Silly rabbit, DPS _is_ for Conjurers!

Sol-the-Wi · 05-01-2005, 09:38 AM

So recently I downloaded and installed CombatStats, a parser that tells damage, DPS, all that good stuff. Over the last few days I've noticed something -- my DPS is much higher than everyone else's. I've been reading on here how our DPS sucks, how it's so low that we suck as a class. It's simply not true. I outdamage leve 40-42 scouts at level 37. On the EF boatride (dont it about 4 times in the past few days), where there are large groups, I do more than double the damage than the 40 scouts and wizzies. On the dragon at the end of the boatride, I still outdamage everyone in the group. Hands-down. No contest. All of my damage spells are Adept 1 with two Adept 3 exceptions (Dust Blast and Spiked Rain) and a Master 1 Shards of Ice that will be obsolete at my next level (3 SMILEY

. In every instance where the mob does not die in under 20 seconds, my DPS simply owns everyone else's. Now... in response to the soon-to-be-posted complaint that "Yeah, well... it does suck more at level 50. So yeah." -- We'll see. I know I'm not going to listen to it, because it's what you said about level 30, level 35, and level 37. I don't believe you anymore. Lastly... in response to the soon-to-be-posted comment "We do still have broken spells and pets" -- Yes, this is true. Once they fix them, however, we'll simply be that much better.

Xlap · 05-01-2005, 11:49 AM

actually, whoever told you it sucked at 30, 35, and 37 was dead wrong. but go against a level 50 paladin at 44...now everything right says even with 6 levels difference we shouldnt CONSISTENTLY pummel the pally in DPS...nope, took out my brand new shiny updated combatstats...he consistently beat me..over and over and over..i turned it off after about an hour because i was getting embarressed. i have adept3 tellurian recruit, vexation, shattered earth, aqueous hunters, and infernus seed, and ALL of my other non-grey spells are adept1 except swarm of bats. please dont say you wont believe us, because we do know what we're talking about for the most part

perkinsow · 05-01-2005, 10:14 PM

I play a necromancer yet i dont feel we are different enough that i cant post my experiance. I am level 45 and i group often with a 50 berzerker. On clusters of mobs he rocks me hands down but on longer ^^ fights i burn him good and with a 5 level difference i think thats amazing. we killed tundra jack and his bear pal last night with a group make up of me 50 zerker 50 paly 50 cleric 47 defiler. In the end i did roughely 31000 damage the zerker had poped close to 23000 and the paly less then 21000 (these are all rounded figures i dont feel like cheching the logs) The moral of my story is not all higher level sommoners feel we are so lame. play hard upgrade the right spells and your damage will be godly

Muad`D · 05-01-2005, 10:59 PM

I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group.

Ishbu · 05-02-2005, 02:16 AM

Muad`Dib wrote:
I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group.

Only if they dont have an AE

laedyana · 05-02-2005, 03:04 AM

Dps is fine in your 30's, from level 40-50 it goes down hill. Fighter DPS continues to scale up with better gear etc while our DPS isn't affected by better gear and we don't have a pet upgrade after lvl 39. (fire/pet still broken)

Also - lots of multi mob groups which means single target dots don't work well as mobs die too fast for them to be effective and AE's bugged due to your target is not alive syndrome.

Message Edited by laedyana on 05-01-2005 04:05 PM

YanariiFV · 05-02-2005, 03:23 AM

Muad`Dib wrote:
I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group.

larger raid mobs - that is 1 aspect where we shine...

What about those below 50, those that don't raid - they are faced with regular groupmobs or solo mobs - there, we lack severely in DPS.

A mob that takes some classes 10 (warlocks for example) to 45 seconds (tanks/scouts/...) to solo down to death, takes us well over a minute if not longer.

It takes over half a minute to just stack 4 DoT's to get damage started. If that's not an indication about our lacking DPS, then I dunno.

