Anyone else tired of other tank classes with guardian envy? - Page 20

Arbl · 03-09-2005, 08:10 PM

Didn't read all posts but I must say, I am glad I brought some cheese. :smileytongue:

For those who think "balance" and "equal" are the same, go grab a dictionary or find one online. :smileywink:

For those who actually thought all fighter, caster, classes would be equal, I got this bridge I need to sell. :smileysurprised:

Game designers are like politicians, they say what will draw them the most people and worry about the problems they caused afterwards. It's no reason to attack other classes that you may, one day in the future, wish never got nerfed because of the complaints.

Each of these classes has been around longer than either EQ, or any computer game, and were defined long ago as to their places in battle. A DPS fighter is not a tank, just as a tank is not a DPS fighter. A nuking caster is not a healer, just as a healer is not a nuking caster. All have a job, even if God says different, it won't change. I want that guy covered in steel getting beat up, I want the healer casting heals, I want the nukers, nuking, I want the DPS doing damage and not getting hit.

Why do I want all that? Mobs die fast when it happens properly, and we can move to the next mob or step of the quest or whatever we are doing and HAVE FUN.

If I am part of a group or raid operating as they should and have fun, I don't care which I am because, it is a group effort and a group achievement. Since it's a group, it matters not if I am the tank or the healer or DPS, because all were part of it.

Wiou · 03-09-2005, 08:30 PM

I really don't think any other fighter archetype should be asked to be tanked for a raid mob. Not even an alternate.Raids are crucial encounters.. you want the top of the line class for all the important roles. Period.That's where guardians come in. Sorry, monks, but avoidance is NOT going to save you on raid mobs.(this is coming from a monk)

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 10:40 PM

Namilla wrote:

Gage:

You have tried to make this point in more than just this thread. This is also going on in the test server forums. About "why cant all tanks be =" and another on making all tanks the same for raid mobs. You continually try to push for this change because you made a choice that did not fit what you truly wanted to do. You have already been shot down by your fellow monks who like there class as is. So please let it rest now.

I didn't start any of the threads. A guardian started this one, a SK I believe started the one in test... etc etc. I can reply to whatever I want. My opinion is as valid as anyone elses.

I want to play a monk, and I want to tank. That was my choice. I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance.

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 10:42 PM

Rolsdar2 wrote:

Thing is bro 99% of the Guardians on this board really dont care, the majority of us are sick to death of checking these forums every day and seeing this post at the top. If you wanna discuss Monks, you have a forum for it.

A guardian started this thread, not a monk SMILEY

Hak · 03-09-2005, 10:44 PM

You know, I just can't figure out why SoE just doesnt go ahead and make a new 8-bit graphics game with a Figher, Cleric, and Mage.........

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 10:45 PM

Choombatta wrote:

Monks are fighters, that get utilities of the scout class. You cannot tank like all fighters AND retain your "unique" skills amongst the fighter archtype.

If you have not grasped yet that a Monk is a Hybrid Fighter/Scout, then you really need to take a long hard look at your combat arts, and how they relate to other Fighter types, and Scout types.

You will see monks have alot of skills in common with Scout "archtype" abilities.

Please list the skills that monks get in common with scouts. Thanks.

I believe it is you who are uninformed about monks being a "fighter/scout" hybrid.

We have 0 combat arts that have to be performed behind the mob, we get no run speed enchancement, our invis is power based, worthless at 50 and has no attack that requires it. We do not get evac. We can't use bows and get no ranged specials. We can't flip the HO wheel.

The only thing you could maybe say is FD (swashes have it) but so do SKs (a fighter class) and invis (mages have it and scouts have it) and ours is the only one that isn't 12 hours and is based on power, and never upgrades, proving useless at 50.

So how, Mr. Informed, are we like scouts?

Wiou wrote:
I really don't think any other fighter archetype should be asked to be tanked for a raid mob. Not even an alternate.

Raids are crucial encounters.. you want the top of the line class for all the important roles. Period.

That's where guardians come in. Sorry, monks, but avoidance is NOT going to save you on raid mobs.

(this is coming from a monk)

Of course you think that. You played too much EQ1. You think monks are a DPS class who should be able to outdamage scouts. Heh.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-09-2005 09:48 AM

Ender · 03-09-2005, 10:55 PM

What is a top of the line class? Are you top of the line? Haha. This thread is funny. Y'all a buncha suckers.

Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-09-2005 09:57 AM

Choombatta · 03-09-2005, 11:00 PM

What Fighter Class, Mage Class, or Priest Class get arts that reduce their Hate?

Seems that is a Scout Archtype ability, and one Monks share with them.

Invis is Invis Gage, and what other Fighter class can invis themselves ( without totems ) like the scouts can?

How many Fighter Types get a true haste spell?

2, right?

Monk and Bezerker, right?

How many Bezerkers are complaining they cannot tank Raid Mobs as well as Guardians?

Is any of this starting to sink in yet Gage?

So why do YOU think monks get an art that DROPS THEIR AGGRO?

So they can better hold aggro?

/snicker

GangsterFi · 03-09-2005, 11:00 PM

Choombatta wrote:
Gangsterfist....you are a monk , right?

It honestly sounds like you have 0 clue on how Feign Death works.

If it works, you do not automatically regain your aggro when you stand up.

If FD works, the only thing you have to worry about is AE damage UNTIL you build your hate back up.

Really wonders how a monk who does not even know how FD works can be here claiming to know how to balance anything for monks.

I will once again ask, why would a class intended to tank every mob in the game have combat arts like Feign Death ( to reduce hate ) or Haste ( to increase DPS ).

Monks are fighters, that get utilities of the scout class. You cannot tank like all fighters AND retain your "unique" skills amongst the fighter archtype.

If you have not grasped yet that a Monk is a Hybrid Fighter/Scout, then you really need to take a long hard look at your combat arts, and how they relate to other Fighter types, and Scout types.

You will see monks have alot of skills in common with Scout "archtype" abilities.

Yes, I know how feign death line of skills work. They took away our /feign command too which allowed us to gage how well certain mobs see against it. Also, it is not that great of a utility. It only has a 75% success rate against under con mobs. So if I fight blues or below it works nicely, 3 out of 4 times. If I fight anything even or higher than it gets ify. Also, we lose all concentration buffs when on the ground, so if FD fails against one social, and works against another all our defensive conc buffs are now gone, we are on the group face down, which means our deflection will not work at all. Which means if FD fails you will die pretty quickly to just about any mob that can kill you. Due to linked socials in enganged combat it is impossible to actually engage a social and FD off that added socials. You have to proxy pull to actually do that, and if you proxy pull correctly like I do, you never have to use FD to get rid of added socials b/c you don't pull added socials.Really FD only shines when I run around solo to certain places. I can run solo to sol eye from the docks in lava storm b/c of FD. At the same time tho, I know a guardian who can train there on horseback solo and be fine and a druid who can train there with sow and be fine. So, I don't see FD being a game breaking skill like it was in EQ 1.Our self haste drains our HP I NEVER use it. I think its pretty much useless. If I am in a DPS role I will definately have to think about back up tanking. If the healer goes LD, or the other fighter just can't handle all the adds. Why would I want a skill that drained my life? To me that makes no sense for a tank to do that. Also, we have a combat art line that actually hurts us to do damage as well. So, what do monks have over other fighters? We have the least amount of mitigation. Zerks have better group and self haste buffs. Crusaders get magic use. We get deflection. However, a plate tank with a 800 shield rating tower shield really does not need our deflection buffs to get the job done, b/c the shield works IMO too well to begin with.So really please, if you are uninformed on how the monk works just ask me i will gladly explain how it works to you. Don't make assumptions about the monk class that we are superior in any way. BTW, did the feerrott raid instance last night. I did about 20 DPS that fight, b/c all my weapons were useless. So really I was pretty much useless. The only damage I did was from a proc buff.

Hak · 03-09-2005, 11:02 PM

I think I must be the next Albert Einstein or something becuase I read the book that came with the game...

Pg 27.. Guardain

Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any of a variety of weapons.

Pg 28.. Monk

Monks are disciplined combatabts who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and to deliver clean and efficient counterattacks.

and I decided I wanted to be the guy that stood out front and take a beating... guess which I picked??

And got what I wanted.....

pillb · 03-09-2005, 11:07 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance.

Having more than 1 Guardian on a raid is useless. If your the 2nd or 3rd Guardian your buffs wont stack your dps sucks and you only need one MT.Gage-Mikel Your Monk is wanted on RaidsYou get FD , You get Invis , You get DPS comparable to Scouts , You get Heal , AND AoE-Damage You Dont get to Main Tank Too.You get to be Helpful on a Raid That is what YOU getYou cant have EverythingYou want to nurf your DPS and utilities just to become a Raid Tank well TOO Bad Dude cause Your commrad 'Monks' according to Your Thread when you Posted to Them said they Don't WANT the same thing YOU want.

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:12 AM

pillb · 03-09-2005, 11:07 PM

Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here.23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everythingMods. Lock this thread already PleaseIt's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated.

Mig · 03-09-2005, 11:10 PM

GageYou do realize that all your attacks are kicks right? That most of the other warriors have only one kick? You do realize that is' really hard for fighters to land a kick on a orange/red con mob reliably? And that monks have the best chance?SO YOUR THE BEST CLASS TO COMPLETE FIGHTER HO'S! EVERY RAID THAT DOES HO'S SHOULD HAVE ONE OR MORE MONKS/BRUISERS! NOW PLEASE GET OFF OUR BOARDS!p.s. 24 pages of posts, and no one brought this up. sheesh. All of you need to go to gnorrath.com.

Message Edited by Migyb on 03-09-2005 01:15 PM

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:16 PM

Choombatta wrote:

What Fighter Class, Mage Class, or Priest Class get arts that reduce their Hate?

Seems that is a Scout Archtype ability, and one Monks share with them.

Invis is Invis Gage, and what other Fighter class can invis themselves ( without totems ) like the scouts can?

How many Fighter Types get a true haste spell?

2, right?

Monk and Bezerker, right?

How many Bezerkers are complaining they cannot tank Raid Mobs as well as Guardians?

Is any of this starting to sink in yet Gage?

