Guardian vs Paladin

[Sebero]

Let me start by saying i play a 49 warden. My partner has a 50 guardian and a 45 paladin.

 

While grouping with the guardian I had alot of trouble healing the guardian and the guardian had alot of trouble keeping agro off of me. we took on a spectre and had to break encounter, evac or end up dead. So we tried it with the paladin.... While grouping with the paladin not only was i able to keep the paladin healed but the paladin never once lost agro & they have a special group buff now that allows everyone in the group to proc special direct damage on undead mobs. and on top of that the paladin is 5 lvls lower than the guardian that couldn't tank with better gear and legendary weapons. Something is wrong with this picture.

 

Suggestions for change;

1) Increase the guardians AC & mit so that it is better than non-plate classes.

2) Increase the guardians ability to taunt.

 

I feel the guardians should have / be the best when it comes to AC, mit, HP, and taunting. The reason for this is simple really and that is because the guardian doesn't do anything else and is highly specialized through training and such to do just that. Unlike other fighters who have utilities aside from straight tanking. It takes time away from training to fight when you learn to feign death or how to heal a wound or how to drain life or go berzerk or whatever... this is why the guardian should be the best at straight tanking ability.

 

As it stands right now it's headed the way EQ did when they beefed up the pally / SK tank ability there... Pally could hold agro with a fishing pole equiped where a warrior had to work alot harder and still lose agro from time to time. I would hope SOE learned their lesson well from that fiasco but apparently not.

[Nemi]

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Sebero wrote:

 

I feel the guardians should have / be the best when it comes to AC, mit, HP, and taunting. The reason for this is simple really and that is because the guardian doesn't do anything else and is highly specialized through training and such to do just that. Unlike other fighters who have utilities aside from straight tanking.

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Doesn't it then make sense to give utility to Guardians as well so they are in line with other tanks, as opposed to breaking the Fighter tree?

[JBo]

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Nemi wrote:

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Sebero wrote:

 

I feel the guardians should have / be the best when it comes to AC, mit, HP, and taunting. The reason for this is simple really and that is because the guardian doesn't do anything else and is highly specialized through training and such to do just that. Unlike other fighters who have utilities aside from straight tanking.

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Doesn't it then make sense to give utility to Guardians as well so they are in line with other tanks, as opposed to breaking the Fighter tree?

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Please tell us you are one of the developers and are considering changing the game mechanics so guaridans can be a utility class.

 

[Krooner]

The Fighter tree?  Thats a good one  LOL

Look every fun thing that we had... either got dropped or gimped down to nothing.

Every fun thing that they planned for us in the expansion got gimped down.

Utility... define utility.  You mean great HP buffs.. had them lost them.

 

 

 

[Gungo]

Not entirely sure why your results seemed so different from most people, but the specters are lvl 47-48 casters and undead. Pallies specialize vs undead and casters. Having higher wisdom (and divine resist on def stance) and resists as well as specialised spells vs undead tends to benefit a pally more, but still some thing is up with that huge discrepancy compared to what many other people are seeing. try tanking the sand giants and see if the issue tanking is as noticable.

[JBo]

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Sebero wrote:

Let me start by saying i play a 49 warden. My partner has a 50 guardian and a 45 paladin.

 

While grouping with the guardian I had alot of trouble healing the guardian and the guardian had alot of trouble keeping agro off of me. we took on a spectre and had to break encounter, evac or end up dead. So we tried it with the paladin.... While grouping with the paladin not only was i able to keep the paladin healed but the paladin never once lost agro & they have a special group buff now that allows everyone in the group to proc special direct damage on undead mobs. and on top of that the paladin is 5 lvls lower than the guardian that couldn't tank with better gear and legendary weapons. Something is wrong with this picture.

 

Suggestions for change;

1) Increase the guardians AC & mit so that it is better than non-plate classes.

2) Increase the guardians ability to taunt.

 

I feel the guardians should have / be the best when it comes to AC, mit, HP, and taunting. The reason for this is simple really and that is because the guardian doesn't do anything else and is highly specialized through training and such to do just that. Unlike other fighters who have utilities aside from straight tanking. It takes time away from training to fight when you learn to feign death or how to heal a wound or how to drain life or go berzerk or whatever... this is why the guardian should be the best at straight tanking ability.

