Aggro is totally screwed... - Page 2

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 06:05 AM

I posted because the topic of this thread is wrong, and iv already told pretty much everything on how to hold aggro minus wich abilitys i use and how to time them.

i dont have problems with aggro, its as simple as that. Your spending all this time whinnign about how aggro is screwed instead of figuring out how to play your class beter. If you really wanna know my secret, its learning the recast time on your crap and timing it so u have a taunt based abilitys go off every 5 secs. so that you have stready aggro, once you learn it, its near immposible to lose aggro, and if u do, its easy to get back, because your maintaing high aggro, i also use Dual weild 1.2 sec weapons, its tons beter aggro over 1hs or 2hs, as slow weapons have alot misses. and if your missing, your not generating aggro ontop of your other ablitys, so now ask yourself, does it sound like im exploiting ? or useing smarter tactics to hold aggro. every guardian out there jsut spams every button they have in hopes of keeping aggro and that just dont work.

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 06:12 AM

It ok you can say your sorry now, or you can be hard headed and asume your right and still have problems holding aggro, i dont lose aggro period. people love grouping with me. people tell me everyday they are amazed how well i hold aggro, so all your statments are false. you said your self, you spamed every button you have, thats why u cant hold aggro. because you spam.

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 06:16 AM

Ok so you are casting a taunt every 5 seconds for steady aggro and not losing mana. You are an idiot.

I've got a fast wep (I know about that) and time my abilities fine (wow thats real hard to do - one is grey so i click a different one - lol). I'm constantly using aggro based skills. Getting and holding aggro is NOT the issue. Go back and read my post. When somebody somehow aggros something on accident - ie a chanter fails a mez (this is HUGE aggro) and a mob latches on them, or a bard starts a song while a mob is incoming and passes me in aggro before I've landed my 2nd spell, etc etc etc. it is damned near impossible most of the time to regain aggro.

Having 2 1.2 sec delay weps, HTL, and spamming abilities as fast as humanly possible won't regain that lost aggro. You aren't some kind of super master at this game because this problem is universal. The hatelist has issues and it is well known.

I'll say it yet again. Holding aggro in this game is frustrating because 99.99% of the time it is so easy it is boring and then .01% of the time it is basically not possible. Whats the fun or skill in that? I'd take a system that is more difficult - ie, the hate list varies constantly and you get ping ponging and can tell whats going on... as it is now its just lame..

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 06:19 AM

I'm constantly getting told how great a tank I am also. I almost never lose aggro. The incredibly rare time that the MT loses aggro tho, it is near impossible to regain it. Something is broken there and I've spoken to many tanks on it. Look at the scenario I posted! The MT level 33 guardian lost aggro, used Rescue and didn't get aggro but me, a level 30, used rescue while at the bottom of the hate list and gained it.. ??

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 06:24 AM

Here is my defination of spam in the context I used it:

1. I have aggro on an encounter -

2. An ally somehow gains aggro by doing something stupid - ie breaking a mez or something

3. I try to regain aggro so I "spam" - ie cast taunts repeatedly

*** I'm not just mashing the buttons completely randomly, there is order to it

ie, Anger, Shouttting Cry, Taunting Challenge, Buff, debuff attack, stun, dot attack, repeat as they refresh

there is nothing wrong with that. I could do that ALL DAY and even throw in a rescue and that mob will not turn. This is the issue I'm talking about. Mobs DONT turn when they latch on. I don't know why but it doesn't have to do with my play ability or style as I've seen it happen to other tanks and spoken to lots of tanks about it. Doesn't matter what I do because I've tried all kinds of different variations - sometimes it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to regain hate. Thats just wrong.

Xiomicr · 12-18-2004, 06:28 AM

Bah,

the fanboys haven't got the wherewithal to see it sometimes...

ooh boy... I can block and sentinal...

but if rescue fails... and it does... and the spit hits the fan... which it does...

if you are 2nd on the hate list and your groupmate is going down... and your full health... you're not going to be needing that health until he is dead...

the gappage is too wide between the hatelist placeholders I'm telling ya... :smileyhappy:

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 06:31 AM

see your still wrong iv already stated i dont use taunt, the level 1 ability, no i cycle 4 other abilitys and mix diff things in, to where i have TAUNT BASED ABILITYS THAT ARE LOW POWER going off every 5 secs.

here i tell you what [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] here is the easy version, its called taunting blow, and taunting chalange, both are 10 sec recast, use a range taunt first, supress/ anger and thats the only time u have to use it, then press taunting chanlenge, wait 5 secs, press taunting blow, when its done, tauntign chal will be back up, repeat. your hten taunting every 5 secs with that easy version, with beter skill u can mix in other stuff. if u jsut spam both, your only taunting every 10 secs, time all your abilitys that generate aggro the best so that the intire fight you alwase have a taunt going off every 5 secs, its that simple, i dont care what u say, your wrong, you simpley wont lose aggro.

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 06:53 AM

you aren't addressing any point I made in my first post or have made since. Aggro is way too easy to hold, have you have illustrated. it is the .01% chance that somebody gets aggro and YES it happens to all us tanks from time to time that it is impossible to get aggro back. Your "secret method" doesn't do jack there, sorry.

And yes, every tank and thier mother knows to use their tuanting abilities every few seconds. Wow genious.... lol

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 07:06 AM

wrong i get aggro back just fine, if it does happen, 99.9 i can throw one taunt and i will get it back, if not, ill toss 2 protection spells on them, and hit a few specials. and in the rare case that dont work, in battle grp buffs, yet im generating enougf hate now to where my tactics alow me to regain aggro very easly. becase the initire tiem im still stickign my system of timeing. so i still cant agree with your orginal post becase i myself can regain aggro with ease, maybe at lower lvs this is harder i dont know, as i just started doign this around lv 35, at 37 now for the last 2 levels it has been a flawless system for me

Kc · 12-18-2004, 07:11 AM

I am with everyone on this when it's said holding aggro is not a huge issue, but it's when you loose aggro that IS the issue. Then again we maybe cutting our own throats here because the same "hosed" aggro code maybe the reason we can keep aggro so well in the 1st place. /shrug

Also, using buffs during combat is good aggro generation. Maybe using a lower lvl buff gives a crazy amount of aggro with no power cost, but again all I use is Adept 1 Suppress , and my AE taunt and they are on my like glue.

I would like to test buff aggro generation. When I get around to it I will post my results.

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 07:27 AM

Dregan you aren't making a lot of sense. Your "flawless system" is common sense. Dur, I hit a button every 5 seconds to hold aggro. Yeah it works the vast majority of the time. I have no idea how you can possibly regain aggro easily because you don't do anything differently than I do. I'm level 30 and a 33 guardian was having the same problem. Somebody would get aggro because something stupid happens (not tanks fault at all) and then he simply could not get the mob off.

You are the one being hard headed here...

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 07:40 AM

Using supress and your AE taunt alone is not enougf hate generation, thats why when you lose it, your not able to get aggro back

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 07:47 AM

lol hit a butto nevery 5 sec, thats not what i do, u cant hit a taunt that has 30 sec recast every 5 secs. your the one with the problem not me. i can say it any more clear you set it up so u have one of your taunts landing every 5 secs the intire fight, u can not do this by spaming, if your mashing buttons your not maintaing a constant aggro generation you may go 10 or 20 secs and not taunt at all,

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 07:50 AM

?

I dont even have surpress yet, but here's what I generally do:

pull with Anger then shoutting cry then HTL then bury (if 4+ mobs, no adds around, and no chanter), then taunting challenge, other taunt ability (forget name) then I self/group buff, then I hit my debuff attacks, dot attacks, stun attacks, then repeat the whole list.

I do them with a good spacing and I'm not clicking as fast as I can but like you said, giving enough to keep steady aggro.

I don't lose aggro often. It is VERY rare. I can't express this enough. With the above system getting and keeping aggro is simple and in my oppinion almost a joke. Hell, sometimes only an Anger, Shoutting Cry, and HTL is enough even...

You are trying to tell me that in 37 levels you never once lost aggro? Bullsh*t. It happens. Sometimes it happens and usually even if the mob pounds the ranger into the floor the healer can keep up til fight is over and its not a big deal. But WHY can't we get the aggro back? Its a really simple problem and its common. The only people I hear that don't have this problem is Zerkers because they can litterally tear aggro off anybody with Bloodlust. We don't have that kind of super aggro generation at the moment so we sometimes have to sit and watch while our ally gets pounded into oblivion and hope that our guard spells block enough dmg and our healers don't go oop because there is simply NO WAY to get that mob to turn. Its a fact and I don't see what you are arguing about.

The same issue that makes aggro holding for the MT so easy is what makes getting aggro back in these situations so hard. Something is wrong with the hatelist - IE too much space between spots or certain actions generate obscene levels of hate to the point where it is simply not possible to surpass the other person even with unlimited power and time.

I dont even see what you can say to counter this. Its so glaringly obvious to everybody but yourself..

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 07:51 AM

Ok end of conversation you are obviously quite [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I don't spam them as fast as I can and I don't just use Anger every 30 seconds. You are goddamned [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and I'm tired of even talking to you. Jesus Christ.

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 09:44 AM

not my fault your idiot who thinks he knows everything. personaly i really dont care what u do, im going to go on and be able hold and regain aggro just fine while you will sit hear and swear agro is broken and impossible to get back, your fault not mine

Dreg · 12-18-2004, 09:44 AM

not my fault your idiot who thinks he knows everything. personaly i really dont care what u do, im going to go on and be able hold and regain aggro just fine while you will lsit hear and swear agro is broken and impossible to get back, your fault not mine

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 11:48 AM

LOL you still have YET to tell me how you get agro back when somebody else gets it. You have told me plenty of times how you maintain steady aggro - same as me (and every other tank in the game) if you haven't figured it out.

sigh...

GenesisForgot · 12-18-2004, 11:51 AM

"If a party member gets agro, generally it is VERY hard to get it back. You will blow 20% of your power to do so. Just make sure the party knows that they dont need to spam heal you and NEVER buff during a fight (bards, re-casting priest conc buffs, n such). "

I guess a level 47 guardian is full of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] too??

Kc · 12-18-2004, 11:53 AM

Well, AE taunt and Suppress are not the only things I cast, but to lock the fight to me that is what I start out with. I ussualy follow up with a buff like battle cry.

What really needs to be done is more testing, it would be nice to see the exact hate numbers a la a "lucy" type database, but we will have to wait on that.

In EQ Live hate devalues during a fight. For example, if you start out giving say 1000 hate at the start of a fight, and nothing else, by the end it would be 500. I don't know the exact degrading function but you get the idea. This also can be tested.

Also, in EQ Live more damage didnt always equal more hate. For example, a critical gave the same hate as a non-crit (critical = 2x dmg).

I am not saying EQ2 is exactly like EQL, but it might give us some insight on what to look for. Hopefully, some seasoned EQL warrior can chime in to give us their thoughts.

Thinking outload: I would speculate there is a bonus to be in the number one hate position, and once you loose the number one slot you loose that bonus thus driving the gap even further. For example:

Start of fight

Guardian Hate position 1 500(taunts) + 2000(bonus) = 3000 hate

Crazy Wiztard hate position 2 = 500 hate

Midfight

Guardian Hate position 1 250(degraded taunts) + 500(damage) + 3000(bonus) = 3750 hate

Crazy Wiztard = 3750 hate

Crazy Wiztard gets aggro

Guardian Hate position 1 250(degraded taunts) + 500(taunts) = 750 hate

Crazy Wiztard hate position 2 = 3750 (spells) + 3000(bonus) = 6750 hate

vaalen · 12-18-2004, 12:07 PM

41 guardian here. Agro is broken, priod.

Here is the deal: You don't have to do some secret thing or some strange combo of skills to keep agro. It should be doable with a very regular use of skills like other tank classes. SO: agro is broken, get over it.

bye

God_of_Avalon · 12-18-2004, 01:58 PM

GenesisForgoten, I feel very sorry for you. You post an easy to read, very understandable, and very valid point and you get the most idiotic responses I have ever read.

This seems to happen to you often. I have been in your shoes a few times myself. Don't you get sick of the idiots who say "well you just need to learn how to play your class" or "everything is just fine" ?

Cassusdy · 12-19-2004, 02:14 AM

Anyone who says there is NOT a problem with the taunt systme is fooling themselves. When I first began I thought it was just me, but after reading these posts it confirmed for me that indeed the hate list is broken in some way. I too have little problem keeping hate. But there is that small time where I lose hate for an instant and it is impossible to get back!! I can spam every taunt as the person getting beat down yells "taunt it you fool!" thinking I'm not taunting....and all I can do is sweat and think "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I clearly have priduced more hate yet it stays on this other group member".

Fact is, either taunt is broken, or the hate system is slightly flawed. I think the 99 guardians out of a 100 here saying the same thing prove that this is a problem. That 1 other that says its not a problem is just trying to look uber.

EQ2Shil · 12-19-2004, 05:09 AM

GenesisForgoten wrote:

And yes, mobs in Nektulos are bugged all over. Beavers flee when their first buddy dies. Owlbears charge any target they want when their first buddy dies. Its just stupid to even fight there for xp..

I dont think these are actually bugs, to me it seems to be more of a feature in the AI of those mobs. I have encountered mobs in other zones with these same AI traits.

The beavers fleeing isnt a problem, just use ranged to finish them off, yes it is slightly annoying but they dont do it most of the time.

The owlbear AI is pretty easy to deal with as well, just brief the group to hold off using combat arts and turn auto-attack off while you regain agro, AE taunt plus a couple of buffs is normally enough to get them back on you. The only time I have problem regaining agro is if the person the owlbear is on continues to attack, in which case it takes an extra 4 or 5 single taunts to regain.

Personally I find our taunting ability is just fine, the only time it is an issue is if you have other players who dont realise how the hate works in the game. Their needs to be a large element of teamwork required to keep agro on the Guardian or it will get very dull for us very quickly.

Zazz · 12-20-2004, 08:25 AM

EQ2Shilak wrote:

I dont think these are actually bugs, to me it seems to be more of a feature in the AI of those mobs. I have encountered mobs in other zones with these same AI traits.

The beavers fleeing isnt a problem, just use ranged to finish them off, yes it is slightly annoying but they dont do it most of the time.

I completely agree. Some mobs in eq1 did the same thing as the beavers. They would flee and it wasn't a bug but rather their AI.

As far as the owlbears go, I haven't fought them so I can't say whether they are bugged. It sounds like they could be bugged, but its also possible that they are just more annoying to deal with.

I also agree with EQ2Shilak that the Guardian ability to taunt and the aggro system as a whole is NOT broken. It isn't prefect by any means but it is working as intended. It is no accident that getting aggro back once you've lost it is hard. That is why our protection skills make us better tanks than Zerkers, for example. If the Zerker lose aggro, the person that gain it may very well be in trouble. With a guardian as the MT, you have further opitions (ally, sentinal, etc.). Be sure to use them if you aren't.

I think it is important to keep in mind two things:

1) That eq2 is a hard game. The PvE is much more in depth than in other games (eg. WoW or DAoC) because PvE is eq's specialty much like PvP is DAoC specialty. Therefore solutions to problems like keeping aggro or killing group-con mobs are intended to difficult. That is why people are having troulbe with it. For example, beating the colts in football is hard because they are a good team, not because the rules of football are broken. In other words, things will go wrong. Its okay, just learn from it.

2) That keeping aggro is a group effort and as a members of a group it is also their job to watch their hate production as well as to proform their abilities. Doing damage isn't everything

Gra · 12-20-2004, 02:11 PM

If taunting challenge and blow were his secret then i want compensation for reading all that rubbish.....

I rarely have a problem with aggro on single mob encounters but taunting groups are often a chore, likely mainly due to everyone wanting to fight red con mobs. :smileywink: And no i dont use dualwield i dont wanna tank like papaerbag killing myself with ripostes and intentionaly mitigating less than what i should, thank you this isnt EQ1.

I agree that if we loose aggro its hard to regain, might be a bug might be intentional to so to say up the stakes of the game.

Rescue, that ability is just totaly bugged. It dont work! Why dont it work? Cause when used it can generalte anything from 1 hate to infinity but if its on any player thats not afk that player WILL generate more hate. The skill HAS to get a set offset of hate above the player currently highest on the hateladder else its just not worth that 30min recycle.

Heck just add a normal taunt to the effect and it might work great but as it is the skill has little use. The skill is intended to be a last resort of physicaly wrenching the mbo from the player saving him. It should DO THAT!

On a totaly diffrent topic, why do we get all these 2min duration targeted buffs? We get a TON of buffs that are so short duration that they are nothing but useless in a constant fight environment!

Erronn · 12-21-2004, 04:42 AM

Grahn wrote:

On a totaly diffrent topic, why do we get all these 2min duration targeted buffs? We get a TON of buffs that are so short duration that they are nothing but useless in a constant fight environment!

I'm not sure what the developers had in mind, but I just use them for their hate generation, really. The actual "buff" effect seems worthless to me...

zzzzzz75 · 12-21-2004, 11:31 PM

Curiously, with regards to aggro holding how upgraded are most people's taunts?

Been testing and so far not enough info to be sure of the results (and only level 21 atm) but headed out with two groups last couple days fighting same mob groups white/ blue no arrows up to two. First group chain pulled for 6 straight hours and didnt lose aggro a single time. Second group, same mobs and location yet consistantly lost aggro to the healer. Starting chain was shout, anger, htl then varied from there, and informed group to wait for chain to finish before casting, yet still lost aggro, having to cancel HTL and chase the healer around.

Only difference from these two groups was the healers spells were all adept 1 or better. Next night on an alt was lucky enough to pick up a lapis lazuli and quickly put together a shout adept 3. Sent tell to the same healer, and am still unsure as only had about an hour of time for two of us to group together, yet not once lost aggro from the groups we were pulling. With adept 1s for gaurdians not dropping as frequently and more casters upgrading their skills for damage perhaps has a larger influence on aggro control?

Fina · 12-22-2004, 03:09 PM

Yes I am a level 30 guardian and it pisses me off every time a person in my group gets aggro. The reason is because I use like 20 taunts and can't pull it off of them for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Take the Rescue taunt ability for example. You think a 30 minute recast ability would pull aggro off someones right? Wrong. It is broken. Enough said.

12-18-2004, 01:58 PM	#52
God_of_Avalon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 83	GenesisForgoten, I feel very sorry for you. You post an easy to read, very understandable, and very valid point and you get the most idiotic responses I have ever read. This seems to happen to you often. I have been in your shoes a few times myself. Don't you get sick of the idiots who say "well you just need to learn how to play your class" or "everything is just fine" ? __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enchanters, we are the peg leg for handicaped groups, lol.

12-19-2004, 05:09 AM	#54
EQ2Shil Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	GenesisForgoten wrote: And yes, mobs in Nektulos are bugged all over. Beavers flee when their first buddy dies. Owlbears charge any target they want when their first buddy dies. Its just stupid to even fight there for xp.. I dont think these are actually bugs, to me it seems to be more of a feature in the AI of those mobs. I have encountered mobs in other zones with these same AI traits. The beavers fleeing isnt a problem, just use ranged to finish them off, yes it is slightly annoying but they dont do it most of the time. The owlbear AI is pretty easy to deal with as well, just brief the group to hold off using combat arts and turn auto-attack off while you regain agro, AE taunt plus a couple of buffs is normally enough to get them back on you. The only time I have problem regaining agro is if the person the owlbear is on continues to attack, in which case it takes an extra 4 or 5 single taunts to regain. Personally I find our taunting ability is just fine, the only time it is an issue is if you have other players who dont realise how the hate works in the game. Their needs to be a large element of teamwork required to keep agro on the Guardian or it will get very dull for us very quickly. __________________ Shilak Sylvanblade Wood Elf Guardian & Armourer on Innothule server Citizen of Freeport and loyal subject of Lucan D'lere

12-20-2004, 08:25 AM	#55
Zazz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	EQ2Shilak wrote: I dont think these are actually bugs, to me it seems to be more of a feature in the AI of those mobs. I have encountered mobs in other zones with these same AI traits. The beavers fleeing isnt a problem, just use ranged to finish them off, yes it is slightly annoying but they dont do it most of the time. I completely agree. Some mobs in eq1 did the same thing as the beavers. They would flee and it wasn't a bug but rather their AI. As far as the owlbears go, I haven't fought them so I can't say whether they are bugged. It sounds like they could be bugged, but its also possible that they are just more annoying to deal with. I also agree with EQ2Shilak that the Guardian ability to taunt and the aggro system as a whole is NOT broken. It isn't prefect by any means but it is working as intended. It is no accident that getting aggro back once you've lost it is hard. That is why our protection skills make us better tanks than Zerkers, for example. If the Zerker lose aggro, the person that gain it may very well be in trouble. With a guardian as the MT, you have further opitions (ally, sentinal, etc.). Be sure to use them if you aren't. I think it is important to keep in mind two things: 1) That eq2 is a hard game. The PvE is much more in depth than in other games (eg. WoW or DAoC) because PvE is eq's specialty much like PvP is DAoC specialty. Therefore solutions to problems like keeping aggro or killing group-con mobs are intended to difficult. That is why people are having troulbe with it. For example, beating the colts in football is hard because they are a good team, not because the rules of football are broken. In other words, things will go wrong. Its okay, just learn from it. 2) That keeping aggro is a group effort and as a members of a group it is also their job to watch their hate production as well as to proform their abilities. Doing damage isn't everything

12-20-2004, 02:11 PM	#56
Gra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	If taunting challenge and blow were his secret then i want compensation for reading all that rubbish..... I rarely have a problem with aggro on single mob encounters but taunting groups are often a chore, likely mainly due to everyone wanting to fight red con mobs. :smileywink: And no i dont use dualwield i dont wanna tank like papaerbag killing myself with ripostes and intentionaly mitigating less than what i should, thank you this isnt EQ1. I agree that if we loose aggro its hard to regain, might be a bug might be intentional to so to say up the stakes of the game. Rescue, that ability is just totaly bugged. It dont work! Why dont it work? Cause when used it can generalte anything from 1 hate to infinity but if its on any player thats not afk that player WILL generate more hate. The skill HAS to get a set offset of hate above the player currently highest on the hateladder else its just not worth that 30min recycle. Heck just add a normal taunt to the effect and it might work great but as it is the skill has little use. The skill is intended to be a last resort of physicaly wrenching the mbo from the player saving him. It should DO THAT! On a totaly diffrent topic, why do we get all these 2min duration targeted buffs? We get a TON of buffs that are so short duration that they are nothing but useless in a constant fight environment! __________________ Bran, lvl 43 Guardian on RunnyEye(STILL!!!!!) -Radiance-

12-21-2004, 04:42 AM	#57
Erronn Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Grahn wrote: On a totaly diffrent topic, why do we get all these 2min duration targeted buffs? We get a TON of buffs that are so short duration that they are nothing but useless in a constant fight environment! I'm not sure what the developers had in mind, but I just use them for their hate generation, really. The actual "buff" effect seems worthless to me... __________________

12-18-2004, 06:05 AM	#31
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	I posted because the topic of this thread is wrong, and iv already told pretty much everything on how to hold aggro minus wich abilitys i use and how to time them. i dont have problems with aggro, its as simple as that. Your spending all this time whinnign about how aggro is screwed instead of figuring out how to play your class beter. If you really wanna know my secret, its learning the recast time on your crap and timing it so u have a taunt based abilitys go off every 5 secs. so that you have stready aggro, once you learn it, its near immposible to lose aggro, and if u do, its easy to get back, because your maintaing high aggro, i also use Dual weild 1.2 sec weapons, its tons beter aggro over 1hs or 2hs, as slow weapons have alot misses. and if your missing, your not generating aggro ontop of your other ablitys, so now ask yourself, does it sound like im exploiting ? or useing smarter tactics to hold aggro. every guardian out there jsut spams every button they have in hopes of keeping aggro and that just dont work.

12-18-2004, 06:12 AM	#32
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	It ok you can say your sorry now, or you can be hard headed and asume your right and still have problems holding aggro, i dont lose aggro period. people love grouping with me. people tell me everyday they are amazed how well i hold aggro, so all your statments are false. you said your self, you spamed every button you have, thats why u cant hold aggro. because you spam.

12-18-2004, 06:16 AM	#33
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	Ok so you are casting a taunt every 5 seconds for steady aggro and not losing mana. You are an idiot. I've got a fast wep (I know about that) and time my abilities fine (wow thats real hard to do - one is grey so i click a different one - lol). I'm constantly using aggro based skills. Getting and holding aggro is NOT the issue. Go back and read my post. When somebody somehow aggros something on accident - ie a chanter fails a mez (this is HUGE aggro) and a mob latches on them, or a bard starts a song while a mob is incoming and passes me in aggro before I've landed my 2nd spell, etc etc etc. it is damned near impossible most of the time to regain aggro. Having 2 1.2 sec delay weps, HTL, and spamming abilities as fast as humanly possible won't regain that lost aggro. You aren't some kind of super master at this game because this problem is universal. The hatelist has issues and it is well known. I'll say it yet again. Holding aggro in this game is frustrating because 99.99% of the time it is so easy it is boring and then .01% of the time it is basically not possible. Whats the fun or skill in that? I'd take a system that is more difficult - ie, the hate list varies constantly and you get ping ponging and can tell whats going on... as it is now its just lame..

12-18-2004, 06:19 AM	#34
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	I'm constantly getting told how great a tank I am also. I almost never lose aggro. The incredibly rare time that the MT loses aggro tho, it is near impossible to regain it. Something is broken there and I've spoken to many tanks on it. Look at the scenario I posted! The MT level 33 guardian lost aggro, used Rescue and didn't get aggro but me, a level 30, used rescue while at the bottom of the hate list and gained it.. ??

12-18-2004, 06:24 AM	#35
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	Here is my defination of spam in the context I used it: 1. I have aggro on an encounter - 2. An ally somehow gains aggro by doing something stupid - ie breaking a mez or something 3. I try to regain aggro so I "spam" - ie cast taunts repeatedly *** I'm not just mashing the buttons completely randomly, there is order to it ie, Anger, Shouttting Cry, Taunting Challenge, Buff, debuff attack, stun, dot attack, repeat as they refresh there is nothing wrong with that. I could do that ALL DAY and even throw in a rescue and that mob will not turn. This is the issue I'm talking about. Mobs DONT turn when they latch on. I don't know why but it doesn't have to do with my play ability or style as I've seen it happen to other tanks and spoken to lots of tanks about it. Doesn't matter what I do because I've tried all kinds of different variations - sometimes it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to regain hate. Thats just wrong.

12-18-2004, 06:28 AM	#36
Xiomicr Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 33	Bah, the fanboys haven't got the wherewithal to see it sometimes... ooh boy... I can block and sentinal... but if rescue fails... and it does... and the spit hits the fan... which it does... if you are 2nd on the hate list and your groupmate is going down... and your full health... you're not going to be needing that health until he is dead... the gappage is too wide between the hatelist placeholders I'm telling ya... :smileyhappy:

12-18-2004, 06:31 AM	#37
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	see your still wrong iv already stated i dont use taunt, the level 1 ability, no i cycle 4 other abilitys and mix diff things in, to where i have TAUNT BASED ABILITYS THAT ARE LOW POWER going off every 5 secs. here i tell you what [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] here is the easy version, its called taunting blow, and taunting chalange, both are 10 sec recast, use a range taunt first, supress/ anger and thats the only time u have to use it, then press taunting chanlenge, wait 5 secs, press taunting blow, when its done, tauntign chal will be back up, repeat. your hten taunting every 5 secs with that easy version, with beter skill u can mix in other stuff. if u jsut spam both, your only taunting every 10 secs, time all your abilitys that generate aggro the best so that the intire fight you alwase have a taunt going off every 5 secs, its that simple, i dont care what u say, your wrong, you simpley wont lose aggro.

12-18-2004, 06:53 AM	#38
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	you aren't addressing any point I made in my first post or have made since. Aggro is way too easy to hold, have you have illustrated. it is the .01% chance that somebody gets aggro and YES it happens to all us tanks from time to time that it is impossible to get aggro back. Your "secret method" doesn't do jack there, sorry. And yes, every tank and thier mother knows to use their tuanting abilities every few seconds. Wow genious.... lol

12-18-2004, 07:06 AM	#39
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	wrong i get aggro back just fine, if it does happen, 99.9 i can throw one taunt and i will get it back, if not, ill toss 2 protection spells on them, and hit a few specials. and in the rare case that dont work, in battle grp buffs, yet im generating enougf hate now to where my tactics alow me to regain aggro very easly. becase the initire tiem im still stickign my system of timeing. so i still cant agree with your orginal post becase i myself can regain aggro with ease, maybe at lower lvs this is harder i dont know, as i just started doign this around lv 35, at 37 now for the last 2 levels it has been a flawless system for me

12-18-2004, 07:11 AM	#40
Kc General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	I am with everyone on this when it's said holding aggro is not a huge issue, but it's when you loose aggro that IS the issue. Then again we maybe cutting our own throats here because the same "hosed" aggro code maybe the reason we can keep aggro so well in the 1st place. /shrug Also, using buffs during combat is good aggro generation. Maybe using a lower lvl buff gives a crazy amount of aggro with no power cost, but again all I use is Adept 1 Suppress , and my AE taunt and they are on my like glue. I would like to test buff aggro generation. When I get around to it I will post my results.

12-18-2004, 07:27 AM	#41
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	Dregan you aren't making a lot of sense. Your "flawless system" is common sense. Dur, I hit a button every 5 seconds to hold aggro. Yeah it works the vast majority of the time. I have no idea how you can possibly regain aggro easily because you don't do anything differently than I do. I'm level 30 and a 33 guardian was having the same problem. Somebody would get aggro because something stupid happens (not tanks fault at all) and then he simply could not get the mob off. You are the one being hard headed here...

12-18-2004, 07:40 AM	#42
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	Using supress and your AE taunt alone is not enougf hate generation, thats why when you lose it, your not able to get aggro back

12-18-2004, 07:47 AM	#43
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	lol hit a butto nevery 5 sec, thats not what i do, u cant hit a taunt that has 30 sec recast every 5 secs. your the one with the problem not me. i can say it any more clear you set it up so u have one of your taunts landing every 5 secs the intire fight, u can not do this by spaming, if your mashing buttons your not maintaing a constant aggro generation you may go 10 or 20 secs and not taunt at all,

12-18-2004, 07:50 AM	#44
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	? I dont even have surpress yet, but here's what I generally do: pull with Anger then shoutting cry then HTL then bury (if 4+ mobs, no adds around, and no chanter), then taunting challenge, other taunt ability (forget name) then I self/group buff, then I hit my debuff attacks, dot attacks, stun attacks, then repeat the whole list. I do them with a good spacing and I'm not clicking as fast as I can but like you said, giving enough to keep steady aggro. I don't lose aggro often. It is VERY rare. I can't express this enough. With the above system getting and keeping aggro is simple and in my oppinion almost a joke. Hell, sometimes only an Anger, Shoutting Cry, and HTL is enough even... You are trying to tell me that in 37 levels you never once lost aggro? Bullsh*t. It happens. Sometimes it happens and usually even if the mob pounds the ranger into the floor the healer can keep up til fight is over and its not a big deal. But WHY can't we get the aggro back? Its a really simple problem and its common. The only people I hear that don't have this problem is Zerkers because they can litterally tear aggro off anybody with Bloodlust. We don't have that kind of super aggro generation at the moment so we sometimes have to sit and watch while our ally gets pounded into oblivion and hope that our guard spells block enough dmg and our healers don't go oop because there is simply NO WAY to get that mob to turn. Its a fact and I don't see what you are arguing about. The same issue that makes aggro holding for the MT so easy is what makes getting aggro back in these situations so hard. Something is wrong with the hatelist - IE too much space between spots or certain actions generate obscene levels of hate to the point where it is simply not possible to surpass the other person even with unlimited power and time. I dont even see what you can say to counter this. Its so glaringly obvious to everybody but yourself..

12-18-2004, 07:51 AM	#45
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	Ok end of conversation you are obviously quite [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I don't spam them as fast as I can and I don't just use Anger every 30 seconds. You are goddamned [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and I'm tired of even talking to you. Jesus Christ.

12-18-2004, 09:44 AM	#46
Dreg Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 32	not my fault your idiot who thinks he knows everything. personaly i really dont care what u do, im going to go on and be able hold and regain aggro just fine while you will sit hear and swear agro is broken and impossible to get back, your fault not mine

12-18-2004, 11:48 AM	#48
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	LOL you still have YET to tell me how you get agro back when somebody else gets it. You have told me plenty of times how you maintain steady aggro - same as me (and every other tank in the game) if you haven't figured it out. sigh...

12-18-2004, 11:51 AM	#49
GenesisForgot Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 223	"If a party member gets agro, generally it is VERY hard to get it back. You will blow 20% of your power to do so. Just make sure the party knows that they dont need to spam heal you and NEVER buff during a fight (bards, re-casting priest conc buffs, n such). " I guess a level 47 guardian is full of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] too??

12-18-2004, 11:53 AM	#50
Kc General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	Well, AE taunt and Suppress are not the only things I cast, but to lock the fight to me that is what I start out with. I ussualy follow up with a buff like battle cry. What really needs to be done is more testing, it would be nice to see the exact hate numbers a la a "lucy" type database, but we will have to wait on that. In EQ Live hate devalues during a fight. For example, if you start out giving say 1000 hate at the start of a fight, and nothing else, by the end it would be 500. I don't know the exact degrading function but you get the idea. This also can be tested. Also, in EQ Live more damage didnt always equal more hate. For example, a critical gave the same hate as a non-crit (critical = 2x dmg). I am not saying EQ2 is exactly like EQL, but it might give us some insight on what to look for. Hopefully, some seasoned EQL warrior can chime in to give us their thoughts. Thinking outload: I would speculate there is a bonus to be in the number one hate position, and once you loose the number one slot you loose that bonus thus driving the gap even further. For example: Start of fight Guardian Hate position 1 500(taunts) + 2000(bonus) = 3000 hate Crazy Wiztard hate position 2 = 500 hate Midfight Guardian Hate position 1 250(degraded taunts) + 500(damage) + 3000(bonus) = 3750 hate Crazy Wiztard = 3750 hate Crazy Wiztard gets aggro Guardian Hate position 1 250(degraded taunts) + 500(taunts) = 750 hate Crazy Wiztard hate position 2 = 3750 (spells) + 3000(bonus) = 6750 hate

12-18-2004, 12:07 PM	#51
vaalen General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 30	41 guardian here. Agro is broken, priod. Here is the deal: You don't have to do some secret thing or some strange combo of skills to keep agro. It should be doable with a very regular use of skills like other tank classes. SO: agro is broken, get over it. bye

12-19-2004, 02:14 AM	#53
Cassusdy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 50	Anyone who says there is NOT a problem with the taunt systme is fooling themselves. When I first began I thought it was just me, but after reading these posts it confirmed for me that indeed the hate list is broken in some way. I too have little problem keeping hate. But there is that small time where I lose hate for an instant and it is impossible to get back!! I can spam every taunt as the person getting beat down yells "taunt it you fool!" thinking I'm not taunting....and all I can do is sweat and think "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I clearly have priduced more hate yet it stays on this other group member". Fact is, either taunt is broken, or the hate system is slightly flawed. I think the 99 guardians out of a 100 here saying the same thing prove that this is a problem. That 1 other that says its not a problem is just trying to look uber.

12-21-2004, 11:31 PM	#58
zzzzzz75 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	Curiously, with regards to aggro holding how upgraded are most people's taunts? Been testing and so far not enough info to be sure of the results (and only level 21 atm) but headed out with two groups last couple days fighting same mob groups white/ blue no arrows up to two. First group chain pulled for 6 straight hours and didnt lose aggro a single time. Second group, same mobs and location yet consistantly lost aggro to the healer. Starting chain was shout, anger, htl then varied from there, and informed group to wait for chain to finish before casting, yet still lost aggro, having to cancel HTL and chase the healer around. Only difference from these two groups was the healers spells were all adept 1 or better. Next night on an alt was lucky enough to pick up a lapis lazuli and quickly put together a shout adept 3. Sent tell to the same healer, and am still unsure as only had about an hour of time for two of us to group together, yet not once lost aggro from the groups we were pulling. With adept 1s for gaurdians not dropping as frequently and more casters upgrading their skills for damage perhaps has a larger influence on aggro control?

12-22-2004, 03:09 PM	#59
Fina Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8	Yes I am a level 30 guardian and it pisses me off every time a person in my group gets aggro. The reason is because I use like 20 taunts and can't pull it off of them for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Take the Rescue taunt ability for example. You think a 30 minute recast ability would pull aggro off someones right? Wrong. It is broken. Enough said.