Utility for Guardians

[Manyak]

Im not a guard, but im defiantely heated with this nerf. Guards HAVE become useless. Theres a post in this forum by SixMains that disproves their ability to tank as well as anyone else, where i wrote a long post about this too...so if u wanna read it feel free cuz i dont feel like rewriting everyhing again

 

And as far as the group buff value? If the tank (even if not a guardian) is holding aggro like he should be, then theres no reason for any of these buffs. No reason to intercept damage, no reason to increase DPS (since in raids the MT group doesnt do DPS anyway), and no reason to self-buff anything. Oh joy, guards can increase a groups HP by 500. Thats what zerkers are for. Well, at least they WERE for that before DoF.

 

Guards are now useless. Havign a guard in a raid will not help at all, no matter WHAT he does. If he protecting the group with guardian sphere, and a big AoE hits, then hes dead, and by the time hes rezzed and recasts buffs, the AoE will hit again, and the entire group will be dead anyway. NONE of these buffs have absolutely ANY usefulness in combat situations. None at all. Sure the protection buffs do something....cant argue with that. But there is never a case where they can be used effectively.

 

-----------------

Manyak - 52 Illusionist

[LordIronfist]

Just because he ain't saying the things u wanna hear he haven't been thinking? Wow, that's giving Moorgard lotsa credit!

 

This is what I think happened:

 

The designers/programmers have thought things thru preDof over and over and come up with something like this: Guardians are too powerful sending the others to the sideline.

What can be done about that when DoF is launched?

Of course changes has to be done (read nerf if u want to here). I read striving to make all tanks almost equals. The differences being how the job is done, not by whom who does it. It will surely be a painful transition for the Guardians, but necessary for the bigger picture. (all tanks wanna take part).

Do we wanna go thru with this knowing that Guardian community will send us tons and tons with posts saying how broken they have become?

Answer: Yes. (obviously!)

SOE can't stick with things as they are when cold facts remain. Guardians where overpowered! (U can say all u want here that Guardians have no utilities like others had, the description said something about Guardians being the most defensive,  yadda yadda .....) 

Facts remains that other tank classes were reduced to buff-bots. The very same thing you yourselves don't want to become.

 

I can't say I was sorry when I read Moorgards post. He was merely sticking to their plan ironing out the huge differences from preDof to make sure all have a chance to contribute.

 

Face it! Guardians overpowered days are over, start adapting to the new gameplay and go from there.

 

//Lord Ironfist

 

PS No, I'm NOT playing monk/bruiser!!!! DS

 

 

Message Edited by LordIronfist on 09-24-2005 02:21 PM

[TanRaistlyn]

Gotta love the non guards coming in and telling guardians that they shouldnt let SOE know they made this class unfun and useless.  We all know how well informed THEY are on the subject.  Never ceases to amaze me on how many people will speak continuously, even tho they are completely ignorant to the situation.

Does Lordironfist know anything about guardians Post Nerf??...apparently not, does that stop him from posting??? apparently not.  Do other classes come in here, and post about a subject they know nothing about??  Looks that way.

Perhaps Lordironfist you should stick to posting about something you know at least a small bit about then you wouldnt look like such and "ignorant" person.

There are countless facts and numbers that show how the plate classes are gimped at the moment, and even most Monks/Bruisers see it, but Im sure YOU know better then all the hard numbers produced.  The game stands now at a point where People are leaving in droves, due to the problems with Plate classes and other bugs that came out with the expansion.  Every server, EVERY single server is running on "light" right now, so you can keep talking about how the game was fixed by LU13, and you can even keep saying it as servers start to combine, and guilds start to break up, and more and more people leave...because you are OBVIOUSLY more informed on this subject as all the Guardians level 50+ posting intelligent responses trying to help SOE keep the game alive.

 

Covenant

[Burningho]

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LordIronfist wrote:

 

Face it! Guardians overpowered days are over, start adapting to the new gameplay and go from there.