 

As it stands right now it's headed the way EQ did when they beefed up the pally / SK tank ability there... Pally could hold agro with a fishing pole equiped where a warrior had to work alot harder and still lose agro from time to time. I would hope SOE learned their lesson well from that fiasco but apparently not.

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It's obvious that Paladins can tank much better then Guardians at this time. I grouped with Paladisn after the combat revamp. This is what I have observed:

• Paladins have less HP than Guardians;
• Paladins hold aggro much better, and they don't need to be rooted to hold aggro.
• Paladins don't take as much damages as Guardians, as they can heal themselves very efficiently.

The paladin I have grouped with has only one fabled brace, and all other pieces are treasured or player made legendary armor. He has lost about 400 mitigation by casting grant of armormant on me to give me about 200 mitigation and . 

The end result is that he has about 2100 mitigation and about 36% avoidance.  And I have about 3100 mitigation and about 45% avoidance. We are both level 50.

First I pulled the level 55^^^ ghosts in Living Tomb. Taunted all the way in the fight and was rooting myself using maddening defense. After about 20-30 seconds, I always lost aggro to conjuror or the paladin. And my HP dropped constantly to orange and red. Few deaths happened in the group.

After few rounds, I ran out of arrows. The paladin volunteered to pull and tank.

To our surprise, the palandin's HP never dropped more than orange, and he never lost aggro. He has less HP, less mitigation, less avoidance, yet most of the time, his HP was green.

We are amazed, and I let him main tanking for the whole night. No single death have ever happened after.

My conclusion:

• Paladins can tank much better than guardians now.
• Paladins can hold aggro much better.
• Paladins' heals helped them a lot in tanking.

 

[Sebero]

Posted by Gungo

" try tanking the sand giants and see if the issue tanking is as noticable. "

 

We've been all through stinking sands and pillars of flame even. with both the pally and guardian. Pally 5 lvls lower tanks better hands down on anything we ran into.

Message Edited by Sebero on 09-22-2005 09:12 AM

[Raahl]

I group regularly with a paladin and we trade off tanking.  He does quite well. 

Though I have to say he's a better OT, cause he can heal in a pinch and does more DPS than a guardian (not much more, but some).

[Gungo]

well then i guess the guards need more utility to help them tank better in solo and small groups then. How many other gaurds have seen pallies out dps them? because i was under the impression pallies were the worst off in dps.

[Raahl]

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Gungo wrote:
well then i guess the guards need more utility to help them tank better in solo and small groups then. How many other gaurds have seen pallies out dps them? because i was under the impression pallies were the worst off in dps.

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The Paladin only has slightly better DPS.  My group, including the paladin, saw this and we switched back to me being MT.

No we do not need utility.  A guardian is not about utility.  A guardian is about mitigating damage.  If a guardian was to mitigate better it would solve a lot of our issue and keep us different than the utility tanks. 

If I had wanted utility I would have been a Paladin or SK or even a Brawler.

How many times are you going to derail threads Gungo?

[Gungo]

what you fail to see is that increasing your tanking while you already a superior pure tank will make other fighters obsolete, but then again you don't really care. The logical solution would be to increase utilty so that you will be able to perfrom as well as other fighters in groups/solo. In effect the same outcome w/o making other fighters inadequate at tanking compared to gaurds.

 

and who said i derailed the thread the inital poster laid out an example the secondary poster recommended utility. you then proceeded to cry afowl and ask for mitigation. I fail to see who derailed a thread if anything it was a discussion regarding pal vs guard and dou'ing w regards to the pally perfroming better because of his utility. so it would seem since you joined the thread after the inital discussion that you are derailing the thread.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 10:51 AM

[Shizzirri]

Sometimes I think Gungo is really a guardian because he has more posts here than he does in his bruiser forums, you all think he really wishes he was a guard?

[Krooner]

 Wait a minute. 

There is something amiss here.

If Utility spells are suppose to be soooo hot then why would the fighers who already have them become obsilite?

