Guardians seem to be the slowest pullers

Brist · 02-06-2005, 04:30 AM

I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group

1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game

2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green

I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that

I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please

detriment · 02-06-2005, 06:14 AM

i think i pull at a fairly steady pace, but i have a firm guideline i follow ALLWAYS its better to have slower, slugish pulls and consistant exp, then be pulling at break neck speeds with 3 full bubs of debt, think about that a bit SMILEY

TunaBoo · 02-06-2005, 06:24 AM

Hum.. went wiz. saw too many of #2.. made a #1 ;pI pull like a racehorse.. know the limits of my group and keep them coming. It's almost at trance.. maybe 5 second downtime between groups, depending on how far apart the mobs are. Guildies complain grouping with me is like a 2nd job, but then they miss me when they get a turtle tank.

Arsen · 02-06-2005, 06:45 AM

Sounds like your complaint has nothing to do with anything class related and everything related to the style of play of certain people. Not really sure what to say other than you will find these different behaviors in pretty much any figher class.

Raea · 02-06-2005, 12:08 PM

LOL Tuna... I get the same thing... I always try to make it my goal to run the cleric OOP heh... Results? Great XP, lots of drops, and happy groupies...

I think it's a playstye thing...

if i need combat buffs, i'll buff during the fight... generates agro for me to boot...

Aenae · 02-06-2005, 04:44 PM

I pull until my groupmates scream for mercy!

No really, I'm one of the first category on your list, someone who has been around for a very very long time and I manage the pulls so as to keep us all alive but have the exp flow in as fast as possible. I don't think this is tied to just being a guardian though, any tank who really knows their stuff can and should do a great job for you. My suggestion is to add those who do a good job to your friends list, and avoid reinviting those who perform poorly.

- Manii Names

- Guardian of Najena

Aenae · 02-06-2005, 04:45 PM

I pull until my groupmates scream for mercy!

No really, I'm one of the first category on your list, someone who has been around for a very very long time and I manage the pulls so as to keep us all alive but have the exp flow in as fast as possible. I don't think this is tied to just being a guardian though, any tank who really knows their stuff can and should do a great job for you. My suggestion is to add those who do a good job to your friends list, and avoid reinviting those who perform poorly.

- Manii Names

- Guardian of Najena

zorros · 02-06-2005, 05:06 PM

I dont stop pulling till the healers say stop or someone goes afk.

Dont blame the class Blame the player.

VonStein · 02-06-2005, 09:31 PM

Bristaa wrote:

I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group

1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game

2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green

I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that

I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please

Hmmm.... so an expert player is one who pulls...and pulls... and pulls.... I see...

As someone who plays both a Guardian, and a zerk... and a Bruiser... and an SK... and most importantly... an Inquisitor (and yes all over 20th....) how fast I pull is dependent on how good the rest of the

group is.... ESPECIALLY my healer....

If I'm playing my Inquis, and the tank is pulling when I'm under 3/5 power??? I'll say somthing once.... second time??? I'm outa there.... Especialy since they upgraded critters out there....

I had a guy pullin when I was totally out of power, because of a couple of adds.... and then had the guts to say it was MY fault when the group wiped..... right....

I've also had people complain that I'm pullin too slow, when the only healer in the group turned out to be usin summoned food.... doh....

Fast pulling is fantastic... if the group can support it....

TunaBoo · 02-07-2005, 02:12 AM

VonSteinan wrote:
Bristaa wrote:
I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group

1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game

2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green

I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that

I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please

Hmmm.... so an expert player is one who pulls...and pulls... and pulls.... I see...

As someone who plays both a Guardian, and a zerk... and a Bruiser... and an SK... and most importantly... an Inquisitor (and yes all over 20th....) how fast I pull is dependent on how good the rest of the
group is.... ESPECIALLY my healer....
If I'm playing my Inquis, and the tank is pulling when I'm under 3/5 power??? I'll say somthing once.... second time??? I'm outa there.... Especialy since they upgraded critters out there....

I had a guy pullin when I was totally out of power, because of a couple of adds.... and then had the guts to say it was MY fault when the group wiped..... right....
I've also had people complain that I'm pullin too slow, when the only healer in the group turned out to be usin summoned food.... doh....

Fast pulling is fantastic... if the group can support it....

Playing to 22 does not an expert healer/tank make.

Dalthenn · 02-07-2005, 02:50 AM

Bristaa wrote:I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please

Grond · 02-07-2005, 07:07 AM

In my humble opinion a guardian is a very hard class to play well, but if you are a # 1 as you say it then you will always be the group leader.

