Even Mages Can Tank Better Than Guardians Now

[ToiletBomb]

I'm sorry guys I'm just not seeing the problem.  I'm a 46 guard, I was 44 when expansion hit and I took an hour soloing to relearn my skills.  I thin duoed with a warlock for 2 levels.  This warlock prepatch could easily take aggro from me.  Now I find myself using less power and holding aggro and even putting out waaay more dps than I ever did before. I am finding no problem whatsoever tanking and I seem to be doing much better all around.  Sure my stats are a bit lower but with everything getting retuned I fight just as well.  I mitigate well when I want to (throwing up mit buffs) and I hold aggro when I need to.  Stances are great and useful now (I notice about a 20dps difference in parses between offensive and defensive in small group situtations).  I am hearing all this complaining but I am just not seeing it.  I'm tanking better than before, I'm holding aggro better, and fights are more manageable now.  If someone could explain why guards are gimped now I would love to hear it ... I'm only seeing huge improvements.

[JBo]

ToiletBomb, if you can't see the huge difference between pre-patch and post combat revamp, then the only thing I can say is that you didn't pay attention to your classes.

 

From your description, you seems lack some group and raid experience. If you were duoing with a warlock mostly and still doing so frequently, then you surely can't see the difference. A group of two without healer like yours couldn't take the mobs which were designed for a full balanced group, be it pre-patch or not. So basically you are fighting relative weaker mobs, and you won't notice that the mobs designed for full groups are hit MUCH harder now. And certainly you won't notice that mobs designed for group can actually RESIST your taunts now. Try put up a full group with a healer and go out kill the herioic mobs at your level, and you will notice what huge nerf we are talking about.

 

Before the so called combat revamp, a single healer, whatever class he/she is, I can tank well if we are about same level. After the combat revamp, two healers are required for most dungeons now.

 

I can tell you some of my vital stats:

 

After combat revamp:

 

Mitigation has been cut from 50% to 30%

HP has decreased from 5000 to 4000

Avoidance has dropped from 50% to 30%

Taunts can be resisted frequently now

More taunts are on same timer now

Only one HP buf can be used at any time now

No deaggro stance exists anymore

Defense is meaningless now

 

If you didn't pay close attention to your classes before, certainly you can't notice the huge nerf, even if you have spent one whole hour to study your classes after the revamp.

 

And, I can tell you, 1 hour of studying skills is far less then needed. I spent a whole night on the patch day to study my new skills and finally I drew the conclusion that this combat revamp is a HUGE nerf to our classes.

 

If you still don't understand what's going on, this is a quick guide for a dummy:

 

After combat revamp, Guardians get hits as frequently as mages, and are hit as hard as scouts.

 

I think you surely should understand some very bad things are going on now.

Message Edited by JBoot on 09-19-2005 08:50 AM

[eqtaka]

I'm a 50 Guardian.   Full Ebon, No fabled.  I have no issues tanking Cyclops with a mix of healers.  Ive gone in with 2 druids and wiped.  Ive tried with a Druid and Shaman and its a no contest in our favor.  The revamp resembles more of EQ1 style fighting.  Shamans with slow and back up healers are important again.  Enchanters are important again.

 

It's important to unlearn what you have learned to win.  We did a level 60^ last night.  It had adds and we had no issues.  A single healer can no longer keep a Tank alive in less then elite gear.  They way spells are timed or taken away prevent this.  Try a second healer of a different type to benefit from the buff lines and debuffing capabilities.  I think you will be more then pleased vs mobs that con Orange to you.

 

Something to keep in mind as well.  Casters with pets can heal their pets, therefore 2 healers for the pet.

Message Edited by eqtaka on 09-19-2005 01:04 PM

[Maycr]

I have same exp yesterday when pass more time playing... Its sad and i thinking cancel my acc... Guardians turns useless... and SOE dont see it... :smileysad:

 

[Edyil]

Mage classes can stifle and stun individual mobs repeatedly when things go bad for them.  Most mobs when stifled and stunned 100% of the time do little damage to anyone, including casters healers or tank.  The biggest issue is that getting aggro back from a mage that is spamming his highest aggro defensive spells is almost impossible.  Also, if the mage pet dies, the pet hate is transfered to the Mage IN ADDITION to his current agro.  Nobody will out-taunt that... end of story.

Now if you want to tank better, have the mages learn to better control their aggro by stunning and stifling in moderation to help support your HP.  In addition, there is no reason a mage should be using a master2 defensive pet aggro buff while in a group.  If their pet isn't getting agro, then they most likely arent either.  If they are using that class spec then they don't trust their group tank.... which is just adding to the tanking problem from the start.

It's the same with my monk.  This weekend I (45) grouped with a lvl 50 Zerker RL friend.  I took aggro on every single mob because 1) I was spamming CAs from behind doing lots of damage and 2) I had my aggro buff on.  Once I took the agro buff off, I never took agro again.  Mages have the same option, just via their pets.  Tell them to change buffs if they arent bright enough to do so on their own.  You probably ended up with some kid in your group that was doing it on purpose.

As far as killing groups of much lower level greens, mages can do that fast.  That's what they are built for.  But if they try it with a group of blues, they are dead in seconds, regardless of how many down arrows.

[JBo]

I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.

The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.

[Shizzirri]

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JBoot wrote:

I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.

The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.

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I think its because heavy armor has an avoidance penalty or some nonsense, its something like different tiers of armor (light, very light, etc) having a certain effect on avoidance, the heavier the less avoidance.  Is it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] yes mages should be able to dance around and avoid attacks especially when they're casting spells, its about as unrealistic as guardians being able to dodge 80% of the attacks they get in 700 lbs of heavy armor.

[JBo]

Heavy armor might have the effect of dereasing your moving speed.

However, does the current design consider the fighter trainings?

Mages are specialized in spells, it means they are more kind of scholars, who sit there all day and don't do much excercise. I would be amazed is a scholar can even walk a very long distance.

Fighters are specialized in fights, it means they spend their whole life training fight skills. Surely with heavy armor, they can't move very fast. However, fighting is not about moving fast. With your weapon and shield, you should be able to parry and block most of the melee attacks, without even moving your toe a inch.

In other words, there is no way that a mage can avoid more attacks than fighters. This would be just ridiculous.

I would imagine in the real world, a mage would die instantly if the enemy slashes him with a long sword, while a fighter can block at least 10 attacks before the enemy can even land a hit.

Anyway, I think the current game design doesn't take in acount of any of fighter's attributes.

Suggestions:

1) Give plate tanks more base avoidance. I would suggest at least 30% base avoidance for all fighters.

2) Give plate tanks more base mitigation. Without any armor, fighters should have at least 20% base mitigation. As fighters are general stronger people, the meat you have should definitely help you in a fight.

 

[Aethane]

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Shizzirri wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.

The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.

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I think its because heavy armor has an avoidance penalty or some nonsense, its something like different tiers of armor (light, very light, etc) having a certain effect on avoidance, the heavier the less avoidance.  Is it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] yes mages should be able to dance around and avoid attacks especially when they're casting spells, its about as unrealistic as guardians being able to dodge 80% of the attacks they get in 700 lbs of heavy armor.

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Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it.

[Kelli]

50 Guard here with full ebon and a few fabled items......I have noticed similar issues with the Warlock and Conjurers.   Working cooperatively (letting me establish aggro) the warlock and conjurer can provide very high DPS and not gain aggro.   However; when the occasionally over do it, they seem to tank the mob just fine.....as long as it is yellow.   There is very little difference between their ability and mine.    Orange mobs were a different story, don't get me wrong they hit me hard as well, but they really put a hurt on the mage classes.

While it is disturbing enough to see mages tank yellow mobs on par with me .....that’s not the really scary part! 

Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?  While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob....short of Rescue NOTHING would pull the mob off the pet, not even the warlock unleashing.  When we finally figured out which buff was pulling aggro the conjurer jokingly suggested we should let his pet tank since he seemed to hold aggro so well.  We tried it, and it was devastating for me.  The pet rocked!  It could pull quickly, establish BETTER aggro faster, and the DPS classes could nuke away!   Soon the mobs were dropping like flies!  I switched to the offensive stance and equipped the two hander so I could contribute even more DPS….if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em .  Sometimes the pet health would get low, but with its aggro holding abilities it did not matter since the mob would die sooooo quickly.

Sure I was upset about some of the changes, but I also liked some of the improved abilities (Rescue and maddening defense, etc), but the above two issues shows how [Removed for Content] these changes are......

My advice look for DPS and a conjurer to group with......the xp is great.  

 

Message Edited by Kellic2 on 09-19-2005 05:44 PM

[a6eaq]

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Gage wrote:

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Prynn wrote:
I blame Gaige.   I mean 5900 whining posts gotta get a brotha somethin.

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Fixed.  If you feel the need to make fun of me, at least be accurate.

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Why?  By the time we get your "accurate" number of posts, you have already made 10-20 more! 

5,954+ posts in 11 months and a few days, wow, when do you find time to play?  Oh yeah another already figured it out!  BOTmiester!!  J/K Gage.

[Valdar]

Hey guys,

 

Looks like you tanks may want some information about mage stats?

 

In full legendary T5 gear, jboots and an agi buff I manage

 

Mitigation 711

Avoidance 35.6%

HP about 3k

 

This is a setup I use for soloing these days. It drops my INT below max by about 100, so in group settings where I can hide behind a tank it's usually a lot lower.

[Geothe]

"Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?  While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob."

Then the conjurer was using the wrong pet/stance in your group.    The earth pet has taunts and the defensive stance increases the effectiveness of the taunts.  If the conjurer was grouped with a tank.... he/she should of had their Fire or Air pets out in the offensive stance.   Those ptes have no taunts at all and are DPS.  Having an earthpet out in a group is moronic and you should all yell at any conjurer (or necro) that is using their tanking pets while grouped with a real tank! lol

 

[Kell]

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Geothe wrote:

"Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?  While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob."

Then the conjurer was using the wrong pet/stance in your group.    The earth pet has taunts and the defensive stance increases the effectiveness of the taunts.  If the conjurer was grouped with a tank.... he/she should of had their Fire or Air pets out in the offensive stance.   Those ptes have no taunts at all and are DPS.  Having an earthpet out in a group is moronic and you should all yell at any conjurer (or necro) that is using their tanking pets while grouped with a real tank! lol

 

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It was a conjurer and he was using his earth pet.   You are totally correct that the earth pet is for soloing and the other pets are more effective in group situations.  However; this was within a day or two of the expansion going live, and we were all playing with our new abilities.  I regularly group with the conjurer and we try new stuff all the time (compare pet dps, pet pull, etc)

My point is that the conjurer earth pet (adept 3) is at least as good a tank in a group situation as I am.   I think he does take more damage than I do, but he holds aggro so well that everyone can nuke away (warlocks, rangers, you name it) and the mob dies very quickly.

 

I feel i should mention that if/when the pet dies the aggro to the conjurer is.......well.....unreal.  I now taunt occasionaly throughout the fight so if the mob dies I can use rescue and save the conjurer.

 

Did I mention that the pet now has a new/improved group taunt?  He can hold multiple (same encounter) mobs with no issues.   We have played like this for a bit now (with the pet as the MT) and I don't hink I have seen the pet's taunts get resisted.  He really is impressive.

 

I can see why the pet has great aggro abilities.  Obviously this pet is for soloing and based on the DPS that the conjurer can do, the pet needs to hold aggro effectively.  Thats fine with me!.....I don't care about the pet's abilities, I am only comparng myself to the pet.  I *think* many of the people that took the conjurer assumed they would be able to solo......and as a result I think they should be able to solo effectively.

I chose a tank class.....so i could group and tank effectively.  I just wish there was more of a difference between my abilites and the pets!

 

Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.

[JBo]

Kellic wrote:

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Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.

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The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.

If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.

[SkarlSpeedbu]

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Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it.

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OMG! dude you have to post some video of this.  I can't even do backflips with pajamas on.

[Edyil]

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JBoot wrote:

Kellic wrote:

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Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.

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The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.

If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.

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That most certainly is not true.  And it should never be true.  A mages pet IS the mage.  Ask them.  A guard at adept3 quality should outdamage a defensive adept3 mage pet.  Tanking wise they would be about the same, the pet losing out on the guard specials.  But thats where the comparison ends.

Stop comparing guards to other classes and stick with fixing your mitigation issues.  If you want to hammer a point home and quite possibly get some results, stay with a mild mitigation plate boost and have its effects increased for plate classes.  That is where you have a chance to succeed in your attempts at change.

[JBo]

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Edyil wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

Kellic wrote:

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Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.

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The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.

If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.

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That most certainly is not true.  And it should never be true.  A mages pet IS the mage.  Ask them.  A guard at adept3 quality should outdamage a defensive adept3 mage pet.  Tanking wise they would be about the same, the pet losing out on the guard specials.  But thats where the comparison ends.

Stop comparing guards to other classes and stick with fixing your mitigation issues.  If you want to hammer a point home and quite possibly get some results, stay with a mild mitigation plate boost and have its effects increased for plate classes.  That is where you have a chance to succeed in your attempts at change.

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Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.

[Shizzirri]

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JBoot wrote:

Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.

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If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.

[JBo]

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Shizzirri wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.

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If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.

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Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.

[Kell]

What is really impressive about the pet is that he can pull from huge distance (even farther than the original entrench) and the pet’s aggro control.  The pet’s taunt is an AOE taunt……and it is CLEARLY superior to mine.  I have Protect at Adept 3 and MD at master 2.  The pet’s AOE taunt is still waaaaay more effective than mine.

I want HIS taunt what do I have to do to get that?

 

I don’t mind that my solo abilities are 1/10 of other classes….

I don’t mind that my PVP/duel abilities are mediocre….

I don’t care who can solo heroic mobs……

I don’t mind having low DPS……

I don’t mind having less “utility” than other classes….

 

I should be able to tank/taunt better than someone’s pet!

 

….on the bright side,  I have gotten a ton of use out of the offensive stance and a nice two-hander.   Here’s to looking at the back of the mobs!  Cheers!

[Edyil]

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JBoot wrote:

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Shizzirri wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.

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If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.

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Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.

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Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

[JBo]

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Edyil wrote:

Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

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The truth is this combat revamp has screwed up all of the plate tank classes. Sure if you only play mage now and then, you won't play your pet well. 

[Kell]

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Edyil wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

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Shizzirri wrote:

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JBoot wrote:

Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.

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If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.

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Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.

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Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

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Proof, well I don't know what I could provide, other than saying try it yourself.  You say you play a conjurer sometimes.  The take out the earth pet (adept3), have the group buff him and the healers target him, and send him off! 

I am now a 51 Guard thanks to this strategy.  We have used it the last few nights and it works VERY well.  The best part is IF the pet dies, I don't get debt or repair costs!

 

-Pet Buffer

[JBo]

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Edyil wrote:


Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

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Yes, all plate tank classes need a mitigation bonus. We don't want to get any classes nerfed, unless we have no other choices.

 

Message Edited by JBoot on 09-21-2005 09:47 PM

[Kell]

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JBoot wrote:

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Edyil wrote:


Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

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Yes, all plate tank classes need a mitigation bonus. We don't want to get any classes nerfed, unless we have no other choices.

 

Message Edited by JBoot on 09-21-2005 09:47 PM

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I agree with you Jboot.  I am not asking for a change to the conjurer or to the pets.  I have stated several times I do care about the pet, only that in comparison to him I am a weaker choice.  If i wanted to cause trouble for the conjurers I would go post in their forums.

 

 

[Steve11418]

Hi all, 47 Guard here... I theam up with a 47 Furry and a 47 Necro. Standard stradergy now is let the pet tank. (he does as good a job as me taunting... maybe go's down faster than me though) Furry Heals pet Nero Heals pet I Hit monster in the back. If the pet dies.. Neros hits the play dead button.. I hit the rescue button... Furry starts healing me for remainder of fight. Against 3 x  Orange ^ the pet normaly ends up in the red.... somtimes dies... the rest of the time its normaly fine. BTW Furry can deal the damage now... he is like a mini Warlock that can heal

[Ykryo]

51 Guardian here...

I grouped with some folks finishing the second stage of the carpet quest.  While out killing the large spectre ghosts by the bay I asked that they let the Necromancer's pet try tanking one after watching him offtank one of the add's with little problem and how much effort it took to peel anything off the pet...

The pet starts pulling .. no more adds

The pet consistantly makes it back to camp with about the same health I was

Once in camp, the pet appeared to take *slightly* more of a beating than I was but the Templar still had very few problems keeping up.

The end result was that things died far quicker than they had previously and just felt a lot easier.  It was *very* difficult to peel things off the pet so folks(including me) really opened up offensively.   The one or two times the pet died (and nobody cared!) I grabbed aggro with Rescue and finished the job.

I must admit it was a bit depressing to play secondary tank to a pet.

 

[Aethane]

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SkarlSpeedbump wrote:

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Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it.

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OMG! dude you have to post some video of this.  I can't even do backflips with pajamas on.

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It was done on Mail Call on the discovery channel during prime time TV. Sorry you are out of shape.

Message Edited by Aethane on 09-27-2005 06:50 AM

[Sixmai]

Well in the terrible situation we are facing, the devs fortunately let us a few remedy : If you remove your shield, your weapon, and use form of the rook, you can pretend to be a earth pet ! Uber for the Guardian to get a group. Berserker have to use their fluff spell which put them on fire, and using a wand to cast, they can pretend to be a fire pet. Paladin are quite ok since they can heal the pets ! But the true shaft, as usual, is for the Shadowknight, they can no more pretend to be a necro pet, since the dev nerfed their skeleton form :smileysad:.