DoF Combat Changes Feedback (Guardians ONLY) - Page 2

Seth · 09-14-2005, 06:18 PM

Ok; major nerf.

I was in the entrance or Permafrost from my last day of Freedom (12th) and camped, after a trio of me a templar and a conjuror could kill 3 heroic mobs added and survive.

I log on the 13th and find myself with 2k HP less, 500 mitigation less, 20% avoidance less, less damage, worse taunts, worse parry.

I tried to go to the Everfrost docks...died 4 times. 4 times...

Wow.

I can't run away from mobs. See, even though you resist the damage from a stun attack, guess you dont resist the stun. Therefore, even though you dont get damaged, you can't run away. Since your avoidance is shot in both legs, you get hit all the time, therefore get stunned all the time, there fore die a lot.

I can't outrun mobs with sprint now either, even if I run past them from far, they catch up [Removed for Content] me and eat my balls. It's humiliating. It cost me 10gold in repair in the first 45 minutes of playing to run accross a zone...

Yes, we got a major nerf stick. Avoidance is now way better than mitigation.

Airog · 09-14-2005, 06:23 PM

smckean wrote:

1) Did our damage really got better?

Yes, i beleive it has. My damage output is up comared to prior.

2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena?

Dont know, and frankly.. dont care. PVP is the last thing i think of in EQ2.

3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap?

Most likely, yes.

4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed?

No nerfing here as i see it. Just changing the way the class is played.

Any suggestion are also really appreciated.

Thank you

No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid

Pry · 09-14-2005, 06:24 PM

50 Guardian here. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to play in the Beta, and saw the way that combat had changed and didn't like it at all. And despite massive complaining about it, they made up their minds that this combat system was "better". Makes you wonder if they even play these characters at all.

I don't understand the concept of changing things so that they are shells of what they previously were. I never understood the *need* for combat changes whatsoever. It makes me sick that I wasted all that time leveling up a now completely useless character.

Anyway, so the combat changes and the game play mechanics (kill 7000 mobs for 1% xp philosophy) made me put some serious contemplation on what I wanted to do. When I realized that there was really nothing fun about Desert of Flames, I caved into long standing pressure from my friends to give another game a try that begins and ends in the letter W. And despite the graphic toon deficiencies, that place is a lot more fun.

So you can just add me to the throngs of people who have already left I suppose, and I would offer you my stuff but I don't think you want that now pile of junk! SMILEY

Shizzirri · 09-14-2005, 06:24 PM

In my groups last night I still avoided most of my attacks and totally mitigated some as well, and this was on orange +++ mobs...

Even killed an epic x2 mob in god knows where, other than the initial taunt being resisted on incoming the fight went fine, I held aggro, etc.

As for dps, we're guardians...

And I love what they did to rescue.

Aandien · 09-14-2005, 06:25 PM

I think overall the changes worked out well in a group situation.

I was in beta so I had some time to work with the changes and figure things out.

My primary advice to those that are having difficulty maintaining aggro -- just work with it some and re-think the order at which you use skills.

Maddening defense is great -- especially when you get multiple encounters. It shouldn't be necessary though on single group encounters.

It is of course, possible now for other classes to steal aggro from encounter mobs if they aren't careful -- so give those folks some time also to adjust. Some other classes get some very very powerful ae abilities now that can take aggro in a heartbeat if they use it before you have time to do at least both of your ae taunts.

Aggro control is a group effort as it should be. So if your losing aggro, look to see what you can improve in your game, and also, look to your groupmates to see if they can make some adjustments.

I was maintaining aggro on single encounters without using maddening defense while our DPS was exceeding 450dps on those same encounters. So it is doable. It requires effort on more than one person though to do it.

SGho · 09-14-2005, 06:30 PM

Level 50 Guardian, casual player, mainly soloer, no fabled gear here.

From my point of view (which can differ depending upon how you play) it was a major nerf. Mobs that were gray to me before the patch are now green and eat me alive (wolf packs in EF are a prime example).

I'm not giving up yet, but I'm leaning that way. Here's the things I have issues with so far:

- The slam line are now on the same timer which they didnt' used to be before. Re-use timer is now 60 seconds.

- Retaliate has been cut down in damage and is still on a 60 second timer. (on a personal note, I bought this at Adept III level and it's now a waste of money)

- Debuffs have been removed from the all attacks and taunts - we can no longer stifle at all (unless I missed something with the new abilities) and the slow component was removed. (examples - Cleave and Swamp are now damage only, Deafen interupts but no longer slows)

- The Do or Die line no longer stacks as it used to and Barksan's was removed.

- Because I solo, I don't have any fabled. Therefore my mitigation is lower than average and was lower than the 50 Paladin I grouped with last night.

- Gaining aggro was almost impossible without rooting myself and using the new Hold the Line upgrade (which I took at Master II). Taunts otherwise seem to be a waste of time since I can't do enough damage to compensate and without rooting myself, I couldn't pull aggro for the life of me if I did nothing but spam taunts. I think this is because heal=aggro, damage=aggro, taunts that are resisted don't give aggro :/

(note - I had Shouting Cry at Master I since it was the only taunt that could be used on epic mobs, so I think in re-spec there was a taunt upgrade I didn't take and probably should have - will check into that when I respec again)

Overall, self-buffed I'm down about 1500 hp and my ability to solo has been greatly reduced due to a combination of the increased range of aggro mobs (ones that were gray are now green) and the loss of debuffs/mitigation.

Again, I'm not giving up yet, but if my solo game is dead, then I'm probably going to cancel. Mainly, I think, I'm disappointed in the increased mob level aggro range. I worked hard to get to the point where I didn't have to worry about level 42 wolves and such, but now just /getting/ to where I can solo is a nightmare SMILEY

Iwand · 09-14-2005, 06:38 PM

I am a 39th lvl guardian who plays with a group of friends for fun. This game is not a competitive sport for us. We don’t spend 40 hours a week looking for the best way to improve our DPS by 1 point. We just want to have a good time and escape into a fantasy world once a week. We are by definition casual players and the bottom line is this nerf has put most of us off.

