Guardians SHOULD be the best tanks! - Page 2

Gladesman · 09-22-2005, 05:39 PM

sylvore wrote:

From a personal perspective some of the best groups I have been in have been the non traditional groups.

I've played to level 50 with a group consisting of 1 guard, 2 monks, 1 chanter, 1 swash and 1 shammy and we achieved GREAT things eventhough everybody thought we were hopeless.. I often played tank, the monks and swash played DPS/utility, the chanter played buffbot and the shammy healed us all. It was great!

I would love to have that same group together again and not feel like a completely useless twerp while I'm in it :smileysad: Heck, I would actually love for one of the monks to tank and I would contribute by DPS-ing or using my super utility spells, but alas..

Nemi · 09-22-2005, 05:40 PM

Safest I see would be protecting the group. Your utility should reduce risk for the group whilst you are in it and reduce downtime. For me, the attraction of having a Guardian in the group means your playing safe.

I've suggested CAs for Guardians that would accomplish this:

A Permanent regenerating Group Ward. Would soften up the problem of losing aggro as it would absorb a couple of blows from a MoB.

An encounter AoE Rescue CA on 10min timer. Giving Guardians 2 rescue abilities, Single and AoE.

A Group Health Regen whilst out of combat (would also reduce downtime of Guardian soloing) and perhaps reduced regen in combat.

I wouldn't want to see the normal taunts change on any class. Losing aggro still has to be a possibility and should happen more often than it does, making having a Guardian more meaningful as tank.

All fighters should be even on tankability (or there and there abouts, but all still able to do it). With the above abilities, a Guardian would make an excellent Main Tank as well as Off Tank.

But I'm a monk, I could suggest lots of changes for my class (Heck we have 1 taunt CA and 1 AOE taunt) which makes multiple mob encounters with AOE classes a nightmare, but I'll live with it as long as I can still tank.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 05:43 PM

Nemi wrote:

Raahl wrote:

The gap is all but gone Gungo.

But it is still there. While I agree Guardians need to have more affect on their group (Group Ward, AoE Rescue, Group Intervene) they don't need increase tanking ability.

So would you like to have the DPS and avoidance gap reduced? Guardians trade DPS, Utility and Avoidance for Mitigation. The mitigation gap between guardians and other fighters is a joke. Does this mean I want DPS, Utility or Avoidance?

No! Guardians need more Mitigation!

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 09:43 AM

Nemi · 09-22-2005, 05:45 PM

I dont think anything needs to be changed in Mitigation, Avoidance, or DPS (although if you want to increase DPS while you are in offensive stance, I'm all for it)

Tanking is balanced, it is utility that needs to be tweaked.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 05:55 PM

Nemi wrote:

I dont think anything needs to be changed in Mitigation, Avoidance, or DPS (although if you want to increase DPS while you are in offensive stance, I'm all for it)

Tanking is balanced, it is utility that needs to be tweaked.

That's what I expected you to say.

Guardians need more mitigation.

Nemi · 09-22-2005, 05:56 PM

Well repeat your mantra all day long until you cancelled because you didnt get what you wanted.

Open your eyes.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 06:05 PM

Nemi wrote:

Well repeat your mantra all day long until you cancelled because you didnt get what you wanted.

Open your eyes.

My eyes are wide open.

Again, Thank you, but your help (IMO) is not wanted or needed. Let us guardians work on what is broken with our class.

Gungo · 09-22-2005, 06:07 PM

Raahl wrote:

So would you like to have the DPS and avoidance gap reduced? Guardians trade DPS, Utility and Avoidance for Mitigation. The mitigation gap between guardians and other fighters is a joke. Does this mean I want DPS, Utility or Avoidance?

No! Guardians need more Mitigation!

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

Where is your proof prior number sposted show gaurds w ~10% more mititgation and ~15% less avodiance to bruisers that with the bruiser using a 3 min buff that now drians 1300 hp a min (based on my % of health) and a reuse after fading of 3min and the guard NOT using bothhis mitigation and defense short durations buffs. Fact is guards are still the best tank. Fact is guards are still the preferred Main tank fact is guards have the highest defense of all fighters. You are wrong.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 06:14 PM

Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers.

The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like.

Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM

MrDiz · 09-22-2005, 06:28 PM

You all need to get to grips with a fundamental truism of this game (all all rpgs in general): There will ALWAYS be one class thats better at TASK X than all others. You can balance till doomsday and even if by some miracle you achieved it for a microsecond, it would be lost the second some innovative player figured a new tactic, or sony add even the tiniest but of new content.