A Paladin with his heals and Res and everything else will never be on the bench.  Same for a Shadow Knight.

Tanking means standing up to a mob, holiding their attention and SURVIVING.

If you cant survive the initial pull and or their new and improved AI spells.  Then your not a tank.  Your a fill in.

If a monk can stand up there and avoid being hit and manage to hold agro.  fine... Good tanking.

But if you get slammed and die then maybe your not the right tank for that mob.

Guardians are right in the middle we not Monk were not Crusader hell were not even Beserk even theough they are in our class.

Its easy to see why we became Most utilized Tank

With our baseline stats (PRE REVAMP) it was easy to buff and gear within a few points of each class.

Add to that our line of taunts did have some nice effects and we could give everyone a good amount hit points  

POST revamp.

Almost all of our taunt effects are gone and can be resisted.

We are no longer in the middle of each class were at the bottom.

 

If you just give us more mit its not going to bump the rest of the fighters to the bench.

SOE added resists to each fighter class defencive stance.  That means when it comes time to hit that epic with some special attack you can be sure its going to be by fighter type tanking it.

 

Just because we are the most widely used tank doesnt mean that were the best for every situation. 

 

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 09-22-2005 11:07 AM

[JBo]

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Gungo wrote:
what you fail to see is that increasing your tanking while you already a superior pure tank will make other fighters obsolete, but then again you don't really care. The logical solution would be to increase utilty so that you will be able to perfrom as well as other fighters in groups/solo. In effect the same outcome w/o making other fighters inadequate at tanking compared to gaurds.

 

and who said i derailed the thread the inital poster laid out an example the secondary poster recommended utility. you then proceeded to cry afowl and ask for mitigation. I fail to see who derailed a thread if anything it was a discussion regarding pal vs guard and dou'ing w regards to the pally perfroming better because of his utility. so it would seem since you joined the thread after the inital discussion that you are derailing the thread.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-200510:51 AM

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Don't know where did you draw the conclusion that guardians are already superior pure tanks? We don't have extra mitigation, we don't have extra avoidance, we don't have extra HP, and we don't have extra taunts. Do you ever play a guardian?

After the combat revamp, guardians are just beseline plate tanks, that's it.

[Gungo]

What is the issue then really if guardians are the best pure tanks atm which they are since they tank all raid mobs better then other tanks. Why are gaurdians asking for more mitigation. becuase in groups and solo they lack desireablity. why is that ask yourself?

its because all that utility you glaot we have means nothing in raids. You already are a better tank what you need is that utility which is alot less effective when raiding to help you be desired in groups. If you dont want it that is fine but don't come here asking to become a better tank becuase you want to be the most desired in group and solo. Guards claim they want to be the best for tanking raids and they are I don't see the issue there. since you alreayd the preferreed tank. what you are asking for is to be unbalanced. I said i have np w guards adding 300 mitigation to shields, but don't dismiss the fact you need utility for all the other guards who want utility. You are being narrowminded and selfish.

[Gungo]

You do have the most mitigation you do have the most defense buffs you do have more taunts i did play a 50 guard for raids have you ever played a bruiser. and you are preferred because you take the least amount of damge in raids hence you are a superior tank.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 11:33 AM

[Raahl]

Gungo doesn't seem to read what we post, that or he only reads what he wants to.

 

[Gungo]

show me then raahl a screenshot of a comparable guard and bralwer with the guard w less mititgation, less defense or a gaurdian being asked to sit out of maintanking a raid becuase the brawler is better. Thats right i am calling you out raahl shwo me proof.

 

brawler have 1 group and 1 solo taunt and rescue, guardians have more once again raahl where is the proof less whining more facts please.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 11:46 AM

[Sebero]

I don't have a screen shot of it but i've seen a monk named Miroh on Befallen server solo the brood mother in EF prenerf (by prenerf i mean the revamp) so it's not like monks needed to be beefed up. They already had the ability to tank and do more DPS than plate tanks.

I think the real reason the other tanks are posting here is because they got a huge upgrade they didn't need and are now "broken" and want to keep it that way by derailing the guardians legitimate beefs. 

[Gungo]

o believe me i read what you post raahl and don't agree with it. I tend to agree with many other gaurds that want to be wanted more in groups and solo better w/o overpowering themsleves beyond the other fighters. Currently tanking is comparable w guards having a slight edge. The fact that other fighters utility makes them more desire is what has guardians panties all bunched up. So obvious solution give guards more utility.

 

you know what take away all the gaurds dps buffs, hp buffs, defensive buffs, mitigation buffs,  and protection buffs give gaurdians a shield w 1k ac. and lets see how fun your pure tank w absolutly no utility becomes.

[Krooner]

Gungo.

Speaking for myself only here.

A major gap that I see is with the damage and so called utility spells.

Look at the difference like this.

SK have a harm touch that does 5K or petter damage.   At best our Blast will do 800.  Thats over a 5 to one ratio.

Not sure what the Pally has but Im sure its something similar.

Monks have twice our avoidance.  2 to 1

Why is it so much to ask that we have twice their mitigation ?

We dont have any CA's or group buffs that approach the other classes.  Not even close.

The only thing we have is our Plate.  It should be on the same scale / ratio as a bruiser or monks avoidance. Hands down

Lastly Gungo. NO I dont want some watered down utility spell that every other class has.  Why because SOE just winds up either taking it away in the next patch or it doesnt work and they will keep telling us .. dont worry we will fix it in the next patch.

 

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 09-22-2005 12:05 PM

[JBo]

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Gungo wrote:

What is the issue then really if guardians are the best pure tanks atm which they are since they tank all raid mobs better then other tanks. Why are gaurdians asking for more mitigation. becuase in groups and solo they lack desireablity. why is that ask yourself?

its because all that utility you glaot we have means nothing in raids. You already are a better tank what you need is that utility which is alot less effective when raiding to help you be desired in groups. If you dont want it that is fine but don't come here asking to become a better tank becuase you want to be the most desired in group and solo. Guards claim they want to be the best for tanking raids and they are I don't see the issue there. since you alreayd the preferreed tank. what you are asking for is to be unbalanced. I said i have np w guards adding 300 mitigation to shields, but don't dismiss the fact you need utility for all the other guards who want utility. You are being narrowminded and selfish.

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Gungo, can you think a little bit before you post, please?

I want to ask you, what make us the best pure tanks atm?

And why do we tank raid mobs better than others?

This may be true before the combat revamp. But it's totally nonsense after the combat revamp.

There is nothing in guardian's spell books which can make guardians tanking raid mobs better than other classes now.

The reason that you have seen lots of guardians tanking raid mobs is simply because they have accumulated some fabled gear in the past, that's it.

Giving the same gear:

• Guardians don't have extra mitigation over other fighter classes:

With same gear, guardians have exactly the same mitigation values as other plate tank classes. We don't just become a good tank automatically.

Guardians got 1 line of defensive stances which add more mitigation, but all fighter classes have these stances now.

Guardians also have 2 lines of mitigation buffs which give more mitigations, but they only last for 30 seconds while other fighter classes get up to 3 minutes of mitigation buffs.

After 30 seconds, guardians are just baseline plate tanks. In other words, we only tank better than other fighter classes for about 30 seconds. Then we need to wait another 1.5 - 3 minutes to get buffed again.

• Guardians don't have more HP than other fighter classes:

Guardians got 1 spell which increases HP by about 380 at Adept I, and another spell which increases STA by about 25 at Adept I. But this is the only advantage guardians have right now. The total benefits only amount to about 400 HP self buffed.

And remember, these are group buffs, so other fighter classes will get these benefits also if in a same group.

With nearly all legendary gear (only 1 fabled item), I have about 4100 HP when unbuffed. The monk I have seen has about 3950 HP with same tier of gear (most are legendary). And consider that I have chosen every single traits, trainings, items to maximize my HP, I really don't have any advantages.

I have about 140 STA, while I have only 4100 HP.

Monk has about 90 STA, and has 3950 HP.

Did you see what the problem is? Guaridians don't have any HP advantages. If the monk maximize STA, I will lose the competition badly.

• Guardians don't have more taunts than other figther classes:

I have only 4 taunts which are on different timers, and one taunt stance which will root me. I don't hold aggro than anyone of the fighter classes, and if we try to maiximize hate, we lost mobility.

I really don't know how can anyone say that guardian is best pure tank, if you have read my posts carefully?

[Raahl]

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Gungo wrote:
show me then raahl a screenshot of a comparable guard and bralwer with the guard w less mititgation, less defense or a gaurdian being asked to sit out of maintanking a raid becuase the brawler is better. Thats right i am calling you out raahl shwo me proof.

 

brawler have 1 group and 1 solo taunt and rescue, guardians have more once again raahl where is the proof less whining more facts please.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 11:46 AM

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If you were to post a screenshot of your brawler, we might be able to find a comparable guardian!!!  Again you are not listening.  I can only show you what a 43 level guardian is at!   If there are any level 43 brawlers out there I will be glad to compare.   We just have to get someone to post.

Why are you afraid to post your stats when in defensive mode, of course showing the buffs you have up.  We should be able to find a guardian that will do the same and is the same level.

You ask for proof of a guardian with less mitigation?  You won't see that, guardians have slightly more mitigation than brawlers.  Defense is not mitigation only it also includes Avoidance. 

Do brawlers not have a taunt that works when they hit things, or do Monks only have that? 

 

You don't have any attacks that add to hate?

 

Your Superior DPS doesn't factor into hate at all?

 

I have 5 taunts total.  1 attack that gains hate, 1 group, 1 single, 1 rescue, and our HTL that has a chance to gain hate when we get hit.

[Poochymama]

Actually Gungo is right.

If guardians become superior tanks to all the other 5 fighters than all the other fighters will become obsolete.

If a guardian is the best tank then why bring any other fighters to a group/raid

THEY DEFINATELY DONT HAVE ANY UTILITY (coming from a berserker standpoint, we have nothing except 47 extra health regen per tick....lol)

THEY DEFINATELY DONT HAVE ANY DPS

THE ONLY THING THEY BRING IS TANKING AND IF THEIR NOT TANKING WELL....

Ok but seriously I do think you guys should maybe get some Utility spells or something. Cause right now you dont have much(although you have better than most of the fighters)

[TanRaistlyn]

Thats just ignorant all other fighter classes have some type of utility, from Monks/Bruiser's Fd's and DPS, to Crusaders DPS, Lifetaps, Heals, Buffs, even zerkers get some sick damage skills...Guards the class meant to tank the best...[Removed for Content]!!!  But Im sure lots of other people playing other classes can come in and tell us how we should just sit back and bare it...

 

Covenant

[Krooner]

Ok Ok.... Im sick of hearing about Utiliy... If defense is our mainstay then this is the utility I want

Armor enhancement

Guardian spell level: skill

Concentration: 0

duration: Toggle until cancelled

Target: SELF

effect.  Raises the armor value of the guardian by 20pts for ever level earned.

 

[Poochymama]

Ok you guys have like 2 def buffs and a 500 pt health buff.

That is sooooooooooooooo much better than FD, and that measely self heal.

I will agree with you that palys and SKs have more utility but seriously as a berserker id kill to have a 500pt health buff.

All we get is 47 extra health regen per tick :smileysad:

And all this talk about paly and zerker dps shows how little you actually know.

Our guild has 3 legendary equiped tanks with adept III's and while the guardain is at the bottom of dps hes always within 5dps of the paly and 10 dps of the zerker.

And to say that DPS is utility is wrong DPS is DPS.

 

 

[TanRaistlyn]

Wow I have parsed countless fights prevamp and post, and NEVER once have I seen a Guardian come close to a Zerker in damage...U must have some [Removed for Content] Zerkers to be doing Guardian damage...Or more accuretly your just making stuff up.

 

Covenant

[Krooner]

Its not 500 its 383 at Adept 1

And 500 is meaningless when you get hit 5 times for 200 points in 5 seconds.

 

[Poochymama]

Lol their not that [Removed for Content](dont have any masters but are all adept III's)

On AOE fight the zerkers that have rampage up totally [Removed for Content] the guards by like 30 dps but on single targets i have even seen the guards do more.