So why do YOU think monks get an art that DROPS THEIR AGGRO?

So they can better hold aggro?

/snicker

LoL, that proves my point. We don't get an art that reduces hate; we get one that reduces hate on our target. I used to use it on healers when I was MTing before I outgrew that skill. Its our lvl 21 skill, "tranquil blessing". Oh and look at "face of the mountain" and "stone stance". It "greatly reduces the damage taken". Sounds like tank skills to me. Mr. Uninformed.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=1

Besides, did you miss all the ones we have that generate hate?

If you want to compare a 3 minute invis that is gray at 43 with a 12 hour invis that is upgradeable and required for most of the scouts high damage arts, go ahead. I think you are stretching though.

Um, why are you bringing up haste and comparing us to a berserker now? I thought we were fighter/scout hybrids?

Well since it lowers the hate on our target I presume its so a wizard can go nuke happy or a healer can chain w/o pulling aggro from the MT (which, since you know we have taunts that increase hate) is us.

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:17 PM

Hakra wrote:

I think I must be the next Albert Einstein or something becuase I read the book that came with the game...

Pg 27.. Guardain

Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any of a variety of weapons.

Pg 28.. Monk

Monks are disciplined combatabts who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and to deliver clean and efficient counterattacks.

and I decided I wanted to be the guy that stood out front and take a beating... guess which I picked??

And got what I wanted.....

Please don't make me qoute Moorgard from the zerker forums when their DPS got nerfed...

Those descriptions are flavor and lore. Not how the game is balanced.

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:19 PM

pillbub wrote:
Having more than 1 Guardian on a raid is useless. If your the 2nd or 3rd Guardian your buffs wont stack your dps sucks and you only need one MT.

Gage-Mikel Your Monk is wanted on Raids

You get FD , You get Invis , You get DPS comparable to Scouts , You get Heal , AND AoE-Damage You Dont get to Main Tank Too.

You get to be Helpful on a Raid That is what YOU get

You cant have Everything

You want to nurf your DPS and utilities just to become a Raid Tank well TOO Bad Dude cause Your commrad 'Monks' according to Your Thread when you Posted to Them said they Don't WANT the same thing YOU want.

DPS comparable to scouts = not for long. Its being changed.

FD = weee.

Invis = doesn't work past 43.

I get a heal that is 17% of total HP one a 5 minute timer, you want it?

I get ONE AoE. Hurray!

Actually I do get to MT, sorry SMILEY

Oh and it doesn't matter what the players want, it matters what SoE wants. SoE wants fighters to be tanks. The recent patches only reinforce that.

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:20 PM

pillbub wrote:
Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here.

23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everything

Mods. Lock this thread already Please

It's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated.

I posted that on a dare from a guardian. It isn't what I want at all SMILEY

I don't care if they want ballet dancing over tanking, that isn't how this game is designed. 90% of those pro-dps monks are from EQ1, where go figure, they were nerfed to a DPS only role.

You know, I couldn't have posted in the guardian forums if a GUARDIAN wouldn't have started this thread. Blame him.

Choombatta · 03-09-2005, 11:22 PM

So I will ask again Gage , since you avoid ever answering it.

Why would you give a class an art that REDUCES aggro if you were intended to TANK EVERYTHING in the game?

WHY?

If you can answer that question, then ask yourself why Guardians DO NOT get a skill that lowers their aggro?

Gansterfist, the moment you said that you regain all your aggro back once you stand up from FD PROVES you have no idea how the art works.

FD reduces hate, it does not put hate on hold.

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:25 PM

Choombatta wrote:

So I will ask again Gage , since you avoid ever answering it.

Why would you give a class an art that REDUCES aggro if you were intended to TANK EVERYTHING in the game?

WHY?

If you can answer that question, then ask yourself why Guardians DO NOT get a skill that lowers their aggro?

Hello, I did answer your question. We do not have a skill that reduces our aggro, we have one that reduces the aggro of our TARGET. Not us. Genius.

If you are talking about FD, I've always seen it as a solo tool, and since I MT on my monk, I've never used it in a group situation.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-09-2005 10:26 AM

Mig · 03-09-2005, 11:31 PM

But you still haven't answered my reply gage. You seem to have addressed every issue except that one. Monks are needed for HO's. They are the best fighter class to comeplete them. Therefore they are needed on raids. All the other warriors get like one kick chance to hit a raid mob, monks get many. So while another guardian on a raid is pretty useless, if you do ho's you'd want one or more monks/bruisers on a raid. Now if that isn't enough for you, and you MUST be the main tank as well, then.... that is purely ego talking and you need to go roll a guardian.

pillb · 03-09-2005, 11:35 PM

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:41 AM

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:41 PM

Migyb wrote:
But you still haven't answered my reply gage. You seem to have addressed every issue except that one.

Monks are needed for HO's. They are the best fighter class to comeplete them. Therefore they are needed on raids. All the other warriors get like one kick chance to hit a raid mob, monks get many.

So while another guardian on a raid is pretty useless, if you do ho's you'd want one or more monks/bruisers on a raid.

Now if that isn't enough for you, and you MUST be the main tank as well, then.... that is purely ego talking and you need to go roll a guardian.