So the question isnt 'should there be a best tank?' the question is and anlways will be 'which tank should it be?'.

And will this mean all players will only play this tank? Not a chance. You see the 'best tank' class preDoF was Guardian and was the least independant. So many players who wanted to solo, or duo with a wizard would be better off with a pally,sk etc etc. In eq1 Druids and Necros were the best solo classes, but many people chose to play clerics because they wanted the group experience and sacrificed soloability for specialisation at their one tank: healing.

Sony can try till the earth stops spinning but some classes will always solo better. Until they simply remove the classes and we all play fighter/scout/mage or priest of course. The fact that conjurers get pets and enchanters get group buffs means that they will never ever be equal. they will never solo the same. They will never dps the same. They will never be group friendly in the same way. Mages they may be, equal they are not! all that matters is there is a strong reason to play one. For pet classes it may be the independance of solo. For chanters it may be the ease with which they find groups etc. They are only equal in that they both give a good reason to play the class.

Now this is true for fighters and always will be. Try as you or sony may, it will always be this way. Currently the best big group tank is monk. The best solo fighter also seems to be monk with pally a strong second. Small group tank poisition is best filled by Paladin or Monk. Utility and secondary support is best filled by monk, paladin, sk. Best buffer (if a fighter relishes that role) probably goes to Paladin or SK. And so on and so forth. Each fighter will always excel in one way, giving it a reason to exist.

Let me put it this way, if a guardian, monk and healer had trioed preDoF the guard would have tanked, the monk dpsed and the healer healed. A fiarly good trio. If a wizard was lfg, they may ignore him because they want to keep the small group bonus.

Same trio postDoF and we find the monk tanking and dpsing(badly), the healer healing and the guardian dpsing (badly). Now they lack dps. A wizard is lfg........ bye bye guardian. Unless they are good friends and dont mind being held back by you.

PreDof Guards were better tanks, Monks were better dps/solo. Paldins were good tanks and great solo. Post Dof Monks are better at everything. Paladins are as good as or better at everyhting than guards. Guards still only have one thing they can do (tank) and they arent very good at it.

Gungo · 09-22-2005, 06:29 PM

Once again raahl i am hard pressed to believe that every rading guild that uses a guard does so out of habit only. especially when epics have been made much harder why would any raiding guild risk wiping with a lesser tank. Raiding guild set up groups to win not to appease their guardian. Guardians have the most mitigation and the most defense. Defense adds more then just avodiance as many gaurdians presume. What exaclty it adds i haven't got a clear answer. Although defense does add to a players ability to tank. So yes guards are the best tank at the moment.

mrdrizz- the fact is gaurds are the best pure tank. The issue at hand is wether gaurds should get increased further or add utility to make them even better at solo/grouping. Many other fighters like the gap in tanking to be smaller so they can fulfilll thier primary role w/o feeling inadequate. And many guards want some utility and flair to make playing a guard fun in all aspects of the game not just tanking that big bad mob.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 07:34 AM

livid_corrupt · 09-22-2005, 06:40 PM

Its hard to tell the exact change to my zerker in raids as SOE have made raiding almost impossible with the orange/red con in the old world as we all know SMILEY

comparing to a similar guard in my guild he has the edge in mitigation and about 500 more hp than me, but my key feature required in raiding mutli add mobs in the past is still in place that is agro control due to our higher dps and AOE attacks, i lose out in stats but make up in agro control, seems fair to me SMILEY

time will tell but there is now a real difference between the 2 warrior classes and that is something i like but there is always gonna be these types of "the grass is greener" threads thats just life i suppose SMILEY

MrDiz · 09-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Grungo, i dont want guards to be 10 times better tanks. Just slightly better. Maybe 2 or 3% better. So in a 'taunt' competition a guard would win. So that over 1 minute they would take perhaps 2 or 3% less damage. Currently they are slightly worse. Actually a lot worse than monks. I just cant get over how much better a 50 monk in treasured gear tanked than a 50 guaridan in full ebon. And not once could i get aggro off him if he used his taunts EXCEPT when i used rescue, and i lost it about 6 seconds later after that.

Nemi · 09-22-2005, 06:58 PM

Well the test you conducted would have been skewed somewhat.

The monk was attacking from behind I presume when you were tanking. Monks have a taunt proc that has a 50% chance to go off when he hits a melee attack, which would be almost every second swing since he is attacking from the back. All of his combat arts would hit creating LARGE dps aggro, plus his taunts and probably self haste. Eventually his CAs would be recycling, you would get aggro back and the mob would turn to you...just in time for the Monk to unload his DPS CAs against the back of the enemy.

I suggest you do the experiment again and ask the Monk to stand next to you in front of the mob...I'm sure you'll see a difference given the monk has exactly 2 taunts > 1 single and 1 AoE and his taunt proc won't work since the mob will be dodging/blocking/parrying his attacks and the monks DPS will go down the toilet.

Message Edited by Nemi on 09-22-2005 03:59 PM

Message Edited by Nemi on 09-22-2005 04:01 PM

Shizzirri · 09-22-2005, 07:02 PM

Whats the point of this thread? We are the best tanks right now even with the changes. If its about our dps its still high, you still have an attack that can do 1k damage. Quit whining, so you have to work a little harder to hold aggro, so what its still not that hard once you figure it out.

MrDiz · 09-22-2005, 07:11 PM

No nemi, he was always at its front cos he had aggro. From the moment we pulled to the moment it died. and no i wasnt main tank because we already knew who tanked better even with his crappy gear. And we were deliberately both starting taunting at the same time on his call just to see who taunted best. Guardians main taunt now involved us being rooted and getting hit. This means we need aggro from the start and we need to be hit afew times before anyone else taunts or attacks. If anyone else gets aggro in the first few seconds its ridiculously hard to get back (involves having them stop attacking and buffing etc). Once the monk got aggro and kept attacking and taunting each attack he taunted. Because my main taunt requires me to be getting hit It was basically doing nothing.

Even once where I pulled and hit all my taunts before he even arrived at the combat spot i chose he got aggro off me in seconds. But thats ok, cos he went down in hp slower than me and the healers told me to leave him with aggro SMILEY

Full ebon guardian..... treasured crapola gear monk ..... let the monk tank.

omg.

Gungo · 09-22-2005, 07:13 PM

mrdrizzi the point is gaurds do tank better epic fights show that since the other classes utility does lil to help tanking epics. The reason why brawlers tank solo group better is our utility which i propsoed guards get. Bralwers have 4 stuns or stilfes they use. not only does stunning the mob prevent damage a brawler would take, but it also prevent him from gettig stunned in return. by adding a stun proc to a guardians offensive stance the gaurdian would solo/group better. thats only one idea. I will compile a list of ideas people both gaurdians and non-guards have made.

Nemi · 09-22-2005, 07:23 PM

Well there is your problem.

If the monk didnt have his +aggro buff up, didn't use his taunts and rescue, he wouldn't have aggro and you would have no problem keeping aggro from him. What's your point?

Asking to have your taunts improved because you lost at a taunting competition is stupid! You have no problems holding aggro unless someone else uses taunts to take it off you. As for the monk tanking better, I can't say. I know my guild guardians don't see the sky falling down or envious at my tanking ability.

Guardians have SO much easier time holding aggro vs a group encounter than a monk. We have 1..lets count them...1 AoE taunt that cycles in 20seconds. Thats it. Any AoE class DPS is pointless having a monk tank, we can't hold aggro, ironically we have the best defense against multiple mobs.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 08:21 PM

Gungo wrote:
Once again raahl i am hard pressed to believe that every rading guild that uses a guard does so out of habit only. especially when epics have been made much harder why would any raiding guild risk wiping with a lesser tank. Raiding guild set up groups to win not to appease their guardian. Guardians have the most mitigation and the most defense. Defense adds more then just avodiance as many gaurdians presume. What exaclty it adds i haven't got a clear answer. Although defense does add to a players ability to tank. So yes guards are the best tank at the moment.

Didn't say every guild. Most guilds have build up their Guardians with very good gear and have not worked out new tactics to raiding. Once they discover that a guardian can buff up an avoidance tank's mitigation, they will equip the avoidance tanks up and use them at MT. A guardian will then be an OT at best. Plus guardians are a bigger power sink as far as healers go.

Gungo · 09-22-2005, 08:30 PM

well until your specualtions become reality i will have to go what my eyes can see. and currently guards are the best and preferred tank.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 08:37 PM

Gungo wrote:
well until your specualtions become reality i will have to go what my eyes can see. and currently guards are the best and preferred tank.

So say's a non-guardian.

Guardians can still tank, this is true. But, why have a tank that drains more power from the healer, keeps aggro as good as any other fighter, tanks as well as any other fighter and has less DPS.

MrDiz · 09-22-2005, 08:37 PM

Just to set the record straight. I believe a guardian should taunt as well or better than any other tank and survive longer against a mob assuming no heals are given. ie if a Pally, Monk and Guardian were to stand being attacked by a mob the guardian should last longer IF noone uses a heal on them (including self heals). Whether its avoidance or mitigation doesnt matter. Guardians should survive longer. Thats my belief.

Now if im understanding you correctly you believe they should taunt the same as other classes (even tho their taunt is passive and requires aggro to fire) and that all tanks should last the same amount of time without needing heals.

Ok, if this is the case, why should paladins and monks be able to heal themselves? If tank side is identical (which currently i dont accept), then why does a monk need mend? Or safefall? Or better dps?

Gladesman · 09-22-2005, 08:45 PM

or feign-death.. or invis.. SMILEY

Tanking skills may not be identical, guards may still be a tad better. (which I believe to be true and rightfully so given the history of our class)

But a tad better doesn't make up for everything else all the other fighter classes have.. including DPS and the plethora of handy / utility spells.

Message Edited by Gladesman on 09-22-2005 06:47 PM

Gungo · 09-22-2005, 08:51 PM

so says every guild on every server who chooses a guard to tank.

actually nemi recommended inceasing taunt versatility. she recommended another rescue line of spells for guards that was group based. hence OMG more UTILTY.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 10:01 AM

Shizzirri · 09-22-2005, 09:55 PM

Gungo wrote:

so says every guild on every server who chooses a guard to tank.

actually nemi recommended inceasing taunt versatility. she recommended another rescue line of spells for guards that was group based. hence OMG more UTILTY.

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 10:01 AM

A group rescue would be nice but that would be a very powerful spell, right now an adept 3 rescue gives about 2.5k hate and moves you 3 slots up the hate list...Imagine that group based.

Danan · 09-22-2005, 10:05 PM

Raahl wrote:

Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers.

The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like.

Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM

Here is my mitigation, 1 fabled piece of arm and RGF, Profile is here

This is without the 3 min mitigation buff on, i think you can do the math from there and see that our mitigation isnt all that great as you say it is.

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 10:52 PM

Dananeb wrote:

Raahl wrote:

Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers.

The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like.

Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM

Here is my mitigation, 1 fabled piece of arm and RGF, Profile is here

This is without the 3 min mitigation buff on, i think you can do the math from there and see that our mitigation isnt all that great as you say it is.

Is that in defensive stance?

Looks like you are around 31% without the buff and 42% with the buff.

So that buff cost no power? Instead it does damage to you. It does give you an additional 11% mitigation which might offset the health cost a little.

So without your buff you only take roughly 414 points of damage from a 600 point hit? (600 x .69)

With the buff on you only take roughly 348 points of damage from a 600 point hit. (600 x .5 SMILEY Roughly a savings of 66 health for just one hit.

If you only get hit once every 6 seconds the skill costs you 24 health. Of course bigger hits would mitigate more eventually making the skill cost you nothing.

Am I right about how mitigation affects damage?

Raahl · 09-22-2005, 10:53 PM

BTW thanks for posting that screenshot.

Oh and is that armor T5 or T6?

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 02:55 PM

Danan · 09-22-2005, 11:53 PM

You are right in your calculations, most of the time solo or lower level heroic's this buff isnt even worth using as the amount of life used would be greater than the damage taken. Through the entire buff we end up taking 60% of our HP over 3 min, in my case this ends up being 2700 hp. Its worth the trade on a named or other big hitter but not much else.

I am in just T5 legendary in that SS, as for buffs there is from top going down.

Battle fury Master2, 51str 77agi
Quarrel Ap4, 25% proc 45-75dmg 123 threat
Fishbone
Rousing Cry master1, 18% dps to group
Retaliation Ad3, -13.2 C/S/P Defense/defelection +18.5 Mitigation +308 Poison Mitigation +1232

The last 4 is 2x Imbued items and 2x rings (agi and sta)

MrDiz · 09-23-2005, 01:46 AM

Who told you Guardians are the preffered tanks? someone who hasnt played in Dof? My main is a templar, and I can tell you qite categorically now that guardians are my least favourite tank currently. My best tanking so far in DoF was provided by an SK and by a Monk. Paladins not so good as them, but as good as a guardian at the same level, plus he has the option to help on heals if it goes bad. Sorry but youre just plain wrong on the 'guardians are the preferred tanks' thing for grinding or questing so far. And i cant imagine once i hiot 60 and start raiding ill be suggesting we use a guardian as MT. I mean why would I? They require far more healing than say Monks, lose aggro more often and dont bring anything else to the table.

09-22-2005, 05:39 PM	#31
Gladesman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 64	sylvore wrote: From a personal perspective some of the best groups I have been in have been the non traditional groups. I've played to level 50 with a group consisting of 1 guard, 2 monks, 1 chanter, 1 swash and 1 shammy and we achieved GREAT things eventhough everybody thought we were hopeless.. I often played tank, the monks and swash played DPS/utility, the chanter played buffbot and the shammy healed us all. It was great! I would love to have that same group together again and not feel like a completely useless twerp while I'm in it :smileysad: Heck, I would actually love for one of the monks to tank and I would contribute by DPS-ing or using my super utility spells, but alas.. __________________ Hagel Enzo - lvl 80 Bruiser // Pinko Purno - lvl 80 Defiler

09-22-2005, 05:40 PM	#32
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	Safest I see would be protecting the group. Your utility should reduce risk for the group whilst you are in it and reduce downtime. For me, the attraction of having a Guardian in the group means your playing safe. I've suggested CAs for Guardians that would accomplish this: A Permanent regenerating Group Ward. Would soften up the problem of losing aggro as it would absorb a couple of blows from a MoB. An encounter AoE Rescue CA on 10min timer. Giving Guardians 2 rescue abilities, Single and AoE. A Group Health Regen whilst out of combat (would also reduce downtime of Guardian soloing) and perhaps reduced regen in combat. I wouldn't want to see the normal taunts change on any class. Losing aggro still has to be a possibility and should happen more often than it does, making having a Guardian more meaningful as tank. All fighters should be even on tankability (or there and there abouts, but all still able to do it). With the above abilities, a Guardian would make an excellent Main Tank as well as Off Tank. But I'm a monk, I could suggest lots of changes for my class (Heck we have 1 taunt CA and 1 AOE taunt) which makes multiple mob encounters with AOE classes a nightmare, but I'll live with it as long as I can still tank.

09-22-2005, 05:43 PM	#33
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Nemi wrote: Raahl wrote: The gap is all but gone Gungo. But it is still there. While I agree Guardians need to have more affect on their group (Group Ward, AoE Rescue, Group Intervene) they don't need increase tanking ability. So would you like to have the DPS and avoidance gap reduced? Guardians trade DPS, Utility and Avoidance for Mitigation. The mitigation gap between guardians and other fighters is a joke. Does this mean I want DPS, Utility or Avoidance? No! Guardians need more Mitigation! Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 09:43 AM __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 05:55 PM	#35
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Nemi wrote: I dont think anything needs to be changed in Mitigation, Avoidance, or DPS (although if you want to increase DPS while you are in offensive stance, I'm all for it) Tanking is balanced, it is utility that needs to be tweaked. That's what I expected you to say. Guardians need more mitigation. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 06:05 PM	#37
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Nemi wrote: Well repeat your mantra all day long until you cancelled because you didnt get what you wanted. Open your eyes. My eyes are wide open. Again, Thank you, but your help (IMO) is not wanted or needed. Let us guardians work on what is broken with our class. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 05:45 PM	#34
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	I dont think anything needs to be changed in Mitigation, Avoidance, or DPS (although if you want to increase DPS while you are in offensive stance, I'm all for it) Tanking is balanced, it is utility that needs to be tweaked.

09-22-2005, 05:56 PM	#36
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	Well repeat your mantra all day long until you cancelled because you didnt get what you wanted. Open your eyes.

09-22-2005, 06:07 PM	#38
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Raahl wrote: So would you like to have the DPS and avoidance gap reduced? Guardians trade DPS, Utility and Avoidance for Mitigation. The mitigation gap between guardians and other fighters is a joke. Does this mean I want DPS, Utility or Avoidance? No! Guardians need more Mitigation! __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________ Where is your proof prior number sposted show gaurds w ~10% more mititgation and ~15% less avodiance to bruisers that with the bruiser using a 3 min buff that now drians 1300 hp a min (based on my % of health) and a reuse after fading of 3min and the guard NOT using bothhis mitigation and defense short durations buffs. Fact is guards are still the best tank. Fact is guards are still the preferred Main tank fact is guards have the highest defense of all fighters. You are wrong.

09-22-2005, 06:14 PM	#39
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers. The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like. Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT. Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 06:28 PM	#40
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	You all need to get to grips with a fundamental truism of this game (all all rpgs in general): There will ALWAYS be one class thats better at TASK X than all others. You can balance till doomsday and even if by some miracle you achieved it for a microsecond, it would be lost the second some innovative player figured a new tactic, or sony add even the tiniest but of new content. So the question isnt 'should there be a best tank?' the question is and anlways will be 'which tank should it be?'. And will this mean all players will only play this tank? Not a chance. You see the 'best tank' class preDoF was Guardian and was the least independant. So many players who wanted to solo, or duo with a wizard would be better off with a pally,sk etc etc. In eq1 Druids and Necros were the best solo classes, but many people chose to play clerics because they wanted the group experience and sacrificed soloability for specialisation at their one tank: healing. Sony can try till the earth stops spinning but some classes will always solo better. Until they simply remove the classes and we all play fighter/scout/mage or priest of course. The fact that conjurers get pets and enchanters get group buffs means that they will never ever be equal. they will never solo the same. They will never dps the same. They will never be group friendly in the same way. Mages they may be, equal they are not! all that matters is there is a strong reason to play one. For pet classes it may be the independance of solo. For chanters it may be the ease with which they find groups etc. They are only equal in that they both give a good reason to play the class. Now this is true for fighters and always will be. Try as you or sony may, it will always be this way. Currently the best big group tank is monk. The best solo fighter also seems to be monk with pally a strong second. Small group tank poisition is best filled by Paladin or Monk. Utility and secondary support is best filled by monk, paladin, sk. Best buffer (if a fighter relishes that role) probably goes to Paladin or SK. And so on and so forth. Each fighter will always excel in one way, giving it a reason to exist. Let me put it this way, if a guardian, monk and healer had trioed preDoF the guard would have tanked, the monk dpsed and the healer healed. A fiarly good trio. If a wizard was lfg, they may ignore him because they want to keep the small group bonus. Same trio postDoF and we find the monk tanking and dpsing(badly), the healer healing and the guardian dpsing (badly). Now they lack dps. A wizard is lfg........ bye bye guardian. Unless they are good friends and dont mind being held back by you. PreDof Guards were better tanks, Monks were better dps/solo. Paldins were good tanks and great solo. Post Dof Monks are better at everything. Paladins are as good as or better at everyhting than guards. Guards still only have one thing they can do (tank) and they arent very good at it. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

09-22-2005, 06:29 PM	#41
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Once again raahl i am hard pressed to believe that every rading guild that uses a guard does so out of habit only. especially when epics have been made much harder why would any raiding guild risk wiping with a lesser tank. Raiding guild set up groups to win not to appease their guardian. Guardians have the most mitigation and the most defense. Defense adds more then just avodiance as many gaurdians presume. What exaclty it adds i haven't got a clear answer. Although defense does add to a players ability to tank. So yes guards are the best tank at the moment. mrdrizz- the fact is gaurds are the best pure tank. The issue at hand is wether gaurds should get increased further or add utility to make them even better at solo/grouping. Many other fighters like the gap in tanking to be smaller so they can fulfilll thier primary role w/o feeling inadequate. And many guards want some utility and flair to make playing a guard fun in all aspects of the game not just tanking that big bad mob. Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 07:34 AM

09-22-2005, 06:40 PM	#42
livid_corrupt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15	Its hard to tell the exact change to my zerker in raids as SOE have made raiding almost impossible with the orange/red con in the old world as we all know comparing to a similar guard in my guild he has the edge in mitigation and about 500 more hp than me, but my key feature required in raiding mutli add mobs in the past is still in place that is agro control due to our higher dps and AOE attacks, i lose out in stats but make up in agro control, seems fair to me time will tell but there is now a real difference between the 2 warrior classes and that is something i like but there is always gonna be these types of "the grass is greener" threads thats just life i suppose __________________

09-22-2005, 06:52 PM	#43
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Grungo, i dont want guards to be 10 times better tanks. Just slightly better. Maybe 2 or 3% better. So in a 'taunt' competition a guard would win. So that over 1 minute they would take perhaps 2 or 3% less damage. Currently they are slightly worse. Actually a lot worse than monks. I just cant get over how much better a 50 monk in treasured gear tanked than a 50 guaridan in full ebon. And not once could i get aggro off him if he used his taunts EXCEPT when i used rescue, and i lost it about 6 seconds later after that. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

09-22-2005, 06:58 PM	#44
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	Well the test you conducted would have been skewed somewhat. The monk was attacking from behind I presume when you were tanking. Monks have a taunt proc that has a 50% chance to go off when he hits a melee attack, which would be almost every second swing since he is attacking from the back. All of his combat arts would hit creating LARGE dps aggro, plus his taunts and probably self haste. Eventually his CAs would be recycling, you would get aggro back and the mob would turn to you...just in time for the Monk to unload his DPS CAs against the back of the enemy. I suggest you do the experiment again and ask the Monk to stand next to you in front of the mob...I'm sure you'll see a difference given the monk has exactly 2 taunts > 1 single and 1 AoE and his taunt proc won't work since the mob will be dodging/blocking/parrying his attacks and the monks DPS will go down the toilet. Message Edited by Nemi on 09-22-2005 03:59 PM Message Edited by Nemi on 09-22-2005 04:01 PM

09-22-2005, 07:02 PM	#45
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	Whats the point of this thread? We are the best tanks right now even with the changes. If its about our dps its still high, you still have an attack that can do 1k damage. Quit whining, so you have to work a little harder to hold aggro, so what its still not that hard once you figure it out.

09-22-2005, 07:11 PM	#46
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	No nemi, he was always at its front cos he had aggro. From the moment we pulled to the moment it died. and no i wasnt main tank because we already knew who tanked better even with his crappy gear. And we were deliberately both starting taunting at the same time on his call just to see who taunted best. Guardians main taunt now involved us being rooted and getting hit. This means we need aggro from the start and we need to be hit afew times before anyone else taunts or attacks. If anyone else gets aggro in the first few seconds its ridiculously hard to get back (involves having them stop attacking and buffing etc). Once the monk got aggro and kept attacking and taunting each attack he taunted. Because my main taunt requires me to be getting hit It was basically doing nothing. Even once where I pulled and hit all my taunts before he even arrived at the combat spot i chose he got aggro off me in seconds. But thats ok, cos he went down in hp slower than me and the healers told me to leave him with aggro Full ebon guardian..... treasured crapola gear monk ..... let the monk tank. omg. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

09-22-2005, 07:13 PM	#47
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	mrdrizzi the point is gaurds do tank better epic fights show that since the other classes utility does lil to help tanking epics. The reason why brawlers tank solo group better is our utility which i propsoed guards get. Bralwers have 4 stuns or stilfes they use. not only does stunning the mob prevent damage a brawler would take, but it also prevent him from gettig stunned in return. by adding a stun proc to a guardians offensive stance the gaurdian would solo/group better. thats only one idea. I will compile a list of ideas people both gaurdians and non-guards have made.

09-22-2005, 07:23 PM	#48
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	Well there is your problem. If the monk didnt have his +aggro buff up, didn't use his taunts and rescue, he wouldn't have aggro and you would have no problem keeping aggro from him. What's your point? Asking to have your taunts improved because you lost at a taunting competition is stupid! You have no problems holding aggro unless someone else uses taunts to take it off you. As for the monk tanking better, I can't say. I know my guild guardians don't see the sky falling down or envious at my tanking ability. Guardians have SO much easier time holding aggro vs a group encounter than a monk. We have 1..lets count them...1 AoE taunt that cycles in 20seconds. Thats it. Any AoE class DPS is pointless having a monk tank, we can't hold aggro, ironically we have the best defense against multiple mobs.

09-22-2005, 08:21 PM	#49
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Gungo wrote: Once again raahl i am hard pressed to believe that every rading guild that uses a guard does so out of habit only. especially when epics have been made much harder why would any raiding guild risk wiping with a lesser tank. Raiding guild set up groups to win not to appease their guardian. Guardians have the most mitigation and the most defense. Defense adds more then just avodiance as many gaurdians presume. What exaclty it adds i haven't got a clear answer. Although defense does add to a players ability to tank. So yes guards are the best tank at the moment. Didn't say every guild. Most guilds have build up their Guardians with very good gear and have not worked out new tactics to raiding. Once they discover that a guardian can buff up an avoidance tank's mitigation, they will equip the avoidance tanks up and use them at MT. A guardian will then be an OT at best. Plus guardians are a bigger power sink as far as healers go. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 08:30 PM	#50
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	well until your specualtions become reality i will have to go what my eyes can see. and currently guards are the best and preferred tank.