 

---

That is exactly what most of us guardians are trying to do.  The fact remains that we are now no better than any other fighter class at tanking, but have less dps and far far far less utility.  That is not balance.  We are not asking to be overpowered, we are asking to be equal and to be unique in some way just like everyone else.

[Gladesman]

So. I can conclude that SK's are also way overpowered because they are the only ones that could life-tap?

 

That is sidelining me!! Unfair!! Unfair I tell you..

 

Tanking is a guardians job, it was and is our ONLY ability. Since when does every fighter have to be a good tank? When did this concept became the truth? Well, it did with DoF and this means that the guardians function is being shared with others.

 

Your reasoning doesn't hold any ground: So what if we were the best tanks (and not by such a landslide that everybody claims it was: a solo guardian and a solo zerker and a pally were quite close in stats. The buffs from others and reactives made guardians powerful tanks more than our own stats and buffs.)? You were the best (and only) life-tapper, pally's have the best heals out of all fighters, brawlers have the best DPS and zerkers were similar to guards + their berserk line (extra DPS).

 

I realise that tanking is all that makes your world spin and you feel you've been done horribly wrong because you've never been MT on a raid, but ALL fighters had quite decent tanking skills already and as I chose a warrior and then a guardian it was my darn perogative to be the best of the best when it came to tanking - simply because that was all I could and can do. My class was designed to be nothing BUT a tank. And yes, we were EXCELLENT and UNIQUE at it, just like you are EXCELLENT and UNIQUE in other abilities.

 

Tanking is NOT all there is to this game, it's one of many many things that needs to be done. Healing and DPS-ing and utility are just as much a part of the game as tanking is and until people like you will get that we will still be in this superstupid argument. I chose a guardian, I chose a REAL tank. You chose a SK: a fighter with above average tanking skills and special abilities. How is it fair that you would be just as good as me at my class defining ability? Why would you expect this? I just don't get it..

 

That other people praise or credit the tank doesn't mean that other classes do not have their own specific valuable traits and characteristics. Think about it. What defined my class is now something that all other fighters have as well and I was in no way compensated for losing my ONLY corner of the market.

 

I can handle not being the only tank anymore (not that we ever were as zerkers and crusaders were pretty good as well), but I can't handle people like you telling me I should not care about the fact that my class has been demolished and that my class was so overpowered. We were powerful in tanking and rightfully so: we were meant to be the best tanks out there when the game was released!!

 

Maybe I am the only guardian that can accept the new tanking ideas brought to the table by SOE; I believe there's still some fixing to do, because as of right now the guard is tanking below par. But with my acceptance I also expect SOE to make my class desirable to play and group with again by giving us the DPS and utility that now make people favour the other fighters over us.

Message Edited by Gladesman on 09-24-2005 11:30 PM

[sliderhouserules]

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TunaBoo wrote:

... Guardians are meant to be maintanks....

---

No they're not, FIGHTERS are meant to be main tanks. Get off your high horse.

[sliderhouserules]

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Gladesman wrote:...

Tanking is a guardians job, it was and is our ONLY ability. Since when does every fighter have to be a good tank? When did this concept became the truth? ...

I chose a guardian, I chose a REAL tank. ... How is it fair that you would be just as good as me at my class defining ability? Why would you expect this? I just don't get it..

...

We were powerful in tanking and rightfully so: we were meant to be the best tanks out there when the game was released!!

...

---

This crap honestly just floors me... You have heard of archetypes, right? Don't make me quote you a definition or link all the posts from devs stating the archetype philosophy. I know you're not that stupid. I'm not in here trolling because I think Guardians are fine where they're at. My friend has a 50 guard that he doesn't have much fun playing anymore, and I have some sympathy for that. Many of you have made the same points. But come on, this thread is rife with this kind of propaganda bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I linked to this thread from the Dev Tracker, came in here to read with an open mind, even sympathy for the Guardians' position; but now I'm leaving with the very strong impression that Guardians are whiny, elitist and stuck in an EQ1 tune-the-game-for-raids kind of mentality. That kind of mentality is exactly why I left EQ1 *years* ago. I find myself agreeing with the idea that maybe Guardians *do* need to be bottom of the heap for a while. Wake the hell up guys and gals.

[Gladesman]

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sliderhouserules wrote:

Wake the hell up guys and gals.

---

If you would've read any of my other posts on this forum you would realise that the post you're quoting from is nothing more than a direct response to a non-constructive bite in the wrong direction. In all my other posts I've pleaded for other things like DPS and utlity than just to be the best tank standing on a platform that nodboy could touch - I've never argued that we should go back to the old situation and I'm not bitter just because I am not the preferred tank anymore..

 

I've never considered myself to be the ONLY tank. Far from it actually. But what I am protesting against is the fact that guardians used to be the best tanks and this trait made them desirable to group and play with. It gave us a much needed advantage over the other fighters as they all could tank reasonably well (brawlers less than plate-tanks, but with their DPS it balanced out quite well imho) AND had other skills that were and are still considered desirable for solo as well as normal group content. Now that all the other fighter types have had their tank abilities increased our characteristic and sole ability (tanking) has become common thus making the guardian the least favourable choice for a group and the least effective solo-er. (The fact that we're now the "worst" tank of all the fighters, is a completely different discussion because that's just a bug that will be fixed imho)

 

I am absolutely fine with a bruiser or a sk tanking Darathar, really. I have accepted this revamp and redirection for the fighter classes, I have just not accepted the fact that the guardian class has been made redundant. That's all. Look at my post and read it again: I'm just stating the facts as they were pre-revamp.. whether you liked it or not, it was just the way it was and how it was played out by SOE: I gave up DPS and utility to be able to tank like I did. Did brawlers and crusaders give up most of their DPS/utility to be able to tank similar to me now? You guessed it: no. 

 

Just because this pre-revamp situation was never the intention of SOE doesn't make it right to now just make the class that they first made "uber-tank" the least useful tank/fighter of them all? (and as it stands now, least useful and least interesting class of the game.. there's nothing a guardian can contribute that another fighter can not (except for a couple of measly buffs that nobody is interested in)).

 

I wonder when YOU will wake up and see that tanking is NOT all it's hyped up to be: it was merely the only thing a guardian was best at. Other than tanking we were and are completely useless.  It baffles me that so many people find tanking apparently more important than anything else and feel as if they're not contributing anything if they do not tank.  Bashing guardians because they were the best tanks pre-revamp is just stupid if you'd know what else a guardian contributes to the game in total: NOTHING. I'm sorry, I can't put it anymore simplistic than that.

[blueduckie]

Slider have you heard of archtype system fool? What is a scouts main role. DPS. They dont all dps equal. So you think all fighters need to be equal because then youll feel useless when it isnt true. Bards have horrible flat out horrible dps. However they contribute to a group so much. Rogues dont do as much dmg as predators but they have good uses to. Mages same way. They screwed warlocks unless doing group mobs but still. Ive seen warlock parsing 2400 dps on a group of 4 dmg. Wasnt single killed either. Dies fast but that is what they can do on groups of 4. So here you are claiming fighters need to. Reactivs in healing own regens big time on raids and with defense nerf. Owns wards to IMO with aggro you lose from wards. Reactives are the most stable healing. So i dont see where all is fair etc in main roles. But yopur telling me your floor'd if we arnt? Thats stupid ridiculous and not what the game has done at all with other classes. So cry me a river IMO SOE should fix this.

[Poochymama]

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Hammarus wrote:

THE fundamental problem is this!  W.T.F. do you need so many tanks for?  I mean really, what for?  What do they contribute?  What does one extra tank add to a group that a dps, utility, or healer class doesn't, better yet, to a raid. 