(Before the EQ is lifers out there say good riddance remember that without the money from the casual gamers EQ2 could only afford to be another Shadowsbane. It takes a lot of money to support a team capable of producing a game like this. More money then the 200 or so hard core players per server could generate)

Now to the rant:

I don’t know how things worked in raid level encounters and frankly don’t care. If there was a problem there the fix should have been there.

Soloing was already weak for guardians because of how long it took to do damage to mobs, now it’s almost impossible or at the very least impractical. Grouping may or may not still work, I will have to wait and see, but it will be greatly changed and from what I saw yesterday I don’t think it will be fun any more. Unless you play this game with the scripted optimal team set up (1 tank, 1 healer, blah blah blah) Guardians just became very boring to play. If a guardian can not take agro better than its team mates and it can not soak up damage better than its team mates and it does almost no damage compared to its team mates Then there is no fun in playing the character (I do want to contribute something. It is not fun spending 4 hours watching other people do something. If that was what I wanted I would go watch TV )

If things are as bad as they look and stay this way for long (fortunately none of the other “fixes” did) Sony just lost another 12 accounts. (My group plus family mambers)We've switched games before and all know we will have to again some day. If its sooner than later.... Some other game will let us have fun.

Valdemar of Blackburrow

Gaige · 09-14-2005, 06:39 PM

Airoguy wrote:

No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid

Everyone's are down. Every single player, despite class and all NPCs. So its not so much a nerf, as a restructuring. /shrug

CattaeORoss · 09-14-2005, 06:48 PM

OK, I am seeing 45+ posts but nothing lower. So, here goes. I logged in for all of like ten minutes last night, but I will tell what happened. I am a 33 guardian, with average gear. I am in the class of 'Casual Player' I suppose, since I tend to solo most often. My gear is mostly Feyiron, nothing fancy cause I can not afford it. I got my [Removed for Content] handed to me by a level 24 gnoll in Thundering Steppes. Was not even a close fight, as it landed every hit, and HARD. I can see that most every post has been about grouped, with only a few about solo play. For those of us that do not like to sit around for several hours looking for a group, solo play is nice. Granted we level slower and get crap for loot, but at least we could have some relaxing fun. This CHANGE has in effect made my character unplayable now. How can a solo green mob hit me like a ^^ orange mob? My DPS was low enough before, but now it is cut AND I was missing about 40%of the time. And no, I do not think I should be able to take out groups of orange cons with ease. A single orange mob I should be able to have a good close fight with though, with it going either way. If it kills me, so be it. If I win, I should not see my health in the green or yellow but rather orange or red. I never said I want it easy, just that things should be doable.

IMHO, we got the NERF BAT used on us.

Yahk · 09-14-2005, 06:48 PM

Our DPS is way up IMO. Yes our big nuke is smaller, but have you used BLAST yet? That baby is hitting for 600-700 at Adept I. Gonna be upgrading that one. tremor is no longer a dot, but hits the whole area for 350+. Throw in the offensive stance and I was owning 52^ solo mobs with ease and HP in the green. Recast timers are smaller, and the power used is cut in half. I can spam abilities as fast as I want and won't run out of power.

Holding Agro. Well, this is more of a challenge...mainly because they took our best hate producers (Group buffs) and made them toggles. Gone are the days of me casting group buffs as their timer expired to hold aggro. Now I get a one shot deal at the beginning, and then it's just Commanding presence. Gonna have to get used to rooting myself again. SMILEY Not bad, just different. You may or may not have noticed, but whoever pulls seems to get a hate bonus. Occaisonally we'd have the pet pull and it was dang near impossible to pull agro off of him. Weird.

My stats are way different now, but I'm not sure what affect that will have on me yet. My HP is way down even though my Stamina is up. Yet I seem to be able to handle more hits now...Mitigation is better. Get a Mystic in your group now too. Their wards take mitigation into account now, and I stood there getting pounded on for 2 minutes and never took a hit...nice.

Overall, I'm indifferent on the changes. I find most solo encounters easier now, but I have to work to keep agro a little bit more now in groups. Not better or worse...just different. Haven't grouped with a zerker yet, so I'm not sure of the issues there...will have to try it.

Yahk · 09-14-2005, 07:00 PM

We did NOT get nerfed...We got changed. You stat fiends are looking at your numbers and going OMG!. But you fail to take into account that the mobs also got those changes. I think you guys just got spoiled with being able to kill orange heroics solo pre patch. Keep in mind that con actually matters now. If that nice puppy over their is yellow and heroic....he will own your solo {Ninja}.

Change is good, Variety is the spice of life. Re-learn your character and have fun. I am. Did I die a few times? Yes, and it was fun learning how to avoid that in the future.

OB Tip: In a group - Pull the mob with no group buffs on you. Deafen, Protect, Taunting challenge, then cast all of your group buffs...Commanding presence third, the two fast cast ones first. Then Deafen, and the 2 taunting attack ones. Then if necessary cast your HTL and beat on him. Protect again when it comes up. You will NOT lose agro.

Zylokr · 09-14-2005, 07:07 PM

I would not worry as much as you guys are, do you really think soe is gonna let you rot, they will patch and fix and refix blah blah till its something reasonable, as for mobs hitting to hard i believe they never fixed some of those errors in beta and test, specially for zones outside of dof.

Vorling611 · 09-14-2005, 07:16 PM

It just feels good to vent a little. Every other Online game I've played has gone through the whole balance/re-balance thing. Where one class is to strong so everyone cry's NERF till that one is nerfed and another class gets strong and same thing happens.

If it comes down to it and they don't fix it then my guardian will make a good mule and hold lots of stuff for me until he is unnerfed and can play again. I do have a lot of other character slots I can play I guess. It's just a shame if it comes to that. I've put a lot of time and effort into leveling this guy up and equiping him. And I really love playing a MT.

Time will tell.