09-22-2005, 08:37 PM	#51
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Gungo wrote: well until your specualtions become reality i will have to go what my eyes can see. and currently guards are the best and preferred tank. So say's a non-guardian. Guardians can still tank, this is true. But, why have a tank that drains more power from the healer, keeps aggro as good as any other fighter, tanks as well as any other fighter and has less DPS. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 08:45 PM	#53
Gladesman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 64	or feign-death.. or invis.. Tanking skills may not be identical, guards may still be a tad better. (which I believe to be true and rightfully so given the history of our class) But a tad better doesn't make up for everything else all the other fighter classes have.. including DPS and the plethora of handy / utility spells. Message Edited by Gladesman on 09-22-2005 06:47 PM __________________ Hagel Enzo - lvl 80 Bruiser // Pinko Purno - lvl 80 Defiler

09-22-2005, 08:51 PM	#54
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	so says every guild on every server who chooses a guard to tank. actually nemi recommended inceasing taunt versatility. she recommended another rescue line of spells for guards that was group based. hence OMG more UTILTY. Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 10:01 AM

09-22-2005, 09:55 PM	#55
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	Gungo wrote: so says every guild on every server who chooses a guard to tank. actually nemi recommended inceasing taunt versatility. she recommended another rescue line of spells for guards that was group based. hence OMG more UTILTY. Message Edited by Gungo on 09-22-2005 10:01 AM A group rescue would be nice but that would be a very powerful spell, right now an adept 3 rescue gives about 2.5k hate and moves you 3 slots up the hate list...Imagine that group based.

09-22-2005, 10:05 PM	#56
Danan General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 210	Raahl wrote: Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers. The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like. Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT. Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM Here is my mitigation, 1 fabled piece of arm and RGF, Profile is here This is without the 3 min mitigation buff on, i think you can do the math from there and see that our mitigation isnt all that great as you say it is. __________________

09-22-2005, 10:52 PM	#57
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Dananeb wrote: Raahl wrote: Gungo, Time and time again I ask you to post a screenshot of your stats buffed and buffed with your 3 minute mitigation buff. You have yet to do that. Please do and we can try and compare numbers. The comparison I used was between a monk and a guardian of around the same level (42'ish), the monk had slightly better equipment that the guardian so it skews the values a little bit. I'll dig up those values again if you like. Guardians may be the preferred tank at the moment, but that's only out of habit. We are no longer the top defensive fighter there are better fighter types for MT. Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 10:17 AM Here is my mitigation, 1 fabled piece of arm and RGF, Profile is here This is without the 3 min mitigation buff on, i think you can do the math from there and see that our mitigation isnt all that great as you say it is. Is that in defensive stance? Looks like you are around 31% without the buff and 42% with the buff. So that buff cost no power? Instead it does damage to you. It does give you an additional 11% mitigation which might offset the health cost a little. So without your buff you only take roughly 414 points of damage from a 600 point hit? (600 x .69) With the buff on you only take roughly 348 points of damage from a 600 point hit. (600 x .5 Roughly a savings of 66 health for just one hit. If you only get hit once every 6 seconds the skill costs you 24 health. Of course bigger hits would mitigate more eventually making the skill cost you nothing. Am I right about how mitigation affects damage? __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 10:53 PM	#58
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	BTW thanks for posting that screenshot. Oh and is that armor T5 or T6? Message Edited by Raahl on 09-22-2005 02:55 PM __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-22-2005, 11:53 PM	#59
Danan General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 210	You are right in your calculations, most of the time solo or lower level heroic's this buff isnt even worth using as the amount of life used would be greater than the damage taken. Through the entire buff we end up taking 60% of our HP over 3 min, in my case this ends up being 2700 hp. Its worth the trade on a named or other big hitter but not much else. I am in just T5 legendary in that SS, as for buffs there is from top going down. Battle fury Master2, 51str 77agi Quarrel Ap4, 25% proc 45-75dmg 123 threat Fishbone Rousing Cry master1, 18% dps to group Retaliation Ad3, -13.2 C/S/P Defense/defelection +18.5 Mitigation +308 Poison Mitigation +1232 The last 4 is 2x Imbued items and 2x rings (agi and sta) __________________

09-23-2005, 01:46 AM	#60
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Who told you Guardians are the preffered tanks? someone who hasnt played in Dof? My main is a templar, and I can tell you qite categorically now that guardians are my least favourite tank currently. My best tanking so far in DoF was provided by an SK and by a Monk. Paladins not so good as them, but as good as a guardian at the same level, plus he has the option to help on heals if it goes bad. Sorry but youre just plain wrong on the 'guardians are the preferred tanks' thing for grinding or questing so far. And i cant imagine once i hiot 60 and start raiding ill be suggesting we use a guardian as MT. I mean why would I? They require far more healing than say Monks, lose aggro more often and dont bring anything else to the table. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )