Bring back some form of RISK! - Page 3

Bagira · 03-07-2006, 02:05 PM

Maroger wrote:
Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.

Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different.

So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore.

Scottishla · 03-07-2006, 08:37 PM

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1. Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1. They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there. They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED! They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time! Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we? And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand.

With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement. I want that back!!!! I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times. woohoo....I want to FEAR death! I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat. I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding). That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy! I miss corpse runs!!!!

I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing. How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time.

Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake. Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head. Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group.

Tro · 03-07-2006, 08:46 PM

Phank wrote:
The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:

Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched..

Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.

Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..

There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..

Flor · 03-07-2006, 08:49 PM

Bagira wrote:
Maroger wrote:
Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1.
Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different.
So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore.

How does risk equate to intelligence? You got me there. You still have the same quests, new content all the time, crafting still takes some thought. Being a stupid player will still get you kicked out of groups, death penalty or no death penalty. How does tedium of shard recoveries make you a little Einstein?

I would still love to see a hardcore server implemented for all you hardcore players. I think this would solve the problem that many of the most vocal people have here on the boards. To really have a challenge, make it a PvP server with shard runs, 20% experience and equipment loss. 30 min of rez sickness for that extra kick in the butt. Take out the bird towers. Who needs them anyway? Double the price of mounts. Make the carpet quest obtainable at level 60 and make it a raid only quest. Oh, and take out all the solo stuff. Who needs that silly solo stuff anyway or make the experience so trivial that no one want to fight non heroic mobs. Bring back the heroic mobs so that you mostly need a full group for everything. And of course, slow down the leveling, both adventure and tradeskilling significantly. When you see that level 70 player running around, you know that player dedicated a significant chuck of his or her life towards that achievement of having the best pixels out there. /sarcasm off.

Sorry you all are so unhappy. I'm having a blast in EQ2 right now. Probably the most fun I've had in a game. But then again, I enjoyed WoW so that makes me an idiot too. Please check out the Vanguard forums. I think this is the game that many of you are looking for. Heck, the game sounds like they are looking back at elements of EQ1 for their inspiration. I think this may scratch the itch that many of you hardcore folks are looking for. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to play EQ2 and having fun, realizing that it is entertainment and I shouldn't have to dedicate years of my life to feel that sense of accomplishment.

Sorry to rant again but when people start equating tedium to intelligence, it gets on my nerves. There are vast numbers of "intelliegent" people playing that other game as well.

Edit: Must comment on the child of 7 playing the game for 3 months and achieving level 31. I'm sure there were other legends of that 5 year old, or 6 year old, or 7 year old playing EQ1 and achieving glory as well. This is an argument that I've seen to bash the "simplicy" of any game when trying to make a point. A computer savvy kid can play any video game and achieve success folks. Doesn't matter what the game. All it takes is time and some computer skills. I"m sure that there are 7 year olds that could kick your butt on any game.

Message Edited by Floria on 03-07-200610:56 AM

Tro · 03-07-2006, 08:50 PM

Scottishlass wrote:
Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1. Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1. They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there. They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED! They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time! Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we? And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand.
With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement. I want that back!!!! I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times. woohoo....I want to FEAR death! I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat. I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding). That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy! I miss corpse runs!!!!
I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing. How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time.
Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake. Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head. Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group.

That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..

Scottishla · 03-07-2006, 08:55 PM

You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:
Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched..
And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through. This isn't death risk. This is pure and simple boring monotony. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement.
Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.
And after you've gotten all the updates? You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement? Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK.
Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..
We do this all the time. If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point. If that named mob kills you, where is the risk? You revive, and try it again. No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about.
There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..
I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it. I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1. So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating.

Flor · 03-07-2006, 09:00 PM

Vanguard FTW Scottishlass................:smileywink:

Register and start checking out their forums. I think that beta invites will be going out soon. There are many discussions going on about making the game very challenging. I would voice your opinion and perhaps hearing from enough bored former EQ1 players (there seem to be many over there), the game may evolve into exactly what you are looking for.

Tro · 03-07-2006, 09:09 PM

Scottishlass wrote:

You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:
Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched..
And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through. This isn't death risk. This is pure and simple boring monotony. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement.
Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.
And after you've gotten all the updates? You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement? Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK.
Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..
We do this all the time. If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point. If that named mob kills you, where is the risk? You revive, and try it again. No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about.
There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..
I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it. I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1. So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating.

Then Don't MMO /shrug..

and to me.. taking a chance on dying is a risk whether you have to go get your corpse or revive.. there are different levels of risk and it isn't ALL based on shard recovery..that was MY POINT!!!

And I did say those were just a "Few" examples.. not ALL possible available risk taking situations.. enjoy!!

Scottishla · 03-07-2006, 09:10 PM

Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet! One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think? I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed.

Here is what I mean. I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me. It captivated me. It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon. For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else. I felt one with my main character. That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound.

In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge. No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing?

Message Edited by Scottishlass on 03-07-200608:11 AM

Scottishla · 03-07-2006, 09:17 PM

That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..

Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly. It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it. In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points. You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away). If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak). One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place. Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon. That was a cool necro feature.