Yes, in a sustained fight, where our DoT's can do full damage and we can refresh them as they wear off, where the pet doesn't take damage and we can leech them for power as they are doing damage, where there's a priest in the group with power enough to heal you when using instant vim/manastone/shard of essence, that's when we can stack the damage and come up on top.

However, in general, how many fights that last over 5 minutes are there - and then we have to have a group to support us doing this damage as well - if you try to do all the DPS solo without the heals/buffs/... that come with groups, you'll be one dead conjuror if you heal too much, if you do too much damage - basically anytime the mob takes a fancy to come hit you as opposed to the pet.

Yes, we are nice DPS, in a minimum of circumstances... and that's not a balance either...

Jgok · 05-03-2005, 02:18 AM

perkinsowns wrote:

I play a necromancer yet i dont feel we are different enough that i cant post my experiance. I am level 45 and i group often with a 50 berzerker. On clusters of mobs he rocks me hands down but on longer ^^ fights i burn him good and with a 5 level difference i think thats amazing. we killed tundra jack and his bear pal last night with a group make up of me 50 zerker 50 paly 50 cleric 47 defiler. In the end i did roughely 31000 damage the zerker had poped close to 23000 and the paly less then 21000 (these are all rounded figures i dont feel like cheching the logs) The moral of my story is not all higher level sommoners feel we are so lame. play hard upgrade the right spells and your damage will be godly

Necros and Conjurors are actually very similar in how we have to layer our dots for damage, but from what I've seen, necros are better at taking down single big mobs, while Conjurors are designed to take down large groups of mobs. Both of us need a little time to let our dps get started, of course.

Not sure on necro spells and cast times, but my standard fight start on a single mob is...

Klicnik's Bite, Swarm of Bats, Roaring Flames, Flaming Agony (9 secs from start of casting to finish)

(if it's a heroic double-up, I'll lead off with Aqueous Hunters)

That lineup does about 150-200 per tick, depending on mob resistance. They're cast in that order because of their debuff components

Against multiple linked mobs, its...

Tremor, Seism, Shattered Earth (about 12 secs start to finish)

Those 3 dots combined average about 200-250 damage _per mob_ in the group... but the mana cost makes them worthless unless there's 3 or more mobs to kill.

So yeah, against a group of 6 mobs, I can lay down (200*6)=1200 per tick... Taking 4 secs as the average length for a dot tick, that makes 300 dps... for the duration that all three dots are active. Unfortunately, that duration is only 4 ticks... the length of Shattered Earth. For the remainder of the 30-sec recast time, the AE dot dps is cut in half at least, and you must rely on single-target dots and AE nukes.

Don't get me wrong... we have very respectable dps in many situations... but we're nowhere near comparing to a Warlock (or even some melee classes), especially from levels 40-50. The Sorcerer subclasses have had their patch and fix, so now I'm just waiting for ours.

laedyana · 05-03-2005, 10:33 PM

A big problem with parsing raid targets is (a) raid targets are long fights and exceptions to the normal exp grind but also (b) most parses I've seen assume only one conjuror in the raid.

If you are clocking one conjuror coming out toward the top of the DPS list in a raid - you are probably parsing a fight where the conjuror is casting all their DoTS - including aqueous hunters.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Last night we took down Emporer Fryst and we had 2 groups, one conjuror in each group. The fight probably took 10-15 minutes. The higher level conjuror was casting aqueous hunters and stacking his DoTs. I sent in my pet. What's left for me to do with my mana other than cast klinik's bite and dustblast while I'm watching wizzies land 1+k nukes?

My DoTs and Aqueous Hunters (which isn't a DoT, but is implemented as one), wouldn't land because the other conjuror in the raid is casting them.

If you parse the DPS of the fight - one conjuror is closer to the top with the wizzies - while my dps is much further down the list as I wasn't able to cast DoTs or Aqueous Hunters.