You know that's actually a good point and one I hadn't thought of. Plus combined with our avoidance buff or the bruisers shrug off that does make a lot of sense.

Some of our kicks are that "sword" icon though. But still I think every tier we have two kicks on different timers.

Ender · 03-09-2005, 11:43 PM

OMG! NOT MAIN TANK! YOU DON'T SAY! YOU SOOOOO UBER! IF YOU NOT MAIN TANK THEN IT'S LIKE YOU CUT OFF YOUR BALLS AND FED IT TO ALLIGATORS! Children. . .please do the rest of the players of EQ2 a favor and UNINSTALL please.Pretty please, with sugar on top, uninstall the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing game.

Mig · 03-09-2005, 11:46 PM

You know that's actually a good point and one I hadn't thought of. Plus combined with our avoidance buff or the bruisers shrug off that does make a lot of sense.

Some of our kicks are that "sword" icon though. But still I think every tier we have two kicks on different timers.

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I spilled my coffee.Now you know that you have a vaild place in groups and raids. Also all the clases are like this. For example the Eye icon in HO's. Templars have a really hard time on this icon because it's a debuff. If the mob is orange/red con, then it's really hard to comeplete the HO's, on the other hand a fury can complete the HO quite easily because they have an EYE that's a dmg shield buff. All the classes are needed when it comes to HO's, they are the great balancer. Use your HO's well enough and it can make up for areas a team might be lacking in.

sidgb · 03-09-2005, 11:47 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

pillbub wrote:
Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here.

23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everything

Mods. Lock this thread already Please

It's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated.

I posted that on a dare from a guardian. It isn't what I want at all

I don't care if they want ballet dancing over tanking, that isn't how this game is designed. 90% of those pro-dps monks are from EQ1, where go figure, they were nerfed to a DPS only role.

You know, I couldn't have posted in the guardian forums if a GUARDIAN wouldn't have started this thread. Blame him.

Blame me, I started this thread and dared Gage on the other. Being a guardian I can take the beating.

Mig · 03-09-2005, 11:55 PM

This thread I think has run it's course. Somethings I think we all can come to agree on. All the fighters can tank regular content lvls 1-50.All the fighters can tank some of the raid mobs. All of the Plate fighters can take a large number of the harder raid mobs.Only Guardians can tank the most difficult of raid mobs. The there are no usless secondary tanks on raids because:CRUSADERS: can heal/DPS/off tank WARRIORS: can DPS/Guard/agro manageBRAWLERS: can DPS/off tank/ and COMPLETE HO's the easiest.

Message Edited by Migyb on 03-09-2005 01:56 PM

pillb · 03-09-2005, 11:56 PM

labi wrote:Monks were designed to be a Mix between a scout a guardian *i know you can say no were not blah blah blah* but thats pretty much what u guys are. And as far as i can see that aint a bad combo and im gona look into making one later on as a alt. But the fact remains u got a role on raids you cant mt certian raids and ur good dps. case closed

Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:58 AM

Gaige · 03-09-2005, 11:57 PM

pillbub wrote:

Monks were designed to be a Mix between a scout a guardian *i know you can say no were not blah blah blah* but thats pretty much what u guys are. And as far as i can see that aint a bad combo and im gona look into making one later on as a alt. But the fact remains u got a role on raids you cant mt certian raids and ur good dps. case closed

Sorry, I already proved we aren't a fighter/scout hybrid. As for our "good" dps, scouts will be better coming soon to a server near you!

Namil · 03-10-2005, 12:14 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Namilla wrote:

Gage:

You have tried to make this point in more than just this thread. This is also going on in the test server forums. About "why cant all tanks be =" and another on making all tanks the same for raid mobs. You continually try to push for this change because you made a choice that did not fit what you truly wanted to do. You have already been shot down by your fellow monks who like there class as is. So please let it rest now.

I didn't start any of the threads. A guardian started this one, a SK I believe started the one in test... etc etc. I can reply to whatever I want. My opinion is as valid as anyone elses.

I want to play a monk, and I want to tank. That was my choice. I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance.

Never said you started the thread, and sorry for bumping this again for all you Guardians out there. Just trying to state a fact that the horse is dead. No one here cares or really agrees with you. You are just taking pot shots at people and even your own class forums do not agree with you.

I think I get what your trying to do, you think that once your dead people will realize you were realy a martyr and that monks really do suck. <--- sarcasm is a weak minded weapon, but I am a Guardian were not supposed to be smart!

Ok I have to stop Gage is just to much fun to reply too! LOL Viva La Guardian

Faarwolf · 03-10-2005, 03:08 AM

I'm locking this thead as it has lost all usefulness and has devolved into nothing but attacks.

