Utility for Guardians

[Kashyr]

OK, I’ve read a lot of posts and to me, it seems like the Guardians are lacking something.  People just can’t seem to agree on what that something is.  Maybe it’s because there is no class-defining feature of being a Guardian.  Each other class can point at some ethos/ability/stereotype and say ‘that is what my class embodies’.  Guardians just seem to be the faceless meat shields.

With this lack of definition in mind, I did some thinking.  What I came up with was that the whole concept of Guardians should be – to guard.  Yes I know, this requires no great leap in logic, but it appears to be the most obvious answer.  Now, I am not talking about the whole ‘I stand in front of the mobs and take the hits’ type of guarding.  What I am talking about is a line of spells that increases the Guardians, or anyone else’s, ability to take the hits.  This would give the Guardians the defensive edge some have been calling for, whilst giving them something to bring to the party when not the MT.

Before I get flamed to all hell, sit back and think about it for a minute.  Some Guardians are calling for a defensive edge over other tanks.  Others are calling for utility when grouping.  This simple solution (and I am probably not the first to come up with it) should keep both factions happy.  In the MT roll, this line of spells will give the Guardian the defensive ‘edge’ some have been calling for.  When not MT, this line of spells will give the Guardian a useful set of abilities to bring to the group, ie enhancing the capabilities of the MT.

With that in mind, the CAs I think would be a handy addition would be along the lines of:

Duration: Toggle on/off (similar to HtL), maybe a Concentration slot

Effect: Increases mitigation of target by x%.  The exact percentage would increase as the spell is upgraded.

Reasoning: Basically, the Guardian is using his knowledge to enhance the capabilities of whoever is MT.

 

Duration: 1 minute, 3 minutes max

Effect:  Increase avoidance of target by x%.  The exact percentage would increase as the spell is upgraded.

Reasoning: Basically, the Guardian is using his shield to protect the MT, or better utilising it to protect himself.

 

Duration: 10 seconds, 30 seconds max.

Recast timer: 30 minutes, 15 minutes minimum

Effect: Gives the target 80% Avoidance and 80% Mitigation.

Reasoning: Consider this the Guardian calling upon the tradition of their class to offer the ultimate protection to the target of the spell.  This would be less effective in raids where the ability to buff is greatest, but in small groups would provide an excellent emergency means of survival.

 

CAs along these lines would give Guardians some utility to make them more attractive to groups, as well as giving them a defensive edge.

Any thoughts/comments appreciated, but please keep flaming to a minimum.  I am trying to come up with some constructive ideas that would make Guardians more desirable in exp groups.

And before anyone flames saying ‘OMGGuardiansarealreadyover-poweredandthiswouldmakethemgodlikeagainWTFPWNED’, think what these abilities would do to another fighter who is MT with the Guardian buffing THEM.

[Raahl]

One question:  Are you a guardian?

 

Most guardians agree we need more mitigation and and our taunts improved.

Most non-guardians want to give us utility.

 

There have been a number of good suggestions in recent days.  IMO this is not one of them.

Adding the shield factor of a shield to mitigation is a great idea!  It solves the Mitigation issues of the plate classes and also makes a tower shield a little better than a kite shield.

[Gladesman]

Raahl: I am one of the guardians that would like to see our DPS and utility improved, because I know that asking for better tanking abilities is just not going to happen as SOE plain and simply wants all fighters to be tanks. I do not agree with this view, but it's the way it is and if it's unacceptable to me I'll just have to quit playing, I suppose.. and that is something I do not want to do. So, I would rather see my class improved on other aspects than constantly focusing on the "tanking" part alone. I, by the way, still believe that guardians are GOOD tanks and I believe we still have an advantage over other fighters when it comes to tanking BIG mobs.. not much, but some.