One mob=(one tank/aggro controller+healing+dps)

Ok maybe two tanks in those rare raid situations where you need one to peel off the adds. 

 I mean come-on, just look at the composition of any botter crew and ask yourself; why does this group consist of one tank, one healer, and 4 mage classes, (scouts are dps/utility, but not included in bot crews because they are complex characters and are hard to play as bots )?

If SOE can find an answer to this issue, then I feel all tank classes can find a position on the battlefield.

Message Edited by Hammarus on 09-23-2005 11:32 AM

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Woot!!!! You are so right

[Poochymama]

BTW that was a great post Moorgard.

Guardians have about the best group utility of all the fighters atm.

[Shizzirri]

 

As for our level 50 "utility spell" since your a developer of this game can you do me a favor and rename that spell suicide please because that's what it is, even in the master version of the buff, how many of the guardians here regularly use this spell?  I've used it 3 times before the revamp once after, the three times I used it before the revamp I died because it wasn't mitigated to the guardian's stats, the time after I used it in an effort to save a mage and guess what it didn't work, what saved him ironically was a taunt not our "utility."  I understand guardians are there to help the defensive capabilities of a group, but common guardian sphere basically sets us up so we're "taking one for the team" from my point of view.  Imo this is the most useless spell we guardians get in the game.  And compared to the stuff I see that the other classes have to offer (ie despoiling mist and savage blows) I'd say they got it quite good right now.

As for call of defense here's a question for you?  Why is the level 38 version (adept 3 / 12 defense) stronger then the 52 version which is call of defense?  I believe around 14, btw the apprentice 2 version of this spell gives only 11.1, now if defense was useful, which it isn't now, I'd be complaining more but I'm going to be nice.

Here's some ideas you might consider...

A mitigation buff that lasts longer than 30 seconds, I mean why not we're mitigation tanks, we have a defensive stance yes, but since our job seems to be that of a tank who can help the defensive capabilities of a party you'd think this would be there...

A ranged attack for pulling, yes we're not rangers but we can use bows, throwing daggers, axes, etc.  I don't get why we can use all the and not have some kind of silly ranged attack we can use to pull with (we lost anchor).

From my point of view I protect my group by holding aggro and taking/mitigating damage, not by casting spells and "utility" I figure if I lose aggro either I am not fit to tank or the person I lost it to screwed up, and if this is something that is a constant problem I say why bother using the "utility of protecting the group" I figure they deserve to die, why waste my spells/time/repair money there?

If my job is to protect the group why not just make me a bloody chanter already

 

Message Edited by Shizzirri on 09-24-2005 06:53 PM

[Huskyla]

Chiming in from a Coercer's perspective and looking at this from the 50+ game.

First of, if a Guardian is supposed to be the best meat-shield, then yes their DPS should be lowest.  I don't think anyone is arguing opposite.  But to claim Guardian (and other fighter's) utility makes up for the difference between their dps and brusiers doesn't make sense.  IMO, here's why ...

Primarily, the best way for a fighter class to protect dps/support classes is by holding agro.  From what I've seen so far, Bruiser dps right now holds agro much better than the utility listed above.

Take Commanding Aura for starters.  As it used to be, a Guardian could cast this and mobs would stick to the Guard like glue.  From what I'm told (yes told only, so take this with a grain of salt), this doesn't work very well anymore.  Moreover, the buff only lasts 30 seconds to increase the mitigation of group members versus crush, slash, etc .. This won't keep a mage alive -- Taunts will.  A bruiser's comparable skill gives a big STR bonus (for how long?  I don't know) .. but more str = more dps, = more agro = more taunt for the bruiser = safe mage.

Turn to Return to Battle which increases the health of the Guards group.  Ok, I like HP's.  As a mage I concentrate more on stamina than intelligence because a dead coercer contributes nothing to a group.  But how much HP's is this giving?  Is it enough going to keep a mage alive when a mob is beating on him, or AE's a group/raid?  Brusiers comparable skill, Crushing Fury, flat out dps's a mob.  A dead mob won't hurt a mage and having lower HPs sure won't matter if the mob is dead.

What about Call of Defense?  Increase the defense of a Guardian's group?  This sure won't keep a mage alive.  All the defense in the world won't matter with my tissue paper armor.  What about bruisers here?   Well they get Unnerve, a mesmerize skill.  Awesome!  A bruiser can mez the mob, allowing the mage to back off and root.  This is much superior to + defense as I see it.

Finally, Guardian Sphere.  I like this one -- though I have no practical experience seeing its affects on a Guardian.  Is it suicide?  If so, why would a Guard want to use this?    Brusiers get an AE attack ..   If Sphere works well, and doesn't get a Guard dead, then yea this is superior to Bruisers.

So all in all, Guards look to get the shaft here from my perspective.  The best way to keep a mage alive isn't HP's or defense, its keeping agro off the other classes.  Seems from what I've seen that a bruiser can do this a hell of a lot better by just pure DPS.

 

Lyle

Coercer, Dark Horizon

[Moontayle]

Summary:

Guardian's "utility" (and I use that term lightly), is supposed to be able to help the group survive better. Our defensive oriented buffs are designed along this line of thought.

The problem:

In an optimal situation, something any well-oiled group is capable of achieving, there is one, and only one, person sitting there taking the damage. You might get a situation with an add or whatnot where someone not normally the tank will take damage, but in 99% of the situations I've been in, it was handled within seconds and everything went back the way it was supposed to be. So in reality, our group utility is practically non-existant. The skills we are given to help us tank better are by and large a joke, and other subclasses actually get better defensive buffs than the so-called defensive subclass of Guardian.

What Guardians are seeing:

What we see are other subclasses under the Fighter Archtype who do what we used to do, but better and with both more utility and DPS. If you read this thread, you see that we are struggling with a loss of identity. Being able to help our group become more defensive is a weak way to design a class, because the situations where an entire group would need that extra protection are few and far between. Our most useful buffs with this in mind are not only very short lasting, but two of them offer very severe restrictions in return for that extra defense.

What Guardians don't want:

We don't want to have our utility spread out over the group. We've established over and over again that in 99% of situations there's only one person taking the damage anyways, so that added defense is going to waste. We don't want added DPS. Most Guardians are fine being the low end of the totem pole in terms of DPS.

What Guardians want:

We want skills that allow us to tank better. Buffs that give us 2% avoidance are a joke. Short term buffs that give us mitigation are a joke. Short term buffs that give us 2% avoidance while lowering our DPS by 20% and slowing us by 50% are a slap in the face. Short term buffs that give us added mitigation but root us in place AND lower our DPS is kicking us in the sweet spot.

All we have ever wanted was to be tanks. SOE has taken this away from us. I have no problem with other sub-classes being tanks as well as us, but we should edge out all of them in damage taken. The balance exists when you look at Damage Taken and Damage Given. At the moment, we're about mid-grade in the Taken department and the lower-grade of Given. Being at the low end of one means we should be at the high end of the other. That's not the case. Other sub-classes exist both at the high end of Taken and Given. That is a flawed system and what we're pointing out here.

Give us our ability to tank back. Even if it's a 5% advantage, it would be offset by our poor DPS. That's all we're asking.

[stoutbrewdrink]

so are you showing us that we are group buff bots?

 

thats not utility, its just buffs, utility to me is defined as evac, coth, feign death, mana regen,

[Exill]

Brawlers also require ZERO gear to do their job while Plate tanks REQUIRE good armor in order to do their job efficiently. No matter what gear the Brawler has they still get their huge innate avoidance bonus, and they still gain the absurd amount of mitigation from buffs. A Brawler in full legendary (or with limited fabled) can tank as well as a Plate tank in full fabled. Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

[Manyak]

theres actually 2 things about the guardians i see completely busted. first, as almost everyone is stating, is the ability to take hits. and ive put up countless posts about that so not gonna go into it here....

 

second thing is the aggro holding. guards used to have 5 different lines of buffs that were recastable, with the old versions stackable (even though most didnt really stack...just appeared in the effects bar). and also used to have like 5 single taunts and 2 aoe taunts (i think). Now as an illusionist the removal of these taunts hurts bad. i havent been able to mezz an add without dying from it cuz of the aggro i generated. before revamp those extra buffs used to act kind of like a magentic field for mobs.......even without the guardian taunting the mobs i would be able to mezz safely...a stray arrow from a group member wouldnt send the mob on me anymore. also, a guard having that many buffs up at once helped the base aggro level of a mob when it added. sure, a healer casting a heal or some1 else hitting it woulda taken aggro immediately, but at least with that many buffs, when a mob added it had some kind of likelyhood to run to the guard no more of that.

[Kir]

Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think?

[Balmore]

Moorgard,Please, are you suggesting that Guardians are now okay, well-balanced and you're not going to do any thing about what we're talking? Our feedback is not really important here? or being discarded?Please, let us know so we can save the bandwidth here and stop posting about our HIT.Moorgard, the class is now boring. Why would you ever create a Guardian?You talk about us having the best group protection? I say, please go play a Guardian and see. Just play one for a week or so and tell us if you like it.It's either we're all wrong OR you're (include the devs who worked on hitting our class) wrong.The class is boring now that many things were taking out of it. It is boring and some times useless.Please, look into this! This is really serious. I love the game, I’m not leaving it any time soon and I really thank you for making such great effort to keep this game fun.But honestly, I'm currently putting my Guardian into its garage and playing a Monk. I don't think you wanted us to do this?!Moorgard -- you have the tables, you have the numbers and you have the code. But that will NEVER ever tell you if the class is fun and/or broken when you play it.

Numbers aside, I play a Monk (along with my Guardian) -- Monks are now what a tank should be. Fun, utility and damage -- did I mention tanking well, too?Play one for some time to see what we're talking about.Summary:- We need more damage. Justification: Having two Guardians in one group is really funny? No, a second Guardian doesn't add anything. Unlike ... - Fix our MD and give it an initial taunt. Justification: It's da wards baby and the root requirement. I really love this taunt but... root and get knocked back? How frustrating when try to un-root to find Mr. Al Named was chasing your Templar 10 KMs away -- Do we protect? You tell me! -- Example: Go to Hidden Cache and try it.- Our 30secs (Battle Cry line) buff needs to be reviewed. The aggro is it adds is almost nothing if any. The mitigation it adds is not even worth moving your mouse over it. But oh well, I still use it -- nice to fly!. Justification: Try it with devs on beta and go inside the Hidden Cache. Tell me about the things it added to you as a Guardian.- We protect but we don't at same time? Justification: Honestly, have you ever tried using Guardian Sphere? It killed my Wizard -- how? Attacks were landing on her like I did nothing.Well, I hope (trust at the same time) that your and other devs are really looking at our suggestions, feedback and ideas and putting them into consideration. If not -- life goes on -- my Guardian may stay garaged for longer period. Monk, get your shine on, baby, here I come!Thank you!

[Shizzirri]

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Kiris wrote:


Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?

Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.

Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think?

---

Part of this is probably him not having a solid idea on how to tank... We can hold aggro fine if people follow common group rules, like assisting you, not ice cometting on incoming, etc. 

And yes I agree with you wardens do suck atm, at least you can tank...with guardian buffs.

[lazlo1]

I am truely sick after reading moorgards post. I guess there will be no help for guardians shortcomings. Anyone who calls guardians sphere a spell has never tested it. It so worthless as so be laughable. If thats the kind of response guards get, it totally hopeless. The group spells that guardians get only help the guardian. Anyone who actually plays the game should know this. Hp and defense buffs only help the person getting beat on which 99% of the time is the guardian. If its not, you most likely have  lost anyway. I had planned to hang around and play thru this mess. It is now clear that having the lowest DPS, no decent utility, and middle of the road tanking is here to stay. And im sorry, buffing things that other group members dont need is not  utility.  How can anyone remotely call it balance when a bruiser is >=  tank and >>> damage and >> utility ? I just dont get it. When I picked this class I gave up everything to tank and taunt the best, now I just gave up everythng. Who would pick to play a guardian now ??? Only an idoit or someone who cant/wont reroll.

Message Edited by lazlo1 on 09-24-2005 11:35 PM

[ReviloTX]

Thanks for posting Moorguard, you just shot yourself in the foot.  You want all tanks to tank equally right?  Yet, you provide guardians with buffs for defense and mitigation (I'll get to the problem with protection lines later) while other classes get invis, FD, heals, etc.  You call this our utility.  This utility should then make us the BEST tanks.  Therefore, guardians should tank equally BEFORE we cast our buffs.  After we cast our buffs, we should tank better.

 

For some reason I'm not all that happy with how I said that, but I can't think of any better way to say it.  The general idea is, we gave up "fun" utility for being the best tank.  That's why we chose guardian (most of us anyways.. read the threads most posters are saying the same things.. at least the posters that are guardians).  We don't want fun, we don't want utility.. we want to tank the best.

 

Protection lines:  These are a total waste.  They weren't used pre-revamp and they won't be used post-revamp.  The reason is simple.  I lose aggro.. I have two choices, cast a taunt and try to get aggro back, or cast a protection spell.  The protection spell might work.. it might not.  The problem is, once the protection spell is done, the nuke_happy_wizard_01 still has aggro.  The only logical choice is to spam the hell out of your taunts to get aggro back and hope the damage is minimal.

 

The other problem with the protection spells is that we shouldn't even need them.  In a steady state exp group the entire group has realized the guardians aggro generation, and they don't take aggro.  If they continue to do so, they will likely be booted from the group anyways.  The only potentially meaningful use for these spells is dividing up raid dps taken between several tanks, but if that is the idea for them they could use some tweaking.

 

[JNewby]

well I read the moorgard post and while he has a point I mean really... I would rahter have MY def boosted by 14 instead of groups by 12 anyhow enoguh of that... today I saw a mystic level 53 same as mine... with 2180 mit an 4208 hp.. mine isn 2487 mit and 5107 life... now I mean he was wearing a robe and he is a healer... and not a heavy wearing healer... now to me that jsut doesnt sit to well... and people say well its cause he has nice buffs... well yeah it is... so why dont i have those? that kinda mde me upset... in fact I saw a 51 guard with nto so good gear who had only 100 more life and 200 more mit and less avoidance then that mystic

[JNewby]

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Poochymama p wrote:

BTW that was a great post Moorgard.

Guardians have about the best group utility of all the fighters atm.

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no we have no group utility in all honesty if I am tnaking and lose aggro that +12 def doesnt make a hell beans diff... also that guardians sphere doesnt either... but evac sure saves the group... our bet group util would be to tank better... and the real problem doesn set in acutally tnaking better casue we tnak fine.. but the prob is all the mobs are so weak... every clas tnaks fine.. including healers and wizzies

 

[sylvo]

The whole utility thing is rubbish as stated before. The rules to Guardian utility. 1. Must only be any use if you haven't done your primary job correctly (see intervene line") 2. Group based making it ideal to get a 2nd tank to do it for you. (see call of protection, return to battle etc..) 3. If self buff then must root caster. Awesome.

[Kir]

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Shizzirri wrote:

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Kiris wrote:Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think?

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Part of this is probably him not having a solid idea on how to tank... We can hold aggro fine if people follow common group rules, like assisting you, not ice cometting on incoming, etc. 

And yes I agree with you wardens do suck atm, at least you can tank...with guardian buffs.

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Think you misunderstood what I meant by my post. I am not complaining that Wardens are broken, im complaining that as a warden (healer) I typically will have to tank for the group if the tank is a guardian and is 2 + levels below me.  I really dont see how SoE thinks this is working as intended.

[SageGaspar]

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Exill wrote:Brawlers also require ZERO gear to do their job while Plate tanks REQUIRE good armor in order to do their job efficiently. No matter what gear the Brawler has they still get their huge innate avoidance bonus, and they still gain the absurd amount of mitigation from buffs. A Brawler in full legendary (or with limited fabled) can tank as well as a Plate tank in full fabled. Does that seem wrong to anyone else?

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It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect. Also, in response to the person posting about his Warden tanking, levels and gear are even bigger now. I've been in groups where a Guardian had four levels on me and 3/4 of the unbuffed mitigation because he was still using armor from fourteen levels ago. Light armor from the next tier is almost as good as medium or even heavy armor from the last tier, in my experience, and if you haven't picked any up as soon as the opportunity arises you're going to be severely disadvantaged, since armor doesn't gradually level anymore. As to level, a conjurer pet four levels above me was doing a better job tanking than I was, and I was a Bruiser in nearly full rare with the mitigation buffs going. If I had to suggest a utility improvement, I'd say to make Guardians the ultimate aggro holders. Give them something that allows them to basically tell everyone to cut loose on whatever group they're targeting. As a Bruiser, my single target aggro is amazing but my group (and, god forbid, multi-group) aggro (and DPS) is jack. That would be the ultimate group DPS buff for mages and such that are traditionally forced to hold back.

Message Edited by SageGaspar on 09-25-2005 07:13 PM

[Fafnir]

I find Moorgard's lack of insights concerning.  I hope there is a drawing board at SOE and that the dev team can remember the way back into that room.

[Exill]

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SageGaspar wrote:It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect.

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The only two spells I posted were both adept 1 and both stack, so I do not know what you are talking about. As for the stun in place, as a Main Tank you are constantly getting stunned anyways and you get a taunt that you can use even when stunned. About the limited duration: yes one is 30 seconds but the other lasts for 3 minutes with a short recast time. It is also worth mentioning that the Guardian buffs have penalties as well such as rooting caster in place, decrease caster attack speed, decrease caster damage per second, decrease caster run speed,  and decrease caster attack speed even more. Exill 54 Guardian 4000 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Guardian drops to 2778 Effrum 54 Bruiser 3600 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Bruiser drops to 2304 Problem? The Bruiser is in light armor with only 2 pieces of fabled armor. The Guardian is in heavy armor with 7 pieces of fabled armor. Grouped together the Bruiser can benefit from the Guardian's Commanding Aura and Call of Defense to gain an additional 486 mitigation plus even more avoidance. This puts the Bruiser up to 4086 mitigation with an extremely high avoidance. Compare this to the Guardian with 4000 mitigation but who has much less avoidance. Conclusion: Yes, these are just numbers and don't accurately describe any real combat situations. However, what is the point in being a heavy armor class when a light armor class can reach comparatively high mitigation? Are all heavy armor classes supposed to be buff bots for the light armor fighters? Their comparative mitigation, useful utility, and high dps is what makes Guardians feel useless.

[Geothe]

So, the main utility of Guardians is there ability to buff their group?  with like 200 hp and +Def buffs?

Okay, I maybe would of bought that before the combat revamp when +Def actually meant something.... but now it is a complete joke.

Go Guardians!
We can buff our group enough HP that still wont keep you from dying from a direct hit.  And we can buff your defense!  and give you maybe 2% avoidance.

Rock on!

Oh yeah!

Our DPS is crap too.

We rock!

*rolls eyes*