Sol-the-Wi · 05-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Stacking is one of the listed items in the Consolidated Bug List. Because two players can't stack their spells, the lower one is essentially useless to the group, and don't even mention having three.

lastlig · 05-05-2005, 10:25 AM

Raid content accounts for probably less than 1% of the entire content in the game. If you are happy with having good DPS for such a small, specialized field, then I think you're probably deluding yourself. Post level 45, battles last less than 16 seconds which means that your DPS becomes almost non-existent. It's purely mathmatical -- calculate how many spells you can cast and how many "ticks" your DoTs will process and you'll see that you can never compete with the DPS of burst and/or hasted classes. Furthermore, most 50+ raid critters have AE attacks which means you 1) can't calculate DPS using AH and 2) DPS from your pet is going to be up and down since you'll have to recast over and over. And Buff and ..

And as far as your "I'm not going to listen to your DPS about level 50 argument". Please. Go back and read my posts. I have always said that Conjurors have good DPS from 30-40 but, after that, it goes down hill. If you don't believe this then, again, you're clearly deluded. Nearly all the level 50 Conjurors that used to post here have quit the game or have mothballed their Conjurors completely.

Message Edited by lastlight on 05-04-2005 11:28 PM

StaticLex · 05-05-2005, 09:44 PM

My character is 49 at the moment and I have watched the parses of the groups I have been in. I routinely, and consistently get outdamage on every single "trash" mob by scouts and some tanks, especially berserkers. Trash mobs simply don't stay alive long enough for conjuror DPS to have a full effect. When the group I am in fights named mobs however, I typically dominate the parse.

Is that balanced? I dunno, I would think not but I doubt it's going to change because then they'll have wizards throwing a fit.

Message Edited by StaticLex on 05-06-2005 01:23 PM

-mi · 05-08-2005, 03:28 PM

Well Im still new to game..but in 2 weeks easily made L20... damage is ok...I was never under the impression that our class was about direct damage and DPS... tho if pets are broken they should fix that .. and maybe add a few... variety is nice... such as even if there the same stregth give us a few visual variations so were not all running arround using the exact same pet just cause its "best" .. but I didn't choose the path of the conj to be a nuker anyway..it was to be a pet owner..

so if you wanna be a nuker ..make a warlock ... if you wanna summon things to command then your in the right place and this discussions is not relevent.

just my opinion :smileyvery-happy:

Xlap · 05-10-2005, 06:06 PM

well hjere's the problem mia, you may not have picked the conjuror because you wanted a DPS class....but many of us did, and SOE has stated over and over that mages IN GENERAL should do more damage than any other archetuype in the game. just in different ways.

it should be

direct nuke = DoT+pet = buffs for other group members

NOT

direct nuke > DoT+pet > buffs for other group members which is how it really stands now

as a level 45 conjuror i would regularly group with a level 50 paladin...after about 15 minutes in permafrost being absolutely pummeled in DPS by the paladin, and really everyone but the healer i turned it off to spare me further embarressment

VizP · 05-11-2005, 07:00 AM

Hey this title thread is a Kill Bill reference - but Kill Bill is 'cool', are you sure summoners are 'hot' enough to be associated with Tarentino material? SMILEY

Sol-the-Wi · 05-11-2005, 02:43 PM

Actually, it was a referece to Trix SMILEY

VizP · 05-11-2005, 07:20 PM

Ah that would make more sense, the association with kids breakfast SMILEY

05-01-2005, 09:38 AM	#1
Sol-the-Wi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	So recently I downloaded and installed CombatStats, a parser that tells damage, DPS, all that good stuff. Over the last few days I've noticed something -- my DPS is much higher than everyone else's. I've been reading on here how our DPS sucks, how it's so low that we suck as a class. It's simply not true. I outdamage leve 40-42 scouts at level 37. On the EF boatride (dont it about 4 times in the past few days), where there are large groups, I do more than double the damage than the 40 scouts and wizzies. On the dragon at the end of the boatride, I still outdamage everyone in the group. Hands-down. No contest. All of my damage spells are Adept 1 with two Adept 3 exceptions (Dust Blast and Spiked Rain) and a Master 1 Shards of Ice that will be obsolete at my next level (3. In every instance where the mob does not die in under 20 seconds, my DPS simply owns everyone else's. Now... in response to the soon-to-be-posted complaint that "Yeah, well... it does suck more at level 50. So yeah." -- We'll see. I know I'm not going to listen to it, because it's what you said about level 30, level 35, and level 37. I don't believe you anymore. Lastly... in response to the soon-to-be-posted comment "We do still have broken spells and pets" -- Yes, this is true. Once they fix them, however, we'll simply be that much better.

05-01-2005, 10:14 PM	#3
perkinsow Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 28	I play a necromancer yet i dont feel we are different enough that i cant post my experiance. I am level 45 and i group often with a 50 berzerker. On clusters of mobs he rocks me hands down but on longer ^^ fights i burn him good and with a 5 level difference i think thats amazing. we killed tundra jack and his bear pal last night with a group make up of me 50 zerker 50 paly 50 cleric 47 defiler. In the end i did roughely 31000 damage the zerker had poped close to 23000 and the paly less then 21000 (these are all rounded figures i dont feel like cheching the logs) The moral of my story is not all higher level sommoners feel we are so lame. play hard upgrade the right spells and your damage will be godly __________________

05-01-2005, 10:59 PM	#4
Muad`D General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 72	I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group. __________________ 50 Human Mystic Kithicor Server

05-02-2005, 02:16 AM	#5
Ishbu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 949	Muad`Dib wrote: I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group. Only if they dont have an AE __________________ Ishbu!

05-02-2005, 03:23 AM	#7
YanariiFV Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 90	Muad`Dib wrote: I know at 50, Conjurers almost always top out the dps list on the larger raid mobs. My conjurer alt is only level 30 so I'm not that well versed in the class, just posting my experience of other conjurers in raids. Even at 30 though, my conjurer out dps's my other friends alts in our little group. larger raid mobs - that is 1 aspect where we shine... What about those below 50, those that don't raid - they are faced with regular groupmobs or solo mobs - there, we lack severely in DPS. A mob that takes some classes 10 (warlocks for example) to 45 seconds (tanks/scouts/...) to solo down to death, takes us well over a minute if not longer. It takes over half a minute to just stack 4 DoT's to get damage started. If that's not an indication about our lacking DPS, then I dunno. Yes, in a sustained fight, where our DoT's can do full damage and we can refresh them as they wear off, where the pet doesn't take damage and we can leech them for power as they are doing damage, where there's a priest in the group with power enough to heal you when using instant vim/manastone/shard of essence, that's when we can stack the damage and come up on top. However, in general, how many fights that last over 5 minutes are there - and then we have to have a group to support us doing this damage as well - if you try to do all the DPS solo without the heals/buffs/... that come with groups, you'll be one dead conjuror if you heal too much, if you do too much damage - basically anytime the mob takes a fancy to come hit you as opposed to the pet. Yes, we are nice DPS, in a minimum of circumstances... and that's not a balance either... __________________ Yaniro Petwrangler - Conjur(o/e)r - Antonia Bayle

05-01-2005, 11:49 AM	#2
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	actually, whoever told you it sucked at 30, 35, and 37 was dead wrong. but go against a level 50 paladin at 44...now everything right says even with 6 levels difference we shouldnt CONSISTENTLY pummel the pally in DPS...nope, took out my brand new shiny updated combatstats...he consistently beat me..over and over and over..i turned it off after about an hour because i was getting embarressed. i have adept3 tellurian recruit, vexation, shattered earth, aqueous hunters, and infernus seed, and ALL of my other non-grey spells are adept1 except swarm of bats. please dont say you wont believe us, because we do know what we're talking about for the most part