Tobann · 09-14-2005, 08:26 PM

Well I thought Id throw in my 2 cents worth. Granted this is based on only 2 hours of play with the new system. I respecd my abilities for fortitude and agility and defence. Got rid of the spells that no longer stack ( went from having 4 full hotbars up to partially filled 3 hotbars), and tried to solo in Splitpaw.The hideout and harclaves went from being a fun way to spend an hour or 2, to a fun way to die in about 10 minutes. The single MOB's went down fine and I could see some improvement in dps with the offensive stance. Multiple mobs, blue with double down arrows, owned my good. Had 4 deaths in the first hour....kinds expensive repair costs.One good thing is I could finally kill the pit champion where I couldnt before, the group of 3 slaves that comes before the Champ were much harder than the Champ himself. To me it seems the solo route will be less fun and less doable than it was. I havent tried grouping yet,that is for tonight. If it is as tough as the solo I will probably try another charecter. I think it is possible that you will see a lot fewer guardians across all servers soon. the sad part is that no one may miss us at all. Tobann 47 Guardian

WarShe · 09-14-2005, 09:18 PM

2) I can tell you from personal experiance in Team PvP my guardian was able to kill 2 casters, with out his weapon equiped lol.

Wasuna · 09-14-2005, 11:22 PM

I wasn't able to play much since I'm on AB but what I found out is:

If you run around without your defensive stance your gonna get [Removed for Content].

I was able to kill level 47 ^ gators which feels about right for what I should be able to do.

I am going to feedback and petition the stiffel I get on me every single fight. The fights with the group of level 45ish 2-3 triple down arrows can kill me dead. They have such a high chance to hit me and all of them can sitffle me. I end up stiffled 90% of the fight and only using melee swings to kill them.

I usually go around in small groups and was able to kill some yellow ^ 51-52 singles with just my wife a 50 assassin so things seemed OK. If we had a healer we could have done a yellow ^^ pretty easily.

Arsen · 09-14-2005, 11:30 PM

1. Tough to say since everyones damage and hitpoints changed a lot. It will take a while to see the comparisons. 2. I pwned a 50 Necro in about 10 seconds. I also beat a 50 Zerker without too much trouble (I was in defensive stance with SBS and SM), he had a Great Royal Flail and was likely in his offensive stance. I also fought a 50 Inquisitor to a draw - we fought a long time and both had screaming maces... She almost had me, but then once she ran out of power, I was able to regen health faster than she could hurt me and her mace was able to proc enough power to keep her healed as fast as I could hurt her... we finally called it a draw SMILEY

3. More defense is always better. Defense does not matter as much any more though and level + gear is more significant. 4. I feel we got balanced but it will really take some time to evaluate us against other classes. One thing for sure though - GEAR and CA Upgrades are now very meaningful. The players that diligently upgrade are going to have a much easier time of it. I believe this will come more into balance as LEGEDARY level gear becomes more available and easier to obtain. Characters in HANDCRAFTED and TREASURED gear will find the going much tougher until they can start getting more upgrades.

Joos · 09-15-2005, 12:50 AM

Scuzlebutt wrote:

In a group with just about any healer, I can't tell that much of a difference. Duoing or trioing with out a buffer/healer type, I am dead meat. The neat new login screen tells me I've played 26 days now on my guardian, and I loved every minute of it. Too bad thats over. I wont be wasting my time on another char just to have it become usless when the next big change happens.

Buffs replacing mitigation is great if you plan on 2 boxing. Oh, Hey! Whatya know! You can power lvl your self a Templar now!

We hates the SOE.......... We hates it!.... FOREVER!

Inquisitor here checking the temp of the other classes on the combat changes and couldn't help noticing this.

BTW - Interesting that there is a ADD ACCOUNT button on the login screen, I am sure SoE is not going to encourage and support PL :smileysurprised:

a6eaq · 09-15-2005, 12:51 AM

I read the updates notes from Monday, and in them they stated that Fighter autoattack DPS was slightly higher than Scouts, but our CA DPS was lower than Scouts (Sorry forgot to get link, oops). I think our DPS is a little better autoattack than everyone thinks it is.

If you didn't pick Maddening Defense as your MAster 2 at lvl 44 then you made a mistake as far aas holding aggro goes. When I had it up, I never lost agro once we were fully engaged with the mob. If the Fury in the group cast something on me prior to my taunt after a bow pull, the mob would target him, but 1 use of deafen (Adept 3) would bring him back in on me. Cast MD bam, never loose aggro. It was good enough that I caould actually use a lot of CAs and taunt less. I tried to loose aggro with MD up and it was possible, but I had to almost stop taunting. So far, I like the changes, but I have only got to play for a few hours, so who knows, might hate it by Sunday.

And if anyone was wondering, I had a 50 Fury, 50 Paly, 50 Zerker, and a 45 Wiz in the group. I will say this much, if a caster gets a little too enthusiastic, you will loose aggro period. That is what the devs had in mind I think. So, if you think we can't taunt anymore and hold aggro, better check that healer/caster and make sure they are being patient. The game plays more like EQ in that reguard, they can't nuke nuke nuke and expect us to keep the mobs attention, after all, would you keep on the tank of a group if you started getting nuked or the tank kept getting healed? I think not. MHO

Nibbl · 09-15-2005, 01:18 AM

Solo stats, using mostly legendary gear (ebon), and legendary weps, and legendary shield!

Pre DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll:
70-80% health remaining, 15-25% power remaining w/o shield

Post DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll:
20-30% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/o shield
25-35% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/shield

Seems we traded health for power. I didn’t see a large difference with my shield either, although this is probably more of a factor in groups.

Mobs seem to drop faster, which gives the appearance of better DPS. But my guess is mobs have much less HP, will have to parse DPS out to compare, haven’t done that yet. Con system seems messed up also, notice this more with my alts that can solo harder mobs. I can kill mobs quicker, but my health drops faster as well, I get hit more often.

First impression of the combat revamp…. Not Impressed! I feel like a "spongy guardian troll", a "big ugly nerf" that is! :smileysad:

I have a 48 Warden as well, hate the changes for wardens. However, my 42 necro rocks after the revamp, SOE gave necromancers some love. I see my guardian and warden gathering some dust, my necro is going to be my primary toon now.

Oh, and I have to play on my old P3 1ghz computer. My new computer, a P4 3ghz, doesn’t like the DoF patch, unplayable due to many many graphics problems and extreme lag. It use to play EQ2 very well, not any more.

Groll, Level 48 Guardian, BB (hates revamp):robotmad:
Sithero Level 48 Warden, BB (what the hell hit me, oh LU#13):smileymad:
Nibblar Level 42 Necromancer, BB (Loves LU#13):smileyvery-happy:

Sheridan-Guk · 09-15-2005, 03:59 AM

Here's some background before my feedback.

I spent about 9 hours playing last night. I took the time to study my respec and pick the skills that would maximize my defense and HP. I went through my spellbook and hotbars and figured out what stacked and what was on common timers. I am a 50 guardian that shares the MT role in a casual raiding guild. I think I'm geared up above average. I am in full ebon, with a fabled shield, prismatic longsword, legendary activated slots, and legendary jewelry. I chose Master II Maddening Defense. I have 3 Adept 3 taunts (4 if you count the no longer useable Shouting Cry) and 1 Adept 1 taunt. My Defensive Stance is Adept 3. Last night I solo'd, grouped, and took down Broog (52 Epic X 2) twice.

Let me start out by saying that pre-CU I could tank and solo multiple blue heroic encounters at once. Many times I would still be in the green afterwards. I couldn't do that in lesser gear, but I did get to that point in my character's progression. I think its fair to say that I needed a nerf. However, I really feel like this was overdone.

Pro

Maddening Defense is an awesome upgrade, especially considering that we get hit a lot more now. Its great for raid mobs, power draining mobs, and multiple mobs. Because of the root effect, I just wish it weren't required for exp groups.
Buffs stay up. I'm no longer trying to maintain 4 buffs that all have the same 1-min timer and expire every 10 minutes.
Rescue actually works now. Really well. I wish the timer were more like 5 minutes, but its better than 30.

Con

Aggro is now considerably less in comparison to my group members. Before, I could cycle through 6 taunts and really lock a mob down. A wizard could chain nukes and HOs and not get aggro. Now, it is difficult to maintain aggro in a fast-paced experience group. Maddening defense helps a lot, but it is a serious pita to use when you're pulling for the group or trying to crawl through a dungeon.
I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark.
Experience is ungodly slow.
Mage pets are able to tank more effectively than me. Aggro, ae aggro, dps, and hp.
If someone pulls aggro, it is more difficult to regain. Once the mob turns, you lose the Maddening Defense aggro. We have fewer taunts to work with and the ones we have are on long timers. Rescue helps, but it should be situational at best.

My opinion? Nerf.

Welcome to the return of the 1-shot mob. Broog has a CA called Boulder throw that does 4500 crush one round and 3500 the next. It also drains all of your power. Yes, we managed to kill him twice, despite that. Still, there's many guardians that will need a change of underwear after tanking him for the first time.

You've heard of someone getting hit with the ugly stick? How about someone falling out of the ugly tree and hitting every branch on the way down? Guardians just fell out of the nerf tree, in my opinion.

Mastoras · 09-15-2005, 05:41 AM

Guk good points, i agree with what you posted. Guardians still need more work.......i highly doubt were done as far as tweaking.

Chog · 09-15-2005, 06:09 AM

Sheridan-Guk wrote:

Con

I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark.

Berserkers only have 3 taunts: Single target / Group / Taunting Blow line (not including Hold the line or rescue). So Guardians still have more taunts then other fighters.

Raahl · 09-15-2005, 07:55 AM

Hmm I had issues keeping aggro tonight. I used my AE taunt, single taunt, rescue and the taunting blow one.

I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing.

What happened to all of our buffs? I use to be able to toss off 4 or so to help with aggro, now I'm lucky to have 2.

What am I missing?

Chog · 09-15-2005, 09:39 AM

Raahl wrote:

I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing.

Although not a Guardian (Berserker), we have a similar HTL line of spells. I would suggest putting the HTL skill on your hotbar in an easy to reach location. I use this skill on a routine basis now, the casting time is non-existant and there is no refresh. For multiple mob encounters with AoE casters in your group HTL is almost required to maintain agro control.

Arsen · 09-15-2005, 11:03 AM

Yup, HTL is basically a requirement for most fights - if everything goes well and you have a chance to establish aggro, it works beautifully. Good luck getting aggro back if you loose though it unless you pop Rescue on them - our taunts just do not have much pull. The only non-taunt skill that seems to generate any significant hate is Crush and that is on a minute timer.

Finedo · 09-15-2005, 11:26 AM

Just dinged lvl 51 only problem i had but no more was the agro issue tell i learnt how to adjust to a new skill of holding agro. I dont solo i group and having fun with new changes exploring different ways of tanking again. PvP i knew was going to suck for a Guard just like war in EQ but i never ever made a guard for PvP thats just stupid i made one too tank raids. So far in general the one beef i have is i constantly run out of power due to the fact it cost alot of power to mantain agro in a group set up. I am always out of power when everyone elese in group is fine. been asked many times do you need drink and i laugh.

Message Edited by Finedorf on 09-15-2005 12:31 AM

Raahl · 09-15-2005, 04:52 PM

Thanks Chogar and Arsenal.

Does clicking on the HTL skill a second time cancel it or do I have to cancel it from the maintain/spell bar?

I will give this a shot tonight and see how things go.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-15-2005 08:53 AM

WarShe · 09-15-2005, 05:07 PM

Had the most fun in game last night and its partly due to the changes.

I had the chance to dual a Paladin who was the same level as me, the fight lasted a few minutes and was close but in the end I won barely.

So knowing that I can run a pally out of mana and then finish him off and it still be a good fight I have to say these where all good changes,

I may have had a little longer to get used to the changes since I was in beta but even there I soloed a caimen on SS which was a blue con abd was able to beat it with No weapon attuned lol.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/WDarthMaul/Combat+01.jpg

Sounds like maybe a few people are trying to fight some thing they shouldnt be any more? the con system has changes also, No one can do stuff they Used to any more which to me thats common sence, it seems to be working fine our auto attack doesnt decide if we win or lose now its our skills and their quality.

Pry · 09-15-2005, 05:10 PM

I just want to say that having to use HTL in XP groups to keep aggro is inane. Really, is there turpentine on the menu at the SOE Commisarry?

09-14-2005, 06:23 PM	#32
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	smckean wrote: 1) Did our damage really got better? Yes, i beleive it has. My damage output is up comared to prior. 2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena? Dont know, and frankly.. dont care. PVP is the last thing i think of in EQ2. 3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap? Most likely, yes. 4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed? No nerfing here as i see it. Just changing the way the class is played. Any suggestion are also really appreciated. Thank you No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid

09-14-2005, 06:25 PM	#35
Aandien Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 200	I think overall the changes worked out well in a group situation. I was in beta so I had some time to work with the changes and figure things out. My primary advice to those that are having difficulty maintaining aggro -- just work with it some and re-think the order at which you use skills. Maddening defense is great -- especially when you get multiple encounters. It shouldn't be necessary though on single group encounters. It is of course, possible now for other classes to steal aggro from encounter mobs if they aren't careful -- so give those folks some time also to adjust. Some other classes get some very very powerful ae abilities now that can take aggro in a heartbeat if they use it before you have time to do at least both of your ae taunts. Aggro control is a group effort as it should be. So if your losing aggro, look to see what you can improve in your game, and also, look to your groupmates to see if they can make some adjustments. I was maintaining aggro on single encounters without using maddening defense while our DPS was exceeding 450dps on those same encounters. So it is doable. It requires effort on more than one person though to do it. __________________ -Aandien

09-14-2005, 06:38 PM	#37
Iwand Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	I am a 39th lvl guardian who plays with a group of friends for fun. This game is not a competitive sport for us. We don’t spend 40 hours a week looking for the best way to improve our DPS by 1 point. We just want to have a good time and escape into a fantasy world once a week. We are by definition casual players and the bottom line is this nerf has put most of us off. (Before the EQ is lifers out there say good riddance remember that without the money from the casual gamers EQ2 could only afford to be another Shadowsbane. It takes a lot of money to support a team capable of producing a game like this. More money then the 200 or so hard core players per server could generate) Now to the rant: I don’t know how things worked in raid level encounters and frankly don’t care. If there was a problem there the fix should have been there. Soloing was already weak for guardians because of how long it took to do damage to mobs, now it’s almost impossible or at the very least impractical. Grouping may or may not still work, I will have to wait and see, but it will be greatly changed and from what I saw yesterday I don’t think it will be fun any more. Unless you play this game with the scripted optimal team set up (1 tank, 1 healer, blah blah blah) Guardians just became very boring to play. If a guardian can not take agro better than its team mates and it can not soak up damage better than its team mates and it does almost no damage compared to its team mates Then there is no fun in playing the character (I do want to contribute something. It is not fun spending 4 hours watching other people do something. If that was what I wanted I would go watch TV ) If things are as bad as they look and stay this way for long (fortunately none of the other “fixes” did) Sony just lost another 12 accounts. (My group plus family mambers)We've switched games before and all know we will have to again some day. If its sooner than later.... Some other game will let us have fun. Valdemar of Blackburrow

09-14-2005, 06:39 PM	#38
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Airoguy wrote: No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid Everyone's are down. Every single player, despite class and all NPCs. So its not so much a nerf, as a restructuring. /shrug __________________

09-14-2005, 06:48 PM	#40
Yahk Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 18	Our DPS is way up IMO. Yes our big nuke is smaller, but have you used BLAST yet? That baby is hitting for 600-700 at Adept I. Gonna be upgrading that one. tremor is no longer a dot, but hits the whole area for 350+. Throw in the offensive stance and I was owning 52^ solo mobs with ease and HP in the green. Recast timers are smaller, and the power used is cut in half. I can spam abilities as fast as I want and won't run out of power. Holding Agro. Well, this is more of a challenge...mainly because they took our best hate producers (Group buffs) and made them toggles. Gone are the days of me casting group buffs as their timer expired to hold aggro. Now I get a one shot deal at the beginning, and then it's just Commanding presence. Gonna have to get used to rooting myself again. Not bad, just different. You may or may not have noticed, but whoever pulls seems to get a hate bonus. Occaisonally we'd have the pet pull and it was dang near impossible to pull agro off of him. Weird. My stats are way different now, but I'm not sure what affect that will have on me yet. My HP is way down even though my Stamina is up. Yet I seem to be able to handle more hits now...Mitigation is better. Get a Mystic in your group now too. Their wards take mitigation into account now, and I stood there getting pounded on for 2 minutes and never took a hit...nice. Overall, I'm indifferent on the changes. I find most solo encounters easier now, but I have to work to keep agro a little bit more now in groups. Not better or worse...just different. Haven't grouped with a zerker yet, so I'm not sure of the issues there...will have to try it. __________________

09-14-2005, 06:18 PM	#31
Seth General Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New-Brunswick, Canada Posts: 28	Ok; major nerf. I was in the entrance or Permafrost from my last day of Freedom (12th) and camped, after a trio of me a templar and a conjuror could kill 3 heroic mobs added and survive. I log on the 13th and find myself with 2k HP less, 500 mitigation less, 20% avoidance less, less damage, worse taunts, worse parry. I tried to go to the Everfrost docks...died 4 times. 4 times... Wow. I can't run away from mobs. See, even though you resist the damage from a stun attack, guess you dont resist the stun. Therefore, even though you dont get damaged, you can't run away. Since your avoidance is shot in both legs, you get hit all the time, therefore get stunned all the time, there fore die a lot. I can't outrun mobs with sprint now either, even if I run past them from far, they catch up [Removed for Content] me and eat my balls. It's humiliating. It cost me 10gold in repair in the first 45 minutes of playing to run accross a zone... Yes, we got a major nerf stick. Avoidance is now way better than mitigation.

09-14-2005, 06:24 PM	#33
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	50 Guardian here. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to play in the Beta, and saw the way that combat had changed and didn't like it at all. And despite massive complaining about it, they made up their minds that this combat system was "better". Makes you wonder if they even play these characters at all. I don't understand the concept of changing things so that they are shells of what they previously were. I never understood the need for combat changes whatsoever. It makes me sick that I wasted all that time leveling up a now completely useless character. Anyway, so the combat changes and the game play mechanics (kill 7000 mobs for 1% xp philosophy) made me put some serious contemplation on what I wanted to do. When I realized that there was really nothing fun about Desert of Flames, I caved into long standing pressure from my friends to give another game a try that begins and ends in the letter W. And despite the graphic toon deficiencies, that place is a lot more fun. So you can just add me to the throngs of people who have already left I suppose, and I would offer you my stuff but I don't think you want that now pile of junk!

09-14-2005, 06:24 PM	#34
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	In my groups last night I still avoided most of my attacks and totally mitigated some as well, and this was on orange +++ mobs... Even killed an epic x2 mob in god knows where, other than the initial taunt being resisted on incoming the fight went fine, I held aggro, etc. As for dps, we're guardians... And I love what they did to rescue.

09-14-2005, 06:30 PM	#36
SGho Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 49	Level 50 Guardian, casual player, mainly soloer, no fabled gear here. From my point of view (which can differ depending upon how you play) it was a major nerf. Mobs that were gray to me before the patch are now green and eat me alive (wolf packs in EF are a prime example). I'm not giving up yet, but I'm leaning that way. Here's the things I have issues with so far: - The slam line are now on the same timer which they didnt' used to be before. Re-use timer is now 60 seconds. - Retaliate has been cut down in damage and is still on a 60 second timer. (on a personal note, I bought this at Adept III level and it's now a waste of money) - Debuffs have been removed from the all attacks and taunts - we can no longer stifle at all (unless I missed something with the new abilities) and the slow component was removed. (examples - Cleave and Swamp are now damage only, Deafen interupts but no longer slows) - The Do or Die line no longer stacks as it used to and Barksan's was removed. - Because I solo, I don't have any fabled. Therefore my mitigation is lower than average and was lower than the 50 Paladin I grouped with last night. - Gaining aggro was almost impossible without rooting myself and using the new Hold the Line upgrade (which I took at Master II). Taunts otherwise seem to be a waste of time since I can't do enough damage to compensate and without rooting myself, I couldn't pull aggro for the life of me if I did nothing but spam taunts. I think this is because heal=aggro, damage=aggro, taunts that are resisted don't give aggro :/ (note - I had Shouting Cry at Master I since it was the only taunt that could be used on epic mobs, so I think in re-spec there was a taunt upgrade I didn't take and probably should have - will check into that when I respec again) Overall, self-buffed I'm down about 1500 hp and my ability to solo has been greatly reduced due to a combination of the increased range of aggro mobs (ones that were gray are now green) and the loss of debuffs/mitigation. Again, I'm not giving up yet, but if my solo game is dead, then I'm probably going to cancel. Mainly, I think, I'm disappointed in the increased mob level aggro range. I worked hard to get to the point where I didn't have to worry about level 42 wolves and such, but now just /getting/ to where I can solo is a nightmare

09-14-2005, 06:48 PM	#39
CattaeORoss Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	OK, I am seeing 45+ posts but nothing lower. So, here goes. I logged in for all of like ten minutes last night, but I will tell what happened. I am a 33 guardian, with average gear. I am in the class of 'Casual Player' I suppose, since I tend to solo most often. My gear is mostly Feyiron, nothing fancy cause I can not afford it. I got my [Removed for Content] handed to me by a level 24 gnoll in Thundering Steppes. Was not even a close fight, as it landed every hit, and HARD. I can see that most every post has been about grouped, with only a few about solo play. For those of us that do not like to sit around for several hours looking for a group, solo play is nice. Granted we level slower and get crap for loot, but at least we could have some relaxing fun. This CHANGE has in effect made my character unplayable now. How can a solo green mob hit me like a ^^ orange mob? My DPS was low enough before, but now it is cut AND I was missing about 40%of the time. And no, I do not think I should be able to take out groups of orange cons with ease. A single orange mob I should be able to have a good close fight with though, with it going either way. If it kills me, so be it. If I win, I should not see my health in the green or yellow but rather orange or red. I never said I want it easy, just that things should be doable. IMHO, we got the NERF BAT used on us.

09-14-2005, 07:00 PM	#41
Yahk Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 18	We did NOT get nerfed...We got changed. You stat fiends are looking at your numbers and going OMG!. But you fail to take into account that the mobs also got those changes. I think you guys just got spoiled with being able to kill orange heroics solo pre patch. Keep in mind that con actually matters now. If that nice puppy over their is yellow and heroic....he will own your solo {Ninja}. Change is good, Variety is the spice of life. Re-learn your character and have fun. I am. Did I die a few times? Yes, and it was fun learning how to avoid that in the future. OB Tip: In a group - Pull the mob with no group buffs on you. Deafen, Protect, Taunting challenge, then cast all of your group buffs...Commanding presence third, the two fast cast ones first. Then Deafen, and the 2 taunting attack ones. Then if necessary cast your HTL and beat on him. Protect again when it comes up. You will NOT lose agro. __________________

09-14-2005, 07:07 PM	#42
Zylokr Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 37	I would not worry as much as you guys are, do you really think soe is gonna let you rot, they will patch and fix and refix blah blah till its something reasonable, as for mobs hitting to hard i believe they never fixed some of those errors in beta and test, specially for zones outside of dof.

09-14-2005, 07:16 PM	#43
Vorling611 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 12	It just feels good to vent a little. Every other Online game I've played has gone through the whole balance/re-balance thing. Where one class is to strong so everyone cry's NERF till that one is nerfed and another class gets strong and same thing happens. If it comes down to it and they don't fix it then my guardian will make a good mule and hold lots of stuff for me until he is unnerfed and can play again. I do have a lot of other character slots I can play I guess. It's just a shame if it comes to that. I've put a lot of time and effort into leveling this guy up and equiping him. And I really love playing a MT. Time will tell. __________________ Vorling Level 70 Guardian, Befallen Server Vorlord Level 60 Warlock, Befallen Server Officer of Dark Children of Lucan

09-14-2005, 08:26 PM	#44
Tobann Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 176	Well I thought Id throw in my 2 cents worth. Granted this is based on only 2 hours of play with the new system. I respecd my abilities for fortitude and agility and defence. Got rid of the spells that no longer stack ( went from having 4 full hotbars up to partially filled 3 hotbars), and tried to solo in Splitpaw.The hideout and harclaves went from being a fun way to spend an hour or 2, to a fun way to die in about 10 minutes. The single MOB's went down fine and I could see some improvement in dps with the offensive stance. Multiple mobs, blue with double down arrows, owned my good. Had 4 deaths in the first hour....kinds expensive repair costs.One good thing is I could finally kill the pit champion where I couldnt before, the group of 3 slaves that comes before the Champ were much harder than the Champ himself. To me it seems the solo route will be less fun and less doable than it was. I havent tried grouping yet,that is for tonight. If it is as tough as the solo I will probably try another charecter. I think it is possible that you will see a lot fewer guardians across all servers soon. the sad part is that no one may miss us at all. Tobann 47 Guardian __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/s.../418052201.png

09-14-2005, 09:18 PM	#45
WarShe General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 118	2) I can tell you from personal experiance in Team PvP my guardian was able to kill 2 casters, with out his weapon equiped lol. __________________ Wars - of Antonia Bayle Server. Sect of Sheol - Leader.

09-14-2005, 11:22 PM	#46
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	I wasn't able to play much since I'm on AB but what I found out is: If you run around without your defensive stance your gonna get [Removed for Content]. I was able to kill level 47 ^ gators which feels about right for what I should be able to do. I am going to feedback and petition the stiffel I get on me every single fight. The fights with the group of level 45ish 2-3 triple down arrows can kill me dead. They have such a high chance to hit me and all of them can sitffle me. I end up stiffled 90% of the fight and only using melee swings to kill them. I usually go around in small groups and was able to kill some yellow ^ 51-52 singles with just my wife a 50 assassin so things seemed OK. If we had a healer we could have done a yellow ^^ pretty easily. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

09-14-2005, 11:30 PM	#47
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	1. Tough to say since everyones damage and hitpoints changed a lot. It will take a while to see the comparisons. 2. I pwned a 50 Necro in about 10 seconds. I also beat a 50 Zerker without too much trouble (I was in defensive stance with SBS and SM), he had a Great Royal Flail and was likely in his offensive stance. I also fought a 50 Inquisitor to a draw - we fought a long time and both had screaming maces... She almost had me, but then once she ran out of power, I was able to regen health faster than she could hurt me and her mace was able to proc enough power to keep her healed as fast as I could hurt her... we finally called it a draw 3. More defense is always better. Defense does not matter as much any more though and level + gear is more significant. 4. I feel we got balanced but it will really take some time to evaluate us against other classes. One thing for sure though - GEAR and CA Upgrades are now very meaningful. The players that diligently upgrade are going to have a much easier time of it. I believe this will come more into balance as LEGEDARY level gear becomes more available and easier to obtain. Characters in HANDCRAFTED and TREASURED gear will find the going much tougher until they can start getting more upgrades. __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

09-15-2005, 12:50 AM	#48
Joos Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	Scuzlebutt wrote: In a group with just about any healer, I can't tell that much of a difference. Duoing or trioing with out a buffer/healer type, I am dead meat. The neat new login screen tells me I've played 26 days now on my guardian, and I loved every minute of it. Too bad thats over. I wont be wasting my time on another char just to have it become usless when the next big change happens. Buffs replacing mitigation is great if you plan on 2 boxing. Oh, Hey! Whatya know! You can power lvl your self a Templar now! We hates the SOE.......... We hates it!.... FOREVER! Inquisitor here checking the temp of the other classes on the combat changes and couldn't help noticing this. BTW - Interesting that there is a ADD ACCOUNT button on the login screen, I am sure SoE is not going to encourage and support PL :smileysurprised:

09-15-2005, 12:51 AM	#49
a6eaq Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	I read the updates notes from Monday, and in them they stated that Fighter autoattack DPS was slightly higher than Scouts, but our CA DPS was lower than Scouts (Sorry forgot to get link, oops). I think our DPS is a little better autoattack than everyone thinks it is. If you didn't pick Maddening Defense as your MAster 2 at lvl 44 then you made a mistake as far aas holding aggro goes. When I had it up, I never lost agro once we were fully engaged with the mob. If the Fury in the group cast something on me prior to my taunt after a bow pull, the mob would target him, but 1 use of deafen (Adept 3) would bring him back in on me. Cast MD bam, never loose aggro. It was good enough that I caould actually use a lot of CAs and taunt less. I tried to loose aggro with MD up and it was possible, but I had to almost stop taunting. So far, I like the changes, but I have only got to play for a few hours, so who knows, might hate it by Sunday. And if anyone was wondering, I had a 50 Fury, 50 Paly, 50 Zerker, and a 45 Wiz in the group. I will say this much, if a caster gets a little too enthusiastic, you will loose aggro period. That is what the devs had in mind I think. So, if you think we can't taunt anymore and hold aggro, better check that healer/caster and make sure they are being patient. The game plays more like EQ in that reguard, they can't nuke nuke nuke and expect us to keep the mobs attention, after all, would you keep on the tank of a group if you started getting nuked or the tank kept getting healed? I think not. MHO

09-15-2005, 01:18 AM	#50
Nibbl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 177	Solo stats, using mostly legendary gear (ebon), and legendary weps, and legendary shield! Pre DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll: 70-80% health remaining, 15-25% power remaining w/o shield Post DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll: 20-30% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/o shield 25-35% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/shield Seems we traded health for power. I didn’t see a large difference with my shield either, although this is probably more of a factor in groups. Mobs seem to drop faster, which gives the appearance of better DPS. But my guess is mobs have much less HP, will have to parse DPS out to compare, haven’t done that yet. Con system seems messed up also, notice this more with my alts that can solo harder mobs. I can kill mobs quicker, but my health drops faster as well, I get hit more often. First impression of the combat revamp…. Not Impressed! I feel like a "spongy guardian troll", a "big ugly nerf" that is! :smileysad: I have a 48 Warden as well, hate the changes for wardens. However, my 42 necro rocks after the revamp, SOE gave necromancers some love. I see my guardian and warden gathering some dust, my necro is going to be my primary toon now. Oh, and I have to play on my old P3 1ghz computer. My new computer, a P4 3ghz, doesn’t like the DoF patch, unplayable due to many many graphics problems and extreme lag. It use to play EQ2 very well, not any more. Groll, Level 48 Guardian, BB (hates revamp):robotmad: Sithero Level 48 Warden, BB (what the hell hit me, oh LU#13):smileymad: Nibblar Level 42 Necromancer, BB (Loves LU#13):smileyvery-happy: __________________ __________________________________________________ _________ Necros or Bust! Nibblar 55 Necro, Sithero 54 Warden, Groll 50 Guardian Thales 47 Illusionist, Epicurus 46 Inquisitor, Kyros 48 Necro

09-15-2005, 03:59 AM	#51
Sheridan-Guk Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 52	Here's some background before my feedback. I spent about 9 hours playing last night. I took the time to study my respec and pick the skills that would maximize my defense and HP. I went through my spellbook and hotbars and figured out what stacked and what was on common timers. I am a 50 guardian that shares the MT role in a casual raiding guild. I think I'm geared up above average. I am in full ebon, with a fabled shield, prismatic longsword, legendary activated slots, and legendary jewelry. I chose Master II Maddening Defense. I have 3 Adept 3 taunts (4 if you count the no longer useable Shouting Cry) and 1 Adept 1 taunt. My Defensive Stance is Adept 3. Last night I solo'd, grouped, and took down Broog (52 Epic X 2) twice. Let me start out by saying that pre-CU I could tank and solo multiple blue heroic encounters at once. Many times I would still be in the green afterwards. I couldn't do that in lesser gear, but I did get to that point in my character's progression. I think its fair to say that I needed a nerf. However, I really feel like this was overdone. Pro Maddening Defense is an awesome upgrade, especially considering that we get hit a lot more now. Its great for raid mobs, power draining mobs, and multiple mobs. Because of the root effect, I just wish it weren't required for exp groups. Buffs stay up. I'm no longer trying to maintain 4 buffs that all have the same 1-min timer and expire every 10 minutes. Rescue actually works now. Really well. I wish the timer were more like 5 minutes, but its better than 30. Con Aggro is now considerably less in comparison to my group members. Before, I could cycle through 6 taunts and really lock a mob down. A wizard could chain nukes and HOs and not get aggro. Now, it is difficult to maintain aggro in a fast-paced experience group. Maddening defense helps a lot, but it is a serious pita to use when you're pulling for the group or trying to crawl through a dungeon. I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark. Experience is ungodly slow. Mage pets are able to tank more effectively than me. Aggro, ae aggro, dps, and hp. If someone pulls aggro, it is more difficult to regain. Once the mob turns, you lose the Maddening Defense aggro. We have fewer taunts to work with and the ones we have are on long timers. Rescue helps, but it should be situational at best. My opinion? Nerf. Welcome to the return of the 1-shot mob. Broog has a CA called Boulder throw that does 4500 crush one round and 3500 the next. It also drains all of your power. Yes, we managed to kill him twice, despite that. Still, there's many guardians that will need a change of underwear after tanking him for the first time. You've heard of someone getting hit with the ugly stick? How about someone falling out of the ugly tree and hitting every branch on the way down? Guardians just fell out of the nerf tree, in my opinion.

09-15-2005, 05:41 AM	#52
Mastoras Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	Guk good points, i agree with what you posted. Guardians still need more work.......i highly doubt were done as far as tweaking.

09-15-2005, 06:09 AM	#53
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Sheridan-Guk wrote: Con I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark. Berserkers only have 3 taunts: Single target / Group / Taunting Blow line (not including Hold the line or rescue). So Guardians still have more taunts then other fighters. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

09-15-2005, 07:55 AM	#54
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Hmm I had issues keeping aggro tonight. I used my AE taunt, single taunt, rescue and the taunting blow one. I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing. What happened to all of our buffs? I use to be able to toss off 4 or so to help with aggro, now I'm lucky to have 2. What am I missing? __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-15-2005, 09:39 AM	#55
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Raahl wrote: I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing. Although not a Guardian (Berserker), we have a similar HTL line of spells. I would suggest putting the HTL skill on your hotbar in an easy to reach location. I use this skill on a routine basis now, the casting time is non-existant and there is no refresh. For multiple mob encounters with AoE casters in your group HTL is almost required to maintain agro control. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

09-15-2005, 11:03 AM	#56
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Yup, HTL is basically a requirement for most fights - if everything goes well and you have a chance to establish aggro, it works beautifully. Good luck getting aggro back if you loose though it unless you pop Rescue on them - our taunts just do not have much pull. The only non-taunt skill that seems to generate any significant hate is Crush and that is on a minute timer. __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

09-15-2005, 11:26 AM	#57
Finedo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	Just dinged lvl 51 only problem i had but no more was the agro issue tell i learnt how to adjust to a new skill of holding agro. I dont solo i group and having fun with new changes exploring different ways of tanking again. PvP i knew was going to suck for a Guard just like war in EQ but i never ever made a guard for PvP thats just stupid i made one too tank raids. So far in general the one beef i have is i constantly run out of power due to the fact it cost alot of power to mantain agro in a group set up. I am always out of power when everyone elese in group is fine. been asked many times do you need drink and i laugh. Message Edited by Finedorf on 09-15-2005 12:31 AM __________________

09-15-2005, 04:52 PM	#58
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Thanks Chogar and Arsenal. Does clicking on the HTL skill a second time cancel it or do I have to cancel it from the maintain/spell bar? I will give this a shot tonight and see how things go. Message Edited by Raahl on 09-15-2005 08:53 AM __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

09-15-2005, 05:07 PM	#59
WarShe General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 118	Had the most fun in game last night and its partly due to the changes. I had the chance to dual a Paladin who was the same level as me, the fight lasted a few minutes and was close but in the end I won barely. So knowing that I can run a pally out of mana and then finish him off and it still be a good fight I have to say these where all good changes, I may have had a little longer to get used to the changes since I was in beta but even there I soloed a caimen on SS which was a blue con abd was able to beat it with No weapon attuned lol. http://mywebpage.netscape.com/WDarthMaul/Combat+01.jpg Sounds like maybe a few people are trying to fight some thing they shouldnt be any more? the con system has changes also, No one can do stuff they Used to any more which to me thats common sence, it seems to be working fine our auto attack doesnt decide if we win or lose now its our skills and their quality. __________________ Wars - of Antonia Bayle Server. Sect of Sheol - Leader.

09-15-2005, 05:10 PM	#60
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	I just want to say that having to use HTL in XP groups to keep aggro is inane. Really, is there turpentine on the menu at the SOE Commisarry?