03-09-2005, 10:40 PM	#573
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Namilla wrote: Gage: You have tried to make this point in more than just this thread. This is also going on in the test server forums. About "why cant all tanks be =" and another on making all tanks the same for raid mobs. You continually try to push for this change because you made a choice that did not fit what you truly wanted to do. You have already been shot down by your fellow monks who like there class as is. So please let it rest now. I didn't start any of the threads. A guardian started this one, a SK I believe started the one in test... etc etc. I can reply to whatever I want. My opinion is as valid as anyone elses. I want to play a monk, and I want to tank. That was my choice. I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance. __________________

03-09-2005, 10:42 PM	#574
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Rolsdar2 wrote: Thing is bro 99% of the Guardians on this board really dont care, the majority of us are sick to death of checking these forums every day and seeing this post at the top. If you wanna discuss Monks, you have a forum for it. A guardian started this thread, not a monk __________________

03-09-2005, 10:45 PM	#576
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Choombatta wrote: Monks are fighters, that get utilities of the scout class. You cannot tank like all fighters AND retain your "unique" skills amongst the fighter archtype. If you have not grasped yet that a Monk is a Hybrid Fighter/Scout, then you really need to take a long hard look at your combat arts, and how they relate to other Fighter types, and Scout types. You will see monks have alot of skills in common with Scout "archtype" abilities. Please list the skills that monks get in common with scouts. Thanks. I believe it is you who are uninformed about monks being a "fighter/scout" hybrid. We have 0 combat arts that have to be performed behind the mob, we get no run speed enchancement, our invis is power based, worthless at 50 and has no attack that requires it. We do not get evac. We can't use bows and get no ranged specials. We can't flip the HO wheel. The only thing you could maybe say is FD (swashes have it) but so do SKs (a fighter class) and invis (mages have it and scouts have it) and ours is the only one that isn't 12 hours and is based on power, and never upgrades, proving useless at 50. So how, Mr. Informed, are we like scouts? Wiou wrote: I really don't think any other fighter archetype should be asked to be tanked for a raid mob. Not even an alternate. Raids are crucial encounters.. you want the top of the line class for all the important roles. Period. That's where guardians come in. Sorry, monks, but avoidance is NOT going to save you on raid mobs. (this is coming from a monk) Of course you think that. You played too much EQ1. You think monks are a DPS class who should be able to outdamage scouts. Heh. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-09-2005 09:48 AM __________________

03-09-2005, 11:00 PM	#578
Choombatta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 117	What Fighter Class, Mage Class, or Priest Class get arts that reduce their Hate? Seems that is a Scout Archtype ability, and one Monks share with them. Invis is Invis Gage, and what other Fighter class can invis themselves ( without totems ) like the scouts can? How many Fighter Types get a true haste spell? 2, right? Monk and Bezerker, right? How many Bezerkers are complaining they cannot tank Raid Mobs as well as Guardians? Is any of this starting to sink in yet Gage? So why do YOU think monks get an art that DROPS THEIR AGGRO? So they can better hold aggro? /snicker __________________

03-09-2005, 11:00 PM	#579
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Choombatta wrote: Gangsterfist....you are a monk , right? It honestly sounds like you have 0 clue on how Feign Death works. If it works, you do not automatically regain your aggro when you stand up. If FD works, the only thing you have to worry about is AE damage UNTIL you build your hate back up. Really wonders how a monk who does not even know how FD works can be here claiming to know how to balance anything for monks. I will once again ask, why would a class intended to tank every mob in the game have combat arts like Feign Death ( to reduce hate ) or Haste ( to increase DPS ). Monks are fighters, that get utilities of the scout class. You cannot tank like all fighters AND retain your "unique" skills amongst the fighter archtype. If you have not grasped yet that a Monk is a Hybrid Fighter/Scout, then you really need to take a long hard look at your combat arts, and how they relate to other Fighter types, and Scout types. You will see monks have alot of skills in common with Scout "archtype" abilities. Yes, I know how feign death line of skills work. They took away our /feign command too which allowed us to gage how well certain mobs see against it. Also, it is not that great of a utility. It only has a 75% success rate against under con mobs. So if I fight blues or below it works nicely, 3 out of 4 times. If I fight anything even or higher than it gets ify. Also, we lose all concentration buffs when on the ground, so if FD fails against one social, and works against another all our defensive conc buffs are now gone, we are on the group face down, which means our deflection will not work at all. Which means if FD fails you will die pretty quickly to just about any mob that can kill you. Due to linked socials in enganged combat it is impossible to actually engage a social and FD off that added socials. You have to proxy pull to actually do that, and if you proxy pull correctly like I do, you never have to use FD to get rid of added socials b/c you don't pull added socials.Really FD only shines when I run around solo to certain places. I can run solo to sol eye from the docks in lava storm b/c of FD. At the same time tho, I know a guardian who can train there on horseback solo and be fine and a druid who can train there with sow and be fine. So, I don't see FD being a game breaking skill like it was in EQ 1.Our self haste drains our HP I NEVER use it. I think its pretty much useless. If I am in a DPS role I will definately have to think about back up tanking. If the healer goes LD, or the other fighter just can't handle all the adds. Why would I want a skill that drained my life? To me that makes no sense for a tank to do that. Also, we have a combat art line that actually hurts us to do damage as well. So, what do monks have over other fighters? We have the least amount of mitigation. Zerks have better group and self haste buffs. Crusaders get magic use. We get deflection. However, a plate tank with a 800 shield rating tower shield really does not need our deflection buffs to get the job done, b/c the shield works IMO too well to begin with.So really please, if you are uninformed on how the monk works just ask me i will gladly explain how it works to you. Don't make assumptions about the monk class that we are superior in any way. BTW, did the feerrott raid instance last night. I did about 20 DPS that fight, b/c all my weapons were useless. So really I was pretty much useless. The only damage I did was from a proc buff.

03-09-2005, 08:10 PM	#571
Arbl Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1	Didn't read all posts but I must say, I am glad I brought some cheese. :smileytongue: For those who think "balance" and "equal" are the same, go grab a dictionary or find one online. :smileywink: For those who actually thought all fighter, caster, classes would be equal, I got this bridge I need to sell. :smileysurprised: Game designers are like politicians, they say what will draw them the most people and worry about the problems they caused afterwards. It's no reason to attack other classes that you may, one day in the future, wish never got nerfed because of the complaints. Each of these classes has been around longer than either EQ, or any computer game, and were defined long ago as to their places in battle. A DPS fighter is not a tank, just as a tank is not a DPS fighter. A nuking caster is not a healer, just as a healer is not a nuking caster. All have a job, even if God says different, it won't change. I want that guy covered in steel getting beat up, I want the healer casting heals, I want the nukers, nuking, I want the DPS doing damage and not getting hit. Why do I want all that? Mobs die fast when it happens properly, and we can move to the next mob or step of the quest or whatever we are doing and HAVE FUN. If I am part of a group or raid operating as they should and have fun, I don't care which I am because, it is a group effort and a group achievement. Since it's a group, it matters not if I am the tank or the healer or DPS, because all were part of it.

03-09-2005, 08:30 PM	#572
Wiou Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 672	I really don't think any other fighter archetype should be asked to be tanked for a raid mob. Not even an alternate.Raids are crucial encounters.. you want the top of the line class for all the important roles. Period.That's where guardians come in. Sorry, monks, but avoidance is NOT going to save you on raid mobs.(this is coming from a monk)

03-09-2005, 10:44 PM	#575
Hak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	You know, I just can't figure out why SoE just doesnt go ahead and make a new 8-bit graphics game with a Figher, Cleric, and Mage.........

03-09-2005, 10:55 PM	#577
Ender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	What is a top of the line class? Are you top of the line? Haha. This thread is funny. Y'all a buncha suckers. Message Edited by EnderMX on 03-09-2005 09:57 AM

03-09-2005, 11:02 PM	#580
Hak Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	I think I must be the next Albert Einstein or something becuase I read the book that came with the game... Pg 27.. Guardain Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any of a variety of weapons. Pg 28.. Monk Monks are disciplined combatabts who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and to deliver clean and efficient counterattacks. and I decided I wanted to be the guy that stood out front and take a beating... guess which I picked?? And got what I wanted.....

03-09-2005, 11:07 PM	#581
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Gage-Mikel wrote:I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance. Having more than 1 Guardian on a raid is useless. If your the 2nd or 3rd Guardian your buffs wont stack your dps sucks and you only need one MT.Gage-Mikel Your Monk is wanted on RaidsYou get FD , You get Invis , You get DPS comparable to Scouts , You get Heal , AND AoE-Damage You Dont get to Main Tank Too.You get to be Helpful on a Raid That is what YOU getYou cant have EverythingYou want to nurf your DPS and utilities just to become a Raid Tank well TOO Bad Dude cause Your commrad 'Monks' according to Your Thread when you Posted to Them said they Don't WANT the same thing YOU want. Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:12 AM

03-09-2005, 11:07 PM	#582
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here.23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everythingMods. Lock this thread already PleaseIt's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated.

03-09-2005, 11:10 PM	#583
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	GageYou do realize that all your attacks are kicks right? That most of the other warriors have only one kick? You do realize that is' really hard for fighters to land a kick on a orange/red con mob reliably? And that monks have the best chance?SO YOUR THE BEST CLASS TO COMPLETE FIGHTER HO'S! EVERY RAID THAT DOES HO'S SHOULD HAVE ONE OR MORE MONKS/BRUISERS! NOW PLEASE GET OFF OUR BOARDS!p.s. 24 pages of posts, and no one brought this up. sheesh. All of you need to go to gnorrath.com. Message Edited by Migyb on 03-09-2005 01:15 PM

03-09-2005, 11:16 PM	#584
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Choombatta wrote: What Fighter Class, Mage Class, or Priest Class get arts that reduce their Hate? Seems that is a Scout Archtype ability, and one Monks share with them. Invis is Invis Gage, and what other Fighter class can invis themselves ( without totems ) like the scouts can? How many Fighter Types get a true haste spell? 2, right? Monk and Bezerker, right? How many Bezerkers are complaining they cannot tank Raid Mobs as well as Guardians? Is any of this starting to sink in yet Gage? So why do YOU think monks get an art that DROPS THEIR AGGRO? So they can better hold aggro? /snicker LoL, that proves my point. We don't get an art that reduces hate; we get one that reduces hate on our target. I used to use it on healers when I was MTing before I outgrew that skill. Its our lvl 21 skill, "tranquil blessing". Oh and look at "face of the mountain" and "stone stance". It "greatly reduces the damage taken". Sounds like tank skills to me. Mr. Uninformed. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=1 Besides, did you miss all the ones we have that generate hate? If you want to compare a 3 minute invis that is gray at 43 with a 12 hour invis that is upgradeable and required for most of the scouts high damage arts, go ahead. I think you are stretching though. Um, why are you bringing up haste and comparing us to a berserker now? I thought we were fighter/scout hybrids? Well since it lowers the hate on our target I presume its so a wizard can go nuke happy or a healer can chain w/o pulling aggro from the MT (which, since you know we have taunts that increase hate) is us. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:17 PM	#585
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Hakra wrote: I think I must be the next Albert Einstein or something becuase I read the book that came with the game... Pg 27.. Guardain Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any of a variety of weapons. Pg 28.. Monk Monks are disciplined combatabts who specialize in martial arts. They hone their bodies to be nimble to avoid enemy blows, and to deliver clean and efficient counterattacks. and I decided I wanted to be the guy that stood out front and take a beating... guess which I picked?? And got what I wanted..... Please don't make me qoute Moorgard from the zerker forums when their DPS got nerfed... Those descriptions are flavor and lore. Not how the game is balanced. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:19 PM	#586
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: Having more than 1 Guardian on a raid is useless. If your the 2nd or 3rd Guardian your buffs wont stack your dps sucks and you only need one MT. Gage-Mikel Your Monk is wanted on Raids You get FD , You get Invis , You get DPS comparable to Scouts , You get Heal , AND AoE-Damage You Dont get to Main Tank Too. You get to be Helpful on a Raid That is what YOU get You cant have Everything You want to nurf your DPS and utilities just to become a Raid Tank well TOO Bad Dude cause Your commrad 'Monks' according to Your Thread when you Posted to Them said they Don't WANT the same thing YOU want. DPS comparable to scouts = not for long. Its being changed. FD = weee. Invis = doesn't work past 43. I get a heal that is 17% of total HP one a 5 minute timer, you want it? I get ONE AoE. Hurray! Actually I do get to MT, sorry Oh and it doesn't matter what the players want, it matters what SoE wants. SoE wants fighters to be tanks. The recent patches only reinforce that. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:20 PM	#587
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here. 23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everything Mods. Lock this thread already Please It's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated. I posted that on a dare from a guardian. It isn't what I want at all I don't care if they want ballet dancing over tanking, that isn't how this game is designed. 90% of those pro-dps monks are from EQ1, where go figure, they were nerfed to a DPS only role. You know, I couldn't have posted in the guardian forums if a GUARDIAN wouldn't have started this thread. Blame him. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:22 PM	#588
Choombatta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 117	So I will ask again Gage , since you avoid ever answering it. Why would you give a class an art that REDUCES aggro if you were intended to TANK EVERYTHING in the game? WHY? If you can answer that question, then ask yourself why Guardians DO NOT get a skill that lowers their aggro? Gansterfist, the moment you said that you regain all your aggro back once you stand up from FD PROVES you have no idea how the art works. FD reduces hate, it does not put hate on hold. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:25 PM	#589
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Choombatta wrote: So I will ask again Gage , since you avoid ever answering it. Why would you give a class an art that REDUCES aggro if you were intended to TANK EVERYTHING in the game? WHY? If you can answer that question, then ask yourself why Guardians DO NOT get a skill that lowers their aggro? Hello, I did answer your question. We do not have a skill that reduces our aggro, we have one that reduces the aggro of our TARGET. Not us. Genius. If you are talking about FD, I've always seen it as a solo tool, and since I MT on my monk, I've never used it in a group situation. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-09-2005 10:26 AM __________________

03-09-2005, 11:31 PM	#590
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	But you still haven't answered my reply gage. You seem to have addressed every issue except that one. Monks are needed for HO's. They are the best fighter class to comeplete them. Therefore they are needed on raids. All the other warriors get like one kick chance to hit a raid mob, monks get many. So while another guardian on a raid is pretty useless, if you do ho's you'd want one or more monks/bruisers on a raid. Now if that isn't enough for you, and you MUST be the main tank as well, then.... that is purely ego talking and you need to go roll a guardian.

03-09-2005, 11:35 PM	#591
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:41 AM

03-09-2005, 11:41 PM	#592
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Migyb wrote: But you still haven't answered my reply gage. You seem to have addressed every issue except that one. Monks are needed for HO's. They are the best fighter class to comeplete them. Therefore they are needed on raids. All the other warriors get like one kick chance to hit a raid mob, monks get many. So while another guardian on a raid is pretty useless, if you do ho's you'd want one or more monks/bruisers on a raid. Now if that isn't enough for you, and you MUST be the main tank as well, then.... that is purely ego talking and you need to go roll a guardian. You know that's actually a good point and one I hadn't thought of. Plus combined with our avoidance buff or the bruisers shrug off that does make a lot of sense. Some of our kicks are that "sword" icon though. But still I think every tier we have two kicks on different timers. __________________

03-09-2005, 11:43 PM	#593
Ender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	OMG! NOT MAIN TANK! YOU DON'T SAY! YOU SOOOOO UBER! IF YOU NOT MAIN TANK THEN IT'S LIKE YOU CUT OFF YOUR BALLS AND FED IT TO ALLIGATORS! Children. . .please do the rest of the players of EQ2 a favor and UNINSTALL please.Pretty please, with sugar on top, uninstall the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing game.

03-09-2005, 11:46 PM	#594
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	You know that's actually a good point and one I hadn't thought of. Plus combined with our avoidance buff or the bruisers shrug off that does make a lot of sense. Some of our kicks are that "sword" icon though. But still I think every tier we have two kicks on different timers. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I spilled my coffee.Now you know that you have a vaild place in groups and raids. Also all the clases are like this. For example the Eye icon in HO's. Templars have a really hard time on this icon because it's a debuff. If the mob is orange/red con, then it's really hard to comeplete the HO's, on the other hand a fury can complete the HO quite easily because they have an EYE that's a dmg shield buff. All the classes are needed when it comes to HO's, they are the great balancer. Use your HO's well enough and it can make up for areas a team might be lacking in.

03-09-2005, 11:47 PM	#595
sidgb Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 144	Gage-Mikel wrote: pillbub wrote: Gage-Mikel. Why do you continue posting in the Guardian section if you want your MONKS Dps/Skills/Raid-Value lowered in exchange for tanking Raid Mobs Why not not post on the MONK BOARDS? Oh , Wait. You did that already and the players over there Rejected you by saying they wanted DPS and abilities over Tanking so instead of posting on the MONK Board you come cry over here. 23 Pages now of Gage-Mikel crying his Monk can't do everything Mods. Lock this thread already Please It's clear Gage has no life and will continue bumping his MONK PROBLEMS in the GUARDIAN section seeing as his monks don't agree with his posts and frankly we are sick of seeing this floated. I posted that on a dare from a guardian. It isn't what I want at all I don't care if they want ballet dancing over tanking, that isn't how this game is designed. 90% of those pro-dps monks are from EQ1, where go figure, they were nerfed to a DPS only role. You know, I couldn't have posted in the guardian forums if a GUARDIAN wouldn't have started this thread. Blame him. Blame me, I started this thread and dared Gage on the other. Being a guardian I can take the beating. __________________ GYnasis - 76 Guardian Cataclysm - 74 Templar Cylleste - 74 Monk -Permafrost-

03-09-2005, 11:55 PM	#596
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	This thread I think has run it's course. Somethings I think we all can come to agree on. All the fighters can tank regular content lvls 1-50.All the fighters can tank some of the raid mobs. All of the Plate fighters can take a large number of the harder raid mobs.Only Guardians can tank the most difficult of raid mobs. The there are no usless secondary tanks on raids because:CRUSADERS: can heal/DPS/off tank WARRIORS: can DPS/Guard/agro manageBRAWLERS: can DPS/off tank/ and COMPLETE HO's the easiest. Message Edited by Migyb on 03-09-2005 01:56 PM

03-09-2005, 11:56 PM	#597
pillb Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 74	labi wrote:Monks were designed to be a Mix between a scout a guardian i know you can say no were not blah blah blah but thats pretty much what u guys are. And as far as i can see that aint a bad combo and im gona look into making one later on as a alt. But the fact remains u got a role on raids you cant mt certian raids and ur good dps. case closed Message Edited by pillbub on 03-09-2005 10:58 AM

03-09-2005, 11:57 PM	#598
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	pillbub wrote: Monks were designed to be a Mix between a scout a guardian i know you can say no were not blah blah blah but thats pretty much what u guys are. And as far as i can see that aint a bad combo and im gona look into making one later on as a alt. But the fact remains u got a role on raids you cant mt certian raids and ur good dps. case closed Sorry, I already proved we aren't a fighter/scout hybrid. As for our "good" dps, scouts will be better coming soon to a server near you! __________________

03-10-2005, 12:14 AM	#599
Namil Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 73	Gage-Mikel wrote: Namilla wrote: Gage: You have tried to make this point in more than just this thread. This is also going on in the test server forums. About "why cant all tanks be =" and another on making all tanks the same for raid mobs. You continually try to push for this change because you made a choice that did not fit what you truly wanted to do. You have already been shot down by your fellow monks who like there class as is. So please let it rest now. I didn't start any of the threads. A guardian started this one, a SK I believe started the one in test... etc etc. I can reply to whatever I want. My opinion is as valid as anyone elses. I want to play a monk, and I want to tank. That was my choice. I can already tank all the content from 1 to 50, raids should also be part of that balance. Never said you started the thread, and sorry for bumping this again for all you Guardians out there. Just trying to state a fact that the horse is dead. No one here cares or really agrees with you. You are just taking pot shots at people and even your own class forums do not agree with you. I think I get what your trying to do, you think that once your dead people will realize you were realy a martyr and that monks really do suck. <--- sarcasm is a weak minded weapon, but I am a Guardian were not supposed to be smart! Ok I have to stop Gage is just to much fun to reply too! LOL Viva La Guardian

03-10-2005, 03:08 AM	#600
Faarwolf Developer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Orange County, Ca Posts: 76	I'm locking this thead as it has lost all usefulness and has devolved into nothing but attacks. __________________ ____________________ Faarwolf No Longer the Wrath of the Mods "Where once I enforced, I shall now enjoin."