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03-13-2005, 03:01 AM
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#1 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 944
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Dear Guardians, To show that not everyone is jealous of your Guardianness, I've taken the liberty of copying one of my posts from the Monk boards concerning the endless 'Who's the best tank' debate. It's hardly the last word on the matter but hopefully will indicate that we're not all plotting the demise of your class - even though you look all clunky in the tin suit  Any constructive posts on our boards as regards these issues will be appreciated by most of us, I'm sure. I like being able to switch from DPS to tank and back again. I like the fact that DPS is highest of all the Fighter classes. Of course, if I wanted pure DPS I would've been a Mage. If I wanted all-out defense I would've been a Guardian. The 'jack of all trades' thing might not suit all of us, but it's exactly this ability to 'do a little bit of everything' that makes me play my Monk always and my Zerker...never. Clearly we have two camps - the Gagers who want to tank above all and the Nerillists who enjoy the versatility of the Monk class as is.. Someone's going to be disappointed either way. I think to characterise the schism as DPS vs TANKING is misleading, as few people imagine any fighter outdamaging a Mage or Scout class is supportable. In my view it's more helpful to think about it in terms of what exactly you picked you classes for in the first place. Personally, I picked Monk because I like the moves and the invis and the heal and the safe fall and the feign death stuff. Giving up tanking ability, to me, is like giving up the warrior's ability to use any weapon or shield (see my post re PGT) - a sacrifice you make to get the good stuff you want. Nobody likes the thought of rerolling a character, but at least for those who want to tank above all, a Zerker or Guardian would be a viable alternative. If Monks come to resemble Guardians in all but name, there is no alternative class (as yet) for all the people who rolled monks for reasons other than tanking. There's no other class quite like us. I'd like to keep it that way. Respectfully, Annaspider xxx
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03-14-2005, 02:15 AM
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#2 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tucson, Az
Posts: 347
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lol, anna :smileytongue: I am the leader of the Nerillists who enjoy the versatility of the Monk class as is. At least I guess I am the "leader". Maybe I am next to be voted off the "island". The tribe has spoken ! ..... but I digress. Anyway, my position is this: If the game were balanced in the fighter Archtype ..... Bruisers would have the best DPS of all fighters and, while still being able to tank, would be the "worst" tank of all fighters. Monks would have the second best DPS of all fighters and, while still being able to tank, would be the "second worst" tank of all fighters. And so on .... and so on .... Until you reach the Guardian Class which would have the worst DPS off all fighters and be the BEST tank. Pure and simple .... that would be balance in the Fighter Tree. ALL FIGHTERS WOULD BE ABLE TO TANK ..... THOSE WHO DO IT BEST WOULD PROVIDE LOW DPS AND THOSE WITH THE BEST DPS, WHILE STILL BEING ABLE TO TANK, WOULD BE THE "WORST" TANK. What makes us wanted ????? Our versitility ! The fact that if a group adds a Monk they have a secondary Tank who can take over Tanking duty if the Plate Wearing Tank leaves the group or if they do not have a Tank at all. Yet, we can provide GOOD DPS ! Our DPS should fall just BELOW Scouts, Mages, and specifically, Bruisers.
Now, just curious, is this position something that the Guardian Community would agree with ? |
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03-14-2005, 03:32 AM
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#3 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6
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I like the idea though I'm not sure where berserkers would fit in and I'd think the brawler and crusader classes would be balanced.
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03-14-2005, 07:00 AM
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#4 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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the brawler classes are balanced when compared to each other - but not to the archetype. cant compete with heavy armor and such because the armor is blanketed to more than one archetype at a time. dps isnt an efficient way to keep up with the same efficiency as a taunt spell or attack with a taunt built in. and HP and AC both fall into the gulch as a result. making 4 better tanks than us - when in question of what a TANK is - (hold aggro - take a beating - pwr efficient regarding the healer involved and downtime.) the crusader classes are not balanced even when compared to each other - the shadowknights lifetaps dont work to half of the efficiency of the the instant self heals of the paladin class as far as ensuring maximum HP potential. naturally. one takes life to give life and is resistable - the other is an instant heal - unbalanced at its core - paladins get HP potential beyond that of a gaurdian or any other fighter for that matter. which prompted greendragonknights crazy post about the fact that gaurdians suck. lol = which makes me say that someone who makes this game needs to pick a side - either we will be different classes with different purposes or we will be balanced at the archtype level like it was supposed to be to do our JOB (which would suck = but thats not what this is about at the moment lol) Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-13-2005 06:02 PM |
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03-14-2005, 01:21 PM
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#5 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 559
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Nerill's order seems pretty accurate except Berserker's are right being monks in dps atm in the game. Yes SK's are underpowered atm vs Paladins because their LT's dont work nearly as well as Pally heals..Strykr Destructicus47 Berserker
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03-14-2005, 09:11 PM
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#6 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 230
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Yes, I agree with that Nerill.. in totality.
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03-15-2005, 12:05 AM
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#7 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 253
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Thank you for seeing our plight, may i add the can keep up with our DPS and even out DPS too. Sad but true.
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Dunnott 70 SK Tumaedre 70th Song I wonder how much time i have with this name 
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03-15-2005, 12:29 AM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 35
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Nerill wrote: "Now, just curious, is this position something that the Guardian Community would agree with ?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're actually asking guardians whether we feel we should be the best tanks in the game? To be honest, I think most guards by now have grown tired of the neverending "Best tank" threads on this forum. Alas, most of these discussions tend to end in meaningless flame wars... If you want my personal view, I find Gage's wish for improved tanking ability for monks to be a fair request. I do support the idea that all fighter subclasses should be valued in the end game. No one wants to play a class that has no role or isn't in demand. With regard to your dps/tanking comparison, I find your model to be somewhat simplistic. Factors like utility and risk/reward-perspectives (the fact that damage spikes may be more difficult to deal with than more consistent damage) should be added to your equation. However, instead of continuing the seemingly endless end game balance discussion, I'd like to see some posts suggesting how all fighter subclasses can be made more appreciated with regard to the end game content. I strongly feel this game need some added utility for the fighter classes, making them all wanted in the end game. It's my perception that there are quite a few tanks around. If most raids only require one or a couple of tanks, a lot of players from the fighter archtype tree will have no role on raids. They may be effectively excluded from part of the fun as min/maxing raid groups will result in them being replaced by healers/cc/dps. This is what Soe has to look into imo. Also, if possible, different raid mobs could be designed to suit different fighter subclasses. I'd be happy to let a monk, SK or zerker tank if I knew I could assist in a valued manner. Guards don't have to be stars ALL the time (even though we sure do want to shine!  )Raids are fun, and we'd like all to be able to participate, won't we? Message Edited by Nimanael on 03-14-2005 11:35 AM |
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03-15-2005, 01:05 AM
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#9 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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i would personally say let the gaurdians keep raid tank and give me some grp breaking utility like maximizing defense or offense. like giving shadowknights a grp based intervene so that every time a heal goes off 50% of its total is calculated into damage for the mob. (the death of life persay?) thats all that really needs to be done IMO - unique abilities - that can be very helpful in raid situations. paladins have the best of all worlds (lol-heals spells mitigation, all they need now is evac!! :smileyvery-happy guardians should be given 1 more notch of defence above the rest = just 1 notch to make them undebateable... i know some wont agree - but what a monk cant do at level 50 (aka now) he will be able to do easily at level 54 without question... so patience will just be the offset for the here and now...
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03-15-2005, 01:35 AM
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#10 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,808
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Ive read just about all these "tank balance" threads. My concern is not from the MT point of view but rather the "other". I mean if SOE goes down the path they apparantly are..i.e falling to the demands that Fighters not be DPS, etc then where will that leave all the fighters that are not the chosen MT for a particular raid? Personally I coudl care less because I dont raid. But I am not stupid enough to believe that any nerfage to Guardians at the raid level wont have any effect at every other level of the game. I think the reason many Guards get so defensive about this topic is because they realize they are nothing if not MT. We dont stack, We are not DPS, our "protection" line are laughable at best. So they start thinking that having only one role in the game means they should be the only one with that role.All I know is that each and every night that Im out adventuring is never see..."/ooc Gorup looking for Guardian"..instead all i see is ..."/ooc Group looking for tank". I find it very hard to believe that any of the 6 tank types responding would be denied. That implies to me that no one tank type is prefered over the other. Thats what i always expected when I first started reading about EQ2.Ive tried to go back and find all the posts where Moorgard/devs spoke about tank equality and found this:"Moorgard said all fighters could be equally effective tanks in most situations." So what does MOST mean? Does it mean ALL? Does it mean everything but some raid mobs? It could mean alot of things. Could it mean that "could be" means that fighters dont have to always be tank...they can be other things?Have some people misunderstood what MOST meant? I just want to enjoy the game, feel like my character/class contributes something and I want that for everyone else. But the truth is there is only one main tank role in a group or raids...6 different fighter classes...thats gonna leave ALOT of fighters with something else to do besides tank. Thats where I think the devs should concentrate on making them ALL equally effective. Groups/Raids should not hesitate to add a fighter type even if the MT spot is already filled.
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03-15-2005, 01:47 AM
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#11 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 146
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Some monks give monks a bad rap....  Hmmmm, yeah. I hope I don't have many monks like her in my group. I think I was wrong about the Attack Score... perhaps someone has done testing with fists?
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--Real Tanks Use Shields-- - Sunthas - Guardian - Weaponsmith - Unrest |
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03-15-2005, 03:38 AM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 88
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Wow, I honestly think the weaponsmith (is that you?) is the idiot. If anyone send me a tell like that about what I how I play my character I'd tell em off and add em to ignore. Now if you talk with a more friendly tone, and offer advice I'd be more open to that. But in my opinion you were just being a jerk. I fail to see how that monk is giving the monk community a bad rep. I've seen tanks with gear far inferior to mine, and I don't think they give my class a bad name. Actually I couldn't care less what people think of my class in general, all I know is people I group with call me the best tank they've ever had. That's all I care about.
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03-15-2005, 03:39 AM
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#13 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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when a bruiser takes his weapons off his attack stays the same with bear hands...it goes up a few points at best - but its not a big difference at all.
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03-15-2005, 08:35 AM
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#14 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 194
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I'm a strong believer in letting people choose their role. Monks can be both very strong tanks (in defensive stances) as well as DPS. There are arguments for both sides of the picture within the Monk community. In the end, it is the players' choice on how he/she would play the character. I'm not playing the game to dictate my beliefs on other people. I could care less.
Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-14-2005 07:37 PM |
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03-15-2005, 09:35 AM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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yeah thats very true - but with a nerf to fighter dps - most guardians wont give a flip at all - they rolled the class to play that way specifically. those of us who became accustomed to the versatility or either or will be stripped of that and given 1 way - not by someones words or statements in game - but by SOE... thats the real issue.
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03-15-2005, 09:42 AM
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#16 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 194
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SOE has not done a thing to Guardian or Monk DPS just yet. Let's wait till after they do something before we make further assumptions.
Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-14-2005 09:05 PM |
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03-15-2005, 09:49 AM
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#17 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 88
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the STR nerf, while affecting everyone, hit fighters the most, being as they had the highest STR levels. That was more to nerf all melee so that mages would be THE dps, but like I said, fighter DPS was nerfed.
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03-15-2005, 10:01 AM
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#18 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 297
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I don't care what anyone says. The devs have said thus:Fighters tank.Priests heal.Scouts stab.Mages nuke.It's that simple. At any level, the only thing you should type when looking for a tank for any kind of content, is /who all fighter LFG. If you're typing anything other than fighter, the archetype system is flawed and needs to be fixed. Hell, they need to make the MoTD say something along those lines just to get it through the thick skulls of all the rejects from EQ1 that brought their baggage with them.
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... in bed. |
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03-15-2005, 10:02 AM
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#19 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 194
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The STR "nerf" was relative to all classes . . . like you said.One Fighter class was not given any advantages over another fighter class in this case. That's what I meant.
Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-14-2005 09:04 PM |
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03-15-2005, 10:53 AM
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#20 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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****Evaluating melee damage to ensure that scouts always outdamage fighters. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^' what does that mean to you? to me it says somebodys archetype is getting nerfed - or someone elses is getting boosted - either way - it still places monks and bruisers in the same boat.
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03-15-2005, 10:55 AM
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#21 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 46
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Level 45 Guardian here. I do not know what sort of tanks you have on other servers or what tanks you have grouped with on my server, but all the information about who has the best dps and blah blah your mostly wrong. JFYI when I say tanks I mean only Guardians and Beserkers. Since we are the Only main line tanks PERIOD. So lets set the record straight. My guardian wields (depending on the mob's immunity) 2 Pierce weapons (serrated bone dirk,saber of velocity) 2 Crush weapons (Cudgel of Night x2) 2 Slash Weapons (Ebon Spatha x2) As you probably see I never use a 1h weapon or a 2h weapon and I never use a shiled. Well to my point, the post I have seen mostly talk about the monk/brawler classes being the highest dps of the tank tree. Well unfortuantly this is not the case. The only classes that can out dps me are mage class and only if they have some adebt 3's on their hot bar. My dps runs roughly 85-128. Depending on the mob I can squeek out 140ish. I know you going man I know my dps is way better than that. ITS NOT get a parcer and check it yourself. Yes I have had other class than mage out dps me but they were atleast 4 levels ahead of me. The only person my same level that out damged me in a group was an assassian but she was decked out with some serious gear. Of course DPS is relative to the duration of the encounter. Sure a 1 min fight the dps is going to be lower ended for a tank. Through in 5+ min fights the Guardian/beserker if equipped right will out dps anybody in the group accept maybe the mage classes. So all you monkies take your dps talk else where  because it just is not the case in EQ2. One last comment if any doubt me I will make an extensive post on my melee skill abilities which are all on different timers. I have close to 2 full hot bars of dd melee skills that do not share a timer. Disclaimer..... I love the fact I have high dps as a guardian. Do i think it is right nope. I truely feel monk's should have alot better dps than a guardian. You are the dps of the fighter class (well supposed to be) I imagine SoE will eventually get around to nerfing guardians that ditch the shield for dual weapons. Shield on tank = huge agro loss. Dishing out 100+dps on mobs = huge agro increase. Serrated Bone Dirk; 7sta, 9agi, 6str, 40hp, 32power 18-53dd delay 1.5sec Saber of Velocity; 8agi, 8str, 27hp, 31power 17-52dd 1.6sec Ebon Spatha; 8agi, 8str, 30hp, 30power 13-38dd 1.2sec Cudgel of Night; 7agi, 9str, 26hp, 33power 18-54dd 1.7sec This bit of useless knowledge brought to you by Dragonsbain Black Burrow server.
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03-15-2005, 11:14 AM
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#22 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,507
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lol 140? Our bards can do that, scouts and conjs way way higher, monks higher.
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03-15-2005, 11:19 AM
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#23 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 318
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Bain, I didn't see in your post an indication of what you go after in encounters, their con colour and also your group makeup?
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03-15-2005, 11:21 AM
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#24 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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well gangster fist is a level 50 monk and he raids often - his dps came in at 138 and the group gaurdian came in at like 120 or so - not a big difference at all - especially considering that the guardian was tanking.... trust him belce its true... beserkers are higher than monks as well, especially if group mobs are present. bruisers average out around 160+ in most cases but cant use most of thier skills in big long fights cause the mobs cant be effected by half of our moves.. "opponent is too powerful" message Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-14-2005 10:24 PM |
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03-15-2005, 01:29 PM
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#25 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tucson, Az
Posts: 347
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Right there is the reason I fight so hard with my pro-tank counterparts. Obviously, I was a little short sighted in not considering all fighters in the Figter Archtype system. :smileysad: ALL FIGHTERS need to be able to provide DPS as well as Tank. Part of EVERYONE'S SOE Class description for their Fighter Type includes some sort of Damage Dealing ability. Fighters need to have their proper place in the DPS Totem Pole. But if we do not provide decent DPS then those Fighters not the MT for their Raid might as well zone into a Tradeskill instance and start baking some pies or something while the rest of their Guild has "fun storming the castle". :smileywink: Message Edited by Nerill on 03-15-2005 01:30 AM |
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03-15-2005, 10:01 PM
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#26 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 146
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I often come across much more harsh than I want to. The bottom line is that if someone is not using weapons its like not wearing armor. Granted a monk can dodge a lot, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't wear armor. Regardless of attack score, monks should be using weapons when they fight. My question to her was innocent, I figured the response that came back would be, I only take them off then I run around town because they are ugly. Moorgard said:
You definitely want to use a weapon; don't go bare fisted. There are plenty of fist wraps that make nice weapons if you prefer the look. Is there any doubt? Now when some monk in my group complains about their DPS, I'll have to ask if they are using their bare hands... Not really fair to compare monk damage output with their bare hands to my PGT or Shiny Brass Halbred.
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--Real Tanks Use Shields-- - Sunthas - Guardian - Weaponsmith - Unrest |
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03-15-2005, 10:19 PM
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#27 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 46
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Of course bards can dish out that type of damage but I did not include them in my topic since I was talking about the Tank sub class. Tunaboo I have seen your gear and you know from personal experiance that you are at the top of the dps table during long fights. When SoE patched the mage classes to do higher damage yes they out dps all by a far amount. Yet they patched them again and they are about the same as High dps melee classes. My post was simply to put out the fire that Monks where higher DPS than guardians. Sure You will be in a group where one monk with very strong gear and alot of adebt 3 + melee skill's out dps the guardian. Now put very strong gear on the Guardian and all adebt3 + skills on him/her and see where the dps table is. Just like my disclaimer is it right not really but it is the case. Scouts and Conjs are not way way higher maybe 20 ish more. Read my post on weapons choice and you will see what I am talking about.
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03-15-2005, 10:25 PM
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#28 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 46
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Generally to get a good accounting of who is doing large amounts of damage you have to be in a long fight. I.E. group mobs ^^ usually even con or higher to get a good reading on dps. Also most dps parcers only count damage done on the last mob in the encounter. |
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03-17-2005, 12:22 PM
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#29 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
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Gangster and I have been trying to tell people that the "DPS" arguement is unfounded, but anyway. I'm sick of all the arguing really. I don't care what they do anymore. I just wish they'd do something to ensure every class has a role in end-game raids. Whether its tanking, ballet dancing, bbq'ing... just something besides standing there. If you read any real raid discussion, to get the best odds, you min/max. That means there are about 6 classes worth taking. Just sucks for the rest of us. But guardians can be the only MT in the game as far as I care anymore, it isn't worth arguing about. I play my alts now, that is a lot more fun than arguing with the same five people every day about the same topics that none of us can change. To me at least. Oh and just so you know where I'm coming from, here is what we offer raids: Not the best tanking, not the best DPS, not the best avoidance buff (Shrug Off is better, and I'm 99.9% sure they don't stack), ... But I guess we can use invis until we run out of power (even though numerous other classes have better and/or group invis), FD if the raid wipes with a rez stone and save the entire raid! (hopefully?) or jump off a cliff while using a flying kick on the dragon (looks cool?). In fact there is nothing that we can offer a raid that numerous other classes can't do better. While you can all have your vendettas against me blah blah, just take the time to ask yourself why I was asking to be a better raid tank. Maybe because its what monks are designed for (all arguements aside) and I figured its the only thing SoE would consider. But again *shrug* who cares. I have pleny of alts to play (soon to be two more) and I just don't have the heart to argue with you guys over and over and over about opinion. I play the game to have fun, you should to. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-16-2005 11:30 PM
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03-17-2005, 12:38 PM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 958
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with that being said by gage himself.... SOE can we please have some sort of feedback on this [Removed for Content] issue???????????????? PLEASE???????????? ANYTHING?? JUST SOMN TO GIVE A GENERAL SENSE OF THE DIRECTION WE ARE GOING PLEASE?????? IM BEGGING HERE... WORK WITH ME??
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