Flor · 03-07-2006, 09:54 PM

Scottishlass wrote:
Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet! One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think? I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed.
Here is what I mean. I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me. It captivated me. It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon. For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else. I felt one with my main character. That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound.
In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge. No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing?
Message Edited by Scottishlass on 03-07-200608:11 AM

Good points here. But don't you think that we all are jaded by our first MMORPG experience? My husband and I played AC1 for about 3 years. The game was immersive and captivated us for years. I still recall loading up AC1 and seeing my first player running around and realizing that this was a live player who I could interact with. I remember being a little level 2 or something newbie and some other player inviting me to go to the Direlands and laughing at me as he ran off. I really loved AC1 and no other game has really captured that first MMORPG magic for me. I doubt that any other games will do so either. There were many of the "remember that time when we" for me in AC1. Athough there have been some of those moment for me in other games I've played, no game has rekindled that magic for me. I still love many of the MMORPGs that I've played but AC1 holds that special place in my heart. EQ2 btw had some of the "remember when" moments for me when I played it at launch. They were not positive "remember that time when we..." moments. Those negative moments for me where shard runs when the game first came out and I was stuck with three difficult to recover shards. There was no pulse racing moments for me. Just a deep sense of frustration and time spent looking at the clock wondering how long it would take me to recover my shard and when I could go to bed.

There is really no perfect answer. Your idea of fun may not be others idea of fun. We all play games for different reasons and what does it for me may not do it for me. I feel a bit sorry for the EQ1 players who have been so disappointed in EQ2. Similar what I felt when I played AC2--what a let down for me.

I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out in the future. I hope that games are diverse enough that they can appeal to all types of crowds. Although I so loved AC1, I could never go back to it. I burned out and my interests have moved on. But I my hubby and I still chat about AC1 and how much fun we had.

Tro · 03-07-2006, 10:12 PM

Scottishlass wrote:
That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..
Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly. It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it. In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points. You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away). If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak). One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place. Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon. That was a cool necro feature.

Yea I played EQ1 for 3 years.. Corpse dragging was pretty much a necessity.. and I also knew no on ethat did not hvae a hotkey setup..

Scottishla · 03-07-2006, 10:13 PM

You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made.

I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.

Ildarus · 03-07-2006, 11:18 PM

Scottishlass wrote:
You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made.
I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.

Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:

Tro · 03-07-2006, 11:56 PM

Ildarus wrote:
Scottishlass wrote:
You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made.
I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.
Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:

Actually it is a sequal.. Die hard 2, Halloween 2, Everquest 2.

It has the same name.. and we all know Sequals are never exactly like the original so how can you say it isn't a sequal?

Message Edited by Trook on 03-07-200610:57 AM

Scottishla · 03-08-2006, 12:27 AM

Ildarus wrote:
Scottishlass wrote:
You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made.
I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd.
Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink:

I never said that I expected the exact same game. What I said was that I expected the same "immersion/thrill level as its predecessor". As someone who never played the original, it is expected that you would not understand the "dumbing down" that has taken place. And really you have no way of making a comparison, if you never played the original.

I,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.

And I do still play EQ1.

Bagira · 03-08-2006, 12:29 AM

Ildarus wrote:

Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp

Nobody forces you to pick up your shard. You can leave it and it would disappear after a while. And XP debt is recovering automatically in several days. So there was a balance. Is you want to progress fast and you have time you could try to recover your shard. Otherwise it's still not a stop point of the game - your still can progress, but slower. Good deal between xp-oriented players and risk-oriented players.

Yes, it was harder to gain XP and next level. Yes, it took me a week to level up to 10. Last weekend I've done it in one day. But I used to respect my achievements and now I just don't care home many levels I gain – it’s so easy now.

Here is life example. If you are working hard you respect money you earn and wouldn't go and spend it all in some night club. But if you've got rich parents who are throwing money to you - you don't care about how to spend money, you care only how much can you get more. I think you've got my point here. EQ2 now is out rich rich parent throwing xp to us. I think this is not my lifestyle.

I would agree - I don't remember "bright" moments of this game anymore. Everything is plain and boring for me. Lucky I was playing EQ2 before updates to remember how good was it.

Bagira · 03-08-2006, 12:31 AM

Scottishlass wrote:
I,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.

I'm with you SMILEY . Probably I need to try EQ1 now.

Scottishla · 03-08-2006, 01:12 AM

Bagira wrote:
I'm with you . Probably I need to try EQ1 now.

LOL be ready for the long haul. Took me 5 years to attain level 66 (of course there was some time out to play alts). But enjoyed every challenging moment of it.

Flor · 03-08-2006, 02:16 AM

Scottishlass wrote:
II,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result.

This is an interesting statement and I would like to comment again. I too like a community and a virtual world experience. I think that many are finding that is EQ2 there is a great community, many family oriented or raiding guilds. And an abundance of things to do. I still don't see EQ2 as a trivial game as people would like to paint on these boards. You still have to put in quite a few hours to level. Even in our guild of pretty hardcore players who are ALWAYS on, people haven't maxed out. I think that EQ2 will keep their interest for a months or years to come. Many have been playing the game since launch and are having a super time. These are pretty serious players who played for years in EQ1. I could play 12 hours a day and probably never run out of things to do. I play much more than I should anyway and always have something to work on This is one reason why I left WoW. The game grew very stagnent for me. It was fun but shallow.