05-02-2005, 03:04 AM	#6
laedyana Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Dps is fine in your 30's, from level 40-50 it goes down hill. Fighter DPS continues to scale up with better gear etc while our DPS isn't affected by better gear and we don't have a pet upgrade after lvl 39. (fire/pet still broken) Also - lots of multi mob groups which means single target dots don't work well as mobs die too fast for them to be effective and AE's bugged due to your target is not alive syndrome. Message Edited by laedyana on 05-01-2005 04:05 PM

05-03-2005, 02:18 AM	#8
Jgok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 329	perkinsowns wrote: I play a necromancer yet i dont feel we are different enough that i cant post my experiance. I am level 45 and i group often with a 50 berzerker. On clusters of mobs he rocks me hands down but on longer ^^ fights i burn him good and with a 5 level difference i think thats amazing. we killed tundra jack and his bear pal last night with a group make up of me 50 zerker 50 paly 50 cleric 47 defiler. In the end i did roughely 31000 damage the zerker had poped close to 23000 and the paly less then 21000 (these are all rounded figures i dont feel like cheching the logs) The moral of my story is not all higher level sommoners feel we are so lame. play hard upgrade the right spells and your damage will be godly Necros and Conjurors are actually very similar in how we have to layer our dots for damage, but from what I've seen, necros are better at taking down single big mobs, while Conjurors are designed to take down large groups of mobs. Both of us need a little time to let our dps get started, of course. Not sure on necro spells and cast times, but my standard fight start on a single mob is... Klicnik's Bite, Swarm of Bats, Roaring Flames, Flaming Agony (9 secs from start of casting to finish) (if it's a heroic double-up, I'll lead off with Aqueous Hunters) That lineup does about 150-200 per tick, depending on mob resistance. They're cast in that order because of their debuff components Against multiple linked mobs, its... Tremor, Seism, Shattered Earth (about 12 secs start to finish) Those 3 dots combined average about 200-250 damage _per mob_ in the group... but the mana cost makes them worthless unless there's 3 or more mobs to kill. So yeah, against a group of 6 mobs, I can lay down (200*6)=1200 per tick... Taking 4 secs as the average length for a dot tick, that makes 300 dps... for the duration that all three dots are active. Unfortunately, that duration is only 4 ticks... the length of Shattered Earth. For the remainder of the 30-sec recast time, the AE dot dps is cut in half at least, and you must rely on single-target dots and AE nukes. Don't get me wrong... we have very respectable dps in many situations... but we're nowhere near comparing to a Warlock (or even some melee classes), especially from levels 40-50. The Sorcerer subclasses have had their patch and fix, so now I'm just waiting for ours. __________________

05-03-2005, 10:33 PM	#9
laedyana Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	A big problem with parsing raid targets is (a) raid targets are long fights and exceptions to the normal exp grind but also (b) most parses I've seen assume only one conjuror in the raid. If you are clocking one conjuror coming out toward the top of the DPS list in a raid - you are probably parsing a fight where the conjuror is casting all their DoTS - including aqueous hunters. Here's an example of what I mean: Last night we took down Emporer Fryst and we had 2 groups, one conjuror in each group. The fight probably took 10-15 minutes. The higher level conjuror was casting aqueous hunters and stacking his DoTs. I sent in my pet. What's left for me to do with my mana other than cast klinik's bite and dustblast while I'm watching wizzies land 1+k nukes? My DoTs and Aqueous Hunters (which isn't a DoT, but is implemented as one), wouldn't land because the other conjuror in the raid is casting them. If you parse the DPS of the fight - one conjuror is closer to the top with the wizzies - while my dps is much further down the list as I wasn't able to cast DoTs or Aqueous Hunters.

05-04-2005, 02:09 AM	#10
Sol-the-Wi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	Stacking is one of the listed items in the Consolidated Bug List. Because two players can't stack their spells, the lower one is essentially useless to the group, and don't even mention having three.

05-05-2005, 10:25 AM	#11
lastlig Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 100	Raid content accounts for probably less than 1% of the entire content in the game. If you are happy with having good DPS for such a small, specialized field, then I think you're probably deluding yourself. Post level 45, battles last less than 16 seconds which means that your DPS becomes almost non-existent. It's purely mathmatical -- calculate how many spells you can cast and how many "ticks" your DoTs will process and you'll see that you can never compete with the DPS of burst and/or hasted classes. Furthermore, most 50+ raid critters have AE attacks which means you 1) can't calculate DPS using AH and 2) DPS from your pet is going to be up and down since you'll have to recast over and over. And Buff and .. And as far as your "I'm not going to listen to your DPS about level 50 argument". Please. Go back and read my posts. I have always said that Conjurors have good DPS from 30-40 but, after that, it goes down hill. If you don't believe this then, again, you're clearly deluded. Nearly all the level 50 Conjurors that used to post here have quit the game or have mothballed their Conjurors completely. Message Edited by lastlight on 05-04-2005 11:28 PM __________________ ------------------------- Kelin Wintermute -- Level 50 (Broken) Conjuror -- Lucan

05-05-2005, 09:44 PM	#12
StaticLex Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,230	My character is 49 at the moment and I have watched the parses of the groups I have been in. I routinely, and consistently get outdamage on every single "trash" mob by scouts and some tanks, especially berserkers. Trash mobs simply don't stay alive long enough for conjuror DPS to have a full effect. When the group I am in fights named mobs however, I typically dominate the parse. Is that balanced? I dunno, I would think not but I doubt it's going to change because then they'll have wizards throwing a fit. Message Edited by StaticLex on 05-06-2005 01:23 PM __________________ When you've played this game for ten years and gone to bat seven-thousand times and gotten two-thousand hits do you know what that really means? It means you've gone zero for five-thousand. --- Reggie Jackson

05-08-2005, 03:28 PM	#13
-mi Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Everfrost Server Posts: 1	Well Im still new to game..but in 2 weeks easily made L20... damage is ok...I was never under the impression that our class was about direct damage and DPS... tho if pets are broken they should fix that .. and maybe add a few... variety is nice... such as even if there the same stregth give us a few visual variations so were not all running arround using the exact same pet just cause its "best" .. but I didn't choose the path of the conj to be a nuker anyway..it was to be a pet owner.. so if you wanna be a nuker ..make a warlock ... if you wanna summon things to command then your in the right place and this discussions is not relevent. just my opinion :smileyvery-happy: __________________ Miataki Kerra conj Everfrost

05-10-2005, 06:06 PM	#14
Xlap Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	well hjere's the problem mia, you may not have picked the conjuror because you wanted a DPS class....but many of us did, and SOE has stated over and over that mages IN GENERAL should do more damage than any other archetuype in the game. just in different ways. it should be direct nuke = DoT+pet = buffs for other group members NOT direct nuke > DoT+pet > buffs for other group members which is how it really stands now as a level 45 conjuror i would regularly group with a level 50 paladin...after about 15 minutes in permafrost being absolutely pummeled in DPS by the paladin, and really everyone but the healer i turned it off to spare me further embarressment

05-11-2005, 07:00 AM	#15
VizP Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 558	Hey this title thread is a Kill Bill reference - but Kill Bill is 'cool', are you sure summoners are 'hot' enough to be associated with Tarentino material? __________________ The Fable of the Soulmover - Silthian's Journal

05-11-2005, 02:43 PM	#16
Sol-the-Wi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	Actually, it was a referece to Trix

05-11-2005, 07:20 PM	#17
VizP Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 558	Ah that would make more sense, the association with kids breakfast __________________ The Fable of the Soulmover - Silthian's Journal