LU#24: Mob Control Issues

Oumana · 05-05-2006, 08:02 PM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Check it out...potential impact to our spells. The discussion is somewhat, confusing...

There isn't class specific details out there...surprise, surprise. From a raid perspective, I'm not sure if I'm reading some of our spells now may have an impact on epics (ie: Ice Nova knockdown) or not....

Just wanted to get this out there to the wizzie community...read it, let's discuss and determine the impact (if we can) on wizards...

Oumania

Bucksno · 05-05-2006, 08:12 PM

None of our control effects will be working on Epic encounters. See the following:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=12915#M12915

As to potential effects, it's likely that our Knockdown and Stun effects may be reduced in duration by a second or so but since they aren't long in the first place I don't see that having much effect. The example int he post used a 4 sec duration ability that was hypothetically reduced to 2.5 second. We don't even have any stuns or knockdowns that last 4 seconds so our reduction (if any) would be even less.

On the otherhand, our roots are our bread and butter. Reduction in the duration or recast of those could have dramatic and drastic effects.

Message Edited by Bucksnort on 05-05-2006 09:18 AM

IllusiveThoughts · 05-05-2006, 08:41 PM

I voiced my concearns on the 4th page here's what I had to say, most of you dont realize if they nerf our stun/stifle durations it will be a double nerf.

"

Okay devs, you need to realize this important fact that about WIZARDS

Since LU 15 the following *control* effects were NINJA NERFED and never EVER fixed since then.

This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it.

Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec
Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec
Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec
Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec

Update for Tier 7

Ceace stifle is 4.3 seconds.

ALL our stuns on our stun line are 3 seconds. they did not get an increase as the tier went up. Our stifle line got a .3s increase in tier 7 (yeah thats overpowered......)

What I want you DEVS to realize when you go about making these sweeping changes, is to leave our *control* effect type spells the hell alone. You already ninja nerfed them and never fixed them now I find out you may nerf them again (in effect a double nerf!.....one ninja, one announced)

In short leave us alone because if you break our stuns and ONE stifle we'll never get it fixed (see past history for reference)"

QQ-Fatman · 05-05-2006, 09:03 PM

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it.

Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec
Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec
Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec
Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec

I tried a few times, but then I gave up... In Lu13, Lapse was 13sec actually... then nerfed to 6sec (in one of the hotfix , along with our ae root duration halved, recast doubled.) Then Lu15, 6sec -> 4sec... it's just pathetic. Even before the combot change, our stifle was 10sec duration, 20sec recast... and it wasnt overpowered at all.

IllusiveThoughts · 05-05-2006, 10:15 PM

QQFatman wrote:

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it.

Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec
Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec
Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec
Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec

I Even before the combot change, our stifle was 10sec duration, 20sec recast... and it wasnt overpowered at all.

Agreed. but back then it used to pacify, which would stop a mob for using mele all together. practically a stun at that point. I could see why they would of reduced the durations back then

however, now that stifle only stops casting spells and ca not auto attack it doesn't have the same over poweredn'ess as it used to. I actually think our stifle and incapacitate line need to be lengthened not shortened

on a side note, i rely heavily on our stuns in group settings against non immune mobs to allow me to do t1 dps. since we can pretty much pull agro on tanks other than paly's. if they do cut the durations by 37% as some suggested. I wouldn't be able to keep the mob stunned for the last 30-40% of his health (when I usually pull agro) which usually is about 4-5 seconds.

This will make our lack of de-agro an even larger problem, that spills over into group content.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:19 AM

IllusiveThoughts · 05-05-2006, 10:53 PM

some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread.

From Lockeye:

"A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations:

Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only."

seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM

QQ-Fatman · 05-06-2006, 01:22 AM

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread.

From Lockeye:

"A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations:

Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only."

seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM

hmm... i only hope they'll fix that so the snare proc when root breaking doesnt break with the root itself at the same time! I really hate dying because of this - when i cast a spell on a rooted mob -> the root breaks and the snare doest come out (actually it does but breaks immediately.)

IllusiveThoughts · 05-06-2006, 01:31 AM

QQFatman wrote:

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread.

From Lockeye:

"A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations:

Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only."

seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM

hmm... i only hope they'll fix that so the snare proc when root breaking doesnt break with the root itself at the same time! I really hate dying because of this - when i cast a spell on a rooted mob -> the root breaks and the snare doest come out (actually it does but breaks immediately.)

its super rare when it does happen, but now this change will fix that.

remember that the *hostile spell and dmg* counted as 2 rolls. so that in effect if you had a bad roll your root would break, then the 2nd roll for dmg would break the 5% chance to break snare.

this change makes it so it will only roll once. thus making the snare effect always go off on root breakage, and removing that random root /snare drop that usually kills us

Geoxam · 05-06-2006, 02:17 AM

Don't forget that Useless dot line we have (Heat Convulsions.... something like that?).

That used to have a Stifle effect which 'mysteriously disapeared' makeing the spell line Only have a Super Low Damage tic.....

-Gelidpyre

70 Wizard / 70 Sage

Unrest Server

Relytinian · 05-06-2006, 02:41 AM

IllusiveThoughts wrote:

on a side note, i rely heavily on our stuns in group settings against non immune mobs to allow me to do t1 dps. since we can pretty much pull agro on tanks other than paly's. if they do cut the durations by 37% as some suggested. I wouldn't be able to keep the mob stunned for the last 30-40% of his health (when I usually pull agro) which usually is about 4-5 seconds.

This will make our lack of de-agro an even larger problem, that spills over into group content.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-200611:19 AM

This is exactly my worry. I pull aggro alot but when I do I have the mob stunned pretty much the entire time and I take no damage. I usually use Ice Nova > Incapacitate > and maybe surging tempest if it's not dead yet for that little extra stun. Even as it stands there are split seconds between our stuns that the mob can get a hit in, if they lower the duration on them our chance of dieing in this scenario will increase greatly.

curtlewis · 05-11-2006, 12:49 AM

"seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part"What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage?Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break.Debuff? Same.

Tanit · 05-11-2006, 01:00 AM

A root? Cant think of anything else.

Barobra · 05-11-2006, 01:02 AM

curtlewis wrote:
"seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part"

What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage?

Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break.
Debuff? Same.

Hostile action would be any spell cast on a mob. Doesn't mean it will work that way though....

But a hostile action could be a debuff or stifle.

IllusiveThoughts · 05-11-2006, 01:45 AM

curtlewis wrote:
"seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part"

What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage?

Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break.
Debuff? Same.

the ever growing useless mez. I hope they remove the immunities to group mobs when the enchanter fix goes in .

Hex dolls dont do dmg, thus if you wanted to you could stack up 2 of them, also roots unless you proc on the root cast in effect making it so they can be doubled up with out breaking another one.

also nice side bonus if you duo with a illusionist or coercer they can perma stun/stifle the mob without breaking your root SMILEY

either way curt this is a nice change and frankly I dont think we should be complaining about it.

Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-10-2006 02:47 PM

05-05-2006, 08:41 PM	#3
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	I voiced my concearns on the 4th page here's what I had to say, most of you dont realize if they nerf our stun/stifle durations it will be a double nerf. " Okay devs, you need to realize this important fact that about *WIZARDS* Since LU 15 the following *control* effects were NINJA NERFED and never EVER fixed since then. This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it. Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec Update for Tier 7 Ceace stifle is 4.3 seconds. ALL our stuns on our stun line are 3 seconds. they did not get an increase as the tier went up. Our stifle line got a .3s increase in tier 7 (yeah thats overpowered......) What I want you DEVS to realize when you go about making these sweeping changes, is to leave our control effect type spells the hell alone. You already ninja nerfed them and never fixed them now I find out you may nerf them again (in effect a double nerf!.....one ninja, one announced) In short leave us alone because if you break our stuns and ONE stifle we'll never get it fixed (see past history for reference)" __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

05-05-2006, 09:03 PM	#4
QQ-Fatman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 538	IllusiveThoughts wrote: This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it. Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec I tried a few times, but then I gave up... In Lu13, Lapse was 13sec actually... then nerfed to 6sec (in one of the hotfix , along with our ae root duration halved, recast doubled.) Then Lu15, 6sec -> 4sec... it's just pathetic. Even before the combot change, our stifle was 10sec duration, 20sec recast... and it wasnt overpowered at all.

05-05-2006, 10:15 PM	#5
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	QQFatman wrote: IllusiveThoughts wrote: This is tier 5 & 6 spells because frankly they've been ninja'd since then and most wizards probably forgot/gave up trying to get you all to fix it. Incapacitate: stun 4sec -> 3sec Paralyze: stun 3.5sec -> 3sec Lapse: stifle 6sec -> 4sec Enfeeblement: stifle 4.5sec -> 3.5sec I Even before the combot change, our stifle was 10sec duration, 20sec recast... and it wasnt overpowered at all. Agreed. but back then it used to pacify, which would stop a mob for using mele all together. practically a stun at that point. I could see why they would of reduced the durations back then however, now that stifle only stops casting spells and ca not auto attack it doesn't have the same over poweredn'ess as it used to. I actually think our stifle and incapacitate line need to be lengthened not shortened on a side note, i rely heavily on our stuns in group settings against non immune mobs to allow me to do t1 dps. since we can pretty much pull agro on tanks other than paly's. if they do cut the durations by 37% as some suggested. I wouldn't be able to keep the mob stunned for the last 30-40% of his health (when I usually pull agro) which usually is about 4-5 seconds. This will make our lack of de-agro an even larger problem, that spills over into group content. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:19 AM __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

05-05-2006, 10:53 PM	#6
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread. From Lockeye: "A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations: Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only." seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

05-06-2006, 01:22 AM	#7
QQ-Fatman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 538	IllusiveThoughts wrote: some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread. From Lockeye: "A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations: Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only." seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM hmm... i only hope they'll fix that so the snare proc when root breaking doesnt break with the root itself at the same time! I really hate dying because of this - when i cast a spell on a rooted mob -> the root breaks and the snare doest come out (actually it does but breaks immediately.)

05-05-2006, 08:02 PM	#1
Oumana Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 71	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=102219&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 Check it out...potential impact to our spells. The discussion is somewhat, confusing... There isn't class specific details out there...surprise, surprise. From a raid perspective, I'm not sure if I'm reading some of our spells now may have an impact on epics (ie: Ice Nova knockdown) or not.... Just wanted to get this out there to the wizzie community...read it, let's discuss and determine the impact (if we can) on wizards... Oumania

05-05-2006, 08:12 PM	#2
Bucksno Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 118	None of our control effects will be working on Epic encounters. See the following: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=12915#M12915 As to potential effects, it's likely that our Knockdown and Stun effects may be reduced in duration by a second or so but since they aren't long in the first place I don't see that having much effect. The example int he post used a 4 sec duration ability that was hypothetically reduced to 2.5 second. We don't even have any stuns or knockdowns that last 4 seconds so our reduction (if any) would be even less. On the otherhand, our roots are our bread and butter. Reduction in the duration or recast of those could have dramatic and drastic effects. Message Edited by Bucksnort on 05-05-2006 09:18 AM __________________

05-06-2006, 01:31 AM	#8
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	QQFatman wrote: IllusiveThoughts wrote: some good news that has come out of the mailstrom of crap in that thread. From Lockeye: "A couple of other notes coming to remove speculations: Roots: All roots that had an overall 20% chance to break on taking damage or hostile actions are changing to 15% damage only." seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part. thus giving us a 25% less chance to break on nuking. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-2006 11:54 AM hmm... i only hope they'll fix that so the snare proc when root breaking doesnt break with the root itself at the same time! I really hate dying because of this - when i cast a spell on a rooted mob -> the root breaks and the snare doest come out (actually it does but breaks immediately.) its super rare when it does happen, but now this change will fix that. remember that the hostile spell and dmg counted as 2 rolls. so that in effect if you had a bad roll your root would break, then the 2nd roll for dmg would break the 5% chance to break snare. this change makes it so it will only roll once. thus making the snare effect always go off on root breakage, and removing that random root /snare drop that usually kills us __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.

05-06-2006, 02:17 AM	#9
Geoxam Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	Don't forget that Useless dot line we have (Heat Convulsions.... something like that?). That used to have a Stifle effect which 'mysteriously disapeared' makeing the spell line Only have a Super Low Damage tic..... -Gelidpyre 70 Wizard / 70 Sage Unrest Server

05-06-2006, 02:41 AM	#10
Relytinian Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 21	IllusiveThoughts wrote: on a side note, i rely heavily on our stuns in group settings against non immune mobs to allow me to do t1 dps. since we can pretty much pull agro on tanks other than paly's. if they do cut the durations by 37% as some suggested. I wouldn't be able to keep the mob stunned for the last 30-40% of his health (when I usually pull agro) which usually is about 4-5 seconds. This will make our lack of de-agro an even larger problem, that spills over into group content. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-05-200611:19 AM This is exactly my worry. I pull aggro alot but when I do I have the mob stunned pretty much the entire time and I take no damage. I usually use Ice Nova > Incapacitate > and maybe surging tempest if it's not dead yet for that little extra stun. Even as it stands there are split seconds between our stuns that the mob can get a hit in, if they lower the duration on them our chance of dieing in this scenario will increase greatly. __________________ Relytinian Dragonspirit - 70 Wizard of Mistmoore

05-11-2006, 12:49 AM	#11
curtlewis Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 246	"seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part"What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage?Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break.Debuff? Same.

05-11-2006, 01:00 AM	#12
Tanit General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 611	A root? Cant think of anything else. __________________ Tethra of Xanadu - Runnyeye. Xanadu Raid Loot Database

05-11-2006, 01:02 AM	#13
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	curtlewis wrote: "seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part" What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage? Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break. Debuff? Same. Hostile action would be any spell cast on a mob. Doesn't mean it will work that way though.... But a hostile action could be a debuff or stifle.

05-11-2006, 01:45 AM	#14
IllusiveThoughts Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,311	curtlewis wrote: "seems to me roots are being alterd to 15% chance to break on dmg and removing the hostile action part" What hostile action can we take that DOESN'T do damage? Stifle? They have it do dmg to ensure roots break. Debuff? Same. the ever growing useless mez. I hope they remove the immunities to group mobs when the enchanter fix goes in . Hex dolls dont do dmg, thus if you wanted to you could stack up 2 of them, also roots unless you proc on the root cast in effect making it so they can be doubled up with out breaking another one. also nice side bonus if you duo with a illusionist or coercer they can perma stun/stifle the mob without breaking your root either way curt this is a nice change and frankly I dont think we should be complaining about it. Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on 05-10-2006 02:47 PM __________________ The wizards creed: __________________________________________________ _____________________________________ you will die, you will die often, you will die for no reason, you will die for a reason, you will die because soe wants you to die, did I mention you will die? Start getting used to it.