaning that a necro and his pet should not be even remotely as good as a wizard and a tank duoing,

You ever watch a wizard or warlock solo, ever watch a monk/bruiser or zerker solo?

We are not even close to matching the duo's, let alone even them solo with some solo encounters.

Our tank pets were not overpowered in any way at all.

A creative necro can kill some high lvl mobs solo IF everything goes right, but I am not sure about your spells, but master fear and master root are resisted alot and as soon as dmg is done they break...there is no fast refresh or stacking on the mob to keep it under control.

Guildies are always amazed at stuff they read here, and then watch the tank pets in action with a healer in the group...ask any healer who has tried to have a necro/conj pet stand in for a tank....they hate it and would choose a real tank in an instant...no questions asked. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying...just ask healer.

Truffor · 05-13-2006, 03:55 AM

Even conjuror pet can't tank properly in a way. Master pet, with master plane shift (for a total of 25k+ hp), stone skins and whatever, it can't stand in front of a random named in bonemire. We did some kills with a good warden, overhealing what he could. It's just buying time (sometimes just few secs), until pet eventually die. 4-5 hits taking away 25k+ hp... of a tank pet with better mitigation (due to a group buff), better avoidance (same group buff). Now as a necro, just trying to heal my tank pet and doing lifetaps to heal me is enough to take aggro back on me... If it can be used in some evil strats to kill "forbidden content" to solo players, it doesn't mean this BS can tank something. Nice RP spell.

raven0 · 05-13-2006, 08:05 AM

So the game is envolving into a world where we need Masters to compete PvE, and adept 1's are just the bare minimum we all need?

RandomCarnage · 05-13-2006, 12:03 PM

A previous post called "soloing heroics" (i think) addresses the issue of using all tools available to a necro to defeat the toughest possible single encounter, and I have posted there about tactics for doing so. It is possible to solo skywatcher, and I have done so several times. However, this thread was about our tank pet. The basic concensus is that our tank pet was in no way over powered, and this nerf may just add to agro control issues without making any difference to our overall dps. Reducing our overall dps is a seperate issue. Our tank pet however, needs to be able to get agro quickly, and hold it very well. Max dps is irrelavent, as long as our pet is capable of doing its job long enough for our dps (at whatever level it settles at) to kill the mob. Reducing our dps to balance raiding/grouping without a corresponding increase in the survivability of our tank will only result in soloing becoming a suicidal joke.

Errie_Tholluxe · 05-13-2006, 11:01 PM

RandomCarnage wrote:A previous post called "soloing heroics" (i think) addresses the issue of using all tools available to a necro to defeat the toughest possible single encounter, and I have posted there about tactics for doing so. It is possible to solo skywatcher, and I have done so several times. However, this thread was about our tank pet. The basic concensus is that our tank pet was in no way over powered, and this nerf may just add to agro control issues without making any difference to our overall dps. Reducing our overall dps is a seperate issue. Our tank pet however, needs to be able to get agro quickly, and hold it very well. Max dps is irrelavent, as long as our pet is capable of doing its job long enough for our dps (at whatever level it settles at) to kill the mob. Reducing our dps to balance raiding/grouping without a corresponding increase in the survivability of our tank will only result in soloing becoming a suicidal joke.

QFE. I can solo the skywatcher quite safely as long as my tank pet is full health, and I am full masters for pets and pet buffs at 70. All my damage spells are adept III or master. The problem I have with the encounter is that fully half of it is spent with the mob rooted or stunned because it ignores my tank pet completely. Once rooted it will bash away non challantely for a few secs til root breaks then right back on me. This is AFTER waiting for tank pet to get agro. The only reasons to use a tank pet would be soloing ^-^^^ mobs of any color, but in general even a green ^^^ can tear up your tank pet since the mitigation nerf. Why are so many people using the scout pet? Because they get more dps and dont die any slower than a tank pet in defensive stance for the most part. Having used both pets extensively all over KoS I can tell you from my experience that the scout pet dang near always holds agro better just from its dps alone. :smileysad:. Cutting its dps only lowers its agro generation far below par. Heck, why not cut a skill and add a straight taunt ?

FTL · 05-14-2006, 12:46 AM

Oh something i forgot to add on other posts, after this nerf can all other classes plz stop there whining if we still out dps them and just get over it, one thing is for people to say we overpowered, another is for people to still whine after they get what they want and still not happy, look at what spells/tactics u use if we still do, not at our class SMILEY

SOE might have created the game, but they sure as hell didnt teach people how to play it SMILEY

Message Edited by FTL on 05-13-2006 01:48 PM

Deila · 05-14-2006, 12:55 AM

There are only three absolute things you can count on in life. Death, taxes, and forum whining. SMILEY

Who the F stole my Na · 05-14-2006, 12:58 AM

today in lavastorm, we had a 3 person group.

38 fury

40 necro (me)

47 wizard.

the fury was posting parses after most fights, and in almost every fight, i tied with, often beating by a substantial margin, the 7 levels higher wizard.

That was with my tank pet serving as the group tank. And only at apprentice 1 too.

We were fighting encounters of 3 level 42 ^'s, encounters of 2 ^^'s and encounters of 1 ^^^'s

However the wizard beat my dps every time when we did non heroics, because of the shorter length of the fights.

It seemed to be that i had an advantage in longer fights, as it should be, but to outdo a wizard that was 7 levels higher, seemed a bit .. off.

O and, the pet lost aggro several times every fight, often not getting it back again. Always to the wizard as well, never lost aggro to me. So ..... Give us more taunting! :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by Who the F stole my Name on 05-13-2006 02:00 PM

FTL · 05-14-2006, 01:07 AM

The problem is for every other class they seem to forget one BIG thing when it comes to long term fights, thats called LICH/ARCH LICH no matter how much dps u can do, if u aint got the power to cast the spells you are nothing, and thats something alot of other classes/SOE forget alot, and the funnist part about this whole thing is that these are the same classes who moan about our dps, but at the same time want us to feed them power with our stones lol SMILEY

Yes there aint no i in team and yes there is 2 i's in "vin diesel" but there aint no i in necromancer, so remember, "There is only the power of the darkside"

Palapatine would be a necromancer if he played eq2 and would kick [Removed for Content] SMILEY

Shipwreck_GPA · 05-15-2006, 06:16 PM

Who the F stole my Name wrote:

today in lavastorm, we had a 3 person group.

38 fury

40 necro (me)

47 wizard.

the fury was posting parses after most fights, and in almost every fight, i tied with, often beating by a substantial margin, the 7 levels higher wizard.

That was with my tank pet serving as the group tank. And only at apprentice 1 too.

We were fighting encounters of 3 level 42 ^'s, encounters of 2 ^^'s and encounters of 1 ^^^'s

However the wizard beat my dps every time when we did non heroics, because of the shorter length of the fights.

It seemed to be that i had an advantage in longer fights, as it should be, but to outdo a wizard that was 7 levels higher, seemed a bit .. off.

O and, the pet lost aggro several times every fight, often not getting it back again. Always to the wizard as well, never lost aggro to me. So ..... Give us more taunting! :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by Who the F stole my Name on 05-13-2006 02:00 PM

Quick question. Was the parser tallying the whole encounter? Because I have a buddy who sometimes parses, but his is set to tally on "you recieve experience" not "you receive bonus experience", so when we kill a group only the last mob gets posted when he puts up the parse. Skews results all over the board. Drives me nuts!

05-11-2006, 10:35 PM	#1
raven0 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 35	I dont really care about the rogue pet nerf, as that will hit groups harder than it will me when i solo... but why are they nerfing our PET TANK? There was no reason given for that. The Devs only wanted to nerf our group/raid DPS (which means basically our rogue pet). Nobody was complaining about our tank pet. So why are the devs nerfing our tank pets DPS too? The devs justify dps nerf with that we are doing too much damage in groups/raids, but they never mention a reason for the pet tank nerf. This means the solo necro is actually nerfed too Have the devs gone overboard? When they first start nerfing, it will usually break the class, and then they rebalance every other class and break more classes and fix the ones that broke something else then break even more classes etc. This never ends... I guess its good business being a "game designer"

05-12-2006, 06:22 AM	#4
Za General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,084	cfteague2 wrote: Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks? You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank. I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is. Look, put the BS away. I'm not some newb wiz that doesn't know the necro class.Necro personal DPS is good enough to solo much exp trash with. Even without a pet, I solo faster and better than half the classes in the game.For pure solo exp grinding necros are awesome, we mow down blue - white mobs with our mage or scout pets + our added personal DPS and never drop below 90% power. So please oh please spare me the BS.Having our warrior pets hold mobs off just long enough that we can solo ^^ or even ^^^ mobs really doesn't take much. And if we're using our warrior mob, thats what he's there for... to hold agro, not DPS. And if towards the end of a white ^^^ fight the pet looses agro, or dies. Well a white ^^^ mob is supposed to be a huge challenge. At current, I know I can do a lot better than white ^^^.

05-12-2006, 07:00 AM	#5
RandomCarnage Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 41	Uh-huh... and you can easily do white ^^^ with what, exactly? Master pet and buffs? What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts? I have a 70 Necro adept 3'd out with about 60 odd masters to boot. I am well over the Int cap (had approx 570 self buffed then swapped some out for other stat gear but still running 540 ish) and have some 440 odd stamina plus generally high attributes. My gear is a mixture of fabled and legendary, and is not top end raid gear, but is better than most from having been in a raid guild since lvl 50 ish. Our tank pet, as you say is not meant to be dps. It is a meat shield to hold agro and buy us time to kill the mob. An adept 3 tank pet with master buffs (defensive) gets ripped a new one far faster than I can burn down even a low blue ^^^. My healing (inc master transfer and pet heal AND 40% staff) cannot keep the pet up. I end up having to root the mob and back my pet off. This is NOT the role of a pet class. Generally, pet holds agro well enough if you don't go silly with dps. Fair enough. Consistency in gaining agro is another issue. Necro's have some nice utility, but this being used to justify a 15k difference in hp between conj and necro tanks is wrong. Necros are a pet class, and our tank pet is just not up to the task. Before the predictable responses begin, I know how to play my class, and many people in the raid community that know me can attest to that, so that is not an issue here. I do well enough, generally, but only because I compensate for my pet. A blue ^^^ (abominations in stain) was never meant to be soloed, granted, but many classes can anyway. The distinction is that necro pets get eaten and can't finish a fight while equivolent conj pets can. My point is this. All pets (esp. the solo tank pet) should be comprable between necro and conj... let the distinction between classes be in their respective utility, not their core class definition ie their pets. __________________ Co-leader - Divinus (EQ2, Mistmoore) Co-leader - Divinus (AoC, Dagoth) Co-leader - Divinus (VG, Xeth) Leader - Talons of Fire (VG, Hilsbury/Xeth) Leader - Vindicate (EQ2, Toxxulia/Guk) retired

05-12-2006, 08:06 AM	#6
Deila Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 443	For what it's worth - My experience with pet-tanking ^^^ heroics is very similar to Random's above. All adept IIIs though - no key masters - and yeah, even low blue ^^^s generally just rip through my pet far too quickly for him to tank them. The pet's incoming damage is the limiting factor there. Get it into the green range, even higher greens, and KIndataunts (my tank) can hold his own well enough to get the job done if I play it right. And I'm okay with that - that feels to me like the right sort of range I'd expect for skilled and reasonably well-equipped and upgraded Necromancers to be doing. Other tactics that can be employed to try to take down blue or higher ^^^ heroics certainly exist. Just not my thing - I fell in love with the direct pet use aspects of the class. It's what I'm into. I push myself to see what I can do when I solo, with my tank pet tanking, and have had some pretty fun rides along the way. For times I want to root, then do horrible things to mobs, I jump on my Wizard alt. They're fun too, just in a different way, and I think better suited to that style of play. /shrug. Still though - white con ^^^s, with pet tanking, seems pretty fanciful to me. Not saying it couldn't possibly be done - just that I'd have to see it to believe it. Tank pets just take way too much damage in typical fights. There may be atypical fights with some white con heroics (one dealing all magical damage would give tank pets some advantage - they can mitigate some magical damage, unlike physical), but it seems like that would be the gross exception rather than the norm. My poor Kindataunts - just gets his butt kicked too hard. Getting back to the topic a bit, our tank pets do need some damage output. That's how they're designed to work, it seems. Persona window shows them as Berserkers, and that implies hate generation through a combination of taunts and damage output - in practice, that's how I see my tank pet behaving. Taunting attack use is sketchy and random, and that's made up for by other sketchy and random pure-damage CAs, and auto attack. By no stretch would you consider the tank pet to be a tool for DPS, in the sense used here in EQ2 - for burning down mobs' health. They hold mobs' attention (on a good day :smileywink: ), so the mob isn't trying to eat us, then soak that damage while we juggle trying to kill the mob off, and buying just a bit more time for our pets with life transfers - direct, or over time. Okay. Everyone back to their regularly scheduled tension. __________________

05-12-2006, 08:31 AM	#7
RandomCarnage Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 41	Short and sweet. Reduce our dps by all means, but give our tank pet some MEANINGFUL mitigation. Our tank falls over way too fast, and we need big dps to survive the encounter. If our damage is reduced and our tank still gets killed as fast as it does now, then all that changes is that we have to start playing Wizard root/nuke style with the mob on 80% hp instead of the mob on 50% hp. Wonderful, we have root. Where is our 6k nuke to go with it? We are NOT root/nukers. We are a pet class. Give us a pet that can do the job. __________________ Co-leader - Divinus (EQ2, Mistmoore) Co-leader - Divinus (AoC, Dagoth) Co-leader - Divinus (VG, Xeth) Leader - Talons of Fire (VG, Hilsbury/Xeth) Leader - Vindicate (EQ2, Toxxulia/Guk) retired

05-12-2006, 02:36 AM	#2
Za General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,084	As long as this doesn't affect the pets ability to cover agro, its a good change. A Necro in full defensive with tank pet is supposed to be "safe", not a killing machine. IMHO, the tank pet shouldn't be doing any more damage than it needs to hold solid agro. This balances out with the fact that necros do decent damage themselves. If we have to use the tank pet its becasue we're specifically forsaking damage to a great degree for the security of a tank. Doing this should put our tank in the T4 category.

05-12-2006, 02:56 AM	#3
cfteagu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks? You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank. I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is.

05-12-2006, 10:13 AM	#8
Nemesis Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 2	All i can say is this, I'm sick and tired of devs nerfing everything around them, because of some cry-babies that doesn't know how to play their characters right. It's all about hotbar setup and learning to use it right. Devs seem to make changes everytime a cry-baby start complaining. Heard that a lot of wizzies had been crying that we do more dps than them during raid... well... SO WHAT!!?? who made the rules that it's not allowed? all I can say.. is this... learn to play your char right... learn your role in raids, and stop all the crying! man! I'm I the only one who feels this way??

05-12-2006, 03:20 PM	#9
Korb General Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 161	Deila wrote: For what it's worth - My experience with pet-tanking ^^^ heroics is very similar to Random's above. All adept IIIs though - no key masters - and yeah, even low blue ^^^s generally just rip through my pet far too quickly for him to tank them. The pet's incoming damage is the limiting factor there. Get it into the green range, even higher greens, and KIndataunts (my tank) can hold his own well enough to get the job done if I play it right. And I'm okay with that - that feels to me like the right sort of range I'd expect for skilled and reasonably well-equipped and upgraded Necromancers to be doing. Other tactics that can be employed to try to take down blue or higher ^^^ heroics certainly exist. Just not my thing - I fell in love with the direct pet use aspects of the class. It's what I'm into. I push myself to see what I can do when I solo, with my tank pet tanking, and have had some pretty fun rides along the way. For times I want to root, then do horrible things to mobs, I jump on my Wizard alt. They're fun too, just in a different way, and I think better suited to that style of play. /shrug. Still though - white con ^^^s, with pet tanking, seems pretty fanciful to me. Not saying it couldn't possibly be done - just that I'd have to see it to believe it. Tank pets just take way too much damage in typical fights. There may be atypical fights with some white con heroics (one dealing all magical damage would give tank pets some advantage - they can mitigate some magical damage, unlike physical), but it seems like that would be the gross exception rather than the norm. My poor Kindataunts - just gets his butt kicked too hard. Getting back to the topic a bit, our tank pets do need some damage output. That's how they're designed to work, it seems. Persona window shows them as Berserkers, and that implies hate generation through a combination of taunts and damage output - in practice, that's how I see my tank pet behaving. Taunting attack use is sketchy and random, and that's made up for by other sketchy and random pure-damage CAs, and auto attack. By no stretch would you consider the tank pet to be a tool for DPS, in the sense used here in EQ2 - for burning down mobs' health. They hold mobs' attention (on a good day :smileywink: ), so the mob isn't trying to eat us, then soak that damage while we juggle trying to kill the mob off, and buying just a bit more time for our pets with life transfers - direct, or over time. Okay. Everyone back to their regularly scheduled tension. I have to agree, I am gitty when I can solo a white ^... lol! :smileysurprised:

05-12-2006, 08:11 PM	#10
Eriol Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,125	As others have said, when you drop the tank pet's DPS, the agro generated drops as well, and it was MARGINAL at best previously after they nerfed it (though they keep claiming that they "fixed" it, they never really did bring it back to where it should be).We're taking it again. Bend over brothers and sisters... __________________ Eriol Ancalagon A Summoner's Fall into Darkness

05-12-2006, 08:47 PM	#11
Gargamel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 708	Ignore Zald... he's is so the stereotypical message board dweeb. He is so great, and the way he tells people is by explaining that it is unfair that he can be so awesome! He is always for every nerf because he is just too good, and it can't possibly be fair for him to be so good. And if you disagree, then it must be because you are a wannabe necro far below his skill and its your own fault. If you were nearly as good as him, you would see that necros are just way too good on every level. The double stroke of the e-schlong all in one swipe... great work Zald! Message Edited by Gargamel on 05-12-2006 12:49 PM __________________ Willlow Halfling Troubadour Carpenter Antonia Bayle EQ2 Map -- The most essential eq2 plugin EQ2LLInks -- Which mobs drop what from where Advanced Combat Tracker -- The best combat parser and tracker (NOTE: All of the above are approved and sactioned for use by SoE and do not violate the Terms of Service in any way, so use 'em!) .

05-12-2006, 09:17 PM	#12
raven0 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 35	So if we true Necros understand the devs.. we can compare wizard dps and necros on solo content. If they parse more DPS than us on solo content, then we must submit feedback that their parsings are [Removed for Content] and our pet tank nerf was unjustified and nothing but amatuer reaction to a problem presented? You know, it seems like the devs dont want a real balance. It seems they will always yield more nerfs than perks just because they know they will need to fix the error next month. Neverending story scenario? You guessed it. Message Edited by raven098 on 05-12-2006 10:32 AM

05-12-2006, 09:35 PM	#13
Truwen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 25	RandomCarnage wrote:Uh-huh... and you can easily do white ^^^ with what, exactly? Master pet and buffs? What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts? I have a 70 Necro adept 3'd out with about 60 odd masters to boot. I am well over the Int cap (had approx 570 self buffed then swapped some out for other stat gear but still running 540 ish) and have some 440 odd stamina plus generally high attributes. My gear is a mixture of fabled and legendary, and is not top end raid gear, but is better than most from having been in a raid guild since lvl 50 ish. Our tank pet, as you say is not meant to be dps. It is a meat shield to hold agro and buy us time to kill the mob. An adept 3 tank pet with master buffs (defensive) gets ripped a new one far faster than I can burn down even a low blue ^^^. My healing (inc master transfer and pet heal AND 40% staff) cannot keep the pet up. I end up having to root the mob and back my pet off. This is NOT the role of a pet class. Generally, pet holds agro well enough if you don't go silly with dps. Fair enough. Consistency in gaining agro is another issue. Necro's have some nice utility, but this being used to justify a 15k difference in hp between conj and necro tanks is wrong. Necros are a pet class, and our tank pet is just not up to the task. Before the predictable responses begin, I know how to play my class, and many people in the raid community that know me can attest to that, so that is not an issue here. I do well enough, generally, but only because I compensate for my pet. A blue ^^^ (abominations in stain) was never meant to be soloed, granted, but many classes can anyway. The distinction is that necro pets get eaten and can't finish a fight while equivolent conj pets can. My point is this. All pets (esp. the solo tank pet) should be comprable between necro and conj... let the distinction between classes be in their respective utility, not their core class definition ie their pets. Mind you I am not level 70 yet and i don't have 60 masters, I have maybe 3 masters (and two are the free master 2's) my tank is the master 1...At any rate the only successful way I have done a 3 up...mind you a blue 3 up is the highest I can do successfully. Was with a mage pet using our grasping bone line of spells and the chains of torment. I would root throw down a bunch of dots, if root breaks land it on again, stun, have pet nuke..call pet off...throw down root/dots that have expired, back off and let pet nuke again...currently my root is only ad1 so it resists a lot. I won't say for any necro it is easy to solo a 3 up of any level the challenge is that a 3 up tends to resist more often than not on the root...but again I am not a twinked out alt with a billion master spells I am the average character with mostly ad1-3 spells with the exception of a rare few. At any rate that is how it seems to be for me and my soloing of 3 up's it is by far the most inefficient killing for me and I would rather solo a bunch of yellow no arrow or 1 ups and still have pet life/mana to keep going consistantly and quickly as opposed to just trying to kill the hardest thing possible. Consistancy and speed of kills is by far easier and faster than killings omething super hard that makes you have to wait a couple minutes to regen full mana. I dont like waiting and thus will kill small stuff fast. I agree with you in that 3 up's were never meant to be soloed. I believe it is to ineficient however it may be faster with a lot of masters as you say you have...though I don't have experience with that. The only thing I know is that it is just to slow to solo 3 up's as opposed to higher level 1 or no arrow mobs that seems to be far better xp. Or heck why not join a group killing stuff in a dungeon with everything being 2-3 up mobs...that is far better than soloing every couple of minutes 1 3 up mob when I can kill 3 no arrow mobs in that time. (isn't that approximately the same experience?) At any rate I don't think the tank pet should be nerfed in damage without fixing how often he uses his taunts...use taunts more often then i will be fine with the nerf in tank DPS...although his dps was never that high to begin with. But if he can keep agro while I am landing my dots down without the mob turning on me to soon that would be fine. There should be some degree however on when a mob decides that you are a threat. But if my soloability is effected by a lot then there is something wrong. I play this class for it's ability to solo and function well with a group. Not for it's high DPS, it wasn't until recently that I found my necro hitting top DPS in a group, so that was never my driving force of WHY i want to play the class. My schedual is crazy and as such I am not on when my friends are to group with or don't have a lot of time sometimes to group so solo has to be an option for me.-Truwen

05-12-2006, 09:41 PM	#14
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	cfteague2 wrote: Zald, are you asking for Necro tank pets to be better than player tanks? You see, if we have less dps, and yet can still solo, that means our tank pet is tanking for longer. If our dps is low enough, that means the pet has to tank for a LONG TIME. Which would mean it has to be much better than it is now, better than a player tank. I think you would agree that we don't want pets to be better tanks than a player tank is. Our pets are not even remotely close to a player tank. __________________

05-12-2006, 09:42 PM	#15
Shipwreck_GPA Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 231	RandomCarnage wrote: What happened to the premise that the game was designed around adepts? I think that this game is balanced around Adept III's. Always have, except at very low level. Master is superior, of course. Adept I is sub-par, and except for incidental spells, anything less is inadequate.

05-12-2006, 11:38 PM	#16
Druzgotek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 109	Solo white and higher three arrow mobs with my tank pet on it? Hahahaha, please stop, im going to have a heart attack from laughing. Maybe I could solo some white con three arrow mob root and snare and dot kiting, never tried, but I did try a low blue and it was painful, but I won after several tries and deaths. I will nto dismiss however that somewhere there might be badly designed three arrow mob, with low health, or low autoattack and nukes that my pet will resist. Who knows. But a standard three arrow mob 65+, no way in hell. My necro was full master 1 in tier 6 minus nightshade, and it was not possible then, now my necro is only full adept 3 with master tank pet, and it is not possible now. There is also no way in hell I could do it now if I upgraded rest of my spells to master 1, I saw them and know how much more they would improve my character, and its is not enough. I have crappy gear, only 512 int, only adept spells minus some masters from t6 that have no upgrade in t7, and I pull hate from my master 1 tank pet very easily, often its on first dot, always its on the third, if i chain cast. The nerf on tank pets ca will definitely give it less hate. Oh well, I suppose I am wasting my time here anyway, it is clear the necro that soloes white and yellow con three arrow mobs in this thread is not a necro at all, but a wizard or scout. __________________ * L80 Necromancer, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Berzerker, Defiler * * L80 Sage, Alchemist, Armorer, Jeweler, Tailor *

05-12-2006, 11:53 PM	#17
Haavo Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 31	Makes you wonder if they play this game at all. Just another way for force playes who want to solo into groups. Message Edited by Haavokk on 05-12-2006 05:01 PM __________________

05-13-2006, 12:26 AM	#18
Za General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,084	Loog Garga-whatever, learn to play the game, its not difficult. More importantly, learn what to expect playing the game.I never said soloing ^^^ was trivial. But its also not rocket science, and its not impossible. I see way too many posts that dissed our old stuns, roots, and fear. Then I see people whining and saying they can't solo... Wonder why...If you used all the tools available to you ( and yes, I know a L20 necro doesn't have all the tools a L70 necro does), A L50+ Necro can solo blue ^^^ with a warrior pet if all his skills are at Adept I or better. Stun mobs to keep their DPS down, heal you pet, debuff mobs, when you can, root the mobs and pull pet back to heal, etc... you gotta use all the tools to get the best results and it seems like most people don't.Then you have the expectations... From the original EQ2 spec, I don't see where we're supposed to be able to solo ^^^ mobs. So why is this the standard? I will say its trivial soloing a single non arrow or down arrow mobs even with app 1 spells, so how is it that anyone can question Necro soloability now or after these changes?Necro tank pets all have to be balanced with the necro class itself. We're a sum of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts type class. Meaning that a necro and his pet should not be even remotely as good as a wizard and a tank duoing, but if you don't balance the mage aspect of necros and the tank aspect of his pet right, we can approach the same effectiveness as that duo combination, esp concidering that necros also have a little cleric thrown into the mix. Balancing a Jack-of-all trades class isn't as easy as balaning a 1 dimensional class.

05-13-2006, 01:04 AM	#19
Druzgotek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 109	You should apply for a job with SOE as a developer, zald. You would fit right in. __________________ * L80 Necromancer, Inquisitor, Bruiser, Berzerker, Defiler * * L80 Sage, Alchemist, Armorer, Jeweler, Tailor *

05-13-2006, 02:27 AM	#20
cfteagu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	White ^^^ ? please. Either you aren't playing a necro, or you are lvl 5, or you are far better than I am. Or I suppose you could be exaggerating (ie: lying) Honestly, since the LU13 revamp, the highest ^^^ mob I have ever soloed was 7 lvls below me. And I killed with my final spell, right before it would have killed me (pet was already dead). Lvl -9 and Lvl-10 are normally what I stick too when I need to kill a heroic for quest -- which means i wait almost 10 levels before doing any heroic quest solo. I CAN kill blue heroic groups, sometimes, by rooting and keeping some of them out of the fight long enough to kill some of the others. But its not a good exp choice cause theres a chance I will either have to FD or die if I wait too long when things are not going well. Necros DO solo solo mobs well, I won't argue that. But I don't bother use the tank pet for that. The scout kills em faster, and ends up taking about the same percent of damage. And I can solo one up or 2 up mobs pretty well. Necro soloing doesnt suck. But the fact is, we aren't the best soloers either. And its long been understood that summoners are inteded to be a good solo class, so I dont see how our solo ability was overpowered. In groups, with some else holding aggro, so we can unleesh the scout pet, we do much more damage than solo with the tank pet. I guess I don't agree that the tank pets dps needed nerfing. yes, I made an extreme point -- but the fact is lowering our solo pet's dps does not change anything about our group/raid dps, and it DOES change the solo game. If the devs intend to keep our solo ability about where it is (I have no clue about this but haven't heard them say otherwise) then the lower they push our solo dps, the longer the solo pet has to tank. I am not arguing the scout pet nerfs. But I dont like the tank pet nerf, and I really dont see how anyone can say "this is a good change" about it. Anyways I'm tired of nerfs, and I'm tired of idiots posting how they like nerfs

05-13-2006, 02:46 AM	#21
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	Zald wrote: We're a sum of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts type class. Meaning that a necro and his pet should not be even remotely as good as a wizard and a tank duoing, You ever watch a wizard or warlock solo, ever watch a monk/bruiser or zerker solo? We are not even close to matching the duo's, let alone even them solo with some solo encounters. Our tank pets were not overpowered in any way at all. A creative necro can kill some high lvl mobs solo IF everything goes right, but I am not sure about your spells, but master fear and master root are resisted alot and as soon as dmg is done they break...there is no fast refresh or stacking on the mob to keep it under control. Guildies are always amazed at stuff they read here, and then watch the tank pets in action with a healer in the group...ask any healer who has tried to have a necro/conj pet stand in for a tank....they hate it and would choose a real tank in an instant...no questions asked. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying...just ask healer. __________________

05-13-2006, 03:55 AM	#22
Truffor Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 115	Even conjuror pet can't tank properly in a way. Master pet, with master plane shift (for a total of 25k+ hp), stone skins and whatever, it can't stand in front of a random named in bonemire. We did some kills with a good warden, overhealing what he could. It's just buying time (sometimes just few secs), until pet eventually die. 4-5 hits taking away 25k+ hp... of a tank pet with better mitigation (due to a group buff), better avoidance (same group buff). Now as a necro, just trying to heal my tank pet and doing lifetaps to heal me is enough to take aggro back on me... If it can be used in some evil strats to kill "forbidden content" to solo players, it doesn't mean this BS can tank something. Nice RP spell.

05-13-2006, 08:05 AM	#23
raven0 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 35	So the game is envolving into a world where we need Masters to compete PvE, and adept 1's are just the bare minimum we all need?

05-13-2006, 12:03 PM	#24
RandomCarnage Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Zealand Posts: 41	A previous post called "soloing heroics" (i think) addresses the issue of using all tools available to a necro to defeat the toughest possible single encounter, and I have posted there about tactics for doing so. It is possible to solo skywatcher, and I have done so several times. However, this thread was about our tank pet. The basic concensus is that our tank pet was in no way over powered, and this nerf may just add to agro control issues without making any difference to our overall dps. Reducing our overall dps is a seperate issue. Our tank pet however, needs to be able to get agro quickly, and hold it very well. Max dps is irrelavent, as long as our pet is capable of doing its job long enough for our dps (at whatever level it settles at) to kill the mob. Reducing our dps to balance raiding/grouping without a corresponding increase in the survivability of our tank will only result in soloing becoming a suicidal joke. __________________ Co-leader - Divinus (EQ2, Mistmoore) Co-leader - Divinus (AoC, Dagoth) Co-leader - Divinus (VG, Xeth) Leader - Talons of Fire (VG, Hilsbury/Xeth) Leader - Vindicate (EQ2, Toxxulia/Guk) retired

05-13-2006, 11:01 PM	#25
Errie_Tholluxe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 180	RandomCarnage wrote:A previous post called "soloing heroics" (i think) addresses the issue of using all tools available to a necro to defeat the toughest possible single encounter, and I have posted there about tactics for doing so. It is possible to solo skywatcher, and I have done so several times. However, this thread was about our tank pet. The basic concensus is that our tank pet was in no way over powered, and this nerf may just add to agro control issues without making any difference to our overall dps. Reducing our overall dps is a seperate issue. Our tank pet however, needs to be able to get agro quickly, and hold it very well. Max dps is irrelavent, as long as our pet is capable of doing its job long enough for our dps (at whatever level it settles at) to kill the mob. Reducing our dps to balance raiding/grouping without a corresponding increase in the survivability of our tank will only result in soloing becoming a suicidal joke. QFE. I can solo the skywatcher quite safely as long as my tank pet is full health, and I am full masters for pets and pet buffs at 70. All my damage spells are adept III or master. The problem I have with the encounter is that fully half of it is spent with the mob rooted or stunned because it ignores my tank pet completely. Once rooted it will bash away non challantely for a few secs til root breaks then right back on me. This is AFTER waiting for tank pet to get agro. The only reasons to use a tank pet would be soloing ^-^^^ mobs of any color, but in general even a green ^^^ can tear up your tank pet since the mitigation nerf. Why are so many people using the scout pet? Because they get more dps and dont die any slower than a tank pet in defensive stance for the most part. Having used both pets extensively all over KoS I can tell you from my experience that the scout pet dang near always holds agro better just from its dps alone. :smileysad:. Cutting its dps only lowers its agro generation far below par. Heck, why not cut a skill and add a straight taunt ? __________________ This is Pentium of Borg. Precision is futile. You will be approximated.

05-14-2006, 12:46 AM	#26
FTL Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 65	Oh something i forgot to add on other posts, after this nerf can all other classes plz stop there whining if we still out dps them and just get over it, one thing is for people to say we overpowered, another is for people to still whine after they get what they want and still not happy, look at what spells/tactics u use if we still do, not at our class SOE might have created the game, but they sure as hell didnt teach people how to play it Message Edited by FTL on 05-13-2006 01:48 PM __________________

05-14-2006, 12:55 AM	#27
Deila Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 443	There are only three absolute things you can count on in life. Death, taxes, and forum whining. __________________

05-14-2006, 12:58 AM	#28
Who the F stole my Na Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 31	today in lavastorm, we had a 3 person group. 38 fury 40 necro (me) 47 wizard. the fury was posting parses after most fights, and in almost every fight, i tied with, often beating by a substantial margin, the 7 levels higher wizard. That was with my tank pet serving as the group tank. And only at apprentice 1 too. We were fighting encounters of 3 level 42 ^'s, encounters of 2 ^^'s and encounters of 1 ^^^'s However the wizard beat my dps every time when we did non heroics, because of the shorter length of the fights. It seemed to be that i had an advantage in longer fights, as it should be, but to outdo a wizard that was 7 levels higher, seemed a bit .. off. O and, the pet lost aggro several times every fight, often not getting it back again. Always to the wizard as well, never lost aggro to me. So ..... Give us more taunting! :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by Who the F stole my Name on 05-13-2006 02:00 PM

05-14-2006, 01:07 AM	#29
FTL Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 65	The problem is for every other class they seem to forget one BIG thing when it comes to long term fights, thats called LICH/ARCH LICH no matter how much dps u can do, if u aint got the power to cast the spells you are nothing, and thats something alot of other classes/SOE forget alot, and the funnist part about this whole thing is that these are the same classes who moan about our dps, but at the same time want us to feed them power with our stones lol Yes there aint no i in team and yes there is 2 i's in "vin diesel" but there aint no i in necromancer, so remember, "There is only the power of the darkside" Palapatine would be a necromancer if he played eq2 and would kick [Removed for Content] __________________

05-15-2006, 06:16 PM	#30
Shipwreck_GPA Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 231	Who the F stole my Name wrote: today in lavastorm, we had a 3 person group. 38 fury 40 necro (me) 47 wizard. the fury was posting parses after most fights, and in almost every fight, i tied with, often beating by a substantial margin, the 7 levels higher wizard. That was with my tank pet serving as the group tank. And only at apprentice 1 too. We were fighting encounters of 3 level 42 ^'s, encounters of 2 ^^'s and encounters of 1 ^^^'s However the wizard beat my dps every time when we did non heroics, because of the shorter length of the fights. It seemed to be that i had an advantage in longer fights, as it should be, but to outdo a wizard that was 7 levels higher, seemed a bit .. off. O and, the pet lost aggro several times every fight, often not getting it back again. Always to the wizard as well, never lost aggro to me. So ..... Give us more taunting! :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by Who the F stole my Name on 05-13-2006 02:00 PM Quick question. Was the parser tallying the whole encounter? Because I have a buddy who sometimes parses, but his is set to tally on "you recieve experience" not "you receive bonus experience", so when we kill a group only the last mob gets posted when he puts up the parse. Skews results all over the board. Drives me nuts!