 

My suggestions for new arts / utility:

 

• Group: If guardians are still supposed to be "protectors" I suggest giving us some kind of (group) damage shield buff - kind of like a reactive heal or armor feedback. This can either be on a timer or set to a max amount of damage: a mob hits me or my party member for 400 points of damage? the dmg shield will hit him back for 400 and so on until the buff expires or until the max amount of damage has been done. Would even be better if this has an increase threat aspect as well, but I can live without that put in
• Why not change the unyielding will spell and make it a regular self-heal on a 5 minute timer or something? Really, I'm not asking for something like the bruisers self heal with a refresh timer of a minute, but just something that may save my life (as we don't have an escape / FD / root + invis or such so we have to start yelling while we're at 15-20% health to make it out alive)
• A long range pull skill (anchor reinvented?) that could avoid soical aggro would really work wonders
• Please give us one of the following: a real mezz or stun or pacify or fear spell that will last longer than 5 seconds /escape - even if it only teleports me 30 meters away I'd be happy / invis - almost every class has a solo invis, why don't we? / health to power or similar / feign death / safe-fall / rezzing ability / etc.etc. Or something else that would be "nifty" or "come in handy" in a group OR solo.
• We have a few spells that root us in place (for really no good reason, but that's besides the point), Maddening Defense being the major one and that's one we're apparently really supposed to be using. Would it maybe be possible to add a "resist knock-back" component to this? Right now I don't like to use it because wherever I go mobs seem to have this knock-back spell (I'd also love to have it!!) and they knock me off things or through walls and such and when they do I am still magically rooted so I have to constantly toggle this spell and as I'm out of range when I'm knocked away having it on is kind of useless now anyway (as it only generates hate when I'm getting hit). I don't expect to have a 100% resistance, but 50% would already be helpful!
• Solo (but could be used in group as well): A spell that will increase our defense massively (+30 or so?) temporarily (30 sec) at no cost of offensive/other skills, just to have a chance at killing a mob. Similar to Commanding presence, but just a pure defense emergency buff. Can be on a 10 minute refresh timer, as far as I'm concerned. Side note: maybe Im missing the point, but why do we have both Anchor and Wall of Brawn? Yes, I may survive a little longer, but with no DPS left and the slow I can't get out and I can't get the mob dead either. I realise these spells are maybe only useful for groups, but they still seem to have too much of a negative impact to outweigh the benefit of increased defensive skills?

I *like* some of the arts suggested in the OP; especially the ultimate protection spell (see my last suggestion as well)!! This would truly come in handy when solo-ing, as right now, our defensive short duration buffs either root or slow us, so the effect is totally usless when you're the only one trying to kill a mob

Also, in terms of damage.. aside from having our DPS (in offensive stance) tuned up to be about 70-90% of a monk or bruisers DPS (and to be honest, I would already be over the moon with 75%!!), I would like to see us get an art similar to devastation fist that will only work on solo encounters and a regular within the encounter AOE that has a stun/stifle effect added to it.

[Raahl]

Gladesman you are in the minority.  Most guardians do not care about DPS or Utility.  If we wanted that we would have played a different class.

[Gungo]

basically glade raahl is saying you and the other guards opinion in that 2 page thread i linked doesnt matter, and that raahl's view is obviously the accepted view. he continuily denies or overlooks every post by guards asking for the same thing amking thier class fun to play. Some people actually enjoy the journey and don't focus at the end goal as long as the end goal is the same. Guards want to be the best tanks. which is fine as long as the difference is not as massive as it was prerevamp, but alot of gaurds are complaing that there class is boring and no fun. Adding mitigation will nto solve all the guards issues, but lowering avodiance on all but HA will. For few reasons

1 alot of mobs in DoF don't even consider trauma mititgation.

2 mtigation is capped and eventaully all fighters wil reach the cap and we will only hear this issue again in 2 months when a full fabled brawler reachs the cap and becomes a better tank again.

3 killing a mob solo and/or group is not fun if it take the gaurd 10 min and he is stunned half the time.

4 alot of guards don't consider it fun to play when u just stand there w autoatk on staring at your taunt button waiting for it to repop.

5 not only brawlers but scouts avoid dam better the gaurds

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 07:23 AM

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 07:25 AM

[Raahl]

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Gungo wrote:
basically glade raahl is saying you and the other guards opinion in that 2 page thread i linked doesnt matter, and that raahl's view is obviously the accepted view.

---

I don't pretend to speak for you, do not pretend to speak for me.

 

Glade, I'm saying we all knew what we were signing up for in the beginning.  A Tank with little DPS and little Utility.  We understood that and accepted it because we wanted to tank.   Now Sony has taken that away, we just want some of it back.  Utility or DPS will not fix our class, sure they might make some happier.  But the heart of the problem is our tanking ability has been severely damaged and needs fixed.    If I sounded dismissive, I'm sorry.  People like Gungo have frayed my nerves and I get short sometimes.  I just want the Guardian class to be what it was suppose to be from the beginning, a tank.  Once that is fixed Sony can address any other issues.

 

Gungo please take your divide and conquer approach and leave.   At the slightest hint that the developers are listening to us guardians on what problems we are having with our class, a mob of non-guardians come in here spreading lies and propoganda.  When they have little to no idea, nor do they care, what problems our class has.    90% of the time the non-guardians flame and troll each post making it difficult for anyone to remember the original topic/problem. 

 

There have been serveral class types that have come here and stating that we are broken and cannot tank as well as other tank classes.  Healers are the biggest group, besides us guardians.  Paladin's and Beserkers have also stated this.   And as a guardian I thank them.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-23-2005 10:34 AM

[Gungo]

But yet you pretend to speak for every gaurdian on this board.

 and i just want my class to be what is was in the beginning as well ... a tank

 

O and please qoute my lies.. i would love to see you try to defend that misleading statement.

and there is plenty of posts here as well from healers and other classes saying guards tank as well or better.. would you like me to qoute them?

Just because you ignore them doesn't mean they don't exsist.

The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme. Someone mentions utility .,, you screma i don;t wan tutility i want mititgation. Someone said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. someone said well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvemnt and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I guards dont want  utility we want Mitigation. Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 08:36 AM

[Krooner]

Sorry Man but I dont want a spell line that in this Post LU13 world will be asking me to Buff the munk so his mit or defense is even better so he can tank. 

Yeah Yeah right.. thats not going to happen suuuure. 

I dont want my class to become just another buff bot. 

If your going to give us that skill make it to where it is normal speed on us. On an ally it slows them and drops their dps.  Any way you slice it its just like the SK's line of AC spells.  Same rehashed watered down spell.

 

[Raahl]

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Gungo wrote:

But yet you pretend to speak for every gaurdian on this board.

---

Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.

#1 guardians are no longer fun to play.

#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken.

#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL

#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility.

#5 I want more DPS.

#6 I want more avoidance.

 

While I don't agree with some of these, I do see their posts. 

 

[Gladesman]

guys, guys, guys... take it easy.

 

Raahl: Yes, the guardian tanking abilities are currently not up to par and should be fixed. But what happens when they're fixed and we are once again the best tanks?

 

Brawlers and crusaders will still be able to tank quite well. And on top of these tanking skills they get DPS and utility.

 

This makes my guardian not a very favourable pick for the tank spot in an exp group, nor does it make me able to solo any better. Think about the bigger picture and you'll see what I mean.

 

The fact that all fighters are now tanks is what nerfed the guardian class big time, not this bug that makes it so that guards are the worst tanks at the moment. I really don't think that this was the intention from SOE.

[Raahl]

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Gladesman wrote:

guys, guys, guys... take it easy.

 

Raahl: Yes, the guardian tanking abilities are currently not up to par and should be fixed. But what happens when they're fixed and we are once again the best tanks?

 

Brawlers and crusaders will still be able to tank quite well. And on top of these tanking skills they get DPS and utility.

 

This makes my guardian not a very favourable pick for the tank spot in an exp group, nor does it make me able to solo any better. Think about the bigger picture and you'll see what I mean.

 

The fact that all fighters are now tanks is what nerfed the guardian class big time, not this bug that makes it so that guards are the worst tanks at the moment. I really don't think that this was the intention from SOE.

---

Thanks, Gladesman

 

I just don't want the tanking abilities fix to be lost in the other issues.  I tend to pick the biggest issue and run with it untill it's fixed. 

 

Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.

[Gungo]

The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme.

 

 Gaurds mentions utility .,, you scream i don;t want utility i want mititgation.  when a gaurdian said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. gaurds say well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvement and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I dont want  utility I want Mitigation. when someone comes and says scouts have higher avoidance then guards ... you say i want mitgation. That has been your only argument.

 

Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?

 

Edited actually after reading your last post it seems you may be changing your stance at least you have admitted now that other people's opinions have merit.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 08:47 AM

[KiseroHT]

im going to weigh in; i think a GROUP protect spell and our tower shields giving us a 10-15% extra mit bonus would make alot of sense. also if rescue could be turned back to even 5 mins would sure help. this would provide a function when not chosen for mt position with the guardian being around with their tower shields GUARDING the group. this to me makes the most sense with current group play and would give me more of a sense of presence than current conditions. with this setup just having a guard in group would make the group feel better considering the always possiblity of adds and current aggro mismanagement.

[Gungo]

Nemi posted an idea for guardians only instead of lowering down rescue to 5 mins to create a new rescue line for gaurdians that was a weaker group version. This in effect gives u 2 rescue lines and help regain agro in group settings. It could be like the prerevamp verision of rescue but on a 10 min timer and encounter wide taunt. If i remember correctly it was 1 hate position and about 900+ hate.

[Krooner]

Gungo.

 

Still doenst matter if we arnt on our feet.

Ooops tank lost ago.  Its on the healer...

Rescue or what ever... guardian hit for 1500 1500 2000 dead.

end of raid.

 

[Gladesman]

---

Raahl wrote:

 

Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.

---

Yes, but our tanking ability will be fixed. It will be.

And when it will be fixed, we'll still just be "slightly better than the other tanks", hence my cry for DPS/utility to make our class desirable to group/play with again The naked truth is: SOE wants all fighters to be tanks from now onwards and I don't think we will ever be (preferred) tank for the non-epic content again UNLESS they turn down tanking abilities from the other fighters.. and well, that's not going to happen. To make us an interesting and desirable class we will need something else other than just bare tanking abilities. That's all I'm saying.

[Gungo]

o Sorry warbird i didn't mean for the group rescue ability to be a replacement for tanking. i suggested it as a compliment in regards to taunting which was one of the other issues brought up.

From sixman's post it seems brawlers may be avoiding to much compared to other fighters. In his post i recommended in regards to his numbers reduce avodiance on verylight, light and medium armour by ~10 % this will prevent scout from having higher avodiance then fighters and prevent brawlers from tanking better then other fighters. Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because

1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation

2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armourt this issue will be even more pronounced.

3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.

4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 09:12 AM

[Gungo]

This is what i propose to help guardians, not saying i don't think guards need to tank better in regards to sixman's numbers just there is plenty of issues needed to be fixed other then mititgation.

 

Raahl wrote:

 

Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.

#1 guardians are no longer fun to play. Increased utility and a more well rounded gaurd.

#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken. You mitgate mroe then other fighters, but by lowering avodiance the gap i avodiance between the 2 classes will be relative to the gap in mitigation that sixman posted

#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL i agree remove root from HTL a group rescue can also help regain lost agro.

#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility. utility and special skills and short duration buffs that are timed right can seperate a well played gaurd from a poorly played gaurd thus making guards perfrom better and mroe fun.

#5 I want more DPS. Increase in dps in offensive stance. thsi will help soloing and small group play where as a gaurd in defensive stance in high end group and raid play will benefit more from the extra tankign then from the extra dps.

#6 I want more avoidance. In retrospect lower brawler scout avodiance will allow you to have comparable avodiance.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 09:18 AM

[Raahl]

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Gungo wrote:

The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme.

---

The fact is you cannot handle that the majority of us do not believe in your "vision" of what will fix a guardian.  Your mind is so closed to the fact that we are overall the worst, if not close to the worst tanks.   Sure we can tank a small % of the mobs effectively, but overall we are the worst tank.   You do not state any facts.  You have no experience at being a guardian and you chose what is best for your class.   You do not want to see guardians fixed, because it benefits you.   You constantly drag conversations into arguments 'like this one'. 

---

Gungo wrote:

 

Gaurds mentions utility .,, you scream i don;t want utility i want mititgation.  when a gaurdian said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. gaurds say well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvement and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I dont want  utility I want Mitigation. when someone comes and says scouts have higher avoidance then guards ... you say i want mitgation. That has been your only argument.

---

Utility will not fix the problem that guardians are having with tanking.   Utility can come after Sony fixes the tanking imbalances.  I personally am happy with my utility and accept that I no longer buff my group as much.  If Sony decides to give us more, fine.  But they must fix the fighter imbalance before doing so.  This is why I come down on suggestions of utility when there are bigger issues that need to be fixed.

 

---

Gungo wrote:

 

Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?

---

I read each and every post, do I mis-read stuff occationally, yes.   Do you understand the problem here?  Do you understand that Utility will not fix the tanking imbalance that is currently in game?   Again I do not believe you want this fixed, because as long as it leaves you as the better tank you are happy. 

To all those guardians asking for utility.  We can work on getting more utility when our tanking ability is fixed.  To me, and many others, this is the biggest issue that needs fixed.  Can we tank?  Yes.  Can we tank as well as others?  No.

 

[Raahl]

---

Gungo wrote:

This is what i propose to help guardians, not saying i don't think guards need to tank better in regards to sixman's numbers just there is plenty of issues needed to be fixed other then mititgation.

 

Raahl wrote:

 

Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.

#1 guardians are no longer fun to play. Increased utility and a more well rounded gaurd.

#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken.

#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL

#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility.

#5 I want more DPS.

#6 I want more avoidance.

---

Why do you fail to understand that the main reason it is not fun is because of the tanking issues?  Fix that and issue #1 goes away for the most part.

[Krooner]

Gungo

And thats what I have been seeing.

avoidance seems to be out of scale with mitigation.

Just a thought here.  But for those out there who dont want us to have more armor mitigation what about this?

Since were wearing heavy plate then our resistance to stun, styfle, interupt, knockback, crushing, slashing would be twice that of chain and four times that of lighter armor. 

That would allow us to use our CA's and taunts more and thus allow us to stay on our feet more?

 

[blueduckie]

If they wanna give us Utility make it with our shield soley and specifccally tower shield. We are a sword and board class point blank. Make us immune to frontal stuns and stiffles. Make us have a blocking form that allows us to block 35% of all melee attacks for 30 sec. Also give us a spell block that mitigates spells at cost of slighlty dmging our shield by hiding behind it. The shield is huge give it more uses. I personally would feel uber if i could go unstunned from front. I would laugh at others losing aggro from a early stun from how crazy it is atm. Over powering i dont think so IMO nothing compared to having FD mend and so many stiffles and stuns brawlers get compared to us.

Boosting tower shield is def way to go tho IMO. Dont know what else utility would be realistic for a guardian. We are a warrior we spit on magic type skills. Dont want a self ward honestly if you want a ward make a crusader. Thats my 2 cents i definatly see more utility in our future along with other things. Alot of threads popping up no way SOE isnt seeing the problem. I dont envy them having to find a way to fix it tho because they have to run tests and numbers on whatever they consider for plate classes.

As nemi said tho on another thread margin of tanking cant be huge but we deserve the 1 up 5-10% less total melee dmg isnt out of line over all others IMO because realistically if you hit 5-10% hp constantly anny clas can tank it. Just gives a small cushin for the pushin. Dont frown on utility just matters the cost we pay to get it. Hoping we dont get thrown a bone and told to f off about are tanking problems

[Raahl]

---

Gladesman wrote:

---

Raahl wrote:

 

Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.

---

Yes, but our tanking ability will be fixed. It will be.

And when it will be fixed, we'll still just be "slightly better than the other tanks", hence my cry for DPS/utility to make our class desirable to group/play with again The naked truth is: SOE wants all fighters to be tanks from now onwards and I don't think we will ever be (preferred) tank for the non-epic content again UNLESS they turn down tanking abilities from the other fighters.. and well, that's not going to happen. To make us an interesting and desirable class we will need something else other than just bare tanking abilities. That's all I'm saying.

---

I hope you are correct in that it will be fixed.  I however hoped the combat update would not leave us in the position we are now in and look where we are. 

But I see that being vocal about problems will get them fixed for certain, a squeaky wheel comes to mind.  So I will continue to push for getting the tanking fixed.

Thanks again for being reasonable and for understanding that there is an issue with our tanking ability.

[Gungo]

Raahl seriously man you got to stop the subjective reading my entire post wasn't about adding utility it had alot of variables other then tanking and utility that adding mitigation will not fix. I also edited the yellow text one i wasn't done qouting it, but i genrally post before i get timed out because this message board sucks

Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because

1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)

2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.

3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.

4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.

 

Do you get my point yet raahl please tell me how adding mitigation will fix any of these problems? These are the issues that Guardians have brought up not me that you keep ignoring.

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-23-2005 09:44 AM

[Krooner]

Gungo.

 

Ok.

So if I read you correctly then our problem isnt mit its avoidance.

 

Ok then we have 2 alternatives.

a.  you up our avoidance to where it was pre-LU13 and leave everything else alone.

b.  you lower brawlers avoidance to make things as hard on them as it is to us.

 

personally I would go for A because I hate to see any class nerfed.

 so the choice is simple.

put our avoidance back up over 50%

 

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 09-23-2005 09:32 AM

[Vulking]

THE fundamental problem is this!  W.T.F. do you need so many tanks for?  I mean really, what for?  What do they contribute?  What does one extra tank add to a group that a dps, utility, or healer class doesn't, better yet, to a raid. 

One mob=(one tank/aggro controller+healing+dps)

Ok maybe two tanks in those rare raid situations where you need one to peel off the adds. 

 I mean come-on, just look at the composition of any botter crew and ask yourself; why does this group consist of one tank, one healer, and 4 mage classes, (scouts are dps/utility, but not included in bot crews because they are complex characters and are hard to play as bots )?

If SOE can find an answer to this issue, then I feel all tank classes can find a position on the battlefield.

Message Edited by Hammarus on 09-23-2005 11:32 AM

[Gungo]

Also Blue i thiink adding a stun resist to shields will help both crusaders and gaurds alot and is a good idea. I dont think medium armour needs stun resist since scouts do tank quite well as it is.

[Gungo]

Actuall warbird you got it.

Actual option A still leaves brawlers soloing low to even con 2 up heroics. (some may not see this as a problem, but some do) 

Actual B is not a good alternitve either since if you just lower brawler avodiance then scouts will still be able to tank DoF mobs better then guards.

What i Proposed is if considering Sixman's numbers are correct that SoE lowers all avodiance on Very light, Light and Medium armour by ~10%. This would solve alot of the issues that people have brougth up. 

additionally after lower avoidance on other fighters they need to give guards more Gasp utility =P. I am sticky with utility lol there is a sizable population in the guard community that has made this request.

[Krooner]

Gungo.

 

I keep hearing that word but what Im not sure you realize is that we had utility.

Case in point.

We go to do the Speak as a Dragon starter for the first time some months ago.

I try to tank it first.. we had a rough time and had to reset and try it again.  We find the dragon is doing a poison AOE.

Solution.  I put my intercepts on the SK.  He had a higher poison resist.  But what else I gave him is gone. 1K in HP.

In a group if I was MT OT or AFK getting a beer I gave the group more than a token 300+ HP.  Braskans gave crushing resist.  And Return to Battle gave the guard a STR boost at the end.  All the secondary effects of our group buffs and CA's were either gimped or dropped.  There went our utility.

Im not sure there is anything that could be added to make up for those.  Its going to take more than just one spell because it doesnt just affect the uber 50+'s it affects the whole class.  So if SOE wants to fix things they need to fix the whole spell line.

 

[Gungo]

I agree warbird

First off I am glad we agree on the avoidnace issue funny how raahl stops posting when i clearly state arguments he can't refute. 

 

(disclaimer these are in addition to fixing tanking disparities)

and there are several ideas and abilites peopel have suggested to fill in those many missing gaps.

Stun resist on shields to help crusaders and warriors. a small amount of mitgation on shields.Both these can be adjusted to differentiate kite vs tower.

 

a group rescue, and a slow component on your aoe taunt

 

a 3 sec 25% stun proc on your offensive stance

 

a new long range pull ability to replace anchor (I suggested a long range bow stifle that works on epics, Raid utility :smileywink

 

a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.)

 

another 30 sec buff that doubles your sheild avodiance would be cool.

 

add a knockback or knockdown atk for a lil flavor and you have some nice new buffs and utility that helps not only in tanking but fun and if these are used correctly can help a gaurdian become a great tank. These are not all the ideas suggested but it is part of a few that have been said.