You can find a community and virtual world in whatever game you play, even games like WoW. I have to admit WoW drove me nuts with all the kiddos who played it but I found a pretty good guild and made some great online gaming buddies. In fact, we still keep in touch and are trying to decide on the next game that we will eventually move to together as a team.

I'm not sure if you are ever going to find a game like EQ1 where it took you years to reach max level. From what I read, EQ1 was tweaked a bit to make it easier as well, wasn't it? And lets be realistic, how long did it take to reach max level in EQ1 if you devoted yourself 24 x 7 to the game? Playing any game non stop and obsessively as some of us do will tend to get you to the max level quickly. I think that you are reflecting back on the glory days of a game that will never be reincarnated. Perhaps Vanguard will recapture some of the EQ1 magic and I hope it succeeds. I think that many EQ1 players will be checking it out. I would predict that some will be filled with disappointment since I suspect that no game will recapture that EQ1 magic. Nor the magic of our first MMORPG.

Scottishla · 03-08-2006, 02:34 AM

I don't want this game, or any other game to be just like EQ1. If that were the case, I would spend more time in EQ1 than I do here. EQ2 has the potential to even exceed the dream of EQ1, but it has yet to be attained.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game. The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge. Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time. But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge. I have a journal full of quests I need to complete. But that doesn't make them challenging. It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C. Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really.

I orignally posted on this thread because I agreed that there needs to be more risk involved. Without risk/challenge, you get very little feeling of accomplishment when completing a task, avoiding death, conquering a dungeon, etc. Without risk, it's just another way to "fill my time".

And I don't mean add more "raid only" content. That is a huge turn off for me. I do raid, on occasion with my guild, but for the most part I enjoy the small group commraderie (sp?) and would love to see more doable content for them w/decent rewards. I hate the fact that in order to obtain the better equipment, you HAVE to raid. So much for the little man, huh?

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-08-2006, 03:20 AM

Scottishlass wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game. The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge. Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time. But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge. I have a journal full of quests I need to complete. But that doesn't make them challenging. It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C. Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really.

thats exactly how I feel myself atm. I still enjoy the game but its not as exciting as it could be.

Anlari · 03-08-2006, 06:29 PM

Trook wrote:
Phank wrote:
The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard.

The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt *on.* Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt.

You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis:
Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched..
Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone.
Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process..
There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..

How is that risk? Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty. So no risk,

DerDrac · 03-08-2006, 08:34 PM

Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma, no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me.

How is that risk? Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty. So no risk,

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-08-2006, 09:16 PM

DerDrache wrote:
Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma, no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me.
I am sorry but all those words lead to that your definition of risk is simply "not being succesfull" or "wasting your time"
Risk should involve loosing something not just being denied success!
or to leave it to the guys from Saturday Night live:
Fighter: Hey dude, lets try one of the new instances of KoSHealer: No way, man! I tried some of KoS last weekend and guess what? I wasted my time 4 times in a row.Fighter: 4 times in a row? Dude, that must have hurt!Healer. Yeah, man. to think i farmed for half a day and than I get my watch handed by that &%$§"! named 4 times. and it wasn't only me. 4 complete group-wastes.Fighter: So what did you do then?Healer: Farmed greens for the rest of the weekend to make up for the lost time. i guess my char isn't for KoS yet. maybe next weekend when I am not under the constant threat of wasting time again, I cant afford more loss right now.
:smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy:

Flor · 03-08-2006, 10:06 PM

Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk. For you, losing something equates to risk. To me, wasting precious hours of my gaming time is risk. Don't tell me that there aren't consequences for the group when you are far into an instance and your group wipes. Even in a game like WoW, there were heart pounding moments when you had worked your way down to the bottom of the instance (spending hours in the process) and were at the final room and the battle was a close one. There definately was risk and consequences if you were the one who wiped the group. Or through your actions, you didn't do your best and the group failed. There is risk to every healer trying to keep the group alive. Or for the tank who is keeping the agro off the soft squishy types and healers. There is risk for the high DPS classes who are trying to not over nuke and stay alive. Everytime I'm in a group, there is that element of risk present.

Let's face it, even when there were shards present in the game, the consequence of a death was wasting time trying to get that shard back? At the very end, it all comes down to wasting time doesn't it? I think what we are debating is what defines risk for people in a MMORPG. Time for me is that precious commodity. Equipment loss and shard runs seems to be that element of risk for you. We all see the world in different ways.

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-08-2006, 10:20 PM

Floria wrote:
Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk.

Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one

lets put aside "ideas" for a moment and look at "definition" and according to http://www.Answers.com its like this:

risk (rĭsk)n.

The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger.
A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard
(the rest is based on financial terms)

wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:

Fennir · 03-08-2006, 10:37 PM

My time is worth a lot to me. Losing it may not mean much to some of you who have a lot to spare, but please don't speak for the rest of us.

Flor · 03-08-2006, 10:43 PM

Tradeskill_Addict wrote:
Floria wrote:
Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk.
Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one
lets put aside "ideas" for a moment and look at "definition" and according to http://www.Answers.com its like this:
risk (rĭsk)n.
The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger.
A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard
(the rest is based on financial terms)
wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy:

Don't be twit. I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you. Many of us who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument. Don't speak of things that you know little about . If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more. Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate. Academic enough for you?
Secondly, by your definition, a death in its current state in EQ2 meets all definitions of risk that you've outlined above. A death means suffering harm or loss. A loss for me is my time. Loss can be the failure of a mission. Anytime you adventure there is danger. Everytime you explore a new place, there is uncertainty. There is also financial risk in the game. Everytime you die, there is a durability hit to your equipment meaning it costs you money. So I argue that EQ2 in current state mets your definitions. I think what you are doing is trying to impose your idea of risk on me. As I said, we all have our definitions of what defines risk for us. It all boils down to opinion in the long run.

Tradeskill_Addict · 03-08-2006, 11:34 PM

Floria wrote:
Don't be twit. I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you. Many of us who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument. Don't speak of things that you know little about . If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more. Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate. Academic enough for you?

I attained the Rank of a Corporal in the Austrian army, thvm - but since we didn't invade a foreign country in the last decades and I never had to kill someone this wouldn't count much for you propbably.

and I happen to know what risk is in game terms or in RL. it always comes down to loosing something I allready earned.

For your kind the risk seems to start when you turn on the PC because it could make you "loose" time......thats pathetic.

03-07-2006, 02:05 PM	#61
Bagira Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	Maroger wrote: Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1. Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different. So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore.

03-07-2006, 08:37 PM	#62
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1. Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1. They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there. They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED! They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time! Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we? And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand. With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement. I want that back!!!! I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times. woohoo....I want to FEAR death! I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat. I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding). That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy! I miss corpse runs!!!! I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing. How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time. Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake. Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head. Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group. __________________

03-07-2006, 08:46 PM	#63
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	Phank wrote: The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt. You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis: Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone. Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process.. There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game..

03-07-2006, 08:49 PM	#64
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Bagira wrote: Maroger wrote: Then go an play EQ1 -- I never want that level of risk in a game I play -- it takes the fun out of the game and makes it like a job. Don't inflict your ideas on those of us who like EQ2 the way it is now. You can keep EQ1. Yea, you are bringing a GAME concept to the level of stupid point-and-click process. What is the whole idea of gaming? It's challenge. It's possibility to win or lose something. It's courage and interest. What's a point of running around and leveling up if there is no way to lower down? One way? Robot can do it better. Human is different. So, it's time for SOE to put a new lebel on the EQ2 package - "for 5 to 10 years children", because it doesn't requere any intelligence anymore. How does risk equate to intelligence? You got me there. You still have the same quests, new content all the time, crafting still takes some thought. Being a stupid player will still get you kicked out of groups, death penalty or no death penalty. How does tedium of shard recoveries make you a little Einstein? I would still love to see a hardcore server implemented for all you hardcore players. I think this would solve the problem that many of the most vocal people have here on the boards. To really have a challenge, make it a PvP server with shard runs, 20% experience and equipment loss. 30 min of rez sickness for that extra kick in the butt. Take out the bird towers. Who needs them anyway? Double the price of mounts. Make the carpet quest obtainable at level 60 and make it a raid only quest. Oh, and take out all the solo stuff. Who needs that silly solo stuff anyway or make the experience so trivial that no one want to fight non heroic mobs. Bring back the heroic mobs so that you mostly need a full group for everything. And of course, slow down the leveling, both adventure and tradeskilling significantly. When you see that level 70 player running around, you know that player dedicated a significant chuck of his or her life towards that achievement of having the best pixels out there. /sarcasm off. Sorry you all are so unhappy. I'm having a blast in EQ2 right now. Probably the most fun I've had in a game. But then again, I enjoyed WoW so that makes me an idiot too. Please check out the Vanguard forums. I think this is the game that many of you are looking for. Heck, the game sounds like they are looking back at elements of EQ1 for their inspiration. I think this may scratch the itch that many of you hardcore folks are looking for. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to play EQ2 and having fun, realizing that it is entertainment and I shouldn't have to dedicate years of my life to feel that sense of accomplishment. Sorry to rant again but when people start equating tedium to intelligence, it gets on my nerves. There are vast numbers of "intelliegent" people playing that other game as well. Edit: Must comment on the child of 7 playing the game for 3 months and achieving level 31. I'm sure there were other legends of that 5 year old, or 6 year old, or 7 year old playing EQ1 and achieving glory as well. This is an argument that I've seen to bash the "simplicy" of any game when trying to make a point. A computer savvy kid can play any video game and achieve success folks. Doesn't matter what the game. All it takes is time and some computer skills. I"m sure that there are 7 year olds that could kick your butt on any game. Message Edited by Floria on 03-07-200610:56 AM

03-07-2006, 08:50 PM	#65
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	Scottishlass wrote: Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed the toughness of EQ1. Problem with EQ2 is that too many people playing never played EQ1. They don't know the thrill of gaining a level when you worked SO hard to get there. They don't understand the literal "hands shaking" excitement to get away from a bad pull, because dying just might 'unding you' or at the very least require an extensive corpse run NAKED! They don't understand the concept that it might take a good 2 weeks to 2 months to level ONE time! Some call that boring, but by God, we had fun didn't we? And what's more, we KNEW the zones of EQ1 like the back of our hand. With EQ1, the risk was so great that at times it was literally heart pumping, hands shaking excitement. I want that back!!!! I don't want to repair my stuff after I die 10 times. woohoo....I want to FEAR death! I'm bored silly....grind, repair, grind, repair, rinse, lather repeat. I miss saying, "2 more of those mobs will secure my ding!" (for non-EQ1ers, meaning that if I got killed and got a 98% rez from a cleric I would retain my newly earned level, not unding). That was risk. That was fun! That was strategy! I miss corpse runs!!!! I know of a 7 year old girl who plays EQ2 casually and has achieved level 31 in about 3 months of playing. How immersive, strategic or risky is it, when a mere child can advance so far in such a short period of time. Oh and while we're on this subject, bring back corpse dragging, for God's sake. Even in EQ2, sometimes you die too close to the spawns, the healer makes it out alive, but a rez is not an option because the healer can't rez you with mobs standing on your head. Ya gotta revive...And don't say that's risk, because there is no risk there, just plain old boredom running back to the group. That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature..

03-07-2006, 08:55 PM	#66
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis: Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through. This isn't death risk. This is pure and simple boring monotony. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement. Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone. And after you've gotten all the updates? You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement? Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK. Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process.. We do this all the time. If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point. If that named mob kills you, where is the risk? You revive, and try it again. No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about. There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game.. I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it. I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1. So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating. __________________

03-07-2006, 09:00 PM	#67
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Vanguard FTW Scottishlass................:smileywink: Register and start checking out their forums. I think that beta invites will be going out soon. There are many discussions going on about making the game very challenging. I would voice your opinion and perhaps hearing from enough bored former EQ1 players (there seem to be many over there), the game may evolve into exactly what you are looking for.

03-07-2006, 09:09 PM	#68
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	Scottishlass wrote: You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis: Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. And then what? Quite frankly, I ran this the first time through. This isn't death risk. This is pure and simple boring monotony. I can't imagine getting any enjoyment doing this over and over again, simply to SIMULATE some excitement. Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone. And after you've gotten all the updates? You just keep doing this, again, to simulate excitement? Again, if you die on these runs, who cares...there IS NO RISK. Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process.. We do this all the time. If at first you don't succeed.... However, you're missing the point. If that named mob kills you, where is the risk? You revive, and try it again. No corpse run, no shard, not penalty (very very minute). There may be excitement in killing the named or figuring out how to, but that is completely different from the risk I'm talking about. There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game.. I would gladly try another game, but quite frankly there are none out at the moment worth it. I have no interest in DDO as I don't like Guild Wars style play and WoW holds no interest whatsoever for me and I can no longer advance my characters in EQ1. So, either I don't MMO or I'm stuck here rinsing, lathering and repeating. Then Don't MMO /shrug.. and to me.. taking a chance on dying is a risk whether you have to go get your corpse or revive.. there are different levels of risk and it isn't ALL based on shard recovery..that was MY POINT!!! And I did say those were just a "Few" examples.. not ALL possible available risk taking situations.. enjoy!!

03-07-2006, 09:10 PM	#69
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet! One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think? I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed. Here is what I mean. I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me. It captivated me. It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon. For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else. I felt one with my main character. That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound. In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge. No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing? Message Edited by Scottishlass on 03-07-200608:11 AM __________________

03-07-2006, 09:17 PM	#70
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature.. Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly. It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it. In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points. You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away). If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak). One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place. Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon. That was a cool necro feature. __________________

03-07-2006, 09:54 PM	#71
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Scottishlass wrote: Oh I have checked out Vanguard...Problem is, it's not out yet! One must stop to ponder why there are so many disgruntled EQ1ers over there, don't you think? I came to EQ2 expecting the same quality of play and immersion I found for 5 years in EQ1 and have been sadly disappointed. Here is what I mean. I started playing EQ1 and yes it was hard, very hard. Very steep learning curve. But it immersed me. It captivated me. It made it mean something when you could finally take that named or hold your own in a dungeon. For 5 years, I never once considered another game and did not play anything else. I felt one with my main character. That character and I had survived and conquered through countless struggles and had many heroic tales of victory and defeat to expound. In EQ2, there are no, "Remember that time when we..." moments. There is no deep immersion and IMHO that directly relates to the fact that there is no real challenge. No real risk.....Who cares about a death story, if you dying means nothing? Message Edited by Scottishlass on 03-07-200608:11 AM Good points here. But don't you think that we all are jaded by our first MMORPG experience? My husband and I played AC1 for about 3 years. The game was immersive and captivated us for years. I still recall loading up AC1 and seeing my first player running around and realizing that this was a live player who I could interact with. I remember being a little level 2 or something newbie and some other player inviting me to go to the Direlands and laughing at me as he ran off. I really loved AC1 and no other game has really captured that first MMORPG magic for me. I doubt that any other games will do so either. There were many of the "remember that time when we" for me in AC1. Athough there have been some of those moment for me in other games I've played, no game has rekindled that magic for me. I still love many of the MMORPGs that I've played but AC1 holds that special place in my heart. EQ2 btw had some of the "remember when" moments for me when I played it at launch. They were not positive "remember that time when we..." moments. Those negative moments for me where shard runs when the game first came out and I was stuck with three difficult to recover shards. There was no pulse racing moments for me. Just a deep sense of frustration and time spent looking at the clock wondering how long it would take me to recover my shard and when I could go to bed. There is really no perfect answer. Your idea of fun may not be others idea of fun. We all play games for different reasons and what does it for me may not do it for me. I feel a bit sorry for the EQ1 players who have been so disappointed in EQ2. Similar what I felt when I played AC2--what a let down for me. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out in the future. I hope that games are diverse enough that they can appeal to all types of crowds. Although I so loved AC1, I could never go back to it. I burned out and my interests have moved on. But I my hubby and I still chat about AC1 and how much fun we had.

03-07-2006, 10:12 PM	#72
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	Scottishlass wrote: That would rock!!! Forgot all about corpse dragging.. You say "Bring it back".. I didn't realize it was once in the game.. Oh well yea I would love to see that feature.. Corpse dragging was never in EQ2, sadly. It was a feature used so often in EQ1 that I don't know a single person who did not have a hot key set up for it. In EQ1, you didn't really have revive points. You had "bind points" which only certain classes could use (melee classes had to be bound in a city and those were often far far away). If your party died, say deep in a dungeon, you would figure out the best strategy to get the corpses (rogues rocked at this with their sneak). One person would drag the corpses back to the zone in of the dungeon, so the cleric could resurrect them in a safe place. Also, necros could summon corpses from deep in a dungeon. That was a cool necro feature. Yea I played EQ1 for 3 years.. Corpse dragging was pretty much a necessity.. and I also knew no on ethat did not hvae a hotkey setup..

03-07-2006, 10:13 PM	#73
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made. I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd. __________________

03-07-2006, 11:18 PM	#74
Ildarus Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 221	Scottishlass wrote: You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made. I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd. Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink: __________________ Lord Sarron-Level 80 Swashbuckler Serpaw-Level 74 Berserker Simbarth-Level 22 Shadowknight/76 Alchemist

03-07-2006, 11:56 PM	#75
Tro General Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 698	Ildarus wrote: Scottishlass wrote: You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made. I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd. Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink: Actually it is a sequal.. Die hard 2, Halloween 2, Everquest 2. It has the same name.. and we all know Sequals are never exactly like the original so how can you say it isn't a sequal? Message Edited by Trook on 03-07-200610:57 AM

03-08-2006, 12:27 AM	#76
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Ildarus wrote: Scottishlass wrote: You are right, nothing will ever compare to my experiences in EQ1. However, I did, mistakenly, assume that a game that appears to be a "sequel" to my beloved EQ1 and made by the same people, would contain the same immersion/thrill level as it predecessor. That is one assumption I should have never made. I understand it's a different game. But it feels so "dumbed down", that I have to agree with the folks who post that it is becoming a game for children, or for the "me" crowd. Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp :smileywink: I never said that I expected the exact same game. What I said was that I expected the same "immersion/thrill level as its predecessor". As someone who never played the original, it is expected that you would not understand the "dumbing down" that has taken place. And really you have no way of making a comparison, if you never played the original. I,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result. And I do still play EQ1. __________________

03-08-2006, 12:29 AM	#77
Bagira Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	Ildarus wrote: Go back to EQ1 then. I personally have fun with this game as most people do. The game you are describing the majority would not find fun and if you do find it fun go back to it. From what I understand it is still there. See I never played EQ1 and I find excitement in this game as most people do and I am not a 7 year old. I am an adult that is married with kids and don't want to waste 3 hours of my gaming day getting back to my corpse or working my tail of to finally make a level and then die and drop back a level. See it is all about perspective and this is not EQ1. From what I saw it was never touted to be a sequal to EQ1, that is all your imagination. Just like it was everyones imagination that bonus xp meant double xp Nobody forces you to pick up your shard. You can leave it and it would disappear after a while. And XP debt is recovering automatically in several days. So there was a balance. Is you want to progress fast and you have time you could try to recover your shard. Otherwise it's still not a stop point of the game - your still can progress, but slower. Good deal between xp-oriented players and risk-oriented players. Yes, it was harder to gain XP and next level. Yes, it took me a week to level up to 10. Last weekend I've done it in one day. But I used to respect my achievements and now I just don't care home many levels I gain – it’s so easy now. Here is life example. If you are working hard you respect money you earn and wouldn't go and spend it all in some night club. But if you've got rich parents who are throwing money to you - you don't care about how to spend money, you care only how much can you get more. I think you've got my point here. EQ2 now is out rich rich parent throwing xp to us. I think this is not my lifestyle. I would agree - I don't remember "bright" moments of this game anymore. Everything is plain and boring for me. Lucky I was playing EQ2 before updates to remember how good was it.

03-08-2006, 12:31 AM	#78
Bagira Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 13	Scottishlass wrote: I,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result. I'm with you . Probably I need to try EQ1 now.

03-08-2006, 01:12 AM	#79
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Bagira wrote: I'm with you . Probably I need to try EQ1 now. LOL be ready for the long haul. Took me 5 years to attain level 66 (of course there was some time out to play alts). But enjoyed every challenging moment of it. __________________

03-08-2006, 02:16 AM	#80
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Scottishlass wrote: II,too, am an adult, married with kids. The difference between the two is really rather simple. EQ1 was a total experience that peaked my interest (and still does except for the dated graphics) for 5 years. EQ2 is a game I play, that loses my interest every couple of months. And that is great for lots of folks, who simply like to play a game. But, for some people, community and total virtual world experience, is what an MMO is about. Not about how fast I can max out on levels nor how much loot I can accumulate with minimal effort. For some people an MMO is more about the journey than the end result. This is an interesting statement and I would like to comment again. I too like a community and a virtual world experience. I think that many are finding that is EQ2 there is a great community, many family oriented or raiding guilds. And an abundance of things to do. I still don't see EQ2 as a trivial game as people would like to paint on these boards. You still have to put in quite a few hours to level. Even in our guild of pretty hardcore players who are ALWAYS on, people haven't maxed out. I think that EQ2 will keep their interest for a months or years to come. Many have been playing the game since launch and are having a super time. These are pretty serious players who played for years in EQ1. I could play 12 hours a day and probably never run out of things to do. I play much more than I should anyway and always have something to work on This is one reason why I left WoW. The game grew very stagnent for me. It was fun but shallow. You can find a community and virtual world in whatever game you play, even games like WoW. I have to admit WoW drove me nuts with all the kiddos who played it but I found a pretty good guild and made some great online gaming buddies. In fact, we still keep in touch and are trying to decide on the next game that we will eventually move to together as a team. I'm not sure if you are ever going to find a game like EQ1 where it took you years to reach max level. From what I read, EQ1 was tweaked a bit to make it easier as well, wasn't it? And lets be realistic, how long did it take to reach max level in EQ1 if you devoted yourself 24 x 7 to the game? Playing any game non stop and obsessively as some of us do will tend to get you to the max level quickly. I think that you are reflecting back on the glory days of a game that will never be reincarnated. Perhaps Vanguard will recapture some of the EQ1 magic and I hope it succeeds. I think that many EQ1 players will be checking it out. I would predict that some will be filled with disappointment since I suspect that no game will recapture that EQ1 magic. Nor the magic of our first MMORPG.

03-08-2006, 02:34 AM	#81
Scottishla General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	I don't want this game, or any other game to be just like EQ1. If that were the case, I would spend more time in EQ1 than I do here. EQ2 has the potential to even exceed the dream of EQ1, but it has yet to be attained. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game. The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge. Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time. But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge. I have a journal full of quests I need to complete. But that doesn't make them challenging. It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C. Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really. I orignally posted on this thread because I agreed that there needs to be more risk involved. Without risk/challenge, you get very little feeling of accomplishment when completing a task, avoiding death, conquering a dungeon, etc. Without risk, it's just another way to "fill my time". And I don't mean add more "raid only" content. That is a huge turn off for me. I do raid, on occasion with my guild, but for the most part I enjoy the small group commraderie (sp?) and would love to see more doable content for them w/decent rewards. I hate the fact that in order to obtain the better equipment, you HAVE to raid. So much for the little man, huh? __________________

03-08-2006, 03:20 AM	#82
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	Scottishlass wrote: Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy this game. The one thing that is the biggest disappointment (or turn off) is the total lack of risk/challenge. Sure, I can log on at any time and find plenty of things to fill my time. But filling my time, is not the same as risk/challenge. I have a journal full of quests I need to complete. But that doesn't make them challenging. It just means I could spend my day running from point A to point B killing mob X then running to point C. Yes, my time is filled and I can do those things, but are they challenging or risky or offer any sort of excitement? Not really. thats exactly how I feel myself atm. I still enjoy the game but its not as exciting as it could be. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink:

03-08-2006, 06:29 PM	#83
Anlari Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 107	Trook wrote: Phank wrote: The game needs risk. Bottom line. Removing spirit shards was the last form of risk that players really had to lose anything, that being time to recover their shard. The group debt idea was really strong. However it was implemented badly at first. Here is how you fix it. Make it a group option. If the group feels confident about how they work as a team, they can select to turn Group debt on. Their reward is a bonus exp, say 4%. Their penalty is group debt. You want risk? here is an example of what My Wife (37 Warlock) and I (37 Conjuror) do on a routine basis: Try the Teleporter access run on Lavastorm. I died once, got rez and finished the run.. My wife didnt die beacuse I used my pet to aggro the two see invis dragons guarding the last tunnel just before the giants/Sol eye entrance. When the pet got their attention, we ran up the tunnel.. Figured I could get far enough ahead but I was wrong. I got as far as the exit of the tunnel.. then splat.. She went untouched.. Also, try the update experience runs through much higher level zones. We do stuff like that when our Vitality is gone. Try figuring out a strat to kill that named mob.. We did this several times (And still do) and sometimes we get the job done be it we do die alot in the process.. There are just a few examples "Risk" in the game.. If you are not happy with the current level of risk in this game I suggest you try another game.. How is that risk? Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty. So no risk, __________________

03-08-2006, 08:34 PM	#84
DerDrac General Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Unrest Posts: 75	Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma, no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me. How is that risk? Worse thing that happens is you die and have no real penalty. So no risk,

