Kills vs death ration and lots of deaths

Uumuuanu · 03-12-2005, 03:55 AM

Ok, so last night a friend of mine commented that I had alot of deaths (294 if you care) and that my kill to death ratio was horrible. I looked at his on EQ2 players and he had like 20 deaths at lvl 32. After arguing back and forth that it was because he was a caster and should never die (cause he can run like a girl, no offense ladies) and that it was a tanks job to die if necessary before his group, I finally gave up and said whatever.

I run almost exclusively pickup groups as I am not guilded and I never back down during a fight unless the healer went down first and its easier for me to save my group by aggro running the mob or I am soloing, in which case I can run all I want. I have been 2nd tank in a few groups and I absolutely HATE it when a tank is like 'aahhhh I am going to die I am running' and has no faith in his group and obviously little in himself.

So I ask you, the tank community, is it not the job of the tank to die before his group? Wouldnt you expect a tank to have alot higher death count than any other class? Am I wrong and my count does totally suck or should a tank have more deaths than any other class?

the_sys · 03-12-2005, 05:37 AM

Well, that number does seem a little high, but I haven't really been running in pick-up groups all that often until lately. I have only found a few really good ones...Though, I do share that mentality. My thought is that if anyone has to go down, it should be me. Though, even with that mentality, there are times where it's necessary to do things like hunker down and have that berserker take a few hits. Or, the times where you just grit your teeth a bit and dig into a monster with your final umph and hope the healer gets back enough power to leave you standing. Even in times where I do stick to the bitter end, it usually results in the monster being so low in health that I am the only one to drop; often times the case, even when a caster takes aggro at that point.A lot of it really depends on who you're grouped with. It's usually fairly easy to tell when a fight is going sour by at least the 1/2 point of the monster's health bar. I usually leave it upon myself to order the group to run mad, with the only person I allow to counter that order being the healer (you really gotta be able to trust your healers' judgement).

TunaBoo · 03-12-2005, 05:46 AM

I have 234 deaths.. I don't sweat it...I suicide on mobs to test their attack and aoe types... deaths mean nothing but a little repair money :p

Stra · 03-12-2005, 07:40 AM

Uumuuanu wrote:....I run almost exclusively pickup groups...

That is your problem right there. You are constantly in groups that couldnt care less about you, probably dont want to listen, and end up killing you a lot.

Hak · 03-12-2005, 08:14 AM

The last post was right on it about not caring... now thats not the case for some, so I know a flame is comming about pick-up groups can be good. Yes I have had some great ones. But many wont care to much, and if it leaves you a nasty shard recovery you will see all the excuses in the world about having to take off.

Back to the original post. I totally agree that if its gonna go to hell, I am gonna be the first one to go down. Plus, when the "RUN" is called, the tank can last the longest, and give the rest a better chance to get the distance built up so they can hopefully out run aggro. Its all group debt now, so 1 death is much better than 6. True they tweaked it some, but I'd rather take the death, then have 5 others piled up if its not necessary.

Belce · 03-12-2005, 12:23 PM

If you group with an enchanter, when it comes time to run they can mezz out mobs and give everyone a more than decent chance to escape. If you have a cout type with evac, its even faster to get everyone out in time.

Eal · 03-12-2005, 12:39 PM

I can see boths sides of the argument. depends on your play style.

As a Guardian though, 9 times out of 10 you are the leader of the group, please correct me if I'm wrong. You are the one who usually directs the group. Dictates the speed, and for the most part makes most of the decisions. I dont think im alone on this but most people that invite me assume that im the leader and usually just sit there and wait for me to decide where to go. Occasionally, asking me, " Do you mind if we kill X number of so and so?"

This being said, a lot of times when things get hectic, they wont react and will wait for someone else to hit the yell button. If you dont do it no one else will. Of course, you get the trigger happy evacing scout, which I never complain about. I'd rather be alive and start over then dead and start over.

I wouldn't worry about the number of deaths, who really cares anyways? It just a time issue. If you can save the party some time by avoiding a complete whipe then do what you gotta do.

Mentin · 03-14-2005, 12:35 PM

I play this game to have fun.

I refuse to let my fun be reduced because I am afraid of dying.

I want to explore new areas, attack nameds with small groups, fool around, etc etc. All these things can easily lead to deaths. People that worry too much about dying loses some of the fun, imo.

It also is the nature of the guardian class that we maybe tends to die more than other classes.

Debt goes away and shards return after 3 days.. why worry about dying?

knightinplaid · 03-14-2005, 01:25 PM

I haven't checked my deaths in awhile but I'd bet it's higher than the average, but it doesn't bother me because that's how I like to play. I get alot more enjoyment out of pushing my friends and I to do crazy stuff and seeing what we can pull off, and most of the time we end up surprising ourselves. Personally I find those thrills alot more enjoyable then folks who want to grind out blue mobs all cozy like. I think adding in a kill vs death ratio was pretty silly to start, let alone the people who feel it should actually have any sort of bearing.

Wilin · 03-14-2005, 10:16 PM

If anyone dies, I'm always the first. It's assumed that since I'm the only one taking damage, I would be the first to die. So it makes perfect sense that tanks will have the worst kill/death ratio due to always dying first. There are rare instances where I can tell ahead of time that it won't end well. This is the only situation where I have run and only after I call for the group to run and they have some time to get some distance.

Wilin · 03-14-2005, 10:16 PM

Bleh, double post...

Message Edited by Wilin on 03-14-2005 09:16 AM

Andalla · 03-15-2005, 12:44 PM

Dont play my tank much in pickup groups, mostly just solo so my kill/death ratio on him is pretty good. But all things being equal, its gonna be the tank that dies first (excluding the silky that is in the wrong spot when the barrage goes off >.< ) I played a fairly high end SK in EQ tho, and took it as a personal affront if I DIDNT die first, its kinda in the job description.Also, keep in mind I could go out and AE grey orcs in Commonlands for eight hours and it would count into the kill/death ratio. Really, how much attention should you give a number so easily padded?

Damile · 03-15-2005, 06:24 PM

I tank, I die.....it's in the rules!We are there to take the beating, that is our job.

Aren · 03-15-2005, 09:52 PM

Ealix wrote:

I can see boths sides of the argument. depends on your play style.

     As a Guardian though, 9 times out of 10 you are the leader of the group, please correct me if I'm wrong. You are the one who usually directs the group. Dictates the speed, and for the most part makes most of the decisions. I dont think im alone on this but most people that invite me assume that im the leader and usually just sit there and wait for me to decide where to go. Occasionally, asking me, " Do you mind if we kill X number of so and so?"

   This being said, a lot of times when things get hectic, they wont react and will wait for someone else to hit the yell button. If you dont do it no one else will. Of course, you get the trigger happy evacing scout, which I never complain about. I'd rather be alive and start over then dead and start over.

     I wouldn't worry about the number of deaths, who really cares anyways? It just a time issue. If you can save the party some time by avoiding a complete whipe then do what you gotta do.

See, now I'm the opposite, I hate a trigger happy scout. I hate it when we get an add or 2 and we evac right away. Those are the fights that make this game fun. I prefer to see if we can get aggro under control, and start burning the mobs down, and decide to evac if mob DPS is higher then healing per second. I'd rather fight back for a shard at the risk of having a good time.

How if a excessively difficult group adds, I have no problem with insta-evac, but if we have any chance of winning, I want to see what we're made of.

Death4 · 03-15-2005, 10:08 PM

As a previous poster stated, 9 out of 10 times as a Guardian I'm the leader. I do so enjoy having that responsibility. I never have problems with trigger happy scouts because I square it away with the scout first thing. I lead, I pull, I tank, I die, I keep everyone alive. The decision to evac is always mine. Never had to use it yet though =)

Robyen · 03-15-2005, 10:16 PM

When things go bad and get rough....I throw all my good def arts up, taunt the heck outta all mobs and tell everyone else to RUN. I find that I'm usually the leader of the group as well. I tend to group with my wife who plays an Inquisitor, so we are usually just looking for DPS. I always die first. It's our job as a guardian. Good thing is...she usually doesn't let mw die unless we end up in a no win situation. I don't really worry about the deaths...it's part of being a MT sometimes. As others have already noted..it's better to suffer debt for one death, than an entire party wipe. Pick-up groups are usually 50/50, with half being good and the other half horribly bad. When you get into a good group experience, make sure to add those people to your friends list. If it was good to you...it was good to them and then you can start having some good groups more often. Also, since my wife and I duo a lot, we always give aid to others that request help via shout or ooc. You can meet some good players that way and add more to your friends list. If you can find a healer to team up with on a regular basis...even better. A good Tank/Healer combo....one that plays together often and knows each other tactics can make up for some weak grouping experiences.

Just my 2 coppers

Bustayochopps 20 Guardian Befallen

Maelru 26 Necromancer Befallen

Olikath 23 Bruiser Befallen

Baindrag · 03-15-2005, 10:37 PM

Uumuuanu wrote:

Ok, so last night a friend of mine commented that I had alot of deaths (294 if you care) and that my kill to death ratio was horrible.   I looked at his on EQ2 players and he had like 20 deaths at lvl 32.   After arguing back and forth that it was because he was a caster and should never die (cause he can run like a girl, no offense ladies) and that it was a tanks job to die if necessary before his group, I finally gave up and said whatever.

I run almost exclusively pickup groups as I am not guilded and I never back down during a fight unless the healer went down first and its easier for me to save my group by aggro running the mob or I am soloing, in which case I can run all I want.   I have been 2nd tank in a few groups and I absolutely HATE it when a tank is like 'aahhhh I am going to die I am running' and has no faith in his group and obviously little in himself.

So I ask you, the tank community, is it not the job of the tank to die before his group?   Wouldnt you expect a tank to have alot higher death count than any other class? Am I wrong and my count does totally suck or should a tank have more deaths than any other class?

Good post and I totally agree. I am first in a room and the last out so to speak. I too feel it is my job in the case of group wipeage to Taunt all the mobs I can so the rest of my group can flee to safety. Cheer's mate for being IMHO a good tank keep your head out and keep your death counter rising SMILEY

BTW my death counter is that high too SMILEY

)

Baindrag · 03-15-2005, 10:39 PM

TunaBoo wrote:
I have 234 deaths.. I don't sweat it...

I suicide on mobs to test their attack and aoe types... deaths mean nothing but a little repair money :p

I thought I was the only crazy tank that did this SMILEY

BTW Berroxx in Obelisk ae cast for 2kish and wiped my group before it was in melee range was funny funny.

Baindrag · 03-15-2005, 10:45 PM

Death40k wrote:

As a previous poster stated, 9 out of 10 times as a Guardian I'm the leader. I do so enjoy having that responsibility. I never have problems with trigger happy scouts because I square it away with the scout first thing. I lead, I pull, I tank, I die, I keep everyone alive. The decision to evac is always mine. Never had to use it yet though =)

Couldnt have stated it better myself. I do the same thing and feel the same way. Though this one time my RL friend plays a scout and I asked him verbally hey bro is evac up yet.. Bam evac to zone... I was like [Removed for Content]... Then I laughed at how funny it was. I was getting a shard in a very bad place and I was just in click range when he evaced lol.

03-12-2005, 05:46 AM	#3
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	I have 234 deaths.. I don't sweat it...I suicide on mobs to test their attack and aoe types... deaths mean nothing but a little repair money :p __________________ www.spiralguild.com

03-12-2005, 07:40 AM	#4
Stra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 87	Uumuuanu wrote:....I run almost exclusively pickup groups... That is your problem right there. You are constantly in groups that couldnt care less about you, probably dont want to listen, and end up killing you a lot. __________________ CANCELLED because of Station Exchange and a repreated pattern of SOE lying to its customers.

03-12-2005, 12:23 PM	#6
Belce Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 318	If you group with an enchanter, when it comes time to run they can mezz out mobs and give everyone a more than decent chance to escape. If you have a cout type with evac, its even faster to get everyone out in time. __________________

03-14-2005, 01:25 PM	#9
knightinplaid Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 110	I haven't checked my deaths in awhile but I'd bet it's higher than the average, but it doesn't bother me because that's how I like to play. I get alot more enjoyment out of pushing my friends and I to do crazy stuff and seeing what we can pull off, and most of the time we end up surprising ourselves. Personally I find those thrills alot more enjoyable then folks who want to grind out blue mobs all cozy like. I think adding in a kill vs death ratio was pretty silly to start, let alone the people who feel it should actually have any sort of bearing. __________________ Memore - 70 Guardian Morgaan - 70 Swashbuckler www.vindicateguild.org

03-14-2005, 10:16 PM	#10
Wilin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,151	If anyone dies, I'm always the first. It's assumed that since I'm the only one taking damage, I would be the first to die. So it makes perfect sense that tanks will have the worst kill/death ratio due to always dying first. There are rare instances where I can tell ahead of time that it won't end well. This is the only situation where I have run and only after I call for the group to run and they have some time to get some distance. __________________

03-12-2005, 03:55 AM	#1
Uumuuanu Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 355	Ok, so last night a friend of mine commented that I had alot of deaths (294 if you care) and that my kill to death ratio was horrible. I looked at his on EQ2 players and he had like 20 deaths at lvl 32. After arguing back and forth that it was because he was a caster and should never die (cause he can run like a girl, no offense ladies) and that it was a tanks job to die if necessary before his group, I finally gave up and said whatever. I run almost exclusively pickup groups as I am not guilded and I never back down during a fight unless the healer went down first and its easier for me to save my group by aggro running the mob or I am soloing, in which case I can run all I want. I have been 2nd tank in a few groups and I absolutely HATE it when a tank is like 'aahhhh I am going to die I am running' and has no faith in his group and obviously little in himself. So I ask you, the tank community, is it not the job of the tank to die before his group? Wouldnt you expect a tank to have alot higher death count than any other class? Am I wrong and my count does totally suck or should a tank have more deaths than any other class?

03-12-2005, 05:37 AM	#2
the_sys Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7	Well, that number does seem a little high, but I haven't really been running in pick-up groups all that often until lately. I have only found a few really good ones...Though, I do share that mentality. My thought is that if anyone has to go down, it should be me. Though, even with that mentality, there are times where it's necessary to do things like hunker down and have that berserker take a few hits. Or, the times where you just grit your teeth a bit and dig into a monster with your final umph and hope the healer gets back enough power to leave you standing. Even in times where I do stick to the bitter end, it usually results in the monster being so low in health that I am the only one to drop; often times the case, even when a caster takes aggro at that point.A lot of it really depends on who you're grouped with. It's usually fairly easy to tell when a fight is going sour by at least the 1/2 point of the monster's health bar. I usually leave it upon myself to order the group to run mad, with the only person I allow to counter that order being the healer (you really gotta be able to trust your healers' judgement).

03-12-2005, 08:14 AM	#5
Hak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	The last post was right on it about not caring... now thats not the case for some, so I know a flame is comming about pick-up groups can be good. Yes I have had some great ones. But many wont care to much, and if it leaves you a nasty shard recovery you will see all the excuses in the world about having to take off. Back to the original post. I totally agree that if its gonna go to hell, I am gonna be the first one to go down. Plus, when the "RUN" is called, the tank can last the longest, and give the rest a better chance to get the distance built up so they can hopefully out run aggro. Its all group debt now, so 1 death is much better than 6. True they tweaked it some, but I'd rather take the death, then have 5 others piled up if its not necessary.

03-12-2005, 12:39 PM	#7
Eal Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 108	I can see boths sides of the argument. depends on your play style. As a Guardian though, 9 times out of 10 you are the leader of the group, please correct me if I'm wrong. You are the one who usually directs the group. Dictates the speed, and for the most part makes most of the decisions. I dont think im alone on this but most people that invite me assume that im the leader and usually just sit there and wait for me to decide where to go. Occasionally, asking me, " Do you mind if we kill X number of so and so?" This being said, a lot of times when things get hectic, they wont react and will wait for someone else to hit the yell button. If you dont do it no one else will. Of course, you get the trigger happy evacing scout, which I never complain about. I'd rather be alive and start over then dead and start over. I wouldn't worry about the number of deaths, who really cares anyways? It just a time issue. If you can save the party some time by avoiding a complete whipe then do what you gotta do.

03-14-2005, 12:35 PM	#8
Mentin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 163	I play this game to have fun. I refuse to let my fun be reduced because I am afraid of dying. I want to explore new areas, attack nameds with small groups, fool around, etc etc. All these things can easily lead to deaths. People that worry too much about dying loses some of the fun, imo. It also is the nature of the guardian class that we maybe tends to die more than other classes. Debt goes away and shards return after 3 days.. why worry about dying?

03-14-2005, 10:16 PM	#11
Wilin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,151	Bleh, double post... Message Edited by Wilin on 03-14-2005 09:16 AM __________________

03-15-2005, 12:44 PM	#12
Andalla Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 166	Dont play my tank much in pickup groups, mostly just solo so my kill/death ratio on him is pretty good. But all things being equal, its gonna be the tank that dies first (excluding the silky that is in the wrong spot when the barrage goes off >.< ) I played a fairly high end SK in EQ tho, and took it as a personal affront if I DIDNT die first, its kinda in the job description.Also, keep in mind I could go out and AE grey orcs in Commonlands for eight hours and it would count into the kill/death ratio. Really, how much attention should you give a number so easily padded? __________________

03-15-2005, 06:24 PM	#13
Damile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	I tank, I die.....it's in the rules!We are there to take the beating, that is our job. __________________ Koradur Haulway Guild Leader and Guardian of The Saviors of Norrath Oasis

03-15-2005, 09:52 PM	#14
Aren Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 88	Ealix wrote: I can see boths sides of the argument. depends on your play style. As a Guardian though, 9 times out of 10 you are the leader of the group, please correct me if I'm wrong. You are the one who usually directs the group. Dictates the speed, and for the most part makes most of the decisions. I dont think im alone on this but most people that invite me assume that im the leader and usually just sit there and wait for me to decide where to go. Occasionally, asking me, " Do you mind if we kill X number of so and so?" This being said, a lot of times when things get hectic, they wont react and will wait for someone else to hit the yell button. If you dont do it no one else will. Of course, you get the trigger happy evacing scout, which I never complain about. I'd rather be alive and start over then dead and start over. I wouldn't worry about the number of deaths, who really cares anyways? It just a time issue. If you can save the party some time by avoiding a complete whipe then do what you gotta do. See, now I'm the opposite, I hate a trigger happy scout. I hate it when we get an add or 2 and we evac right away. Those are the fights that make this game fun. I prefer to see if we can get aggro under control, and start burning the mobs down, and decide to evac if mob DPS is higher then healing per second. I'd rather fight back for a shard at the risk of having a good time. How if a excessively difficult group adds, I have no problem with insta-evac, but if we have any chance of winning, I want to see what we're made of. __________________

03-15-2005, 10:08 PM	#15
Death4 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 37	As a previous poster stated, 9 out of 10 times as a Guardian I'm the leader. I do so enjoy having that responsibility. I never have problems with trigger happy scouts because I square it away with the scout first thing. I lead, I pull, I tank, I die, I keep everyone alive. The decision to evac is always mine. Never had to use it yet though =)

03-15-2005, 10:16 PM	#16
Robyen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7	When things go bad and get rough....I throw all my good def arts up, taunt the heck outta all mobs and tell everyone else to RUN. I find that I'm usually the leader of the group as well. I tend to group with my wife who plays an Inquisitor, so we are usually just looking for DPS. I always die first. It's our job as a guardian. Good thing is...she usually doesn't let mw die unless we end up in a no win situation. I don't really worry about the deaths...it's part of being a MT sometimes. As others have already noted..it's better to suffer debt for one death, than an entire party wipe. Pick-up groups are usually 50/50, with half being good and the other half horribly bad. When you get into a good group experience, make sure to add those people to your friends list. If it was good to you...it was good to them and then you can start having some good groups more often. Also, since my wife and I duo a lot, we always give aid to others that request help via shout or ooc. You can meet some good players that way and add more to your friends list. If you can find a healer to team up with on a regular basis...even better. A good Tank/Healer combo....one that plays together often and knows each other tactics can make up for some weak grouping experiences. Just my 2 coppers Bustayochopps 20 Guardian Befallen Maelru 26 Necromancer Befallen Olikath 23 Bruiser Befallen

03-15-2005, 10:37 PM	#17
Baindrag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	Uumuuanu wrote: Ok, so last night a friend of mine commented that I had alot of deaths (294 if you care) and that my kill to death ratio was horrible. I looked at his on EQ2 players and he had like 20 deaths at lvl 32. After arguing back and forth that it was because he was a caster and should never die (cause he can run like a girl, no offense ladies) and that it was a tanks job to die if necessary before his group, I finally gave up and said whatever. I run almost exclusively pickup groups as I am not guilded and I never back down during a fight unless the healer went down first and its easier for me to save my group by aggro running the mob or I am soloing, in which case I can run all I want. I have been 2nd tank in a few groups and I absolutely HATE it when a tank is like 'aahhhh I am going to die I am running' and has no faith in his group and obviously little in himself. So I ask you, the tank community, is it not the job of the tank to die before his group? Wouldnt you expect a tank to have alot higher death count than any other class? Am I wrong and my count does totally suck or should a tank have more deaths than any other class? Good post and I totally agree. I am first in a room and the last out so to speak. I too feel it is my job in the case of group wipeage to Taunt all the mobs I can so the rest of my group can flee to safety. Cheer's mate for being IMHO a good tank keep your head out and keep your death counter rising BTW my death counter is that high too )

03-15-2005, 10:39 PM	#18
Baindrag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	TunaBoo wrote: I have 234 deaths.. I don't sweat it... I suicide on mobs to test their attack and aoe types... deaths mean nothing but a little repair money :p I thought I was the only crazy tank that did this BTW Berroxx in Obelisk ae cast for 2kish and wiped my group before it was in melee range was funny funny.

03-15-2005, 10:45 PM	#19
Baindrag Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	Death40k wrote: As a previous poster stated, 9 out of 10 times as a Guardian I'm the leader. I do so enjoy having that responsibility. I never have problems with trigger happy scouts because I square it away with the scout first thing. I lead, I pull, I tank, I die, I keep everyone alive. The decision to evac is always mine. Never had to use it yet though =) Couldnt have stated it better myself. I do the same thing and feel the same way. Though this one time my RL friend plays a scout and I asked him verbally hey bro is evac up yet.. Bam evac to zone... I was like [Removed for Content]... Then I laughed at how funny it was. I was getting a shard in a very bad place and I was just in click range when he evaced lol.