We hardly ever get the praise but a good guardian makes for the single best group people can have. A good guardian needs to realize that it isn't just about tanking. You have the whole group to worry about. It's your job to have that text book knowledge, to be able to watch for adds, do a little dps, and hold aggro all at the same time.

I found a good way to tell the true skill of a guardian is in the use of his skills. For example at 32 I can easily kill 38 solo mobs, but I have seen other 32 guardians die or barely come out alive while I'm taking the second one. The difference? I have every skill I'm going to use lined up ahead of time, HO's, buff duration, and so on planned from the start. If there is a time I'm not using a skill for 2 seconds it's because I've been stunned.

I have seen Guardians out tanked by scout classes. We've become a tech class even more so in this game, and it takes a good guardian to have perfect control over a group and abilities.

Rozz · 02-07-2005, 12:41 PM

Well, i pull slow SMILEY

I get a new group nearly every evening and i start slowly. I have to find the rythm WITH the group, look at their manabars and i ask before bigger pulls if everybody is ready.If i know the groupmates well i can do it faster and without warnings etc. because they know what to do.Speed of pull is not -> Ability of the Guardian ClassSpeed of pull is -> (Personal style/Group performance) x Knowing the group inside out

Demolitio · 02-07-2005, 02:29 PM

For me,I'll start out pulling slow. Making sure everyone is good to go. Once I know how the group works together, I'll step it up a notch.Other reasons for pulling on the slow side:Might be unfamiliar with area. Don't want to pull adds. Don't want to get lost either if it's a long pull.Aside from that. If I know my group can handle the extras, and I'm comfortable, then I'll pull until I think I'll have trouble keeping aggro, or the healer might have trouble keeping up. I also take the power reserves of DPS classes into account. Usually once I have my groove going. It's a free for all.

Kamce · 02-08-2005, 04:00 AM

I tend to pull fast but will slow down if the group is not comfortable with the speed. I also try to manage the healer's power bar by the type of mob I pull. If we are fighting some tough ^^s and the power bar drops down pretty hard, then I will pull some solo or regular or ^ group mobs in range to keep the experience moving along while the power builds back up for the next ^^ pull.

dpsman · 02-08-2005, 06:41 AM

I 'm a 39 Guardian and it's the group that determine's if i pull slow or fast, in a new group i'll start out slow and then pick up the pace according to the groups ability, i fail to see how the speed of a pull can possibly have anything to do with the guardians ability. I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls.

Axterix · 02-08-2005, 09:11 AM

The goal of the puller is to try and kill the group without letting the group catch on that you are trying to do that.

Unless you are in a great group. In that case, it is okay if they figure it out.

kenji · 02-08-2005, 11:09 AM

heh fast or slow really depends on the groupmates and what the puller is thinking, if he consider the group is great, pull will always fast...

if he refuse to pull even whole grp full of power..then that must be the player AFK...who dun want to xp fastest as possible? =P

Arsen · 02-08-2005, 11:27 AM

dpsman wrote:

I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls.

Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off.

grindell187 · 02-08-2005, 11:41 AM

Arsenal wrote:

dpsman wrote:

I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls.

Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off.

well for the time that i played eq1, monks pulled cause they could FD without fear of it faling 9/10 times. i know that rangers pulled also cause they could use their ranged attack to pull from distances. but pulling in eq2 is so basic that if you can afford for the scout to go during the last 10-15% of a mobs health and have the tank smack it with a taunt then keep going till the priest says stop. only way i dont suggest using this is if you are pulling alot of mobs in a group..but 1 ^^ or like 2 ^ is easy enough to have the scout go and get them.

grindell the monk

perma-server

Jol · 02-08-2005, 09:16 PM

Expert player) The person that feels out the limitation of his group before pulling too many and too fast and getting them all killed like a [FaarNerfed!].

When you play with the same folks all the time, you have a rhythm. If it's a new group, you need to work up to it. Sometimes you need to pull slow if they use up all their power too fast. They will get the hang of it.

I'd rather have people tell me to pull faster then to slow down, so I work my way up.

Dart · 02-08-2005, 09:32 PM

grindell187 wrote:

Arsenal wrote:

dpsman wrote:

I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls.

Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off.

well for the time that i played eq1, monks pulled cause they could FD without fear of it faling 9/10 times. i know that rangers pulled also cause they could use their ranged attack to pull from distances. but pulling in eq2 is so basic that if you can afford for the scout to go during the last 10-15% of a mobs health and have the tank smack it with a taunt then keep going till the priest says stop. only way i dont suggest using this is if you are pulling alot of mobs in a group..but 1 ^^ or like 2 ^ is easy enough to have the scout go and get them.

grindell the monk

perma-server

Actually having a scout pull or any other class works well. Designate a puller, tank stays with group as soon as the puller engages and gets agro, ill start to buff. After the second group buff the mobs will tear right for me, in camp, with all others, then Ill proceed to AE taunt ect.... meaning the puller seldom gets hit. Its not a bad way to pull really)

dpsman · 02-08-2005, 10:00 PM

OMG Bristaa, I just noticed you are the one that started the huge thread "Why I kick people out of my group"

I think maybe the best thing for you to do is 6 box, cause most people are not going to live up to your expectations, if I was the tank and you started complaining about slow pulling I would kick you from the group. This game is not always about mindless powerleveling, sometimes I enjoy getting to know people and chatting as well. I've met people like you in eq1 that freaked out cause i went to pull a new mob when the mob in camp was at 12% instead of 15% and was guilty of waisting .4 seconds of there time. They need to start another server dedicated solely to ULTRA UBER EXPERT PLAYERS, so you can have a place to play and not get upset.

WabbitHunt · 02-09-2005, 10:46 PM

dpsman wrote:

OMG Bristaa, I just noticed you are the one that started the huge thread "Why I kick people out of my group"

Maybe she's attempting to understand group members/classes and restructure her way of thinking? You could have left off the 'omg' and the 2nd paragraph, and instead used a constructive question.

Bristaa -

There's a fine line between a good tank and a poor one. In regards to us guardians I've come to the conclusion that a quality guardian:

- Gets comfortable with the group by pulling slow at first

- Acclimates to the group over time and modifies his/her pulling by what he deems the group able to handle

- He/she takes over leadership and is responsible for the outcome of the group.

- If someone is AFK it's his responsibility to know this, unless they of course blatantly step away from the console without mentioning it. This can be unnoticeable if the group is pulling at a steady pace and on the next pull the kill is slower or someone dies, or...etc.

- If mana is low and/or the group is having difficulty killing what is being pulled it is the guardians responsibility to adjust the group to these characteristics

- Pays attention to group chat. If someone is dissatisfied with the current course the group is taking the guardian should make note of this and adjust. If someone wants to try other tactics/areas/etc the guardian should adjust, take stock of the situation and adjust if needed.

- Will be aware of his/her surroundings (use different camera modes) and agro any adds that come along the moment that mob "notices" the group

- Is well aware that shields are superior to a 2nd dual wielded weapon. If the guardian is tanking and dual wielding then something is wrong and warning lights should go off. That guardian will either be expecting to die a few times that night because they are used to it or else is naive to the fact that shields will not only add on hundreds of AC (Shiny Brass(?) Shield is 455 AC) but offer other bonuses like advanced damage avoidance.

- Will always have his gear in the yellow/orange stages of use.

- Will use his/her buffs to cover group members. Protective buffs should always be layed upon the weakest members of a group who should not/could not take a hit that a guardian can (i.e. casters for example, although healers are in this category too).

- As leader of a group a guardian should be proactive in keeping a group morale high. If someone is bringing the group down then find a rep. Take it upon the guardians reputation that if he/she deems someone in group needs replaced by HORRIBLE actions to either group members or play style and has been warned enough times (use your own discretion here) then get rid of them. A group will live or die through cohesiveness.

Pulling slow/quick doesn't really make a guardian. His/her actions do. I don't know the gripe you had in another post and frankly don't care. You had a valid question and (most) people are answering it in a mature way. As a group leader I reserve the right to form the group, and when I form the group unless a group member has a friend/significant other wanting in, then I'll get reps I need. If someone is being a dik then I'll boot them. Just because some dude is in my group doesn't give them the right to be an [FaarNerfed!].

You can probably add to that list up above but those are what I go by. Skills, keeping the group alive at all cost, knowing your character and its abilities/limits, knowing your groups abilities/limits, gear upgraded, skills upgraded, and knowing the mobs you are fighting. Tough class to play - that's why there is a huge population of horrible, crappy guardians out there while a few of us are [FaarNerfed!] good at what we do.

-WH

Curati · 02-10-2005, 12:44 AM

Ill just say this about my method of pulling...

PULL TIL THE HEALER CRYS!:smileyvery-happy:

AngelR · 02-10-2005, 07:20 PM

I liken pulling to dancing: those who are not confident in their abilities tend not to do it because there is a sense of being "under the microscope". It's a role where you feel that people are watching you, waiting for you to screw up (and unfortunately this is more true with pulling than it is with dancing).

The conundrum is that, with both, actually doing it is the only way to get better, and to gain more confidence.

The last similarity is that they are less sciences than they are arts. Some one can say to you "move your arms like this, and your legs like this", and you can replicate those movements yet you are most certainly not dancing (macarena. It's all about finding the rhythm, feeling the ebb and flow of the music/group, and staying in the pocket.

Tuna and others have called it a trance... I refer to it as being "in the zone". (Yeah, cliche, but it fits). When my regular group is in hardcore exp mode, they don't see any chat from me other than my Incoming or HO Trigger macros. They all laugh, saying I'm oblivious to everything else that is going on (they are a rather chatty group of folks). But what they don't know is that I take it as a compliment: if they feel safe enough to be goofing around in chat while we are taking on a 4 or 5 mob group encounter, then I'm doing my job. And we are all having fun and being productive.

My point is this: don't expect everyone to be a stellar puller... it is a high exposure/high stress role. Work with them, give them pointers where you can, and be encouraging. If you are in a group leadership role, then employ sound leadership tactics: positive reinforcement coupled with constructive criticism can produce amazing results in little time.

If we don't give these people the chance to make their mistakes, and the solutions so they can learn from them, they will never be good pullers. And while the elitist in all of us wants there to be a population of poor players so we can look good, isn't the better alternative to have an educated player base? It makes our class look better, and it makes everyone happier.

/em smiles sheepishly and steps off his soapbox.

GEKK · 02-10-2005, 07:27 PM

Boy do you win the master of the obvious award. this is the dumbest post I have ever see. You say you see 2 types of guardians those that know how to play and those that don't. Well cant you say that about every class?

stop trying to incite the Guardian community and go troll elsewhere.

Vulking · 02-10-2005, 11:41 PM

Some of the comments I have about the speed of pulling revolve around the level of group members to the Gaurdian.

If I as a guardian am of higher level I pull faster, confident in the pull because I know the con color. When group members are higher, Im not always sure of the pull because we are usally in a tougher area and mobs are orange and red with up arrows to me, I pull slower.

Secondly, unfamilarity with an area will slow me down a lot. I dont know where all the mobs are hiding.

Third, how I pull either with a taunt, by using a bow, or just hitting the creature. I tend to use a bow if in unfamilar areas or im uncomfortable with the group or im just starting out with a group. I'll taunt with a hit if the mob is easy for me to kill and I will use a taunt when im in a groove or im familar with an area.

All of these affect the speed at which I pull, but Im also cautious by nature which tends to slow me down.

Tomanak · 02-11-2005, 01:30 AM

Its defintely a personal thing, not a class thing. Some PEOPLE pull faster and better than others. It has absoloutely nothing to do with what class they are playing.

The speed at which I pull is dependant on the party. While in pick up groups I tend to keep an eye on the healers power and as long as it appears to be over 2/3rd full, unless asked not to, pull as soon as the mob is down..chest drop or not (which tends to annoy some people).

I do this on a guild raid and get a tell from the leader stating that 'I dont know how you do it in pickup groups, but dont do that here.'

I base my pulls on what the group wants and if you dont care for the rate at which I pull (and the rest of the group agrees) well then find another tank more suitable and I'll find another group.

WabbitHunt · 02-11-2005, 11:01 PM

Tomanak wrote:

I do this on a guild raid and get a tell from the leader stating that 'I dont know how you do it in pickup groups, but dont do that here.'

That leader is probably either a caster or a ranger...man that tell would annoy me =).

02-06-2005, 06:24 AM	#3
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Hum.. went wiz. saw too many of #2.. made a #1 ;pI pull like a racehorse.. know the limits of my group and keep them coming. It's almost at trance.. maybe 5 second downtime between groups, depending on how far apart the mobs are. Guildies complain grouping with me is like a 2nd job, but then they miss me when they get a turtle tank. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

02-06-2005, 06:45 AM	#4
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Sounds like your complaint has nothing to do with anything class related and everything related to the style of play of certain people. Not really sure what to say other than you will find these different behaviors in pretty much any figher class. __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

02-06-2005, 04:44 PM	#6
Aenae Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	I pull until my groupmates scream for mercy! No really, I'm one of the first category on your list, someone who has been around for a very very long time and I manage the pulls so as to keep us all alive but have the exp flow in as fast as possible. I don't think this is tied to just being a guardian though, any tank who really knows their stuff can and should do a great job for you. My suggestion is to add those who do a good job to your friends list, and avoid reinviting those who perform poorly. - Manii Names - Guardian of Najena __________________ - Aenae / Influential

02-06-2005, 04:45 PM	#7
Aenae Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	I pull until my groupmates scream for mercy! No really, I'm one of the first category on your list, someone who has been around for a very very long time and I manage the pulls so as to keep us all alive but have the exp flow in as fast as possible. I don't think this is tied to just being a guardian though, any tank who really knows their stuff can and should do a great job for you. My suggestion is to add those who do a good job to your friends list, and avoid reinviting those who perform poorly. - Manii Names - Guardian of Najena __________________ - Aenae / Influential

02-06-2005, 09:31 PM	#9
VonStein Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	Bristaa wrote: I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group 1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game 2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please Hmmm.... so an expert player is one who pulls...and pulls... and pulls.... I see... As someone who plays both a Guardian, and a zerk... and a Bruiser... and an SK... and most importantly... an Inquisitor (and yes all over 20th....) how fast I pull is dependent on how good the rest of the group is.... ESPECIALLY my healer.... If I'm playing my Inquis, and the tank is pulling when I'm under 3/5 power??? I'll say somthing once.... second time??? I'm outa there.... Especialy since they upgraded critters out there.... I had a guy pullin when I was totally out of power, because of a couple of adds.... and then had the guts to say it was MY fault when the group wiped..... right.... I've also had people complain that I'm pullin too slow, when the only healer in the group turned out to be usin summoned food.... doh.... Fast pulling is fantastic... if the group can support it....

02-06-2005, 04:30 AM	#1
Brist Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group 1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game 2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please

02-06-2005, 06:14 AM	#2
detriment Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	i think i pull at a fairly steady pace, but i have a firm guideline i follow ALLWAYS its better to have slower, slugish pulls and consistant exp, then be pulling at break neck speeds with 3 full bubs of debt, think about that a bit __________________ Bushhybeard Irontank Evil dorf guardian Officer of Kocytus

02-06-2005, 12:08 PM	#5
Raea Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 40	LOL Tuna... I get the same thing... I always try to make it my goal to run the cleric OOP heh... Results? Great XP, lots of drops, and happy groupies... I think it's a playstye thing... if i need combat buffs, i'll buff during the fight... generates agro for me to boot...

02-06-2005, 05:06 PM	#8
zorros Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 474	I dont stop pulling till the healers say stop or someone goes afk. Dont blame the class Blame the player.

02-07-2005, 02:12 AM	#10
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	VonSteinan wrote: Bristaa wrote: I'm finding two very distinct type of Guardians when I group 1) Expert player, went Guardian because he wants a critical role in group performance, may have raid content in mind, fastidious about upgrading and so on. Often a MMO/EQL veteran, encyclopaedic knowledge of the game 2) Slowest tank ever. This type of player seems to have gone for Guardian because it will provide extra safety. They never pull if anyone in the group is a smidgin under full power and then give it another couple of minutes just to be sure. They always ask before pulling. Being asked to pull causes a temporary paralysis effect that prevents the guardian from pulling moving or typing for 2 minutes. Casts 3 self-buffs before any fight, even full group vs solo green I'm slowly going off guardians when I recruit. Previously I've always thought "any tank but ideally a guardian" now I'm starting to question that I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please Hmmm.... so an expert player is one who pulls...and pulls... and pulls.... I see... As someone who plays both a Guardian, and a zerk... and a Bruiser... and an SK... and most importantly... an Inquisitor (and yes all over 20th....) how fast I pull is dependent on how good the rest of the group is.... ESPECIALLY my healer.... If I'm playing my Inquis, and the tank is pulling when I'm under 3/5 power??? I'll say somthing once.... second time??? I'm outa there.... Especialy since they upgraded critters out there.... I had a guy pullin when I was totally out of power, because of a couple of adds.... and then had the guts to say it was MY fault when the group wiped..... right.... I've also had people complain that I'm pullin too slow, when the only healer in the group turned out to be usin summoned food.... doh.... Fast pulling is fantastic... if the group can support it.... Playing to 22 does not an expert healer/tank make. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

02-07-2005, 02:50 AM	#11
Dalthenn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 124	Bristaa wrote:I guess my point is do the players here in general feel that Guardians should be slow pullers? Or is it just people being a bit new? Or perhaps some experienced Guardians could write up some guidance for the others please Hmm, I guess you haven't grouped with me then; maybe you should move to my server and group with me and see if you can keep up with my pulling.By the way, your post is useless to this forum as it seems that you're having a problem with the person behind the Guardian toon - not the guardian class. Maybe try to find another another person that plays a guardian, or perhaps move to my server and see how pull. :p

02-07-2005, 07:07 AM	#12
Grond Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 90	In my humble opinion a guardian is a very hard class to play well, but if you are a # 1 as you say it then you will always be the group leader. We hardly ever get the praise but a good guardian makes for the single best group people can have. A good guardian needs to realize that it isn't just about tanking. You have the whole group to worry about. It's your job to have that text book knowledge, to be able to watch for adds, do a little dps, and hold aggro all at the same time. I found a good way to tell the true skill of a guardian is in the use of his skills. For example at 32 I can easily kill 38 solo mobs, but I have seen other 32 guardians die or barely come out alive while I'm taking the second one. The difference? I have every skill I'm going to use lined up ahead of time, HO's, buff duration, and so on planned from the start. If there is a time I'm not using a skill for 2 seconds it's because I've been stunned. I have seen Guardians out tanked by scout classes. We've become a tech class even more so in this game, and it takes a good guardian to have perfect control over a group and abilities.

02-07-2005, 12:41 PM	#13
Rozz Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 11	Well, i pull slow I get a new group nearly every evening and i start slowly. I have to find the rythm WITH the group, look at their manabars and i ask before bigger pulls if everybody is ready.If i know the groupmates well i can do it faster and without warnings etc. because they know what to do.Speed of pull is not -> Ability of the Guardian ClassSpeed of pull is -> (Personal style/Group performance) x Knowing the group inside out

02-07-2005, 02:29 PM	#14
Demolitio Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 55	For me,I'll start out pulling slow. Making sure everyone is good to go. Once I know how the group works together, I'll step it up a notch.Other reasons for pulling on the slow side:Might be unfamiliar with area. Don't want to pull adds. Don't want to get lost either if it's a long pull.Aside from that. If I know my group can handle the extras, and I'm comfortable, then I'll pull until I think I'll have trouble keeping aggro, or the healer might have trouble keeping up. I also take the power reserves of DPS classes into account. Usually once I have my groove going. It's a free for all. __________________ Cendyen Level 41 Armorer - Retired Level 33 Guardian -Semi-Retired Steamfont Server

02-08-2005, 04:00 AM	#15
Kamce Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 21	I tend to pull fast but will slow down if the group is not comfortable with the speed. I also try to manage the healer's power bar by the type of mob I pull. If we are fighting some tough ^^s and the power bar drops down pretty hard, then I will pull some solo or regular or ^ group mobs in range to keep the experience moving along while the power builds back up for the next ^^ pull.

02-08-2005, 06:41 AM	#16
dpsman Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 191	I 'm a 39 Guardian and it's the group that determine's if i pull slow or fast, in a new group i'll start out slow and then pick up the pace according to the groups ability, i fail to see how the speed of a pull can possibly have anything to do with the guardians ability. I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls.

02-08-2005, 09:11 AM	#17
Axterix Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 183	The goal of the puller is to try and kill the group without letting the group catch on that you are trying to do that. Unless you are in a great group. In that case, it is okay if they figure it out.

02-08-2005, 11:09 AM	#18
kenji Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 718	heh fast or slow really depends on the groupmates and what the puller is thinking, if he consider the group is great, pull will always fast... if he refuse to pull even whole grp full of power..then that must be the player AFK...who dun want to xp fastest as possible? =P

02-08-2005, 11:27 AM	#19
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	dpsman wrote: I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls. Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off. __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

02-08-2005, 11:41 AM	#20
grindell187 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Arsenal wrote: dpsman wrote: I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls. Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off. well for the time that i played eq1, monks pulled cause they could FD without fear of it faling 9/10 times. i know that rangers pulled also cause they could use their ranged attack to pull from distances. but pulling in eq2 is so basic that if you can afford for the scout to go during the last 10-15% of a mobs health and have the tank smack it with a taunt then keep going till the priest says stop. only way i dont suggest using this is if you are pulling alot of mobs in a group..but 1 ^^ or like 2 ^ is easy enough to have the scout go and get them. grindell the monk perma-server

02-08-2005, 09:16 PM	#21
Jol Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	Expert player) The person that feels out the limitation of his group before pulling too many and too fast and getting them all killed like a [FaarNerfed!]. When you play with the same folks all the time, you have a rhythm. If it's a new group, you need to work up to it. Sometimes you need to pull slow if they use up all their power too fast. They will get the hang of it. I'd rather have people tell me to pull faster then to slow down, so I work my way up. __________________ Sneak

02-08-2005, 09:32 PM	#22
Dart Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	grindell187 wrote: Arsenal wrote: dpsman wrote: I had a lvl 70 ranger in eq1 and when i pulled i always had a mob parked in camp,swords never stopped, personally I dont understand why the tank is the puller in eq2, if you want faster pulls it would make sense to have a scout pull, when the Guardian pulls he has to wait till mob is dead to go get another = downtime, so in my opinion an experienced take would set an assist key on the puller and designate someone to keep mobs in camp at all times, if you want fast pulls. Never played EQ, but were you able to get more separation on your pulls so that you didn't get hit? Seems like the puller usually takes a few nasty shots coming in so it is sometimes better to have the tank do it. In general though, I agree that pulling, MT and MA all on one person is a lot and leads to unnecessary downtime for the group while one person is working their tail off non-stop. I imagine that as people become more experienced, they will start splitting these roles up more. It just takes a lot of coordination - and quite honestly, most groups don't have the skill and organization to pull it off. well for the time that i played eq1, monks pulled cause they could FD without fear of it faling 9/10 times. i know that rangers pulled also cause they could use their ranged attack to pull from distances. but pulling in eq2 is so basic that if you can afford for the scout to go during the last 10-15% of a mobs health and have the tank smack it with a taunt then keep going till the priest says stop. only way i dont suggest using this is if you are pulling alot of mobs in a group..but 1 ^^ or like 2 ^ is easy enough to have the scout go and get them. grindell the monk perma-server Actually having a scout pull or any other class works well. Designate a puller, tank stays with group as soon as the puller engages and gets agro, ill start to buff. After the second group buff the mobs will tear right for me, in camp, with all others, then Ill proceed to AE taunt ect.... meaning the puller seldom gets hit. Its not a bad way to pull really) __________________ Phinny - 68th Warlock of Permafrost Thunderfoot - 70th Bruiser Permafrost You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!" -Monty Python's Holy Grail-

02-08-2005, 10:00 PM	#23
dpsman Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 191	OMG Bristaa, I just noticed you are the one that started the huge thread "Why I kick people out of my group" I think maybe the best thing for you to do is 6 box, cause most people are not going to live up to your expectations, if I was the tank and you started complaining about slow pulling I would kick you from the group. This game is not always about mindless powerleveling, sometimes I enjoy getting to know people and chatting as well. I've met people like you in eq1 that freaked out cause i went to pull a new mob when the mob in camp was at 12% instead of 15% and was guilty of waisting .4 seconds of there time. They need to start another server dedicated solely to ULTRA UBER EXPERT PLAYERS, so you can have a place to play and not get upset.

02-09-2005, 10:46 PM	#24
WabbitHunt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	dpsman wrote: OMG Bristaa, I just noticed you are the one that started the huge thread "Why I kick people out of my group" Maybe she's attempting to understand group members/classes and restructure her way of thinking? You could have left off the 'omg' and the 2nd paragraph, and instead used a constructive question. Bristaa - There's a fine line between a good tank and a poor one. In regards to us guardians I've come to the conclusion that a quality guardian: - Gets comfortable with the group by pulling slow at first - Acclimates to the group over time and modifies his/her pulling by what he deems the group able to handle - He/she takes over leadership and is responsible for the outcome of the group. - If someone is AFK it's his responsibility to know this, unless they of course blatantly step away from the console without mentioning it. This can be unnoticeable if the group is pulling at a steady pace and on the next pull the kill is slower or someone dies, or...etc. - If mana is low and/or the group is having difficulty killing what is being pulled it is the guardians responsibility to adjust the group to these characteristics - Pays attention to group chat. If someone is dissatisfied with the current course the group is taking the guardian should make note of this and adjust. If someone wants to try other tactics/areas/etc the guardian should adjust, take stock of the situation and adjust if needed. - Will be aware of his/her surroundings (use different camera modes) and agro any adds that come along the moment that mob "notices" the group - Is well aware that shields are superior to a 2nd dual wielded weapon. If the guardian is tanking and dual wielding then something is wrong and warning lights should go off. That guardian will either be expecting to die a few times that night because they are used to it or else is naive to the fact that shields will not only add on hundreds of AC (Shiny Brass(?) Shield is 455 AC) but offer other bonuses like advanced damage avoidance. - Will always have his gear in the yellow/orange stages of use. - Will use his/her buffs to cover group members. Protective buffs should always be layed upon the weakest members of a group who should not/could not take a hit that a guardian can (i.e. casters for example, although healers are in this category too). - As leader of a group a guardian should be proactive in keeping a group morale high. If someone is bringing the group down then find a rep. Take it upon the guardians reputation that if he/she deems someone in group needs replaced by HORRIBLE actions to either group members or play style and has been warned enough times (use your own discretion here) then get rid of them. A group will live or die through cohesiveness. Pulling slow/quick doesn't really make a guardian. His/her actions do. I don't know the gripe you had in another post and frankly don't care. You had a valid question and (most) people are answering it in a mature way. As a group leader I reserve the right to form the group, and when I form the group unless a group member has a friend/significant other wanting in, then I'll get reps I need. If someone is being a dik then I'll boot them. Just because some dude is in my group doesn't give them the right to be an [FaarNerfed!]. You can probably add to that list up above but those are what I go by. Skills, keeping the group alive at all cost, knowing your character and its abilities/limits, knowing your groups abilities/limits, gear upgraded, skills upgraded, and knowing the mobs you are fighting. Tough class to play - that's why there is a huge population of horrible, crappy guardians out there while a few of us are [FaarNerfed!] good at what we do. -WH

02-10-2005, 12:44 AM	#25
Curati General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 88	Ill just say this about my method of pulling... PULL TIL THE HEALER CRYS!:smileyvery-happy: __________________ Budbud & Pepper

02-10-2005, 07:20 PM	#26
AngelR Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	I liken pulling to dancing: those who are not confident in their abilities tend not to do it because there is a sense of being "under the microscope". It's a role where you feel that people are watching you, waiting for you to screw up (and unfortunately this is more true with pulling than it is with dancing). The conundrum is that, with both, actually doing it is the only way to get better, and to gain more confidence. The last similarity is that they are less sciences than they are arts. Some one can say to you "move your arms like this, and your legs like this", and you can replicate those movements yet you are most certainly not dancing (macarena. It's all about finding the rhythm, feeling the ebb and flow of the music/group, and staying in the pocket. Tuna and others have called it a trance... I refer to it as being "in the zone". (Yeah, cliche, but it fits). When my regular group is in hardcore exp mode, they don't see any chat from me other than my Incoming or HO Trigger macros. They all laugh, saying I'm oblivious to everything else that is going on (they are a rather chatty group of folks). But what they don't know is that I take it as a compliment: if they feel safe enough to be goofing around in chat while we are taking on a 4 or 5 mob group encounter, then I'm doing my job. And we are all having fun and being productive. My point is this: don't expect everyone to be a stellar puller... it is a high exposure/high stress role. Work with them, give them pointers where you can, and be encouraging. If you are in a group leadership role, then employ sound leadership tactics: positive reinforcement coupled with constructive criticism can produce amazing results in little time. If we don't give these people the chance to make their mistakes, and the solutions so they can learn from them, they will never be good pullers. And while the elitist in all of us wants there to be a population of poor players so we can look good, isn't the better alternative to have an educated player base? It makes our class look better, and it makes everyone happier. /em smiles sheepishly and steps off his soapbox. __________________

02-10-2005, 07:27 PM	#27
GEKK Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	Boy do you win the master of the obvious award. this is the dumbest post I have ever see. You say you see 2 types of guardians those that know how to play and those that don't. Well cant you say that about every class? stop trying to incite the Guardian community and go troll elsewhere.

02-10-2005, 11:41 PM	#28
Vulking Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 301	Some of the comments I have about the speed of pulling revolve around the level of group members to the Gaurdian. If I as a guardian am of higher level I pull faster, confident in the pull because I know the con color. When group members are higher, Im not always sure of the pull because we are usally in a tougher area and mobs are orange and red with up arrows to me, I pull slower. Secondly, unfamilarity with an area will slow me down a lot. I dont know where all the mobs are hiding. Third, how I pull either with a taunt, by using a bow, or just hitting the creature. I tend to use a bow if in unfamilar areas or im uncomfortable with the group or im just starting out with a group. I'll taunt with a hit if the mob is easy for me to kill and I will use a taunt when im in a groove or im familar with an area. All of these affect the speed at which I pull, but Im also cautious by nature which tends to slow me down. __________________ Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "I can't shake him!" Red One: "stay on topic.." Red Two: "There too close!.....ahhhhhhghh!!"

02-11-2005, 01:30 AM	#29
Tomanak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 595	Its defintely a personal thing, not a class thing. Some PEOPLE pull faster and better than others. It has absoloutely nothing to do with what class they are playing. The speed at which I pull is dependant on the party. While in pick up groups I tend to keep an eye on the healers power and as long as it appears to be over 2/3rd full, unless asked not to, pull as soon as the mob is down..chest drop or not (which tends to annoy some people). I do this on a guild raid and get a tell from the leader stating that 'I dont know how you do it in pickup groups, but dont do that here.' I base my pulls on what the group wants and if you dont care for the rate at which I pull (and the rest of the group agrees) well then find another tank more suitable and I'll find another group. __________________

02-11-2005, 11:01 PM	#30
WabbitHunt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 29	Tomanak wrote: I do this on a guild raid and get a tell from the leader stating that 'I dont know how you do it in pickup groups, but dont do that here.' That leader is probably either a caster or a ranger...man that tell would annoy me =).