03-08-2006, 09:16 PM	#85
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	DerDrache wrote: Its not really, however, as an example of current risk, since sanctum has been instancing this zone is no longer devoid of all mobs when you enter, esp if you go into a new instance of it. Your group fights through the 100s of mobs in rooms just to get down to pools, or trials, or the diviners room even. Once down there, you all wipe, and have to start all over again. Id say a crawl like that is risk, you want to stay alive / have someone with FD ready so you dont wipe and have to start over since it takes almost an hour to clear the rooms leading up to one of the aforementioned rooms. Sure you can rush through and try invis and other things but all in all its a hassle to get back down to the "big" mobs. The risk inlies with staying alive while being at a location that is not easily accessable. Id say thats good for now, even with the fact that my bruiser taunts suck and if im ma, no one else has fd, id better hold aggro or at least not die b/c if the group wipes we start all over. Also, it sucks having these mobs plow through the paper armor members of the group in 2 seconds, which isnt enough time to quickly target and hit a taunt or even rescue when its up sometimes. Can't even count the number of times the necro died last time, usually its the conjuerer who gets eaten after the pet goes right after the stupid pet steals aggro from me. I am sorry but all those words lead to that your definition of risk is simply "not being succesfull" or "wasting your time" Risk should involve loosing something not just being denied success! or to leave it to the guys from Saturday Night live: Fighter: Hey dude, lets try one of the new instances of KoSHealer: No way, man! I tried some of KoS last weekend and guess what? I wasted my time 4 times in a row.Fighter: 4 times in a row? Dude, that must have hurt!Healer. Yeah, man. to think i farmed for half a day and than I get my watch handed by that &%$§"! named 4 times. and it wasn't only me. 4 complete group-wastes.Fighter: So what did you do then?Healer: Farmed greens for the rest of the weekend to make up for the lost time. i guess my char isn't for KoS yet. maybe next weekend when I am not under the constant threat of wasting time again, I cant afford more loss right now. :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy: :smileyvery-happy: __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink:

03-08-2006, 10:06 PM	#86
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk. For you, losing something equates to risk. To me, wasting precious hours of my gaming time is risk. Don't tell me that there aren't consequences for the group when you are far into an instance and your group wipes. Even in a game like WoW, there were heart pounding moments when you had worked your way down to the bottom of the instance (spending hours in the process) and were at the final room and the battle was a close one. There definately was risk and consequences if you were the one who wiped the group. Or through your actions, you didn't do your best and the group failed. There is risk to every healer trying to keep the group alive. Or for the tank who is keeping the agro off the soft squishy types and healers. There is risk for the high DPS classes who are trying to not over nuke and stay alive. Everytime I'm in a group, there is that element of risk present. Let's face it, even when there were shards present in the game, the consequence of a death was wasting time trying to get that shard back? At the very end, it all comes down to wasting time doesn't it? I think what we are debating is what defines risk for people in a MMORPG. Time for me is that precious commodity. Equipment loss and shard runs seems to be that element of risk for you. We all see the world in different ways.

03-08-2006, 10:20 PM	#87
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	Floria wrote: Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk. Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one lets put aside "ideas" for a moment and look at "definition" and according to http://www.Answers.com its like this: risk (rĭsk)n. The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger. A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard (the rest is based on financial terms) wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy: __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink:

03-08-2006, 10:37 PM	#88
Fennir Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 760	My time is worth a lot to me. Losing it may not mean much to some of you who have a lot to spare, but please don't speak for the rest of us. __________________ " I constanly read these forums and seeing your stupid sig starting too get to me" - finedork

03-08-2006, 10:43 PM	#89
Flor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 146	Tradeskill_Addict wrote: Floria wrote: Tradeskill-addict, I think we all have different ideas of risk. Sorry bu no, we just have a different idea of how we can sell our pov as a liable one lets put aside "ideas" for a moment and look at "definition" and according to http://www.Answers.com its like this: risk (rĭsk)n. The possibility of suffering harm or loss; danger. A factor, thing, element, or course involving uncertain danger; a hazard (the rest is based on financial terms) wasting your precious time is not enjoyable but certailnly no risk. and if that above too academic for you - ask one of the posters whos in the army about their definition of risk :smileyvery-happy: Don't be twit. I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you. Many of us who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument. Don't speak of things that you know little about . If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more. Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate. Academic enough for you? Secondly, by your definition, a death in its current state in EQ2 meets all definitions of risk that you've outlined above. A death means suffering harm or loss. A loss for me is my time. Loss can be the failure of a mission. Anytime you adventure there is danger. Everytime you explore a new place, there is uncertainty. There is also financial risk in the game. Everytime you die, there is a durability hit to your equipment meaning it costs you money. So I argue that EQ2 in current state mets your definitions. I think what you are doing is trying to impose your idea of risk on me. As I said, we all have our definitions of what defines risk for us. It all boils down to opinion in the long run.

03-08-2006, 11:34 PM	#90
Tradeskill_Addict Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 365	Floria wrote: Don't be twit. I was trying to be civil but since you brought real life into this, let me comment for you. Many of us who play this game are veterans so don't pull that shiiit with me to try to validate your argument. Don't speak of things that you know little about . If you have worn a uniform, you can come back and discuss risk a bit more. Meanwhile, I would suggest not bringing up military or lack of military experience into the debate. Academic enough for you? I attained the Rank of a Corporal in the Austrian army, thvm - but since we didn't invade a foreign country in the last decades and I never had to kill someone this wouldn't count much for you propbably. and I happen to know what risk is in game terms or in RL. it always comes down to loosing something I allready earned. For your kind the risk seems to start when you turn on the PC because it could make you "loose" time......thats pathetic. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- native german speaker so don't judge my posts by my grammar or spelling - thank you very much :smileywink: